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FakeGAF 7: The Dark Thirst Rises

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Lili, sometimes it's really hard to not fall in love with you!

Metaphorically!

You're too kind. Thank you!

The rest of your argument holds weight and makes a lot of sense, but this is a flawed segment of it. People - LOTS of people simultaneously - are prone to liking or approving of things that are harmful in some way in the long run. There is some substance to Float's argument of artistic integrity superseding mass appeal. I do agree that indie auteurs aren't the say-all, do-all, be-all of standards, nor should they be, but I don't think Float is treading into that territory yet.

Can you give me an example in media?

Because sure, some things are popular because they're easy and people are lazy. That's where our current obesity epidemic comes from in large part. But what about liking something with mass appeal is harmful? How is it harmful, for example, to like the Fast & Furious movies or enjoy Call of Duty games?



edit:
I think I need to withdraw for a bit. I'm going to go ride my bike and clear my mind.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Can you give me an example in media?

Because sure, some things are popular because they're easy and people are lazy. That's where our current obesity epidemic comes from in large part. But what about liking something with mass appeal is harmful? How is it harmful, for example, to like the Fast & Furious movies or enjoy Call of Duty games?
Because when those become the standard for development they harm other, less popular designer choices. Call of Duty is the perfect example, since it's hold to sprint, trickling psuedo-MMO multiplayer progression has eked its way into shooters that it has no place in, such as Halo.

By your argument's standards, this is a good thing as CoD set the new standard for FPS, bringing in a new, mainstream audience to the fold. But what about the audience that preferred Halo for its more traditional roots? What about the original vision for the game? Hasn't it been compromised by this new set of standards? I think the answer is that it has.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you entirely. I enjoy mainstream AAA games and what they do as much as anyone else. But I think the idea that mass appeal is universally good is inherently flawed. I don't want QTEs, microtransactions, multiplayer, and choice based design in every game that I play, especially not in franchises that have no place in adding these things.

The fault is not at all with what mass appeal games are, but with the mindset that devs - especially companies that often enforce market trends for one reason or another - have surrounding their success.
 

Vazra

irresponsible vagina leak
Why are there couples with joint accounts on FB and instagram? Also why when you try talking with one of them its always the other one that responds? Sigh.

there aren't even that many bald space marines.

i hate that its just regulated to that specific genre.

every genre, all the time.

but a black guy in. and white people bitch about it.

I remember someone at college complaining about a black character being a lead in a game and went saying something along the lines that there was enough black people in NBA, Football and GTA San Andreas. Lets say basically everyone had something to say about it and he stop talking about it.
 

jb1234

Member
I've been lurking here a while, this thread is really interesting putting a face on all gaffers :D Though, realpics seem a bit sparse as of late, no?

Just got myself fake bookshelf wallpapers ^^

Gnq5bSI.jpg

Welcome!

(You're hot.)
 

zeemumu

Member
Because when those become the standard for development they harm other, less popular designer choices. Call of Duty is the perfect example, since it's hold to sprint, trickling psuedo-MMO multiplayer progression has eked its way into shooters that it has no place in, such as Halo.

By your argument's standards, this is a good thing as CoD set the new standard for FPS, bringing in a new, mainstream audience to the fold. But what about the audience that preferred Halo for its more traditional roots? What about the original vision for the game? Hasn't it been compromised by this new set of standards? I think the answer is that it has.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you entirely. I enjoy mainstream AAA games and what they do as much as anyone else. But I think the idea that mass appeal is universally good is inherently flawed. I don't want QTEs, microtransactions, multiplayer, and choice based design in every game that I play, especially not in franchises that have no place in adding these things.

Yeah I see what you're saying. Those series that get so big that other series begin to emulate them to stay alive/get that money, and end up making them worse as a result because they become inferior copies to a popular game instead of a unique thing so they die as a result and also flood the market with clones.

I do agree that you can't argue in favor of going against the grain and then disapprove of the option of having a female Link because that's a bit of a contradiction and devalues your argument.

But don't make a game that tries to do the same thing as a different popular series unless you're sure you can do it better, or at least different enough that no one cares. Otherwise you'd be better off making something new. But if you're the one making the popular one and you're still getting the numbers then from a business standpoint there's no point in changing it. You could just keep the formula while sprinkling in some new stuff. That's what most Nintendo games do.
 

FloatOn

Member
Mass appeal is the best. That's not even what I've been arguing up until this point, but now that you bring it up I will. You can't objectively measure how good a game is. You can only measure how much people like it, how many people like it, and how much money it makes. So the only way a game can be called good is if people like it a lot, a lot of people like it, or it makes a lot of money. Those are the things that are good about games. So yes, mass appeal makes something the best.

And I'm sorry if that upsets your hipster sensibilities. I'm sorry you're over in your corner not having fun with the rest of us. Your opinions aren't worth more than the opinions of other people. Everyone's opinion has the same merit. Therefore, mass appeal is an extreme indicator of what the best is.

It might not have the tightest gameplay. It might not have the most compelling script. It might not have the most memorable fight encounters. It might not have the cleverest puzzle design. You might be able to pull anything from it and find something to complain about. That's irrelevant. If people like it, people like it. That's what makes something good.

And don't give me shit about common denominators or how something in mass appeal can't ever reach the heights of whatever indie auteur effort crap you're having a wet dream about. Because the same way you get weepy emotional over a Hans Zimmer concert there are people whose life dream was to be at the Zelda orchestra. There are people so in love with the Zelda franchise they just draw fanart all day, or get tattoos and do cosplay. There are people more passionate about Zelda than you've ever been passionate about anything.

Also, you can't seriously argue that going against the grain is good when you're the grain that's being gone against. The trend is generic male character. Wow. Such risk. Very bold.


Sol said investing time in a female option would be a waste of developer time, and you agreed with that point. So we showed you that no, a lot of people would be very excited by the inclusion and would make it worth the developer's while. Maybe the Zelda developers have wanted a gender option for ages and didn't realize people would be hip to it. Maybe it never occurred to them before or they couldn't think of a good way to do it, but the rousing of crowds jogged their minds until they thought of a good design for it. Bottom line, if they put it in the game because they think they found a good way to do so, you can't fault them for that.

And the same goes for old Link. Except obviously, of course, duh, old Link would be much harder to fit into the game's narrative than female Link, and also obviously it's not something most people want. Which you knew, you're just being facetious because this bothers you on some irrational level and you don't have any cogent arguments to make.

Oh boo hoo. People want an option in a game that's easy to implement and doesn't change how the game plays or unfolds. If you want to use the male instance and name your character Link and name your horse Epona, good for you. Not everyone wants that experience. You can love Zelda games without being attached to Link's gender.

Did I somehow personally offend you by talking about a video game? Or are you just having a bad day?

Your vitriolic rant wasn't needed. But your explanation and defense of mass appeal spoke volumes on your character.

As long as we are throwing around choice pejoratives... I bolded some select things that you had to say about me so let me say this about you: I picture you as a 20 something privileged white girl that speaks like a republican twice her age. Essentially Gordon Gekko from the film 'Wall Street'. Talk to me about how "greed is good" sometime. I've heard it before.

Now to the highlighted point. I wasn't actually arguing for the shaved head space marine trend. I was arguing for keeping the visual identity of a character I grew up with. I later conceded this point when you so articulately explained the nature of Link's name. I did this because I'm an adult and am capable of admitting when I have been corrected on something.

yeah okay. I concede further on this. This explanation actually makes sense.

I just grew up with my video game icons being one way and I hate for them to change for superfluous reasons

see: this post for the full context for those just joining the conversation

so in summary: you were being hostile for no fucking reason and your defense of mass appeal was some cliche any republican would prattle off. Trump pls deport.
 

Vazra

irresponsible vagina leak
Probably so. And I should probably hold my tongue but honestly her rant was so out of left field that my response was 100% appropriate.
Shouldnt you just keep your composure and respond without any of that? What does it accomplish going there besides making more conflict?
 

jb1234

Member
Probably so. And I should probably hold my tongue but honestly her rant was so out of left field that my response was 100% appropriate.

I like both of you and wish you would get along. Naive thinking, perhaps but I like being an optimist sometimes.
 

FloatOn

Member
Shouldnt you just keep your composure and respond without any of that? What does it accomplish going there besides making more conflict?

she needed to know that it was not okay to trivialize my view or experience.

especially offensive was that jab at me and my real life emotional experience at a Hans Zimmer concert. But I guess I shouldn't expect her to be moved by art at this point.

it makes me not want to talk about my life at all because this is like the second time my real life stories have been used as a weapon against me in this thread
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
All I have to say about this malarkey is that Blood is a much better shooter than 99.9% of today's shooters despite being released in 1997, which is why I'm mad excited about Doom's campaign. It basically looks like a faster and more vertical version of that.
 

Vazra

irresponsible vagina leak
Exactly.
We're all friends here, I love you all.

And the thing is that we can all have different opinions and discuss them without turning to that style of posts. Sure it might get heated at times but people should know when its time to stop posting to gain composure or self edit before posting instead of letting the emotions get on the way. Either side going that route will make the point get their trying to get across lost because everyone will focus on that conflict being created and the beauty of most things is that there is a lot of things that is up to interpretation, debate and preferences and not set in stone so there is no need to get heated.

All I have to say about this malarkey is that Blood is a much better shooter than 99.9% of today's shooters despite being released in 1997, which is why I'm mad excited about Doom's campaign. It basically looks like a faster and more vertical version of that.
I have yet to play it but it seems nice.

she needed to know that it was not okay to trivialize my view or experience.

especially offensive was that jab at me and my real life emotional experience at a Hans Zimmer concert. But I guess I shouldn't expect her to be moved by art at this point.

it makes me not want to talk about my life at all because this is like the second time my real life stories have been used as a weapon against me in this thread
You could get your point across about the trivialization without going that route tho. I know it might be hurtful or offensive but you need to do better. Resorting to those comments doesnt get anything across and comes more as bitterness than anything else and Im sure there are things you both could get across but this isn't the way to go.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
All I have to say about this malarkey is that Blood is a much better shooter than 99.9% of today's shooters despite being released in 1997, which is why I'm mad excited about Doom's campaign. It basically looks like a faster and more vertical version of that.
Man Doom's campaign is so good but it reminds me that I suck at Doom

Should I drink tonight? I want to get in super good shape but it's also Friday.... HMMMMMMMMM....
 

jb1234

Member
You could get your point across about the trivialization without going that route tho. I know it might be hurtful or offensive but you need to do better. Resorting to those comments doesnt get anything across and comes more as bitterness than anything else and Im sure there are things you both could get across but this isn't the way to go.

He's angry. I don't blame him. Seth, I recommend that you take a break from the thread, for a bit, cool off and then come back. Maybe take a walk? That's what I do when I'm upset.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I forgot your name was Seth, that is such a badass name

#2 choice for a future son's name after Alexander

Actually everyone in here has an awesome real name
 

Vazra

irresponsible vagina leak
He's angry. I don't blame him. Seth, I recommend that you take a break from the thread, for a bit, cool off and then come back. Maybe take a walk? That's what I do when I'm upset.

I know but thats why I said on the upper part the take a break from posting to cool off before those post really.

I forgot your name was Seth, that is such a badass name

#2 choice for a future son's name after Alexander

Actually everyone in here has an awesome real name

If I ever have a daughter (I doubt) I will call her Morgana and if its a boy Lucas.
 

MutFox

Banned
And the thing is that we can all have different opinions and discuss them without turning to that style of posts. Sure it might get heated at times but people should know when its time to stop posting to gain composure or self edit before posting instead of letting the emotions get on the way. Either side going that route will make the point get their trying to get across lost because everyone will focus on that conflict being created and the beauty of most things is that there is a lot of things that is up to interpretation, debate and preferences and not set in stone so there is no need to get heated.

Yep, I know I've definitely stopped myself from posting in the past.
As A: Cause conflict
Or B: I'll regret it later

Though in the end, we're not always going to agree,
but we're still gonna like each other.

So really, we should never insult each other.
That goes to all that have done it.
 

zeemumu

Member
Speaking of boring, I'm done for spring quarter so Ive got a bit of downtime until summer quarter. I've decided to give one last push towards legitimately trying to improve things.
 
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