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[Tobor]

But those videos aren't 1080p.

Like they could tell the difference. Haha.

 

[Particle Physicist]

And because you're essentially trapped. Yeah, you can get around Apple, but it's become almost as much like the iPad short of being one.

Apart from OSX, iTunes and iCal, every other single piece of software I use is not from Apple.

 

[LyleLanley]

But those videos aren't 1080p.

Can't you upload 1080p on youtube? I remember watching those 4k videos on youtube a while back.

 

[dallow_bg]

Can't you upload 1080p on youtube? I remember watching those 4k videos on youtube a while back.

You can make them private as well.

 

[teh_pwn]

I just find this theory ridiculous, especially due to the fact that most PC owners use Digital Distribution or DVDs anyway. Hardly any Blu-ray games exist today and I'm suppose to believe that they will dominate the PC world in the next 2 years?

What are you talking about? A ton of PC games are ports from consoles that use DVDs. They happen to fit on steam today, but when consoles bump disc capacity they won't. Probably games will be printed on 2-3 DVDs at first and then go to blu-ray just like they did with CDs to DVD.

Edit:
Fuck it. This argument is stale and dumb. Keep thinking current trends will always continue.

 

[LyleLanley]

What are you talking about? A ton of PC games are ports from consoles that use DVDs. They happen to fit on steam today, but when consoles bump disc capacity they won't. Probably games will be printed on 2-3 DVDs at first and then go to blu-ray just like they did with CDs to DVD.

Edit:
Fuck it. This argument is stale and dumb. Keep thinking current trends will always continue.

Are you really arguing that digital distribution will die and everyone will go back to using more physical hardware for games?

 

[SlipperySlope]

Never knew you could install Windows from a USB drive.

I only ever use my DVD drive to play old games and the initial Windows install. The drive doesn't even work right anymore. Doesn't like to open a lot of the time.

 

[Marty Chinn]

No, the thumb drives belong to everyone. They just get passed around.
I don't give a shit about losing one more than I do a disc.

That seriously sounds like a hassle that I need to have enough around in distribution and to make sure that I have one on hand when I want to bring over some pictures or video to give to them or to make sure I get one back when they're done using it. USB drives cost a lot more than a DVD-R and even if I had like 10, that's a lot of upfront cost to have even if I didn't care if one or two went missing. So much more hassle than just burning a disc and handing it to them and not caring about where the USB drives are especially when stuff going to the parents tend to be a one way exchange rather than the bringing over photos back.

 

[teh_pwn]

Are you really arguing that digital distribution will die and everyone will go back to using more physical hardware for games?

When did I say that? I see a short term resurgence of optical media for pc gaming because internet speeds aren't going to keep up with capacity.

I use netflix, steam, AND optical media. Why this binary world?

 

[TheSeks]

>$30? Try <$10.

Forgetting the drive capacity. It's roughly 25 for 16 in retail places. You could get a bunch more CD/DVD's for that price and be nearly in the same ball park with flash drives give or take a few dollars and gigs.

Again: I don't think Optical drives are obsolete just yet. It may be coming, but I don't think it's time to pull the drives out just yet.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

>$30? Try <$10.

Seriously. Even in Australia, land of paying more for everything electronic, you can get an 8Gb USB stick for next to nothing.

 

[numble]

Wow ... so you're actually serious?

You actually think the Mini outsells iMac's?

No, I've never said that. I will argue that they're not used for HTPCs as much as you think. And I will argue that they've been a profitable business for Apple, and their niche in the Apple ecosystem won't go away. Not everyone needs an expensive iMac, and the Apple TV is the HTPC-like solution they want to steer people towards. Heck, they've even removed Front Row and the Remote.

Haha, I predicted Marty's response.

 

[Wiktor]

Apart from OSX, iTunes and iCal, every other single piece of software I use is not from Apple.

The ultimate goal isn;t to make you use only Apple software, but to make you buy software only from Apple's store

 

[Marty Chinn]

Are you really arguing that digital distribution will die and everyone will go back to using more physical hardware for games?

No, I think he's arguing that people don't want to wait 10, 15, or even 20 hours for a game to download when they can go to a store, buy it, and play it right away. Until bandwidth at a fast rate is widely available without caps, there's going to be room for physical distribution.

 

[Previous]

I don't see a problem with apple not including built in drives with their products when their main selling point is how compact they are (the mini/air).
Is physical media going to become completely extinct? yeahsurewhatever you can argue back and forth about that.
But if I'm looking to buy a small, compact computer, not having a built in disc drive if probably not the least of the sacrifices I'm going to have to deal with associated with its size.
And if this spreads to the rest of Apples product line, who cares? if you don't like it don't buy it. or buy an external drive, some 3rd party will still make them for that niche, just like how they still make floppy drives today.

 

[dallow_bg]

That seriously sounds like a hassle that I need to have enough around in distribution and to make sure that I have one on hand when I want to bring over some pictures or video to give to them or to make sure I get one back when they're done using it. USB drives cost a lot more than a DVD-R and even if I had like 10, that's a lot of upfront cost to have even if I didn't care if one or two went missing. So much more hassle than just burning a disc and handing it to them and not caring about where the USB drives are especially when stuff going to the parents tend to be a one way exchange rather than the bringing over photos back.

My family sends me things too. Via thumb drive so not a one way street for me.

And this is only for large video or raw pictures. We post regular pictures to accounts online for private viewing.
My mom's desktop doesn't have a disc drive either now that I think about it.

 

[LyleLanley]

No, I think he's arguing that people don't want to wait 10, 15, or even 20 hours for a game to download when they can go to a store, buy it, and play it right away. Until bandwidth at a fast rate is widely available without caps, there's going to be room for physical distribution.

These kind of things are easily avoidable though, just let people preload the game a week in advance. As for bandwith caps, nothing I can do about that.

 

[teh_pwn]

No, I think he's arguing that people don't want to wait 10, 15, or even 20 hours for a game to download when they can go to a store, buy it, and play it right away. Until bandwidth at a fast rate is widely available without caps, there's going to be room for physical distribution.

That's about right, except have the UPS dude drop off the game on release day when I get home, install it in 10 minutes, and play. Versus spending 4 days downloading on steam for a next gen 30+ GB game.

One day there will be fiber and high speed networking infrastructure for the masses, but that's not happening for at least 10 years. The United States is too spread out.

 

[Marty Chinn]

These kind of things are easily avoidable though, just let people preload the game a week in advance. As for bandwith caps, nothing I can do about that.

Preload assumes people preorder the game and have prior planning to buy that game. What happens if someone hears about a game and wants to buy it suddenly? You can't preload that. And like you said, you can't do anything about bandwidth caps so let's not trivialize the relevence of physical storage at this point in time. It's still an important medium.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

You guys are so dramatic.

I took the optical drive out of my MBP on DAY 1 and replaced it with a HDD.

You know how may times I have need of an optical drive? about once a season. so I knock the dust off of my $30 external dvd drive and that's that. optical drives aren't obsolete...but they are in my life. I don't need DVDs; I stream my videos over my network or watch blu-ray (on rare ocassion). I don't need to burn CDs. My cars have iPod inputs built in.

 

[Timbuktu]

I doubt they would drop it in the Mac Pro (if anyone cares) and it'll be another year before an iMac update, so what's the fuss?

 

[Chet Rippo]

I still miss floppy drives.

My computer still has a floppy drive.

 

[Raistlin]

No, I've never said that.

Reread your post. That actually is what you stated.

I will argue that they're not used for HTPCs as much as you think.

I will say one thing regarding HTPC's, I find this amusing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Mini#Home_theater

Mac Mini Wiki entry. In the Overview section there are only two subsections, Design and Home Theater. First sentence for the section, "The Mac Mini is widely used for home theater applications".

I think most here would find that as being a stronger anecdote than citing Amazon sales (contentious to begin with) during the release week of an Apple refresh as some sort of indicator of overall sales distribution versus iMac.

And I will argue that they've been a profitable business for Apple, and their niche in the Apple ecosystem won't go away.

Is there a point where I stated they necessarily haven't been profitable?

As for their niche ... I thought you said it wasn't a niche? Regardless, what I'm contending is that it may go away, not that I think it's definite or even dropping markedly right now

Not everyone needs an expensive iMac, and the Apple TV is the HTPC-like solution they want to steer people towards. Heck, they've even removed Front Row and the Remote.

I agree not everyone needs an iMac, but your latter point actually furthers my argument. What you seem to not see is that even if we discount external competitors, long-term, Apple's own CE-type devices (iTV, iPad) will continue to get more powerful and feature-rich. Which may make the Mini redundant or unattractive for enough people that it may not make sense to continue.

 

[Midas]

I hope they don't remove the optical drive from the iMac along with the next refresh...

 

[Particle Physicist]

The ultimate goal isn;t to make you use only Apple software, but to make you buy software only from Apple's store

Does it matter where I buy the software? You can still go to the developer's websites and buy things from there... and the Mac store also allows you to redownload software quite easily.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Forgetting the drive capacity. It's roughly 25 for 16 in retail places. You could get a bunch more CD/DVD's for that price and be nearly in the same ball park with flash drives give or take a few dollars and gigs.

Again: I don't think Optical drives are obsolete just yet. It may be coming, but I don't think it's time to pull the drives out just yet.

In 1998, not having a floppy disc was considered shocking. Yet a few years later people agreed that it was a good decision. All Apple is doing is speeding up the process for a final nail in the coffin.

Are you really arguing that digital distribution will die and everyone will go back to using more physical hardware for games?

Steam is on its last legs. Gabe better pack things up.

Also wouldn't developers just work on better compression techniques? I mean in the 7Zip and WinZip type of way.

 

[Vyer]

Apple may be the first to actually physically remove the drive, but this has been building for a long time.

We rarely buy upgrade DVDs for clients anymore at work - instead we use the handy Microsoft Anytime Upgrade keys and software built into just about every new Windows 7 machine.

And most of our clients don't bother with Office dvds any more either, preferring to just purchase it with that nice preoladed Office package Microsoft is putting on each new system as well. Or just downloading it from the site.

5 years ago I would have had a bigger problem with this, if only in pointing to a lot of the everyday applications (on the Windows side anyway) that this would cause conflicts with - such as Office. But it's pretty obvious that everyone wants to move away from this, and Microsoft is just as eager to be part of the group leading the way.

Still, there's enough usage that removing the drives altogether still would cause some significant issues....but it won't be long now.

 

[numble]

Reread your post. That actually is what you stated.


I will say one thing regarding HTPC's, I find this amusing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Mini#Home_theater

Mac Mini Wiki entry. In the Overview section there are only two subsections, Design and Home Theater. First sentence for the section, "The Mac Mini is widely used for home theater applications".

I think most here would find that as being a stronger anecdote than citing Amazon sales (contentious to begin with) during the release week of an Apple refresh as some sort of indicator of overall sales distribution versus iMac.



Is there a point where I stated they necessarily haven't been profitable?

As for their niche ... I thought you said it wasn't a niche? Regardless, what I'm contending is that it may go away, not that I think it's definite or even dropping markedly right now


I agree not everyone needs an iMac, but your latter point actually furthers my argument. What you seem to not see is that even if we discount external competitors, long-term, Apple's own CE-type devices (iTV, iPad) will continue to get more powerful and feature-rich. Which may make the Mini redundant or unattractive for enough people that it may not make sense to continue.

Wikipedia? Come on.

The current high sales of a disc-free Mac mini are not being used for HTPCs, as you point out, so what are they being used for?

I think you don't understand context. Niche in an ecosystem is different from "being niche."

Without the Mac Mini, there is no OS X device under $1000. And the Mac Mini is $400 cheaper. Without the Mac Mini, there is no OS X box without a display unless you go overboard with the Mac Pros.

Do you think there is no need for Apple to sell cheap computers without expensive displays? Are there no needs for Apple servers?

That's what I mean by niche in Apple's ecosystem--it's role in the ecosystem. It has a role that's useful to users and profitable to Apple.

 

[dallow_bg]

Apple may be the first to actually physically remove the drive, but this has been building for a long time.

We rarely buy upgrade DVDs for clients anymore at work - instead we use the handy Microsoft Anytime Upgrade keys and software built into just about every new Windows 7 machine.

And most of our clients don't bother with Office dvds any more either, preferring to just purchase it with that nice preoladed Office package Microsoft is putting on each new system as well. Or just downloading it from the site.

5 years ago I would have had a bigger problem with this, if only in pointing to a lot of the everyday applications (on the Windows side anyway) that this would cause conflicts with - such as Office. But it's pretty obvious that everyone wants to move away from this, and Microsoft is just as eager to be part of the group leading the way.

Still, there's enough usage that removing the drives altogether still would cause some significant issues....but it won't be long now.

Yeah, at work all software is on the network and installed from there.
Our field offices send data via flash drive.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Also wouldn't developers just work on better compression techniques? I mean in the 7Zip and WinZip type of way.

You think things aren't compressed already? You can only compress so far. Compression is a technique always used in game development.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Apple may be the first to actually physically remove the drive, but this has been building for a long time.

I actually find the discussion interesting because many people who have probably posted in the thread own netbooks...a product that universally lacks optical drives. You get used to not having them...then you begin to appreciate the lack thereof. Wasted space inside your computer and unnecessary weight.

Apple may be the first to unilaterally remove optical drives from their full line...but we're really only talking about 4 or 5 models of computers. They will remain on their Mac Pro's undoubtedly. I bet most PC manufacturers have at least 5 models that they sell without optical drives. I don't see the big deal.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I actually find the discussion interesting because many people who have probably posted in the thread own netbooks...a product that universally lacks optical drives. You get used to not having them...then you begin to appreciate the lack thereof. Wasted space inside your computer and unnecessary weight.

Apple may be the first to unilaterally remove optical drives from their full line...but we're really only talking about 4 or 5 models of computers. They will remain on their Mac Pro's undoubtedly. I bet most PC manufacturers have at least 5 models that they sell without optical drives. I don't see the big deal.

I think it's the notion that optical drives have no use anymore that is causing a stir. I think optical drives are used less frequently than before and there's not a need for every computer to have one, but I also think they still have significant uses for them that you can't get rid of them completely at this point in time. Just like we don't need an optical drive on our phones or tablets, you don't need one in every computing device.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

You think things aren't compressed already? You can only compress so far. Compression is a technique always used in game development.

I never said that, I said for Valve to focus their research further on compression, (something that gets better overtime). Hell they just bumped up their supplied download speeds.

 

[Raistlin]

Wikipedia? Come on.

Wait ... you're arguing 1st week Amazon sales as being a better source?

Come on. Are you actually just trolling at this point? Seems so.

The issue here is I can bring in tons of anecdotes, and you'll find some rationale for why it's crap without offering anything to counter. Even though most here would find them reasonable by themselves, let alone in aggregate ... you'll then site Amazon for the sales argument (at a launch no less) when basically everyone here agrees is a crap measure?

The current high sales of a disc-free Mac mini are not being used for HTPCs, as you point out, so what are they being used for?

How do you know they aren't? Oh ... so we do have usage data now?

I think you don't understand context. Niche in an ecosystem is different from "being niche."

Sure, they are two separate things. However stating it's niche in an ecosystem does agree with my point regarding Mac OS distribution - you know, one of the things I've been arguing?





Let me make it simple. My theory is that as a standalone desktop line ... there's a good chance it will have problems in the future.

I would contend there may come a time when it doesn't make sense to continue. However one thing in it's favor is the existence of the Mac Mini Server line. Assuming that's going okay, they may keep up the desktop variant since the form-factor is so similar.

So in the future I'd expect they'll either drop the desktop variant and just offer a server variant with the desktop OS as an option (and maybe bring in a lower-end model) ... or make them so similar that fabrication makes it a non-issue - both can exist.

What just happens looks to be an indication that they are making them so similar fabrication makes it moot ... or it's the first step into simply merging them entirely. Maybe that's the same thing - or maybe they'll reduce the SKU offerings even more. So basically as long as the servers sell, we'll probably see the desktop.

Could it be vise versa right now? Maybe, but if it is now I don't see it continuing.

 

[LyleLanley]

Wait ... you're arguing 1st week Amazon sales as being a better source?

I don't want to get involved in this argument, but you do realize that there is an older version of the Mac Mini in the number 2 spot on that Amazon sales list that has been in the top 100 spots for 407 days right?

 

[Raistlin]

I don't want to get involved in this argument, but you do realize that there is an older version of the Mac Mini in the number 2 spot on that Amazon sales list that has been in the top 100 spots for 407 days right?

Okay ... but that is certainly not without its numerous problems.

 

[Lonely1]

In 1998, not having a floppy disc was considered shocking. Yet a few years later people agreed that it was a good decision. All Apple is doing is speeding up the process for a final nail in the coffin.



Steam is on its last legs. Gabe better pack things up.

Also wouldn't developers just work on better compression techniques? I mean in the 7Zip and WinZip type of way.

In 98, 1.4MB was a pitiful amount of memory. And we had a hot method of distributing way larger amount of info faster and cheaper. Today, 7GB is not a pitiful amount of memory. Let alone the 50GB of a Blueray. And flash drives are considerably more expensive. I can burn a DVD and send files to a co-worker for a few cents. It would take hours to upload those and would eat really fast into my server bandwidth cap. A 1.4MB could barely hold a single .Doc document in 1998.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I think it's the notion that optical drives have no use anymore that is causing a stir. I think optical drives are used less frequently than before and there's not a need for every computer to have one, but I also think they still have significant uses for them that you can't get rid of them completely at this point in time. Just like we don't need an optical drive on our phones or tablets, you don't need one in every computing device.

gotcha.

It is an interesting thought, all things considered. I take comfort in the fact that external DVD drives are now (a) very small and are USB powered, and (b) extremely affordable (< $30). Hell, you can get an external, USB-powered Blu-ray drive for $110 or so.

They were of great value to me for backing up files and folders back when discs were cheaper than HDD space, but now we're in a world where we can buy 3,000 GB for $100 or so. And you get to enjoy all the conveniences that it offers (like not having to keep up with hundreds of DVDs or BDs). On the rare occasion I need a disc (say, to mail a home video too big to upload), I can always knock the dust off of the drive and put it to purpose. But I swear to God, maybe 3x/year.

 

[345triangle]

i'm okay with what they've done so far, and think it basically makes sense, but my imac is the same size as my TV and i use it as a DVD player all the time. there's not going to be any size reduction from dropping the drive, so i wouldn't really be happy if they did that. smaller computers, though? sure, why not. apple sells a $99 USB drive, and the removal of the mac mini's drive coincided with a $99 price drop, so.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I never said that, I said for Valve to focus their research further on compression, (something that gets better overtime). Hell they just bumped up their supplied download speeds.

Again, compression can only be taken so far. It's not going to dramatically improve anytime soon and you only get small gains if you do find new techniques. Compression is not the solution here.

 

[Tobor]

Wait ... you're arguing 1st week Amazon sales as being a better source?

Come on. Are you actually just trolling at this point? Seems so.

The issue here is I can bring in tons of anecdotes, and you'll find some rationale for why it's crap without offering anything to counter. Even though most here would find them reasonable by themselves, let alone in aggregate ... you'll then site Amazon for the sales argument (at a launch no less) when basically everyone here agrees is a crap measure?


How do you know they aren't? Oh ... so we do have usage data now?


Sure, they are two separate things. However stating it's niche in an ecosystem does agree with my point regarding Mac OS distribution - you know, one of the things I've been arguing?





Let me make it simple. My theory is that as a standalone desktop line ... there's a good chance it will have problems in the future.

I would contend there may come a time when it doesn't make sense to continue. However one thing in it's favor is the existence of the Mac Mini Server line. Assuming that's going okay, they may keep up the desktop variant since the form-factor is so similar.

So in the future I'd expect they'll either drop the desktop variant and just offer a server variant with the desktop OS as an option (and maybe bring in a lower-end model) ... or make them so similar that fabrication makes it a non-issue - both can exist.

What just happens looks to be an indication that they are making them so similar fabrication makes it moot ... or it's the first step into simply merging them entirely. Maybe that's the same thing - or maybe they'll reduce the SKU offerings even more. So basically as long as the servers sell, we'll probably see the desktop.

Could it be vise versa right now? Maybe, but if it is now I don't see it continuing.

That's what they just did. They now have one case design used for the server and regular Minis. The only difference is specs.

 

[CharminUltra]

Heh. Now that you guys mention it, I just realized I haven't used the DVD drives in my Macbook Pro or Windows 7 machine since last year around Christmas. I don't think I'd miss them at all.

Steam FTW.

 

[Raistlin]

That's what they just did. They now have one case design used for the server and regular Minis. The only difference is specs.

Are they basically the same MoBo and internal design as well?

Interesting. Seems like they're already doing what I was expecting.

 

[numble]

Are they basically the same MoBo and internal design as well?

Interesting. Seems like they're already doing what I was expecting.

It's the other way around--they dumped the Xserve line and just installed OS X server on Mac Minis to create the Mac Mini server line.

 

[Wiktor]

.then you begin to appreciate the lack thereof. Wasted space inside your computer and unnecessary weight.
.

Which makes perfect sense for a laptop/netbook and zero sense for a desktop, which mac mimi is

 

[Timedog]

YOU MUST HAVE THE INTERNET TO USE A COMPUTER

derp.

 

[Raistlin]

It's the other way around--they dumped the Xserve line and just installed OS X server on Mac Minis to create the Mac Mini server line.

I don't think that really says anything beyond they're going with what makes the most sense production wise.

Regardless my point still stands. I personally expect the desktop sales of the Mini will go down in the coming years. That's all I really have been saying.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Which makes perfect sense for a laptop/netbook and zero sense for a desktop, which mac mimi is

The point of a Mac Mini is to have a small desktop that is small and light enough to move and carry around. Think of a video game console. Specially the Gamecube, Wii, or PS2/PS3 slim.

I don't think that really says anything beyond they're going with what makes the most sense production wise.

Regardless my point still stands. I personally expect the desktop sales of the Mini will go down in the coming years. That's all I really have been saying.

Desktop sales in general will be going down.

Desktops are near obsolete for the common consumer. They arguably already are.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

You guys are so dramatic.

I took the optical drive out of my MBP on DAY 1 and replaced it with a HDD.

You know how may times I have need of an optical drive? about once a season. so I knock the dust off of my $30 external dvd drive and that's that. optical drives aren't obsolete...but they are in my life. I don't need DVDs; I stream my videos over my network or watch blu-ray (on rare ocassion). I don't need to burn CDs. My cars have iPod inputs built in.

I don't think anybody says that all laptops need optical drives, but it definitely seems like a high priority for a desktop or any media center device. You may only need to rip a few movies/albums every year but if you also use your computer to play movies/games, then physical media is pretty important and there's not going to be a convenient alternative anytime soon.

 

[numble]

I don't think that really says anything beyond they're going with what makes the most sense production wise.

Regardless my point still stands. I personally expect the desktop sales of the Mini will go down in the coming years. That's all I really have been saying.

I think the past growth and $100 pricedrop says otherwise, but of course it can never be proved--they go down in the same category in the financials, and it is just a software swap that turns a Mac Mini into server and vice versa, so even in your worse case scenario, the desktop variant will not disappear from the market.