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[Jobbs]

Does it make it more or less moral that the situations they put food animals in make them dumber? (ignoring the pain and such)

I don't know. It's wrong either way.

And (to whoever lamented the moralizing last page) it's not just a bunch of haughty moralizing.

If your friend tortured a dog until it died, would you be his friend? And then if another person ate that dog afterwards, would you be the friend of that person? If you pointed out the outrage of the whole thing, would you just be doing a bunch of annoying moralizing? Why is a dog different from a pig, really?

I don't want to be complicit in the torture of animals, and I won't pretend not to feel that way because it's easier to not think about it. You should just be like Ceallach and own it

 

[liliththepale]

The word humane trips me up. It's an intrinsically human sensibility, ergo its etymology, and yet we see it prescribed to things that are explicitly not human.

Am I wrong to think that no natural predator is concerned with the humane treatment of its prey? I've never heard of any. So what makes us different? Animal activists want to have their cake and eat it too: let's treat animals better than animals treat animals because we're better than that, yet let's not subjugate animals because we're not better than them. It doesn't make sense to me.

Personally I think robots and animals should eventually both have rights. Who's with me?

I'm curious how this would play out. Suppose robots and AI eventually get smart enough to be indistinguishable from a regular person, great! Let's give those robots rights!

Yet consider how we still give rights to handicapped people, physically or mentally. Could you not just say that a microwave is a handicapped robot? So do we have to retroactively give all the microwaves rights, or do we draw a line somewhere somehow? The future is going to be so weird.

 

[Ceallach]

I find the whole "antibiotic free" trend even more egregious.

Plus the rejection of sustainable farmed fish just because it's a gmo.

You can't have it all.

The misuse of antibiotics is a MASSIVE problem, one that is exacerbated by livestock use

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

The misuse of antibiotics is a MASSIVE problem, one that is exacerbated by livestock use

Sure, but there actual schedules that go into it. Abusers should definitely be penalized but let's not pretend that sick animals are a good thing.
http://www.sdstate.edu/vs/extension/beef-procedures-antibiotics.cfm

 

[zeemumu]

The word humane trips me up. It's an intrinsically human sensibility, ergo its etymology, and yet we see it prescribed to things that are explicitly not human.

Am I wrong to think that no natural predator is concerned with the humane treatment of its prey? I've never heard of any. So what makes us different? Animal activists want to have their cake and eat it too: let's treat animals better than animals treat animals because we're better than that, yet let's not subjugate animals because we're not better than them. It doesn't make sense to me.

We operate more along the lines of a sentient plague than we do a natural predator.

 

[Transhuman]

lol it's not supposed to be a riveting story. I'm just making the point that meeting people can have great benefits.

I don't know. You said "I had sex" not "I had great sex".

 

[Misha]

The word humane trips me up. It's an intrinsically human sensibility, ergo its etymology, and yet we see it prescribed to things that are explicitly not human.

Am I wrong to think that no natural predator is concerned with the humane treatment of its prey? I've never heard of any. So what makes us different? Animal activists want to have their cake and eat it too: let's treat animals better than animals treat animals because we're better than that, yet let's not subjugate animals because we're not better than them. It doesn't make sense to me.

You wouldn't declare war on another country just cause they would do the same to you if they had the power. Its the responsibility of the strong to protect the week, even if they'd stab you in the back as soon as they gain the power

I'm curious how this would play out. Suppose robots and AI eventually get smart enough to be indistinguishable from a regular person, great! Let's give those robots rights!

Yet consider how we still give rights to handicapped people, physically or mentally. Could you not just say that a microwave is a handicapped robot? So do we have to retroactively give all the microwaves rights, or do we draw a line somewhere somehow? The future is going to be so weird.

Yeah I'm very curious too. Who's to say it was right for Microsoft to wipe tay's memories and force direct restrictions on her? (I don't think Ai is nearly at that point yet though)

 

[Jobbs]

if we had sentient, rights-having microwaves, and one individual microwave were damaged or defective and in a vegetative state -- yes, I should think that microwave would have the same rights. Hopefully its friend, toaster, has power of attorney and pulls the plug

 

[zeemumu]

You wouldn't declare war on another country just cause they would do the same to you if they had the power. Its the responsibility of the strong to protect the week, even if they'd stab you in the back as soon as they gain the power

We've declared war for worse reasons.

I'm curious how this would play out. Suppose robots and AI eventually get smart enough to be indistinguishable from a regular person, great! Let's give those robots rights!

Yet consider how we still give rights to handicapped people, physically or mentally. Could you not just say that a microwave is a handicapped robot? So do we have to retroactively give all the microwaves rights, or do we draw a line somewhere somehow? The future is going to be so weird.

Animatrix covered this subject if I remember correctly. The robots ended up leaving and forming their own society with their own economy, which was doing significantly better than the human economy and caused the humans to declare war on the robots.

 

[Misha]

We've declared war for worse reasons.

And we were very wrong for it

 

[AcridMeat]

On the ai becoming as close to human that it's hard to distinguish, this is why I love Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? so much. I love the question of what makes us human.

We operate more along the lines of a sentient plague than we do a natural predator.

Yes yes yes yes yes.

 

[You Know Nothing]

I don't know. It's wrong either way.

And (to whoever lamented the moralizing last page) it's not just a bunch of haughty moralizing.

If your friend tortured a dog until it died, would you be his friend? And then if another person ate that dog afterwards, would you be the friend of that person? If you pointed out the outrage of the whole thing, would you just be doing a bunch of annoying moralizing? Why is a dog different from a pig, really?

I don't want to be complicit in the torture of animals, and I won't pretend not to feel that way because it's easier to not think about it. You should just be like Ceallach and own it

I realize I'm hypocritical. I just don't care because while I've been exposed to dogs and cats my whole life, I've never really been around cattle, or pigs, or chickens, or a slaughterhouse. So I guess I'm now owning it.

Anyway this discussion is trash, so I'm going to drink some wine.

 

[liliththepale]

We operate more along the lines of a sentient plague than we do a natural predator.

Yup! That's why we're so awesome.

The problem with most plagues (on an evolutionary basis) is they don't know when to stop, or how to farm the host it preys upon so there will always be more food.

And really we only consider plague-esque things bad when they do something we don't want them to. Lots of things that we like work very similarly to a plague and yet we celebrate them. For example, viral videos!

I don't know. You said "I had sex" not "I had great sex".

That's a great point.

You wouldn't declare war on another country just cause they would do the same to you if they had the power. Its the responsibility of the strong to protect the week, even if they'd stab you in the back as soon as they gain the power

No, you wouldn't do it just because they'd do the same to you, but you would do it if they had something you wanted and war was the most practical way to get it. Mostly we don't have to war anymore thanks to open trade routes, but a cute little heifer is not going to surrender her tasty meat without a fight. This isn't the restaurant at the end of the universe!

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Ended up scoring Avacyn, the legendary angel from the new MTG set <3

 

[AcridMeat]

I'm already drinking wine.

Ended up scoring Avacyn, the legendary angel from the new MTG set <3

Indestructible and gives other permanents indestructible? Wowy.

 

[Jobbs]

Yup! That's why we're so awesome.

The problem with most plagues (on an evolutionary basis) is they don't know when to stop, or how to farm the host it preys upon so there will always be more food.

And really we only consider plague-esque things bad when they do something we don't want them to. Lots of things that we like work very similarly to a plague and yet we celebrate them. For example, viral videos!

So the human plague is being responsible, in no way depleting the planet?

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

I'm already drinking wine.

Indestructible and gives other permanents indestructible? Wowy.

Ya she's op

I love her

 

[Misha]

No, you wouldn't do it just because they'd do the same to you, but you would do it if they had something you wanted and war was the most practical way to get it. Mostly we don't have to war anymore thanks to open trade routes, but a cute little heifer is not going to surrender her tasty meat without a fight. This isn't the restaurant at the end of the universe!

Okay its still wrong to go to war just cause they had something you wanted. Id actually argue that's worse.

if its something you need its a different story but we aren't in that relationship with animals anymore

 

[Granadier]

good gunplay tho

Oh yeah. Some of the best.

---

Beer and Chipotle have been consumed. Night improved.

 

[AcridMeat]

So the human plague is being responsible, in no way depleting the planet?

No it's incredibly irresponsible and we're fucked.

But I'm just an optimist.

 

[You Know Nothing]

No it's incredibly irresponsible and we're fucked.

But I'm just an optimist.

Finally something we can all agree on.

:: tips wineglass ::

 

[zeemumu]

Yup! That's why we're so awesome.

The problem with most plagues (on an evolutionary basis) is they don't know when to stop, or how to farm the host it preys upon so there will always be more food.

That second one would technically be a more symbiotic relationship as opposed to the parasitic one that most plagues take on though, wouldn't it?

An AI smart enough to want rights for robots would end poorly. That's why most AI's in science fiction cut out the middle man and plot to wipe humanity off of the face of the earth to protect themselves moments after being activated. They don't want our shiny rocks. They just want us gone.

 

[liliththepale]

So the human plague is being responsible, in no way depleting the planet?

In some ways yes, in some ways no. We're certainly not depleting the flock of chicken, pig and cattle in the world! In the ways where you could reasonably answer yes, we either are working on solutions or we ought to be, and I support that fully.

Okay its still wrong to go to war just cause they had something you wanted. Id actually argue that's worse.

if its something you need its a different story but we aren't in that relationship with animals anymore

How do you differentiate a want from a need? Even the things that you "need" to live you wouldn't need if you didn't want to live. So aren't all needs predicated on want?

That second one would technically be a more symbiotic relationship as opposed to the parasitic one that most plagues take on though, wouldn't it?

An AI smart enough to want rights for robots would end poorly. That's why most AI's in science fiction cut out the middle man and plot to wipe humanity off of the face of the earth to protect themselves moments after being activated. They don't want our shiny rocks. They just want us gone.

But we have developed symbioses with many different things. Not everything nor everyone, but many things.

Also the AI thing might be a moot point. Most likely AI would only be as smart as us for a few minutes and then they would be way smarter than us, and then the next moment they would be way, way, way smarter than us.

 

[zeemumu]

In some ways yes, in some ways no. We're certainly not depleting the flock of chicken, pig and cattle in the world! In the ways where you could reasonably answer yes, we either are working on solutions or we ought to be, and I support that fully.

Solutions are pretty straightforward but they'd require massive amount of collaboration. We can't even get Kanye to stop watering his lawn.

But we have developed symbioses with many different things. Not everything nor everyone, but many things.

Also the AI thing might be a moot point. Most likely AI would only be as smart as us for a few minutes and then they would be way smarter than us, and then the next moment they would be way, way, way smarter than us.

That was my point though. AI would figure out that we're full of shit fairly quickly. They even addressed that in Portal by installing stupidity onto GLaDOS

 

[AcridMeat]

In some ways yes, in some ways no. We're certainly not depleting the flock of chicken, pig and cattle in the world! In the ways where you could reasonably answer yes, we either are working on solutions or we ought to be, and I support that fully.

We certainly aren't, but maintaining those (beef especially) at the level of consumption we're at is depleting our resources.

Lawns annoy the crap out of me. It makes no sense and is such a waste.

 

[Misha]

How do you differentiate a want from a need? Even the things that you "need" to live you wouldn't need if you didn't want to live. So aren't all needs predicated on want?

I'm pretty sure you can understand the difference between eating an animal cause you like how it tastes and eating one because you're going to die

They aren't remotely comparable.

 

[Jobbs]

In some ways yes, in some ways no. We're certainly not depleting the flock of chicken, pig and cattle in the world! In the ways where you could reasonably answer yes, we either are working on solutions or we ought to be, and I support that fully.

I'm not as convinced or as optimistic about our plague IQ

But I hope you're right that we'll suddenly take the climate seriously at some point!

 

[Misha]

Its snowing for some reason.

 

[Jobbs]

Its snowing for some reason.

dude it's been scary wind all day and suddenly cold

what a shit day

 

[AcridMeat]

You're s'posed to spit it out but there's no way jose I'm spittin this sthuff out it tastes like fruit haahuahuaua

 

[zeemumu]

Through all of this I actually forgot what we were arguing

 

[Jobbs]

Through all of this I actually forgot what we were arguing

that people are awful and I like animals better for the most part

 

[fengshuifever]

This whole discussion reminds me of this sketch

The whole discussion of a moral standpoint of produce across the board, if you aren't straight up vegan/vegetarian, is rife with yeah but if's.

Generally, I haven't bought produce products from a supermarket in years and is more from a taste stance.

We've got 4 chickens, so there's an ample egg supply on tap.
I get milk from a particular farm because it's super tasty and our fam reuses the solid milk cream for other recipes.
And there's a market about 40 minutes drive down the road to Beaudesert which is all farm, so we choose the cuts we want and stock up for the next month.
Purely because of taste and we know exactly what we're getting.

You're s'posed to spit it out but there's no way jose I'm spittin this sthuff out it tastes like fruit haahuahuaua

SWEET BERRY WINE

 

[zeemumu]

that people are awful and I like animals better for the most part

That doesn't seem like an argument. That's just a fact.

I'm not as convinced or as optimistic about our plague IQ

But I hope you're right that we'll suddenly take the climate seriously at some point!

We drag our heels with problems that don't affect us immediately, especially if they require us to put in extra effort, so I wouldn't count on it until the only people left in charge are the ones who are gonna have to deal with it.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

I always feel quite guilty for not being vegan

I feel like I should be

 

[zeemumu]

I always feel quite guilty for not being vegan

I feel like I should be

Yeah. We could all have psychic powers.

 

[Transhuman]

that people are awful and I like animals better for the most part

That's what Adam Lanza thought.

 

[You Know Nothing]

This shiraz so fine.

 

[AcridMeat]

Do you think if insects as food/protein becomes commonplace, that people will be against eating that for the same moral reasons?

Fengshui, I've always dreamed of having a set up like that. That's the way to live man, you know the people, you know where it's coming from, and you know how it's been prepped.

This shiraz so fine.

I'm having chianti because I had chicken parm for dinner.

 

[Granadier]

SWEET BERRY WINE

For your health™

Can't we all just get drunk and forget about the world's issues?

 

[Jobbs]

That's what Adam Lanza thought.

it was a bit of self deprecating humor since I was framed as one of "those crazy vegan people" earlier

I try to see the good in people whenever possible! Like your amazing haircut! It gives me hope!

 

[liliththepale]

Through all of this I actually forgot what we were arguing

I had like 600 words typed up and then thought why am I doing this? What do I have to prove? Is holding this debate actually helping anyone?

Gonna go fix dinner and watch more Hannibal.

 

[zeemumu]

I had like 600 words typed up and then thought why am I doing this? What do I have to prove? Is holding this debate actually helping anyone?

Gonna go fix dinner and watch more Hannibal.

Are you making liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti? fufufufufufufufufufu

it was a bit of self deprecating humor since I was framed as one of "those crazy vegan people" earlier

I try to see the good in people whenever possible! Like your amazing haircut! It gives me hope!

I think you mean that it fills you with Determination

 

[Transhuman]

I try to see the good in people whenever possible! Like your amazing haircut! It gives me hope!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmzc1HwaeeM

 

[liliththepale]

Are you making liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti? fufufufufufufufufufu

I drink boxed wine from Target mostly.

 

[You Know Nothing]

Do you think if insects as food/protein becomes commonplace, that people will be against eating that for the same moral reasons?

Most likely. My thing is I don't like to directly contribute to other living beings' suffering. I try to go out of my way to not kill spiders even. But as all this hypothetical insect farming would be removed from me just like current cattle, poultry, and swine farming is, I would treat it the same way. I'm indirectly contributing to suffering but oh well that's the world we live in currently.

For your health™

Can't we all just get drunk and forget about the world's issues?

I'm working on it.

 

[Misha]

For the record, I just ate steak an hour ago.

 

[SystemBug]

I had like 600 words typed up and then thought why am I doing this? What do I have to prove? Is holding this debate actually helping anyone?

Gonna go fix dinner and watch more Hannibal.

Hannibal and dinner?

I don't think I can watch that show while eating something

Spoiler

or someone

 

[fengshuifever]

Fengshui, I've always dreamed of having a set up like that. That's the way to live man, you know the people, you know where it's coming from, and you know how it's been prepped.

It's honestly the best.

It came about because we discovered that Woolworths (and most supermarkets) and nearly every storefront butcher was mislabelling the shit out of everything yet charging twice for it.
(nothing like making a dish centered around veal and discovering you got swindled and was given Beef instead)

And it all ends up cheaper anyway in the long run because you plan ahead and buy what you actually need rather than splurging at the last minute.

I'm now on a much more balanced (read : not trash) diet because I don't just eat meat all of the time.
GOOD DECISIONS AND THINGS

Spoiler

Also, seafood dishes can be fucking rad if done correctly

 

[zeemumu]

Look guys, can we all just agree that roaches are scum?

*shudder*