Support NeoGAF

[manfestival]

can you guys stop?

 

[DrPizza]

I don't mean specifically at the start, but just giving heroes more gold faster in general. I wouldn't mind a faster paced slightly more snowbally meta.

I think what I'd like is to have some way of ending the current phenomenon of one or two farmed carries, while supports are still dirt poor. This is particularly acute with things like a support Venge, Mirana, or Lina, or even the FOTM str Morphling. These are heroes that can be legitimate right click cores, given farm, but if they've had a non-farming position for the first 30 minutes of the game, it's pretty hard for them to catch up. What I want is a way for them to catch up, without making carries simply come online faster.

 

[DrPizza]

Rune spawns at +0:15 or something, with darkness from spawn til 0:00 (not rune spawn before game starts)

Changing the timing is silly, the 0:00 rune fights are much more exciting than "who blocks best". But it should be night before the horn blows. It'd make those fights even better, due to the limited vision.

 

[Deleted member 77995]

I haven't actually seen that many good rune fights though. I had hoped it would bring back level 1 fights like Navi in TI2, but most of the time it's just 3 or 4 people bullying 1 person off the rune while the same happens on the other side.

I think an interesting change would be to have only one rune spawn at 0, but it's always the top rune or something. Make people actually fight for it.

offlaners start buying tp scrolls just to get that xp boost. could be interesting

 

[kasane]

we should have a wc3 dota tourney instead

 

[Kard8p3]

fml getting sick (google says I have lung cancer LOL). thank god im not getting my wisdom teeth out tomorrow anymore, gonna try 2 delay until after finals. I go play xcom/Hearthstone and sleep. hopefully I awaken 2 6.84 notes.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think what I'd like is to have some way of ending the current phenomenon of one or two farmed carries, while supports are still dirt poor. This is particularly acute with things like a support Venge, Mirana, or Lina, or even the FOTM str Morphling. These are heroes that can be legitimate right click cores, given farm, but if they've had a non-farming position for the first 30 minutes of the game, it's pretty hard for them to catch up. What I want is a way for them to catch up, without making carries simply come online faster.

League of Legends sort of solved this problem (or at least addressed it) by creating items that were designed for supports to boost their gold gain during the laning phase. Like, for every enemy creep that your lane mate last hit, the supports nearby would get an extra 3-5 gold or something. Sounds small, but after a few waves, you have ward money. They are weak items that no carry would ever want to buy but have upgrade paths that allow them to build into a bit of utility. Makes playing support much less depressing in that game. Perhaps Dota should consider something similar. Or maybe slightly lowering the cost of important basic items like wards and boots. Maybe 375g for basic boots and 100g for sight wards. idk

 

[DrPizza]

League of Legends sort of solved this problem (or at least addressed it) by creating items that were designed for supports to boost their gold gain during the laning phase. Like, for every enemy creep that your lane mate last hit, the supports nearby would get an extra 3-5 gold or something. Sounds small, but after a few waves, you have ward money. Makes playing support much less depressing in that game. Perhaps Dota should consider something similar. Or maybe slightly lowering the cost of important basic items like wards and boots. Maybe 375g for basic boots and 100g for sight wards. idk

That's interesting. I was thinking something along the lines of an int or mana regen item that for example nerfed your right clicks in some way (making them weaker such that a core wouldn't want to buy the item), but increased your passive gold gain. A sort of anti-Midas.

 

[SteveWinwood]

part of being a good support is finding the money to buy that stuff

getting farm where you can from vacated lanes, the jungle, or ganking

the wards and boots shouldn't be given to you by just existing you're a paperweight not providing anything at that point

go earn your money

 

[Hylian7]

I know the froggy doesn't usually balance around pub Dota, and AM is kind of a fringe pick in pro games, but what would it take to make him relevant again?

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1427092933

In this recent game, it didn't matter how well I farmed, we still lost, I couldn't stop the push that was happening. This is a pattern in most of the AM games I lose. I know other people have the same sentiment: Any kind of "We have to end this now" is a lost game for AM.

In that game above, I took an entire rax by myself, and still had no chance to actually carry my team like a carry. With so many other carries the game may be falling apart around you, but if you farmed well, you still might come back. Medusa and Spectre are great examples of this.

But AM, it's unfortunate the state he's in. How do we make him more relevant?

 

[SteveWinwood]

do you actually want advice

 

[DrPizza]

part of being a good support is finding the money to buy that stuff

getting farm where you can from vacated lanes, the jungle, or ganking

the wards and boots shouldn't be given to you by just existing you're a paperweight not providing anything at that point

go earn your money

I guess pro games don't have good supports, then, because they have the same problem. It's even more acute if for example you have a lane of supercreeps pushing in, or a really greedy carry like a Naga Siren farming multiple lanes at once.

 

[Hylian7]

I think what I'd like is to have some way of ending the current phenomenon of one or two farmed carries, while supports are still dirt poor. This is particularly acute with things like a support Venge, Mirana, or Lina, or even the FOTM str Morphling. These are heroes that can be legitimate right click cores, given farm, but if they've had a non-farming position for the first 30 minutes of the game, it's pretty hard for them to catch up. What I want is a way for them to catch up, without making carries simply come online faster.

League of Legends sort of solved this problem (or at least addressed it) by creating items that were designed for supports to boost their gold gain during the laning phase. Like, for every enemy creep that your lane mate last hit, the supports nearby would get an extra 3-5 gold or something. Sounds small, but after a few waves, you have ward money. They are weak items that no carry would ever want to buy but have upgrade paths that allow them to build into a bit of utility. Makes playing support much less depressing in that game. Perhaps Dota should consider something similar. Or maybe slightly lowering the cost of important basic items like wards and boots. Maybe 375g for basic boots and 100g for sight wards. idk

As much as I am not a fan of support, especially the being poor aspect of it, I don't think Dota needs this at all. The supports generally build that utility to make the carry stronger basically. You see things like Force Staff, Mek, Euls, etc, all things that are basically for the team and still somewhat cheap items. Of course you buy your boots and wards, and I don't think 450 for boots is too much to ask.

In fact, I actually played a game as support Skywrath today, IN RANKED.

We still lost unfortunately. I could have done some things better, but I know I wasn't the sole reason we lost and I felt like I did my job pretty well.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1426549356

do you actually want advice

Was that a response to my post? I already know what the advice is: Don't pick AM in a solo pub. That's about all you can do.

I'm asking what he would need to be relevant again.

 

[Einbroch]

but welfare is amazing

Also, Dota 2 is the best MOBA. Too bad all MOBAs suck.

 

[Sigismundo]

League of Legends sort of solved this problem (or at least addressed it) by creating items that were designed for supports to boost their gold gain during the laning phase. Like, for every enemy creep that your lane mate last hit, the supports nearby would get an extra 3-5 gold or something. Sounds small, but after a few waves, you have ward money. They are weak items that no carry would ever want to buy but have upgrade paths that allow them to build into a bit of utility. Makes playing support much less depressing in that game. Perhaps Dota should consider something similar. Or maybe slightly lowering the cost of important basic items like wards and boots. Maybe 375g for basic boots and 100g for sight wards. idk

At least early on the +gold gain was used by everyone including supports. I distinctly remember 3 HoG + Atma's J4 in Season 1.

I don't think giving supports flat HP would be a problem in Dota, but it would have to be tweaked fairly heavily to prevent carries from abusing the gold gain (like how Tranquils ended up as the carry's boots)

 

[botty]

 

[Kard8p3]

im waiting for IF to remove UAM from Antimage

 

[SteveWinwood]

I guess pro games don't have good supports, then, because they have the same problem. It's even more acute if for example you have a lane of supercreeps pushing in, or a really greedy carry like a Naga Siren farming multiple lanes at once.

I'm really confused at this point what exactly your problem is

do you want supports to be able to farm like a carry

 

[Ties]

excuse me

 

[Artanisix]

"Stop."

Poser

 

[Hylian7]

im waiting for IF to remove UAM from Antimage

I'm still conflicted on this one. I think the most common choices would be Satanic or Skadi, but also it puts stuff like Desolator on the table. Desolator especially could potentially be super strong unless there was a damage reduction for mana break, but then if there had to be a mana break damage reduction, it might make him even more useless without items.

I'm sure it's something he's considering though, as it definitely seems like a natural next step.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm really confused at this point what exactly your problem is

do you want supports to be able to farm like a carry

I want supports to be able to see item progression and continued relevance in long games. I'd like it to be practical for roles to transition during the game.

 

[Hylian7]

I want supports to be able to see item progression and continued relevance in long games. I'd like it to be practical for roles to transition during the game.

They do, they just have to choose their items carefully and they don't get the traditional "buy this to do more damage" items. Support items are generally about utility and possibly surviving from certain sources of damage (Euls, Ghost Scepter, BKB). I don't think it's something that needs to change.

 

[TUSR]

I want supports to be able to see item progression and continued relevance in long games. I'd like it to be practical for roles to transition during the game.

leeg did this a few months ago

 

[Artanisix]

"I want supports to be able to see item progression and continued relevance in long games. I'd like it to be practical for roles to transition during the game."

They already do, though.

 

[Manus]

Just give me Invoker, Pugna and Bounty Hunter buffs and I'll be happy. A slight buff to Pugna could really put an end to all the Lina, Zues, Lion.

 

[Atlantis]

I'm not going to say no to more gold, but I don't think an item fix like League's would be very enjoyable. Supports have a lot of shit to carry around as it is.

 

[Volodja]

I want supports to be able to see item progression and continued relevance in long games. I'd like it to be practical for roles to transition during the game.

Supports already get more than they used to nowadays and are absolutely able to impact a fight in longer games, especially with bkb getting nerfed so much.

 

[DrPizza]

They do, they just have to choose their items carefully and they don't get the traditional "buy this to do more damage" items. Support items are generally about utility and possibly surviving from certain sources of damage (Euls, Ghost Scepter, BKB). I don't think it's something that needs to change.

So you'd argue that the sub-300 GPMs in a game like this is heroes continuing their progression and relevance? All three of those supports could make great use of refreshers (double GA, double hand of god, double wards) and scythes (though you might argue that that's a little redundant on SS). I guess I don't see it. Bristle and Sniper are essentially six-slotted. It would be really useful for the other three to increase their farm rates and get a wider selection of items. But at sub-300 GPM, even 60 minutes into a game, there's no real way for them to do so.

 

[Artanisix]

Half your claim is that supports don't have "continued relevance" throughout the game. But they do.

 

[dommynick]

I'm throwing this post in here because it seems to get viewed a lot more than the IHL thread, so here goes. I'm thinking about doing a little bi-weekly IHL 'talk show' or podcast of sorts, where captains/players can give their thoughts on a some IHL relevant topics, talk about their matches so far, etc. Nothing too intense or nerdy, but just some fun content that people who are in the IHL and/or are interested in the IHL can consume. So I'm just trying to gauge who would actually be interested in participating, and if anyone would actually watch said show.

 

[Drkirby]

I personally want more items period. New items are better then new heroes.

New heroes (New new, not "We gonna port WC3 doods") would also be great. I'm hoping TI5 has some "Vote for which of these heroes will release this winter!" vote, and give like 4 to 6 choices Ice Frog is working on. Ice frog should have come up with new hero ideas by now.

 

[Sanjay]

But AM, it's unfortunate the state he's in. How do we make him more relevant?

Go MoM & Skadi, problem solved.

 

[xanavi]

I'm throwing this post in here because it seems to get viewed a lot more than the IHL thread, so here goes. I'm thinking about doing a little bi-weekly IHL 'talk show' or podcast of sorts, where captains/players can give their thoughts on a some IHL relevant topics, talk about their matches so far, etc. Nothing too intense or nerdy, but just some fun content that people who are in the IHL and/or are interested in the IHL can consume. So I'm just trying to gauge who would actually be interested in participating, and if anyone would actually watch said show.

I would absolutely watch some sort of TSN Hockey post-game panel of the ihl.

Who gets to be James Duthie?

The Quiz is Canada's number one game show.

 

[Deleted member 77995]

back in the land of high skill and very high salt. feels good
edit: also yay, 300 wins

 

[A Sentient Keyboard]

I'm throwing this post in here because it seems to get viewed a lot more than the IHL thread, so here goes. I'm thinking about doing a little bi-weekly IHL 'talk show' or podcast of sorts, where captains/players can give their thoughts on a some IHL relevant topics, talk about their matches so far, etc. Nothing too intense or nerdy, but just some fun content that people who are in the IHL and/or are interested in the IHL can consume. So I'm just trying to gauge who would actually be interested in participating, and if anyone would actually watch said show.

Sounds fun, I'm down to be a guest on a thing like that.

 

[SecretMoblin]

godelsmetric banned idgi

I hope he's ok reach out to me cyst

ʕ ͡•ᴥ ͡• ʔʕ ͡•ᴥ ͡• ʔ

 

[Shuggananas]

people expecting patch note today lol

 

[G.ZZZ]

part of being a good support is finding the money to buy that stuff

getting farm where you can from vacated lanes, the jungle, or ganking

the wards and boots shouldn't be given to you by just existing you're a paperweight not providing anything at that point

go earn your money

Typical american mentality

 

[Dreams-Visions]

people expecting patch note today lol

let them hope

 

[Wok]

Of course, patch notes will be released tonight! I am expecting them in the next 10 hours. You people never learn the pattern.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Also supps need this item:

Poor's man pouch 200g
Active, pouch: give you a second stash accessible anymore, where however you can place only consumables .
Poor's man resilience , passive: when you're out of combat (10 seconds of no attack /get attacked), gain 1 reliable gold per second

 

[Shuggananas]

We also need free wards and a free blink on every hero
Also remove courier

 

[BlastProcessing]

So you'd argue that the sub-300 GPMs in a game like this is heroes continuing their progression and relevance? All three of those supports could make great use of refreshers (double GA, double hand of god, double wards) and scythes (though you might argue that that's a little redundant on SS). I guess I don't see it. Bristle and Sniper are essentially six-slotted. It would be really useful for the other three to increase their farm rates and get a wider selection of items. But at sub-300 GPM, even 60 minutes into a game, there's no real way for them to do so.

I don't really want to play in a meta where it's trivial for a every support to farm a refresher. I don't see the value in making 4's and 5's richer. Because any boost would affect both team's supports equally (more or less), I don't even see how it would change the balance of things. It feels like it would just make teamfights more chaotic and just prolong games. I play hard support most often and I rarely feel like I have no relevance in the endgame. There are plenty of things you can do to completely swing a fight.

When a late game team fight goes badly, I can almost always go back and look at a replay and see how I didn't execute. I rarely feel like I absolutely needed a big ticket item I didn't have. Maybe that's a lack of imagination on my part, but that's how I see it.

 

[Wok]

I don't really want to play in a meta where it's trivial for a every support to farm a refresher. I don't see the value in making 4's and 5's richer. Because any boost would affect both team's supports equally (more or less), I don't even see how it would change the balance of things. It feels like it would just make teamfights more chaotic and just prolong games. I play hard support most often and I rarely feel like I have no relevance in the endgame. There are plenty of things you can do to completely swing a fight.

When a late game team fight goes badly, I can almost always go back and look at a replay and see how I didn't execute. I rarely feel like I absolutely needed a big ticket item I didn't have. Maybe that's a lack of imagination on my part, but that's how I see it.

It depends on the draft. If the support does not fit, it is hard to have an impact in late teamfights.

 

[Deleted member 77995]

richer 4's andd 5's wouldd just create more core's i think
semi-supports transitioning into carries late game

 

[gai_shain]

I'm throwing this post in here because it seems to get viewed a lot more than the IHL thread, so here goes. I'm thinking about doing a little bi-weekly IHL 'talk show' or podcast of sorts, where captains/players can give their thoughts on a some IHL relevant topics, talk about their matches so far, etc. Nothing too intense or nerdy, but just some fun content that people who are in the IHL and/or are interested in the IHL can consume. So I'm just trying to gauge who would actually be interested in participating, and if anyone would actually watch said show.

sounds like a good idea

 

[docbon]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1427258798

perhaps... i should embrace the ganker lifestyle.

also that experience swing is a thing of beauty.

 

[Wok]

Actually, if Support Riki works so well, I think it is because ennemy supports are starved and keep feeding.

Typically, these guys were not bad and doing good support work. They cannot sustain it against a support Riki which eats them, keeps dewarding and does not care about dust.

I usually snipe the ennemy courier 2-3 times per game too, preferentially before it delivers a big item.

 

[BlastProcessing]

It depends on the draft. If the support does not fit, it is hard to have an impact in late teamfights.

I agree. But I would say every position's relevance depends on the draft to a certain extent.

Actually, if Support Riki works so well, I think it is because ennemy supports are starved and keep feeding.

Typically:

I feel that. The new Blink Strike is brutal. It used to be that I could get a force staff and feel somewhat safe as a support. But now that fucker just blinks again.