• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

DOTA 2 |OT9| League of Ancients (6.84)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
It's not a hard and fast rule. I feel like this needs to be repeated every time you ask for advice in the thread.

Stop treating strategy in this game as a straight line from A to Z. You go into hero select with a plan, sure, but there are times when the plan isn't coming to fruition and you should switch to a backup plan.

I don't know how you still haven't figured this out yet. You're at the MMR range where you have to take a multi-faceted approach to builds and decision-making but you're only sticking to one strategy, always.

When a mid/carry game goes your way, and you build items X, Y and Z in that order, you assume, wrongly, that you won because you built items X, Y and Z in that order. But when it doesn't go your way, suddenly you can't understand why you're losing. After all, you built items X, Y and Z as usual and it's worked before!

No. You won in those cases because you lucked out with your choice of hero, choice of build and the matchup.

I feel like this is an unintentional consequence of you never seriously playing support, because you have never been forced to make the hard decisions like saving for an item or buying more detection, of pulling the lane or zoning the enemy, of controlling runes or setting up a kill, of getting halberd or getting force staff.

More broadly, I think that you are unaware of what this game really is, on a basic level. You think it's about execution, and that's true, to an extent. But that's only half of it. The other half is strategy and tactics. You are woefully weak on this front and, as far as I can tell, make no proactive effort to get better at it. How many times have you posted something like this in this thread?

people say xxxx, so why is this not still true?

Because it comes up a lot. Because you say this every time someone "contradicts" advice you've heard before. Because you missed the memo that games are shifting towards early fighting and traditional late game carries have to change their playstyles to adapt. Because you think AM is only good at being a late game carry and nothing else. Remember RTZ's aggressive PA in TI4? Same principle applies to AM. True, he needs to play it a bit safer. But he has hero killing abilities at level 6. He can kill at level 4. Yet you aren't aware of any of this.

Maybe if you actually observed the other players in your game, you might figure these things out?

I hate to say it, but out of your almost 5000 games of DOTA 2, you've managed to squander half of it, if not more, because you missed this lesson early on. Instead, you've been powering forward through sheer force of will. Now, you've reached a skill plateau and you can't overcome it, because there's a whole other element to the game you've been ignoring which you can't ignore any longer. And the worst part is you don't even realize this, because you needed the skill of analysis to recognize what you're missing as a player in the first place.
 

Kard8p3

Member
That's Matt's. I'm not made of steambux

o ok! sorry
disappear.gif
 
D

Deleted member 77995

Unconfirmed Member
this thread is gonna make me better at fighting games on top of dota, I can feel it.
 
From an alternate build perspective Kuro went Maelstrom > Manta AM one time so he could be really aggressive, didn't he?

(I have no idea how to use Datdota properly)
 

shira

Member
Gold statues look like shit


sick.gif

If Valve was smart they would have each TI5 qualifier and main event team have 5 of them . Have LD and Dad give a little mouseover during every DDoS pause.

EZ
mozz_shopkeep.gif


You don't need level 250, you just need MAD RNG SKILLZ.

Based on the available compendium achievements even if you got everything perfect you would only be level 148. I mean you get the Reforger at level 135 but the RNG to nail all of those, you might as well just play the Powerball
 

Hylian7

Member
It's not a hard and fast rule. I feel like this needs to be repeated every time you ask for advice in the thread.

Stop treating strategy in this game as a straight line from A to Z. You go into hero select with a plan, sure, but there are times when the plan isn't coming to fruition and you should switch to a backup plan.

I don't know how you still haven't figured this out yet. You're at the MMR range where you have to take a multi-faceted approach to builds and decision-making but you're only sticking to one strategy, always.

When a mid/carry game goes your way, and you build items X, Y and Z in that order, you assume, wrongly, that you won because you built items X, Y and Z in that order. But when it doesn't go your way, suddenly you can't understand why you're losing. After all, you built items X, Y and Z as usual and it's worked before!

No. You won in those cases because you lucked out with your choice of hero, choice of build and the matchup.

I feel like this is an unintentional consequence of you never seriously playing support, because you have never been forced to make the hard decisions like saving for an item or buying more detection, of pulling the lane or zoning the enemy, of controlling runes or setting up a kill, of getting halberd or getting force staff.

More broadly, I think that you are unaware of what this game really is, on a basic level. You think it's about execution, and that's true, to an extent. But that's only half of it. The other half is strategy and tactics. You are woefully weak on this front and, as far as I can tell, make no proactive effort to get better at it. How many times have you posted something like this in this thread?



Because it comes up a lot. Because you say this every time someone "contradicts" advice you've heard before. Because you missed the memo that games are shifting towards early fighting and traditional late game carries have to change their playstyles to adapt. Because you think AM is only good at being a late game carry and nothing else. Remember RTZ's aggressive PA in TI4? Same principle applies to AM. True, he needs to play it a bit safer. But he has hero killing abilities at level 6. He can kill at level 4. Yet you aren't aware of any of this.

Maybe if you actually observed the other players in your game, you might figure these things out?

I hate to say it, but out of your almost 5000 games of DOTA 2, you've managed to squander half of it, if not more, because you missed this lesson early on. Instead, you've been powering forward through sheer force of will. Now, you've reached a skill plateau and you can't overcome it, because there's a whole other element to the game you've been ignoring which you can't ignore any longer. And the worst part is you don't even realize this, because you needed the skill of analysis to recognize what you're missing as a player in the first place.

I appreciate the advice. However at the same time I'm unclear on some things.

For instance let's use AM since we are discussing him. What I've learned about the hero, and he was one I tried waaaaaaaaaay back when I started playing Dota, is generally if you couldn't go Battle Fury by 20 minutes, then get Vanguard instead. However most of the time Vanguard meant you lost the game already anyway. In fact now you even see if an AM goes Vanguard, it's basically an admission of defeat, because THE AM build is Battle Fury > Manta > whatever else for the most part. I honestly can't think of any build for AM that doesn't involve Battle Fury and Manta somehow that makes any sense at all. None. Even if you want to build an early aggression AM, you still need those items.

Part of the problem I know I have with strategizing is that strategizing in pub games is very difficult. You have no idea what your teammates are thinking, they don't know what you're thinking. They might be muted, you might be muted, or they just might not be listening or willing to communicate at all for whatever reason. Usually "How are we going to win this game?" comes down to "I don't know, just don't feed, farm, and kill the bad guys, ward, and push towers." Then what happens if you disagree with your team's strategic calls? Your team wants to walk right into a trap in the Rosh pit and you are sitting there saying "Don't do it." and don't go with them so they only get an Ultra Kill and not a rampage out of it, and then what, you still lose anyway despite you making the right decision?

I mean yeah a lot of times my item builds end up similar on heroes, but I know I don't build the same items every single time on heroes. Tinker for instance, sometimes I go Aghanims as my first item (After BoTs Soul Ring Blink) if we have to play defensive or are against illusions, and then Sheep if we can be more aggressive.

rofl

t1430943900z1.png


soon.

What is this a countdown to?
 

Trickster

Member
Anyone know why I just had a Doombringer melee me to death while sandstorming as Sand King inside my own well? No one on the other team had a gem on them
 

Wok

Member
If you get to level 50, you have 4 treasures I, 2 treasures II, but only 1 treasure III.

If you get to level 100, you have 6 treasures I, 5 treasures II, but only 3 treasures III.

If you get to level 150, you have 7 treasures of each kind.

If you get to level 180, you have 8 treasures of each kind.

I am not sure I want the Enigma item. It is cool, but am I willing to pay this much? If treasures III are really good, I will certainly go to a level between 100 and 150. If I am lucky, level 100 would be the sweet spot, with no duplicate of treasure I.

The Watcher Below Ward $6,500,000 Friday 8th morning

Next goal in two days.

Also, vote for my heroes for arcana:
eBZoGOu.png
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Goddam Haly
mayatomr_laugh.gif

I appreciate the advice. However at the same time I'm unclear on some things.

For instance let's use AM since we are discussing him. What I've learned about the hero, and he was one I tried waaaaaaaaaay back when I started playing Dota, is generally if you couldn't go Battle Fury by 20 minutes, then get Vanguard instead. However most of the time Vanguard meant you lost the game already anyway. In fact now you even see if an AM goes Vanguard, it's basically an admission of defeat, because THE AM build is Battle Fury > Manta > whatever else for the most part. I honestly can't think of any build for AM that doesn't involve Battle Fury and Manta somehow that makes any sense at all. None. Even if you want to build an early aggression AM, you still need those items.

Part of the problem I know I have with strategizing is that strategizing in pub games is very difficult. You have no idea what your teammates are thinking, they don't know what you're thinking. They might be muted, you might be muted, or they just might not be listening or willing to communicate at all for whatever reason. Usually "How are we going to win this game?" comes down to "I don't know, just don't feed, farm, and kill the bad guys, ward, and push towers." Then what happens if you disagree with your team's strategic calls? Your team wants to walk right into a trap in the Rosh pit and you are sitting there saying "Don't do it." and don't go with them so they only get an Ultra Kill and not a rampage out of it, and then what, you still lose anyway despite you making the right decision?
1) Reread Haly's post. Reread what you wrote. Use your head. You get an early BF for farming. Did you know you can also go Vlads -> Yasha/Drums and fight? No one does this but you totally can make the reads and the call to do something else. Hell you could go PMS -> Aqulia -> Morbid -> Yasha and have crazy spikes thanks to spell shield and move speed. Alternatively Vanguard to cover HP/Physical and Stats/Spell Shield for magic to abuse how strong blink and mana break are. Just because it's out of meta doesn't make it bad.

Never hearing of fighting before MANTA is utterly insane with 4000 games played and I'm ASSUMING you've watched SOME pro dota. I was watching your voker game vs techies and was thinking that Necro 3 Voker might make a come back in this meta. Did you know that was a legit item on Invoker? Like I didn't understand how you can have 500 Tinker games and not know about anti tinker wards.

2) You talk in pubs which imo is a good thing, but you should be quick to identify WHY your team should be doing something or not doing something. I saw a lot of fights which just a ping and a 'dont fight till ulti' prevents disaster from happening. Generally if it's sound and obvious people will go along with it in my experience. DOING NOTHING BECAUSE THE PROJECTED OUTCOME MIGHT NOT HAPPEN ISNT A GOOD EXCUSE
Reflecting on that you have extremely bad camera control and game sense of the state of the game. Most posters on here call it tunnel vision for you which means you farm up your core items on 'x' hero ignoring pretty much everything else. Yes, sometimes you do react. A MAJORITY OF THE TIME you leave a fight and never look back. Watch your VODs. I'm positive it's near or higher than 50%. YOU CANT MAKE GOOD DECISIONS IF YOU DONT KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN YOUR GAME. YOU CAN'T ADAPT IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN YOUR GAME.

These are your biggest problems and why I said you needed to think and adapt. Opening up hero tab for 0.2s is not you making an assessment of the state of the game. Never continuously monitoring your team items/ulti vs enemy level/items/ulti is an incredibly large part of this. Last game I played vs Techies I was timing out Techies suicide CD so our carry wouldn't be scared and they got two kills. These things win games. Telling your team to wait for a creep wave so 2 of your ultis come up wins games. Me pinging camps for our initiator at 1900 gold to get his blink 1-2 minutes earlier, then fight at a T1 before they know he has one wins games.
Hopefully that's all I write for a while and you don't respond with 'Thanks for your input, but I do these things some of the time.'

That's why people are so flustered with you.
ggradiant.gif


*Last bit. Last 3 months your WR was 47.5%. This month it is 42%. Stop playing on tilt. Play unranked. Get better. Play ranked when you are feeling good. Honestly should just give Hylian a training regime of Slahser's way win 5 games doing 'x'. First is winning 5 games as Jungle Treant who solo's Roshan. You are massively overdue to learning other part's of Dota.
anuxi_rum.gif
 
D

Deleted member 77995

Unconfirmed Member
The HOHO HAHA still has it. Glad to be done with that challenge in one match. Next up is Lina and Sven!
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Based on the available compendium achievements even if you got everything perfect you would only be level 148. I mean you get the Reforger at level 135 but the RNG to nail all of those, you might as well just play the Powerball

I got a Gold Cube from the 1 Reforger I got. Not sure if I'll pump enough cash to get a the level 250 one. Wish you could get more normal ones, I really like the TI5 style Effigy.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Even if you want to build an early aggression AM, you still need those items.
Sure. But that doesn't mean you need all of those items to fight. And a lot of AGI carries build Vlads/Yasha for early clashing.

Part of the problem I know I have with strategizing is that strategizing in pub games is very difficult. ...you still lose anyway despite you making the right decision?
So? Stop focusing on wins and losses and focus on how to improve your decision making, your strategizing, your analysis, and, hell, even your communication. There's no point in being a tactical genius if you're too insufferable to be worth listening to.

My suggestion to you, as has been mentioned before, is this:

Play unranked.

Play AR. Or do the All Hero Challenge.

Play, not to win, but to improve. These are actually two separate things that just happen to synergize. You said you've been 4k before, and this is true. Though I have come to the conclusion that it's not because you were ever a 4k player, but because you abused a strategy that could make 3.5k perform at a 4k level. As soon as the strategy was nerfed, you fell back down to where you really were. Players don't really ever get worse with time, unless they stop caring about the game (doesn't apply to you) or take a long break (doesn't apply to you), or get too old for it (doesn't apply to anyone, #oldmangaming). Player performance can be impacted by shifts in the meta game, but I doubt it's ever as severe as 500 MMR and if it is, well, then that player probably has some glaring weaknesses that were exposed by said shift (e.g. you, TI3 Alliance).

It is more difficult to focus on your play if you're worried about making a number go up. This is why you should play unranked. Even better, make a smurf account so you don't even need to worry about win rate. You really don't have the mindset or self awareness to improve and grind ranked at the same time. The way you play now is likely counterproductive to your goals of being a higher MMR player.

I, obviously, have never heard you cast. But you have casted games before and I assume you aren't too bad at it. With that said, the mentality you adopt while casting a game? You need to be able to maintain that same attitude while you're playing a game. It's no different in practice, just more demanding.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
I am seriously considering an unranked regime of heroes (including unorthodox builds) to make someone better at understanding Dota.

Maybe start where I started with Sand King. Play as a shitty lane support who needs to gank / farm and yells at his team to fight so he can get sweet sweet kills.

As I got better I understood that I shouldn't be standing in lane doing nothing and sapping exp, stacked, pulled, etc. Became aware of my role shortcomings and strengths, applied that to other heroes, etc.
 

1.09

Low Tier
i dont think slahsers builds are ever good from the ones i've heard of (wr, silencer, voidlol)

If people wanna improve i'll teach em how to increase their mmr by 400 for the cheap cheap price of 1 cool dota hat. (And if they'll actually take the lessons to heart unlike some people I've tried to help for free)

FhlOnbx.png


isnt shuggananas like a 4k Euro player who does nothing but shitpost and lose every inhouse he's ever played? IIRC that's what happened. Lemme know when you finally get top 100 any leaderboard.
 
Woah i lost 1 game out of 1 that really burns. I dont play ranked fyi and i dont see how being euro is relevant oh wait thats because it isnt, other than mmr isnt inflated there as opposed to NA
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I think the skill build of Slashers Silencer is a decent build, I think he is right that you can do a ton of reliable damage if you just ignore Curse. The item build is dumb though.
 

1.09

Low Tier
oh my bad ROFL i forgot 0% is 0% haha my point stands

smoke weed 420

is my post quality like yours now

xxxxDDDD who cares lel

This thread was so much better when you and hylian were banned
 

spk

Member
Goddam Haly
mayatomr_laugh.gif


1) Reread Haly's post. Reread what you wrote. Use your head.

Just wondering, do you guys ever get tired of Hylian making the same posts? This is the 2nd time I've posted about this but I'm asking again because I've totally lost count of the number of times he's been given advice, stated in numerous ways, in numerous tones, and then continued as if he doesn't remember the other 5936930 times it happened

Like when does it become intolerable and when do you just start scrolling by his posts without reading them? And Hylian when will you read your post history to see what everyone else has to see? It's actually incredible

I mean I've been reading this thread for nearly 2 years now and guess what I can always count on seeing almost any time I decide to check it
 

1.09

Low Tier
I'll offer the same as I did hylian. 1v1 sf for a week vacation from this thread. We'll even play on Lux if you want.

t1430943900z1.png
 
you're such a fucking badass man
keep jerking off to your 5k mmr and shitting on everybody, it's doing wonders

Just wondering, do you guys ever get tired of Hylian making the same posts? This is the 2nd time I've posted about this but I'm asking again because I've totally lost count of the number of times he's been given advice, stated in numerous ways, in numerous tones, and then continued as if he doesn't remember the other 5936930 times it happened

Like when does it become intolerable and when do you just start scrolling by his posts without reading them? And Hylian when will you read your post history to see what everyone else has to see? It's actually incredible

I mean I've been reading this thread for nearly 2 years now and guess what I can always count on seeing almost any time I decide to check it
well yeah it's always the same, and about the same issues or heroes (b-but i want farm ! b-but I know AM/storm by heart !)
 

Lotto

Member
1442234dbc.png


how fukin far i've fallen jesus someone help, longest losing streak yet
im just kidding i dont even play this game
 

1.09

Low Tier
honestly i dont think i've ever referenced my mmr or anything of the sort.

Also the only people I shit on are the delusional. I'm hella nice to people most of the time, you guys (you know who you are) are just gutter trash 80% of the time.

Still waiting for a yes/no
 

Hylian7

Member
Sure. But that doesn't mean you need all of those items to fight. And a lot of AGI carries build Vlads/Yasha for early clashing.


So? Stop focusing on wins and losses and focus on how to improve your decision making, your strategizing, your analysis, and, hell, even your communication. There's no point in being a tactical genius if you're too insufferable to be worth listening to.

My suggestion to you, as has been mentioned before, is this:

Play unranked.

Play AR. Or do the All Hero Challenge.

Play, not to win, but to improve. These are actually two separate things that just happen to synergize. You said you've been 4k before, and this is true. Though I have come to the conclusion that it's not because you were ever a 4k player, but because you abused a strategy that could make 3.5k perform at a 4k level. As soon as the strategy was nerfed, you fell back down to where you really were. Players don't really ever get worse with time, unless they stop caring about the game (doesn't apply to you) or take a long break (doesn't apply to you), or get too old for it (doesn't apply to anyone, #oldmangaming). Player performance can be impacted by shifts in the meta game, but I doubt it's ever as severe as 500 MMR and if it is, well, then that player probably has some glaring weaknesses that were exposed by said shift (e.g. you, TI3 Alliance).

It is more difficult to focus on your play if you're worried about making a number go up. This is why you should play unranked. Even better, make a smurf account so you don't even need to worry about win rate. You really don't have the mindset or self awareness to improve and grind ranked at the same time. The way you play now is likely counterproductive to your goals of being a higher MMR player.

I, obviously, have never heard you cast. But you have casted games before and I assume you aren't too bad at it. With that said, the mentality you adopt while casting a game? You need to be able to maintain that same attitude while you're playing a game. It's no different in practice, just more demanding.

I actually do need to go back and finish the AHC, and think I will actually do that. Thanks.

oh my bad ROFL i forgot 0% is 0% haha my point stands

smoke weed 420

is my post quality like yours now

xxxxDDDD who cares lel

This thread was so much better when you and hylian were banned

Because this thread is so much better with thread bully 1.09 around. Give it a fucking rest buddy. You have it out for people in here and everyone gives you a free pass because reasons. It's a hilarious double standard that pisses myself and others off to no end.


Just wondering, do you guys ever get tired of Hylian making the same posts? This is the 2nd time I've posted about this but I'm asking again because I've totally lost count of the number of times he's been given advice, stated in numerous ways, in numerous tones, and then continued as if he doesn't remember the other 5936930 times it happened

Like when does it become intolerable and when do you just start scrolling by his posts without reading them? And Hylian when will you read your post history to see what everyone else has to see? It's actually incredible

I mean I've been reading this thread for nearly 2 years now and guess what I can always count on seeing almost any time I decide to check it

I'll be totally honest, I have made plenty of dumb posts when on tilt and I have my character and Dota flaws, both things I feel like I am trying to improve on lately. I'm sorry it bothers you so much.
 
honestly i dont think i've ever referenced my mmr or anything of the sort.

Also the only people I shit on are the delusional. I'm hella nice to people most of the time, you guys (you know who you are) are just gutter trash 80% of the time.

Still waiting for a yes/no

of course no, and yes you have.
 

Satch

Banned
im almost positive he makes references to his mmr because of Imp the Dimp posting in here about how everyone below 4k mmr should just auto-listen to his opinions because hes above 4k mmr and anyone below that is a shitter
 

Hylian7

Member
Goddam Haly
mayatomr_laugh.gif


1) Reread Haly's post. Reread what you wrote. Use your head. You get an early BF for farming. Did you know you can also go Vlads -> Yasha/Drums and fight? No one does this but you totally can make the reads and the call to do something else. Hell you could go PMS -> Aqulia -> Morbid -> Yasha and have crazy spikes thanks to spell shield and move speed. Alternatively Vanguard to cover HP/Physical and Stats/Spell Shield for magic to abuse how strong blink and mana break are. Just because it's out of meta doesn't make it bad.

Never hearing of fighting before MANTA is utterly insane with 4000 games played and I'm ASSUMING you've watched SOME pro dota. I was watching your voker game vs techies and was thinking that Necro 3 Voker might make a come back in this meta. Did you know that was a legit item on Invoker? Like I didn't understand how you can have 500 Tinker games and not know about anti tinker wards.

2) You talk in pubs which imo is a good thing, but you should be quick to identify WHY your team should be doing something or not doing something. I saw a lot of fights which just a ping and a 'dont fight till ulti' prevents disaster from happening. Generally if it's sound and obvious people will go along with it in my experience. DOING NOTHING BECAUSE THE PROJECTED OUTCOME MIGHT NOT HAPPEN ISNT A GOOD EXCUSE
Reflecting on that you have extremely bad camera control and game sense of the state of the game. Most posters on here call it tunnel vision for you which means you farm up your core items on 'x' hero ignoring pretty much everything else. Yes, sometimes you do react. A MAJORITY OF THE TIME you leave a fight and never look back. Watch your VODs. I'm positive it's near or higher than 50%. YOU CANT MAKE GOOD DECISIONS IF YOU DONT KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN YOUR GAME. YOU CAN'T ADAPT IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN YOUR GAME.

These are your biggest problems and why I said you needed to think and adapt. Opening up hero tab for 0.2s is not you making an assessment of the state of the game. Never continuously monitoring your team items/ulti vs enemy level/items/ulti is an incredibly large part of this. Last game I played vs Techies I was timing out Techies suicide CD so our carry wouldn't be scared and they got two kills. These things win games. Telling your team to wait for a creep wave so 2 of your ultis come up wins games. Me pinging camps for our initiator at 1900 gold to get his blink 1-2 minutes earlier, then fight at a T1 before they know he has one wins games.
Hopefully that's all I write for a while and you don't respond with 'Thanks for your input, but I do these things some of the time.'

That's why people are so flustered with you.
ggradiant.gif


*Last bit. Last 3 months your WR was 47.5%. This month it is 42%. Stop playing on tilt. Play unranked. Get better. Play ranked when you are feeling good. Honestly should just give Hylian a training regime of Slahser's way win 5 games doing 'x'. First is winning 5 games as Jungle Treant who solo's Roshan. You are massively overdue to learning other part's of Dota.
anuxi_rum.gif
Sorry, I scrolled past this one on accident at first.

Anyway I appreciate the advice, although I think Jungle Tree soloing Rosh sounds like a recipe for disaster and learning how to make your team hate you. :p
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Like when does it become intolerable and when do you just start scrolling by his posts without reading them?
I think it's advice anyone can use. As long as it helps someone, it's justified in my eyes.
DsrA6Kc.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom