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Dragon Ball Super |OT8| There is no justice or evil, only survival or erasure.

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H

HeroR

Member
Romars202129 said:
Its insane to me it wasn't a guarantee. some of these fighters haven't suited up in irl decades.



I feel its a standard for life, I mean boxing, mma, its all one on one. But also a standard for the show outside this arc.
That said, outside U9 vs Goku and Vegeta, I dont think any of the team fights have felt very substantial. And that one has problems, in that the momentum is literally they refuse to hold back against a bunch of weaklings, and then don't. Not really much of a fight imo.
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1v1 had been downplayed in Super since the Future Trunks Saga when we got 2v1, 2v2, and even 3v1 and 3v2.
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
HeroR said:
Goku also said he could beat Black and Zamasu if he could restraint their movements. Nothing about actually getting stronger. And Goku directly asked Vegeta if he wanted Black or Zamasu. Not, 'take care of Black' if he thought he couldn't fight him.

So, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta was never stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

Black's power increase ability also did catch up with Vegeta.
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Where did he say that? Also Goku asking that question doesn't mean he would win. It's just him being overly eager as always.

Goku said he can only beat them if their movements were restrained. Vegeta could beat black when his movement wasn't restrained. So yes, that is more than what Goku even thought he himself could pull off.

No it didn't. Vegeta had the power advantage in that battle the whole time and Black had to eventually retreat and fuse with Zamasu. And it's still a testament of his strength in comparison to Goku's either way that he could hold such an advantage for as long as he did when Goku just lost to him a couple episodes ago.
 
R

Romars202129

Member
HeroR said:
1v1 had been downplayed in Super since the Future Trunks Saga when we got 2v1, 2v2, and even 3v1 and 3v2.
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Like I said I don't really find any of the team fights here in this arc so far substantial enough to count outside U9 vs G&V. And I rate that one much lower than 17 vs Kakunsa personally.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
Where did he say that? Also Goku asking that question doesn't mean he would win. It's just him being overly eager as always.

Goku said he can only beat them if their movements were restrained. Vegeta could beat black when his movement wasn't restrained. So yes, that is more than what Goku even thought he himself could pull off.

No it didn't. Vegeta had the power advantage in that battle the whole time and Black had to eventually retreat and fuse with Zamasu. And it's still a testament of his strength in comparison to Goku's either way that he could hold such an advantage for as long as he did when Goku just lost to him a couple episodes ago.
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In Episode 63. He asked Vegeta who he wanted to fight. Vegeta said Black since he was surperior to Goku and wouldn't lose to a fake. To which Goku chuckled at. And why would Goku even asked the question if he outright couldn't win?

Goku was talking about Black and Zamasu together. Vegeta didn't have to deal with Zamasu in Epsoide 63 since Goku was handling him.

He didn't retreat. He got stronger and played with Goku and Vegeta with his clones, who hurt both Vegeta and Goku. He only left to check on Zamasu. You're thinking of the manga. I suggest you watch Epsoide 64 again.
 
S

Skeeter49

Member
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
I was robbed of my fanfic idea of a Big Bang destructo disc that made no sense but it would look cool like a energy ball version of Saturn so...I kinda feel ya pain lol
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Vegeta and Frieza are still in. There's still hope for that.
Or Vegeta and 18.

Do you want your disc red or yellow?

caliph95 said:
You had a husband and wife game of catch
What more do you want
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18 to show Krillin the true way to her heart. Murdering a bunch of people in a Battle Royale.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Slaythe said:
He was absolutely not forced to fight Cell and knew he couldn't win from the start.
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And he outright said he couldn't win and he fought Cell for fun and so Gohan can see how Cell fought.

Black stopped being fun for Goku after he learned that he murdered his family.
 
MiguelMexMIstery

MiguelMexMIstery

Member
HardRojo said:
Was watching random parts of the Future Trunks arc and this always gets me :(

4243ee870f3b2bf97d477ba639487787b723039a_hq.gif
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Blackleg-sanji1 said:
All I want outta this tournament is a father son
Masenko
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We were robbed from Bros. Masenko
 
C

caliph95

Member
Skeeter49 said:
Vegeta and Frieza are still in. There's still hope for that.
Or Vegeta and 18.

Do you want your disc red or yellow?


18 to show Krillin the true way to her heart. Murdering a bunch of people in a Battle Royale.
Click to expand...
I guess we can settle for master slave death beam
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
HeroR said:
In Episode 63. He asked Vegeta who he wanted to fight. Vegeta said Black since he was surperior to Goku and wouldn't lose to a fake. To which Goku chuckled at. And why would Goku even asked the question if he outright couldn't win?

Goku was talking about Black and Zamasu together. Vegeta didn't have to deal with Zamasu in Epsoide 63 since Goku was handling him.

He didn't retreat. He got stronger and played with Goku and Vegeta with his clones, who hurt both Vegeta and Goku. He only left to check on Zamasu. You're thinking of the manga. I suggest you watch Epsoide 64 again.
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Because he's overeager, I just answered that question. His confidence doesn't confirm anything.

Well Goku was either delusional (considering he was just shown to be weaker than Black alone), or had some strategy. But even if he did have a specific tactic to win, it wouldn't change the fact that Vegeta had him beat in raw power by that point (which is what this discussion is about).

He got stronger maybe, but nothing there confirms he was stronger than Vegeta. They both handled the clones, it just got them caught up in something else for a bit while Black could leave. I'm not thinking of the manga. And even if you want to say he was stronger in that current moment, it isn't an important part of this discussion.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
Because he's overeager, I just answered that question. His confidence doesn't confirm anything.

Well Goku was either delusional (considering he was just shown to be weaker than Black alone), or had some strategy. But even if he did have a specific tactic to win, it wouldn't change the fact that Vegeta had him beat in raw power by that point (which is what this discussion is about).

He got stronger maybe, but nothing there confirms he was stronger than Vegeta. They both handled the clones, it just got them caught up in something else for a bit while Black could leave. I'm not thinking of the manga. And even if you want to say he was stronger in that current moment, it isn't an important part of this discussion.
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But Goku wasn't shown overeager and your answer really doesn't explain why Goku bother to asked if Black could floor him.

Goku had no tactic other than the Evil Containment Wave to seal Future Zamasu. When that failed, he had no issue with just beating Black up. Nothing supports that he was 'delusional'.

Goku melted half of Merged Zamasu's face. Vegeta didn't even with Trunks help. That's a far greater feat than Vegeta beating up Black. So Goku is shown to be stronger than Vegeta.

His clones were able to hurt Vegeta when he couldn't before. He even told Vegeta and Goku to get stronger, which is why he sent Zamasu to kill Future Trunks and the others.

You were thinking manga since you claimed that Black had to retreat since he was weaker than Vegeta, which wasn't the case. Also, the director of Super outright called the strongest character Beerus, not counting the fusions.
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
Slaythe said:
I honestly can't tell if it's because I'm biased or not, but 17 vs Kakunsa is one of the fights that stood out the most.
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Yes I agree it's easily one of the highlights of the tournament. Choreography wasn't that interesting (until the end) but the fight choreography hasn't been that interesting in this tournament all around for the most part. What made it good is all of the "generic db action cuts" looked better and more stylized than usual.

I also love how when it's panning up from 17 being on the ground, it stops before his face and one might think "ohh he's KO", but then it quickly zooms up and he just had this blank expression with open eyes the whole time. (Just as I expected!)
 
B

BlazinSkatinAxel

Member
HeroR said:
In Episode 63. He asked Vegeta who he wanted to fight. Vegeta said Black since he was surperior to Goku and wouldn't lose to a fake. To which Goku chuckled at. And why would Goku even asked the question if he outright couldn't win?

Goku was talking about Black and Zamasu together. Vegeta didn't have to deal with Zamasu in Epsoide 63 since Goku was handling him.
Click to expand...


Goku didn't know Vegeta went to the RoSaT and that Vegeta was stronger than him. The same thing happened again with ToP.
 
H

HeroR

Member
BlazinSkatinAxel said:
Goku didn't know Vegeta went to the RoSaT and that Vegeta was stronger than him. The same thing happened again with ToP.
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He said Vegeta got stronger in Episode 63, so I'm not sure why you think Goku unaware. He wasn't even shocked Vegeta bodied Black.

And what do you mean the same thing happened in TOP since he knew Vegeta used the Time Chamber.
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
HeroR said:
But Goku wasn't shown overeager and your answer really doesn't explain why Goku bother to asked if Black could floor him.

Goku had no tactic other than the Evil Containment Wave to seal Future Zamasu. When that failed, he had no issue with just beating Black up. Nothing supports that he was 'delusional'.

Goku melted half of Merged Zamasu's face. Vegeta didn't even with Trunks help. That's a far greater feat than Vegeta beating up Black. So Goku is shown to be stronger than Vegeta.

His clones were able to hurt Vegeta when he couldn't before. He even told Vegeta and Goku to get stronger, which is why he sent Zamasu to kill Future Trunks and the others.

You were thinking manga since you claimed that Black had to retreat since he was weaker than Vegeta, which wasn't the case. Also, the director of Super outright called the strongest character Beerus, not counting the fusions.
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That fact that he was actually suggesting he could take on Black is showing that he's overeager, considering what happened in the past episode. Either that, or he actually did have another strategy. (Which wouldn't take away my point about Vegeta's SSB being stronger than Goku's)

What would make him delusional is the fact that he had just lost out to Black in raw power 2 episodes ago. I was suggesting maybe he had thought of another strategy aside from Mafuba.

Yeah, I know, and I already pointed out that as being a weird moment considering it was just established that Goku was weaker than Black in terms of raw power prior to that. Before that point, it is only reasonable to assume Vegeta's SSB was stronger than Goku's SSB considering Vegeta started wrecking the same guy that overpowered Goku.

Vegeta getting hit by a technique doesn't mean Black was stronger than him in raw power. There's no way to prove at that point if Vegeta was actually weaker than Black considering their fight didn't continue.

I was thinking of the anime. My argument about it is that he had to retreat back with Zamasu. Though I can see the confusion. I mean to say that Vegeta had the advantage in raw power until he left. (Retreat can simply mean withdraw) Even after Black's anger power up, Vegeta still dodged his scythe attack with ease and it was only the clones that had them held up, but even that doesn't mean Black was stronger.
 
R

Romars202129

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
Yes I agree it's easily one of the highlights of the tournament. Choreography wasn't that interesting (until the end) but the fight choreography hasn't been that interesting in this tournament all around for the most part. What made it good is all of the "generic db action cuts" looked better and more stylized than usual.

I also love how when it's panning up from 17 being on the ground, it stops before his face and one might think "ohh he's KO", but then it quickly zooms up and he just had this blank expression with open eyes the whole time. (Just as I expected!)
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I love how much trouble they go to trying to fool you into thinking 17 is in trouble, only to have him immediately start bodying her with abandon.
18's participation is awesome as well.
Asking if he needs helps but the comment dripping with condescension.
Beautiful. Goddamn so happy they nailed both the androids perfectly.
 
F

Fulminator

Member
HeroR said:
In Episode 63. He asked Vegeta who he wanted to fight. Vegeta said Black since he was surperior to Goku and wouldn't lose to a fake. To which Goku chuckled at. And why would Goku even asked the question if he outright couldn't win?

Goku was talking about Black and Zamasu together. Vegeta didn't have to deal with Zamasu in Epsoide 63 since Goku was handling him.

He didn't retreat. He got stronger and played with Goku and Vegeta with his clones, who hurt both Vegeta and Goku. He only left to check on Zamasu. You're thinking of the manga. I suggest you watch Epsoide 64 again.
Click to expand...


We don't know if black got stronger, there is no evidence that he did because he literally didn't do anything after he pulled out that scythe. Completely unnecessary scene that only served the purpose of setting up the mafuba.
 
H

HeroR

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
That fact that he was actually suggesting he could take on Black is showing that he's overeager, considering what happened in the past episode. Either that, or he actually did have another strategy. (Which wouldn't take away my point about Vegeta's SSB being stronger than Goku's)

What would make him delusional is the fact that he had just lost out to Black in raw power 2 episodes ago. I was suggesting maybe he had thought of another strategy aside from Mafuba.

Yeah, I know, and I already pointed out that as being a weird moment considering it was just established that Goku was weaker than Black in terms of raw power prior to that. Before that point, it is only reasonable to assume Vegeta's SSB was stronger than Goku's SSB considering Vegeta started wrecking the same guy that overpowered Goku.

Vegeta getting hit by a technique doesn't mean Black was stronger than him in raw power. There's no way to prove at that point if Vegeta was actually weaker than Black considering their fight didn't continue.

I was thinking of the anime. My argument about it is that he had to retreat back with Zamasu. Though I can see the confusion. I mean to say that Vegeta had the advantage in raw power until he left. (Retreat can simply mean withdraw) Even after Black's anger power up, Vegeta still dodged his scythe attack with ease and it was only the clones that had them held up, but even that doesn't mean Black was stronger.
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Or Goku thought he could beat Black. Given what he did to Merged Zamasu, he wasn't wrong and was stronger than Vegeta to boot.

Again, melted Merged Zamasu's face, proven he wasn't delusional or being crazy.

Goku clearly got stronger since he got wreck by Black, so the assumption of Vegeta being stronger was wrong. Doesn't help that the show itself never pretended Vegeta was ahead so no one shocked that Goku overwhelmed Merged Zamasu, unlike when Vegeta beat up Black.

Unless you think the clones were stronger than Black, then the clones hurting Vegeta proves he was stronger. Black even wanted Vegeta and Goku to get stronger, which wouldn't make much sense if Vegeta alone could still wreck him.

Fulminator said:
We don't know if black got stronger, there is no evidence that he did because he literally didn't do anything after he pulled out that scythe. Completely unnecessary scene that only served the purpose of setting up the mafuba.
Click to expand...

Black outright said he got stronger after he cut a hole in dimensions and his clones hurt Vegeta. If he didn't get stronger, his clones would have done shit.

Look at Episode 64 again.
 
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