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[NormalFish]

Aghs Duel really kind of sucks and really isn't that great unless you can catch the enemy carry out, and then it just gives him no way to escape. A permanent disable is cool and all, but it really isn't all that practical since you could just get an item and kill them during the duel time.

i think the utility of aghs is that your team doesn't have to aid you in killing someone. if you duel an enemy mage carry and your team goes ham on the rest of the team, the infinite duel duration could be pretty useful.

It's definitely not the best, but I don't think it's necessarily bad.

 

[Hylian7]

i think the utility of aghs is that your team doesn't have to aid you in killing someone. if you duel an enemy mage carry and your team goes ham on the rest of the team, the infinite duel duration could be pretty useful.

It's definitely not the best, but I don't think it's necessarily bad.

Except they do, because what's going to happen is dueling someone forever leaves you wide open for the rest of your enemy's team to show up and just kill you, and boom, ez damage for enemy.

 

[Haly]

Ideally, what happens is you isolate a priority CC target that's extremely tanky but doesn't deal that much damage (BB?), and then Duel him with Aghs while your team charges into their team.

But how often does that happen, really? And why wouldn't you just go Refresher Enigma/Magnus? Or Aghs Doom?

 

[NormalFish]

Except they do, because what's going to happen is dueling someone forever leaves you wide open for the rest of your enemy's team to show up and just kill you, and boom, ez damage for enemy.

this is why you 1) don't build it on core LC and 2) build tanky to the exclusion of damage items. Those are both requirements for building aghs. If the enemy team focuses a jungling LC your 3 cores are getting free damage for as long as the duel lasts. Assuming ~5 seconds, that's enough time for your friendly PA or Slark to cause some serious damage.

 

[manfestival]

so I have come to the conclusion that silver edge slark is OP

 

[G.ZZZ]

They need to reinstate break during duel.

No they need to give her back a laning that doesn't fucking megasuck. Fuck icefraud nerfs. Buffing duel would make her even more of a 1-skill hero which i think it's terrible to play since it's still an extremely risky skill unlike Lasso Ravage or BH.

 

[Monochromaticx]

this is why you just dont need to pick LC ever

fixed

 

[Bilix]

No they need to give her back a laning that doesn't fucking megasuck. Fuck icefraud nerfs. Buffing duel would make her even more of a 1-skill hero which i think it's terrible to play since it's still an extremely risky skill unlike Lasso Ravage or BH.

Megasuck laning?

Skill up that Q!

 

[G.ZZZ]

Also Deso is so good now jeez.

 

[twobear]

what if aghs LC cast press the attack (even off cooldown) if she drops below 50% hp during the duel?

 

[Haly]

What if LC wasn't bad???

 

[G.ZZZ]

Megasuck laning?

Skill up that Q!

40 damage +another 40 damage if you hit hero + 3 creeps! For only 110 mana on a str hero and 3 hours CD! Well played! >Well Played!

 

[G.ZZZ]

Jokes aside the hero just need a buff on her OO. It's such a bad skill compared to others str heroes lane-controlling skills like shockwave, dragon breath, panda stomp, ice shards etc...

 

[NBtoaster]

I've already played a lot of LC this patch and I'm 8-2. Pretty sure shes back to being a strong hero. Silver Edge is made for her, don't be one of those blink scrubs.

 

[Haly]

Aghanim Upgrade: Duel transports Legion Commander and the target to the Shadow Realm where they fight to the death, leaving behind effigies of both heroes. Effigies can be right clicked by their respective teammates to channel their HP and Damage to the duelists via bonds of friendship.

 

[Quesa]

aghs duel should give damage and attack speed

 

[Imp the Dimp]

6.81 LC was fucking awesome. She was broken and nobody knew. Also annihilated Void who was OP and in like every pub.

 

[Wok]

Except they do, because what's going to happen is dueling someone forever leaves you wide open for the rest of your enemy's team to show up and just kill you, and boom, ez damage for enemy.

Exactly. Aghs LC is a joke. It is a funny gimmick but it serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

[monlo]

i feel like the new patch makes strength 'carry' types stronger (axe, kunkka, lc, etc)

am i wrong?

 

[LiQuid!]

Aghanim Upgrade: Duel transports Legion Commander and the target to the Shadow Realm where they fight to the death, leaving behind effigies of both heroes. Effigies can be right clicked by their respective teammates to channel their HP and Damage to the duelists via bonds of friendship.

How about: Transports LC and her duel target to her fountain to duel to the death.

 

[Acinixys]

Jokes aside the hero just need a buff on her OO. It's such a bad skill compared to others str heroes lane-controlling skills like shockwave, dragon breath, panda stomp, ice shards etc...

Remember when legion was released

And you could kill people with 2 OOs in lane

Those were the days

 

[Wok]

Actually, I would rather save for Octarine Core on LC.

https://youtu.be/w70d52GIKwk

 

[Drkirby]

i feel like the new patch makes strength 'carry' types stronger (axe, kunkka, lc, etc)

am i wrong?

It gives an edge to people who can fight early.

 

[DrPizza]

No they need to give her back a laning that doesn't fucking megasuck. Fuck icefraud nerfs. Buffing duel would make her even more of a 1-skill hero which i think it's terrible to play since it's still an extremely risky skill unlike Lasso Ravage or BH.

If you make her too strong at laning then you have a hero that will late game be running around with a free rapier's worth of damage who's also strong early game. Her skill set, IMO, means that she should be a late game right clicker. Sure, Duel also provides lockdown, but it's the +damage that's the point. She should be punching hard while being able to buy utility and survivability items, rather than +damage ones.

That's why I think giving Duel back its break would be wise. It helps her get to that late game, without making her powerful through all stages of the game.

But if you're not so worried about that: how about make Press The Attack dispel every 1 second of its duration, rather than just the start. Let Legion use it similar to Slark's Dark Pact, so she can use it on herself to avoid incoming stuns and silences.

 

[inkls]

It gives an edge to people who can fight early.

It seems so far in pubs people just try to deathball non-stop. It works early, but then they keep trying to get in fights and stop farming. They just end up losing their advantage because they have no item progression and they keep throwing their bodies at you.

If you make her too strong at laning then you have a hero that will late game be running around with a free rapier's worth of damage who's also strong early game. Her skill set, IMO, means that she should be a late game right clicker. Sure, Duel also provides lockdown, but it's the +damage that's the point. She should be punching hard while being able to buy utility and survivability items, rather than +damage ones.

That's why I think giving Duel back its break would be wise. It helps her get to that late game, without making her powerful through all stages of the game.

But if you're not so worried about that: how about make Press The Attack dispel every 1 second of its duration, rather than just the start. Let Legion use it similar to Slark's Dark Pact, so she can use it on herself to avoid incoming stuns and silences.

She can also buy silver edge and disable passives for the duel's duration too.

 

[Shuggananas]

She can also buy silver edge and disable passives for the duel's duration too.

that means no PtA

 

[Pratfall]

people seem to think this is the deathball patch when it actually isnt

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

If you make her too strong at laning then you have a hero that will late game be running around with a free rapier's worth of damage who's also strong early game. Her skill set, IMO, means that she should be a late game right clicker. Sure, Duel also provides lockdown, but it's the +damage that's the point. She should be punching hard while being able to buy utility and survivability items, rather than +damage ones.

That's why I think giving Duel back its break would be wise. It helps her get to that late game, without making her powerful through all stages of the game.

But if you're not so worried about that: how about make Press The Attack dispel every 1 second of its duration, rather than just the start. Let Legion use it similar to Slark's Dark Pact, so she can use it on herself to avoid incoming stuns and silences.

Legion gets kited like nobody's business, you can have +1000 damage and it won't matter much if you can't lock someone down. You need BKB and Abyssal just to be able to whack someone more than twice when Duel is on CD.

 

[SecretMoblin]

outhouse devourer in a pro game

 

[Haly]

She is not a late game right clicker.

She's not really much of an initiator either.

Or a CC machine.

Or a jungler.

She doesn't do anything well enough to warrant picking her over any other hero who can fill these roles better than she can.

 

[Holden]

inhouse up pw: ihl

join!

 

[Hylian7]

people seem to think this is the deathball patch when it actually isnt

It's not THE deathball patch like during the TI4 era, but it certainly is more prone to deathball than 6.83 ever was.

 

[DrPizza]

She can also buy silver edge and disable passives for the duel's duration too.

Good point. It's a bit expensive, but since Shadow Blade is already a good item on her, the build-up isn't too awful. Again, though, does nothing for her early game, only strengthens her late game.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

She is not a late game right clicker.

She's not really much of an initiator either.

Or a CC machine.

Or a jungler.

She doesn't do anything well enough to warrant picking her over any other hero who can fill these roles better than she can.

Pretty much

I pick Legion so I can play Legion, not because I expect to win.

Why the fuck did anyone say she was ever OP? Why did you do this to me Icefrog

 

[Haly]

She's the manliest hero in Dota 2, that's for sure.

She was once a good mid, not at the pro-level obviously, but for sub 4k pubs she was surprisingly consistent.

And then IceFrog took that away with the Q nerf.

 

[DrPizza]

Legion gets kited like nobody's business, you can have +1000 damage and it won't matter much if you can't lock someone down. You need BKB and Abyssal just to be able to whack someone more than twice when Duel is on CD.

She's no more or less kitable than most melee carries, and is one of the few with hard BKB-proof lockdown. I mean, you could say the same about Sven or Skeleton King or Lifestealer or many others. They may have a stun or slow (or they may be Juggernaut, and have neither), but when that's down (or OOM), you just kite them. This is why Skadi, S&Y, and basher/abyssal are so popular.

 

[Pratfall]

It's not THE deathball patch like during the TI4 era, but it certainly is more prone to deathball than 6.83 ever was.

I could be wrong but I seriously think this is a mass psychology thing and not actually true.

 

[Hylian7]

I could be wrong but I seriously think this is a mass psychology thing and not actually true.

At the very least, it's more prominent in pubs than it was last patch. I think generally, at least in the pub scene, I think farming heroes are generally going to lose out unless they can contribute significantly early on.

 

[Haly]

She's no more or less kitable than most melee carries, and is one of the few with hard BKB-proof lockdown. I mean, you could say the same about Sven or Skeleton King or Lifestealer or many others. They may have a stun or slow (or they may be Juggernaut, and have neither), but when that's down (or OOM), you just kite them. This is why Skadi, S&Y, and basher/abyssal are so popular.

The thing is, with those other guys, they have kits that shore up the kitability. Legion has Duel, and... that's about it. Duel sounds great on paper because INFINITE DAMAGE, but what really happens is that you get maybe 70-100 in a good game, which is an amount of damage all those other guys get as a basic part of their kit.

And all those heroes (Juggs excluded), dropped out of the meta for this very reason. She is, as far as I'm concerned, as reliable a right clicker as CK.

 

[Drkirby]

So far the only game I played that undying lost, the enemy randomed drow and clinkz. Even then we newly won. Undying so good.

 

[Pratfall]

At the very least, it's more prominent in pubs than it was last patch. I think generally, at least in the pub scene, I think farming heroes are generally going to lose out unless they can contribute significantly early on.

Right, I think the frequency of it showing up in pubs is fallout from everyone saying it is the way to win. I am doubtful of any claims of what the meta will be less than a week after the patch drops.

We played 2-3 games yesterday against teams that just ran around as 5 everywhere with mixed success.

 

[Hylian7]

This is something I think about. We have know sometimes the froggy balances things for pubs. There have been plenty examples of this, like PL back in the day or Spirit Breaker, or the slow on Dust. So that begs the question: Where does the difference come between "That's actually OP for pub games" as opposed to "Pubs just don't understand how to deal with that."?

It's certainly an interesting thing to think about, and then you wonder why some of these things aren't run in pro games (as far as CM heroes go at least). For instance, low-level pubs often have trouble with Riki or other invis heroes, and there's a simple way to deal with them, but then now you see something like Ursa and I've seen plenty of people claim he's just a "pub hero" that people are afraid in the current patch, but seem to completely throw out the fact that he can solo Rosh at level 6 in less than ten seconds. To deal with anyone that solo'd Rosh before, you would usually scout them doing it and interrupt them, as they were usually in a vulnerable state trying to solo it. With Ursa now, you don't have time to react to catch him out, even if you do get lucky and catch him in there, he can probably finish it right in front of you with no fucks given, and his team gets free Roshes all game. To me this does sound pretty overpowered and unfair.

Glimmer Cape is a glimmering (pun intended) example of this too. I think this thing is still overpowered, even with the manacost nerf, but lots of people will say it's just a "pub fear".

 

[Monochromaticx]

Really sucks that dotabuff doesnt record WW cold embrace healing

 

[Drkirby]

The two biggest examples IMO would be Omni and Abaddon. They have super high win rates but are pretty bad in the early game being melee supports with minimal cc and damage.

Ursa too, he is super easy to kite, but if he gets in your face you are dead, and can take rosh easily.

 

[Sigismundo]

What's the Aghs Luna build? Treads or Phase/Aghs/BKB/stuff?

 

[Shuggananas]

icefrog nerfs according to the pro scene

 

[DrPizza]

It's not THE deathball patch like during the TI4 era, but it certainly is more prone to deathball than 6.83 ever was.

TI4 wasn't the deathball patch until TI4, though, and Newbee showed at TI4 how to beat deathball. So I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that 6.84 becomes deathball. Guardian Greaves are the ultimate deathball item, after all, and while they're expensive, I don't think they're out of reach.

 

[Hylian7]

icefrog nerfs according to the pro scene

He totally has nerfed based on pubs before though.

Remember when Spacecow's ult was uninterruptable? That one was definitely a pub change.

In both 6.78 and 6.79, PL was nerfed, and this was due to pubs:

6.79

Spirit Lance is now disjointable.
6.78

Reduced Spirit Lance illusion damage dealt from 25% to 20%.
Reduced Doppelwalk illusion damage dealt from 25% to 20%.
Reduced Juxtapose illusions damage dealt from 25% to 20%.

On top of that, in 6.78 the Dust slow was added, which was another nerf to PL in particular, as he had Doppelwalk back then (the invis).

 

[Wok]

people seem to think this is the deathball patch when it actually isnt

It's not THE deathball patch like during the TI4 era, but it certainly is more prone to deathball than 6.83 ever was.

Right, I think the frequency of it showing up in pubs is fallout from everyone saying it is the way to win. I am doubtful of any claims of what the meta will be less than a week after the patch drops.

We played 2-3 games yesterday against teams that just ran around as 5 everywhere with mixed success.

It is not deathball, comeback can happen and you don't forfeit after the first rack is taken.

However, games are shorter. Edit: Actually, my games are: 38 min vs 41min previously. This is 10% shorter on average. Stomps are even shorter than they used to be.

 

[DrPizza]

The thing is, with those other guys, they have kits that shore up the kitability. Legion has Duel, and... that's about it. Duel sounds great on paper because INFINITE DAMAGE, but what really happens is that you get maybe 70-100 in a good game, which is an amount of damage all those other guys get as a basic part of their kit.

And all those heroes (Juggs excluded), dropped out of the meta for this very reason. She is, as far as I'm concerned, as reliable a right clicker as CK.

See, that's a strange thing to say to me, because CK is designed to be pretty unkiteable, and should be one of the more reliable melee right clickers. He has both a stun and a gap closer, and a really high movement speed. If he's kited, it's not because of his skills but because he's run out of the mana to use them.