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[Frankfurter]

How about fixing the mess back home before heading to the West. Goes for people from all failed states.



What morals and values, exactly? Gays flee to one of the few Western countries without gay marriage in the hope they're accepted. That's almost fucking satire.

Just because Germany doesn't have a proper gay marriage (we have pretty much the same afaik, but it's not called marriage) doesn't mean that gay people have no rights or should be concerned and think about not going to Germany.

 

[Dead Man]

How about fixing the mess back home before heading to the West. Goes for people from all failed states.



What morals and values, exactly? Gays flee to one of the few Western countries without gay marriage in the hope they're accepted. That's almost fucking satire.

Those fucking Jews should have fixed Germany instead of fleeing to other countries too, right? What an insane position.

 

[mugurumakensei]

"Well, sectarian violence is a big reason why we had to flee our ancestral homeland...but I think we're not quite ready to give up on it as a way of life."

While no one expects a suddenly displaced people to abandon all of their culture, there is going to be an enormously rough time integrating those who were content with sharia in day to day life.

That's pretty much it. The fact that they attacked another asylum seeker in practice of their religious beliefs tells you they will not be willing to integrate. As such, they should be deported.

 

[Xan Kriegor]

They got a second chance when they fled to Germany & they continue to be shitty fucked up bigots. Why should any country take in people with those values. Send them back, they don't deserve asylum.

Because if you send arms to their countries that helps destroy their countries, you should be prepared to take them in.

 

[Mysterious]

Because if you send arms to their countries that helps destroy their countries, you should be prepared to take them in.

Did Germany personally send arms there? Why is the US not taking responsibility and bringing over tens of millions of those migrants then?

 

[Condom]

Yeah I'd have a zero tolerance policy with this kind of behavior. We should explain that this behavior is unacceptable beforehand so people know what is and what is not accepted.

 

[Xan Kriegor]

Did Germany personally send arms there? Why is the US not taking responsibility and bringing over tens of millions of those migrants then?

I highly doubt there is a western country that does not profit from helping destroy the middle least in some form.

Look, I'm not saying the homophobes from those countries should be excused. I'm saying they are first generation refugees. Their children will grow up in the west and the vast majority will hold western views on the matter.

 

[Crash Station]

They aren't German morals and values, they are the values of not been a shitty human beign. Normal people don't set fire to someones feet, it's not a special morals.

I agree with you, but it's important to note some of these people are coming from countries where being gay is punishable by death. It's going to take a while for them to adapt to western values. People used to shariah are in for a very big culture shock.

But yes, I would say if it was feasible, everyone not willing to follow the laws of the country taking them in should be sent back. Don't assault someone for ripping a Koran, don't attack people of a different religion, don't burn people's feet because their sexuality doesn't align with what you've been taught is "right", etc. That won't happen though because we're already seeing it happen more often than expected and sending everyone back wouldn't be feasible.

 

[leatherhat]

Is it any surprise that gay people in Europe are increasingly supporting nationalist parties? When all the other choices are interested in the mass migration of people from less than tolerant places its easy to see why they would be concerned.

http://news.yahoo.com/rising-gay-support-means-frances-far-national-front-061644976.html

“We thought we were leaving that kind of treatment behind,” said Suliman. “But inside the refugee center, it felt like we were back in Syria.”

It wasn't the plant life or weather of Syria that was causing that treatment, it was the people. And they all came with you.

Look, I'm not saying the homophobes from those countries should be excused. I'm saying they are first generation refugees. Their children will grow up in the west and the vast majority will hold western views on the matter.

Absolutely flies in the face of what we've seen where second generation Muslims are more radical than their parents, not less.

??? At people saying send them back like Germany doesn't have neonazis and violent homophobic, racist people that were birthed there. Something needs to be done, yeah, but sending them back isn't the answer.

The old leftist adage that any country without a zero percent crime rate must accept criminal migrants, why am I not surprised? Germany must deal with German criminals, as all countries have to, but its under no obligation to import criminals who they have no responsibility for.

 

[jimbobsmells]

I highly doubt there is a western country that does not profit from helping destroy the middle least in some form.

Look, I'm not saying the homophobes from those countries should be excused. I'm saying they are first generation refugees. Their children will grow up in the west and the vast majority will hold western views on the matter.

That may hold some truth, but in the UK we've seen honour killings and FGM cases in second and third generation Asian families. The key is integration, and inviting refugees on this scale makes integration almost impossible.

 

[funkypie]

Another day, another story about how well behaved these migrants are.

Between Germans being kicked out of their homes to make way for migrants (which is a national disgrace) and their behaviour towards Europe and even their own fellow 'refugees', it really is only going to get worse.

And if Germany allows the Saudis to build those mosques, expect a shit load more radicalism.

So we have Syrian Christians being attack; gay Syrians being attacked, Shias Muslims being attacked, women being abused and the migrants being ungrateful and in some cases violence against European police etc. What next?

 

[Kurdel]

Wow that's really depressing to read.

I often think about LGBT people abroad, and how absolutely horrible their lives are.

 

[Condom]

Another day, another story about how well behaved these migrants are.

Between Germans being kicked out of their homes to make way for migrants (which is a national disgrace) and their behaviour towards Europe and even their own fellow 'refugees', it really is only going to get worse.

And if Germany allows the Saudis to build those mosques, expect a shit load more radicalism.

So we have Syrian Christians being attack; gay Syrians being attacked, Shias Muslims being attacked, women being abused and he migrants being ungrateful and in some cases violence against European police etc. What next?

You are reading too much about the bad migrants which is understandable the way media works but generalizing with 'those migrants' is not. Who the fuck cares though, we had a self proclaimed neo nazi on TV yesterday. Shit's going downhill with or without a random Gaf poster being corrected for generalizing migrants.

 

[funkypie]

You are reading too much about the bad migrants which is understandable the way media works but generalizing with 'those migrants' is not. Who the fuck cares though, we had a self proclaimed neo nazi on TV yesterday. Shit's going downhill with or without a random Gaf poster being corrected for generalizing migrants.

If it were a few bad apples I wouldn't have said anything, but it isn't.

 

[daniels]

We should not accept that kind of crap deport them if it is only a minority that behaves this crazy then there should be no trouble of deporting these groups of troublemakers.
We already have problems with the numbers, security and space, the last thing we need is imported violent crazy troublemakers that just take away the place for actual grateful refugees that don't behave like the people they run from.
Importing hate for women, gays and non Muslims.. yeah sry no we don't need that especially not now.

 

[Chariot]

We have so many refugees coming in, I say have low tolerance for those who attack others and deport them. More space for people who know how to act in a society. By god, be homophob, have an anti-gay opinion. Fine. Die Gedanken sind frei and all. But if you are threathning or even directly hurting people, get out. There are plenty of people who are able to keep themselves together. Same for anyone else who is intertolerant to something that people are allowed to do in the respective country. Thus we can take better care of the people remaining and the people among them will probably have a better time knowing that people that hate them are either deported or can manage to hold that hate. It's basically a system of fear to fight fear and dissonance, but we don't really have the time to set up and implement a better system.

 

[Replicant]

Unsurprising considering the amount of fellow Syrians he has been surrounded with.

One wonders whether if those migrant/refugee perpetrators of anti-LGBT crimes should be liable for immediate deportation from Germany.

IMO yes. Their values are clearly different from those of the western world, most of which protects LGBT people. I don't see the hardcore religious type changing anytime soon.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Part of the reason Europe -and especially Germany and Sweden- are seen as ideal locations for refugees to settle is because the level of national tolerance is generally positive. Western Europe is a society tolerant of homosexuality and, honestly, if you are seeking europe for a safer life where you aren't persecuted for your beliefs or oriantations, then maybe you should look at WHY Europe is like that. Countries are accepting refugees and migrants to save them from a horrific situation, but to take advantage of the hospitality of your adopted country is pretty fucking insulting.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

If it were a few bad apples I wouldn't have said anything, but it isn't.

What you're hearing and reading about are the few bad apples.

Surely you realise this?

 

[Chittagong]

A few thoughts

1 - Hate crimes and violent crimes most certainly would qualify for deportation and denial entry. This scum will need to be on trial for it of course, which takes a while. I don't really understand what some posters mean by saying that doing homofobic crimes doesn't lead to loss of your right of asylum. It absolutely does.

2 - One important reason why Middle East has become the grim place people escape is because of the intolerant and violent culture. If we let people hold on to those ways when they come here, our continent is a grim place after a while too. Second generation doesn't fix it, on the contrary. The only way to keep Europe the place where people can even find asylum is to forcefully deny the hateful ways of immigrants by the means of informing, sentencing and deportation.

 

[Condom]

If it were a few bad apples I wouldn't have said anything, but it isn't.

Luckily you know the numbers and have visited refugee centers and all?

I went twice, they were on our uni campus and all were nice people. I also know that numbers are exaggerated for a fact at least in the Netherlands (lots of official reports conflicting with what the media or politicians claim).

Does this mean I think they are all (edit: as in those I've not personally met aka in general) nice people? No but I don't need to generalize to form an opinion. Maybe you can try that too.

 

[Xan Kriegor]

Absolutely flies in the face of what we've seen where second generation Muslims are more radical than their parents, not less.

I am aware of this problem. They solution is integration. I've grown up with muslim people that held radical views because "that's what they're supposed to". They're uneducated and they grow up with people who's behaviour magnifies theirs. There is no one to tell them that their believes are bad or give them a reality slap.

That may hold some truth, but in the UK we've seen honour killings and FGM cases in second and third generation Asian families. The key is integration, and inviting refugees on this scale makes integration almost impossible.

I agree. Integration is already very difficult as it is, this huge inflow of people will take a lot of effort.

 

[Ikael]

2 - One important reason why Middle East has become the grim place people escape is because of the intolerant and violent culture. If we let people hold on to those ways when they come here, our continent is a grim place after a while too. Second generation doesn't fix it, on the contrary. The only way to keep Europe the place where people can even find asylum is to forcefully deny the hateful ways of immigrants by the means of informing, sentencing and deportation.

But multiculturalism, man! Local bigots are uncool, alright, but importing bigots from abroad is soo damn zanzy! And there's no problem because every single aspect of every culture is compatible one with another! Like ultra-harcore religious conservadurism and a LGTB friendly society! There's totes multicultural fusion possibilities there!

 

[SolidusDave]

I don't see the hardcore religious type changing anytime soon.

Definitely.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33999801

An Afghan refugee ripped some pages from the Koran to flush them down the toilet
-> cue refugee lynch mob forming that also then attacked the security and German police who protected the guy from getting killed.

The 20-50 people involved are just a small amount of the 1800 people in that camp obviously, but that's still unacceptable.
(well actually - according to the German State prime minister defiling the Koran was the inexcusable behavior here...)

 

[Xan Kriegor]

Definitely.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33999801

An Afghan refugee ripped some pages from the Koran to flush them down the toilet
-> cue refugee lynch mob forming that also then attacked the security and German police who protected the guy from getting killed.

The 20-50 people involved are just a small amount of the 1800 people in that camp obviously, but that's still unacceptable.
(well actually - according to the German State prime minister defiling the Koran was the inexcusable behavior here...)

Would you say that same mob would do the same after they've been in the country for years and got to know the western culture? The refugees came from a country where
A. Mobbing up against police is normal
B. Attacking Quran defilers is normal

Added to that, they were at a place where they could mob up and where they where among their own. The situation they were at facilitated in their group behaviour.

You cannot expect them to change their way of doing overnight.

 

[astroturfing]

well, that's one way to weed out those who need to be sent back. what kind of a fucking monster attacks fellow refugees, when they have reached a safe place? and over homosexuality.. unbelievable.

i'm very lenient when it comes to helping people who escape war (i've met a couple refugees so far at my job and they've been wonderful), but i draw the line about right here. every single homophobe or other form of bigot (Christian haters, atheist haters etc) needs to be denied asylum. i can't take a person's plight seriously if he's ready to fucking light someone on fire if he happens to be gay.. sorry but no, enjoy prison here or go back and join Isis or whatever.

 

[SolidusDave]

Would you say that same mob would do the same after they've been in the country for years and got to know the western culture? The refugees came from a country where
A. Mobbing up against police is normal
B. Attacking Quran defilers is normal

You cannot expect them to change their way of doing overnight.

I would certainly hope not, but I could still see something similar happening if e.g. local communities (that keep clan-like structures etc.) are forming in select parts of the cities, which makes immigration extremely hard.
Not to mention that some radicalized people simply do not care which is why we still have honor killings every now and then even if those families have lived in Germany/Europe for many years.

 

[daniels]

Would you say that same mob would do the same after they've been in the country for years and got to know the western culture? The refugees came from a country where
A. Mobbing up against police is normal
B. Attacking Quran defilers is normal

You cannot expect them to change their way of doing overnight.

We are talking about a minority of migrants that behave that crazy and we only have limited amount of resources and space for refugees this means there is absolutely no need, reason and justification in which anyone should accept this unusual behavior of a crazy minority.
For every minority troublemaker there are hundredths of grateful non crazy refugees still waiting in line, i think our resources are better spend helping them.

 

[Xan Kriegor]

I would certainly hope not, but I could still see something similar happening if e.g. local communities (that keep clan-like structures etc.) are forming in select parts of the cities, which makes immigration extremely hard.
Not to mention that some radicalized people simply do not care which is why we still have honor killings every now and then even if those families have lived in Germany/Europe for many years.

Urban segregation of western people and non-integrated non-western people is an issue that is not only characterized by muslims living together. It's an issue for all kinds of ethniticities. If you want someone to adapt to your ways, you separate him from the herd.

We are only talking about a minority of migrants that behave that crazy and we only have limited amount of resources and space for refugees this means there is absolutely no need, reason and justification in which anyone should accept this unusual behavior of a crazy minority.
For every minority troublemaker there are hundredths of grateful non crazy refugees still waiting in line, i think our resources are better spend helping them.

I have people in my family that used to have extremist views on western society and would loathed non-sharia laws (they were extremists, even by my standards). After being in the country for more than 20 years, of the - now former - extremist people is now of the most reasonable, serene people I know that is also perfectly fine with his daughter wedding a western man. A night and day difference with the difference with the person he was when he entered the country. The key is integration and exposure to western ways and culture.

 

[VegiHam]

You cannot expect them to change their way of doing overnight.

What's the alternative though? "oh okay, you can be homophobic, just for a bit while you settle in. Euro Law applies from next Tuesday!"

Not really keen on welcoming a bunch of new citizens who want to shift societies progress backwards, tbh. Déport the ringleaders, make an example of them so the rest will learn fast how to act here. Or you know, be tolerant and start seeing the local LGBT population under attack in a few years.

 

[neorej]

Would you say that same mob would do the same after they've been in the country for years and got to know the western culture? The refugees came from a country where
A. Mobbing up against police is normal
B. Attacking Quran defilers is normal

Added to that, they were at a place where they could mob up and where they where among their own. The situation they were at facilitated in their group behaviour.

You cannot expect them to change their way of doing overnight.

How long would be acceptable? We have people with these religion-induced violent homophobia living their entire lives in The Netherlands, fourth and fifth generation descendants from migrants.

What would you propose?

 

[daniels]

I have people in my family that used to have extremist views on western society and would loathed non-sharia laws (they were extremists, even by my standards). After being in the country for more than 20 years, of the - now former - extremist people is now of the most reasonable, serene people I know that is also perfectly fine with his daughter wedding a western man. A night and day difference with the difference with the person he was when he entered the country. The key is integration and exposure to western ways and culture.

I am glad it worked for you and your family, no one is saying its impossible its just not that common, all that jazz about second generation children being more radical than their parents and all that.
All i am saying is there are more people in need than we have resources and space to help, so no one actually needs to accept violent fanatics when there are countless other non crazy people still waiting for help.

 

[Sioen]

send those motherfuckers back.

 

[Replicant]

I have people in my family that used to have extremist views on western society and would loathed non-sharia laws (they were extremists, even by my standards). After being in the country for more than 20 years, of the - now former - extremist people is now of the most reasonable, serene people I know that is also perfectly fine with his daughter wedding a western man. A night and day difference with the difference with the person he was when he entered the country. The key is integration and exposure to western ways and culture.

Why should an entire society have to accept violent people who refuse to integrate until years and years later? In the mean time, should the citizens put up with being abused, feeling unsafe, and uncomfortable in their own country?

 

[Xan Kriegor]

What's the alternative though? "oh okay, you can be homophobic, just for a bit while you settle in. Euro Law applies from next Tuesday!"

Not really keen on welcoming a bunch of new citizens who want to shift societies progress backwards, tbh. Déport the ringleaders, make an example of them so the rest will learn fast how to act here. Or you know, be tolerant and start seeing the local LGBT population under attack in a few years.

How long would be acceptable? We have people with these religion-induced violent homophobia living their entire lives in The Netherlands, fourth and fifth generation descendants from migrants.

What would you propose?

Why should an entire society have to accept violent people who refuse to integrate until years and years later? In the mean time, should the citizens put up with being abused, feeling unsafe, and uncomfortable in their own country?

I'm not saying people should be infinetely indolent with those people and I also don't know how much they they should get to change themselves. I'm saying is that it's not unusual that a group of people that just fled a conflicted region, that stays among their own people, does not adopt western views directly. It takes time. I sense that you guys are reluctant to give them the time given their actions. But don't forget the meddling of the west in the region.

Why should an entire society have to accept violent people who refuse to integrate until years and years later? In the mean time, should the citizens put up with being abused, feeling unsafe, and uncomfortable in their own country?

They shouldn't. And the key to prevent that is to not group them together. How on Earth would an extremist muslim person in a western area where a lot of western or integrated people live cause a stir? The prolems arise when you put these people in areas together. Societal segregation. That's when people feel unsafe, when they have to walk through a whole neighborhood of these people.

 

[Sinfamy]

They're not fleeing Syria, they're bringing it along with them.
Clean your dirty hands and start fresh as a new person.
Your bigoted views and culture is partly responsible for the mess you ran away from, don't bring it with you.

 

[VegiHam]

I'm not saying people should be infinetely indolent with those people and I also don't know how much they they should get to change themselves. I'm saying is that it's not unusual that a group of people that just fled a conflicted region, that stays among their own people, does not adopt western views directly. It takes time. I sense that you guys are reluctant to give them the time given their actions. But don't forget the meddling of the west in the region.

I don't really see how it being the west's fault in a sort of macro sense obligates us to tolerate homophobia? Yes, I'm reluctant to give them time to change their views. How many people need to be beaten up for their sexuality while we gradually wait for them to acclimatise over a few generations? I understand why they have those views and where they come from and so on; but they need to integrate promptly. It's not the fault of the local gays that the military industry caused this; and they shouldn't be the ones to suffer the consequences. It's not as simple as 'oh well it's Europe's fault you get what you deserve.'

 

[kurisu_1974]

You are reading too much about the bad migrants which is understandable the way media works

If anything, I find the media is really try to diminish most of these facts "please understand" style. We need to respect their somewhat different culture, right?

A. Mobbing up against police is normal
B. Attacking Quran defilers is normal

But they were in danger in their own country, I'd think this mentality is something they fled from, and that they'd embrace more modern values. Why did they flee if they themselves hold extremist views?

 

[jimbobsmells]

But they were in danger in their own country, I'd think this mentality is something they fled from, and that they'd embrace more modern values. Why did they flee if they themselves hold extremist views?

They weren't fleeing extremist views. They were fleeing war.

 

[Xan Kriegor]

I don't really see how it being the west's fault in a sort of macro sense obligates us to tolerate homophobia? Yes, I'm reluctant to give them time to change their views. How many people need to be beaten up for their sexuality while we gradually wait for them to acclimatise over a few generations? I understand why they have those views and where they come from and so on; but they need to integrate promptly. It's not the fault of the local gays that the military industry caused this; and they shouldn't be the ones to suffer the consequences. It's not as simple as 'oh well it's Europe's fault you get what you deserve.'

I'm not vouching for groups of people that are antagonised by these extremists to 'suck it up' while these people get time to intigrate. I don't want those extremists near the gay people at all until they have adopted the western view on society and tolerance. And no, it's not "Europe's fault they get what they deserve", but Europe has a moral obligation (imo) to take in these people.

 

[VegiHam]

I'm not vouching for groups of people that are antagonised by these extremists to 'suck it up' while these people get time to intigrate. I don't want those extremists near the gay people at all until they have adopted the western view on society and tolerance. And no, it's not "Europe's fault they get what they deserve", but Europe has a moral obligation (imo) to take in these people.

Oh. Well in that case we basically agree on everything then! Just as a gay dude I obviously have concerns about this sort of thing.

 

[Bel Marduk]

The bigots should go fight for ISIS if this is what they value so much.

 

[mugurumakensei]

And no, it's not "Europe's fault they get what they deserve", but Europe has a moral obligation (imo) to take in these people.

No country has the moral obligation to take in violently religious people. The West only has the obligation to offer refugees safe haven provided the refugees obey the implicit social contract of asylum which is obey our laws. The second someone violates that social contract, no country is under any obligation to provide respite from that point forward.

 

[Crash Station]

They shouldn't. And the key to prevent that is to not group them together. How on Earth would an extremist muslim person in a western area where a lot of western or integrated people live cause a stir? The prolems arise when you put these people in areas together. Societal segregation. That's when people feel unsafe, when they have to walk through a whole neighborhood of these people.

Volume makes this completely unfeasible with only Germany taking in millions of refugees. Europe already has a major problem integrating Muslims. Communities exist with little exposure to western ideals where its residents see Shariah as truth, at least based on the incompatible views expressed in official polls (cheaters should be stoned to death, being gay punishable by lashings, apostasy justifies killing your own child, etc). You end up with shitheads like these making up the majority even among second or even third generation children.

What you're proposing absolutely works if American Muslims are anything to go by, but without something big happening (every single European country taking in refugees with a strict quota per community, spreading out the ones that are already there, etc), integration will be incredibly difficult if not flat out impossible.