TheEndOfItAll
Neo Member
Not much different from alternating "confirm" and "cancel" button mappings.
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Final Fantasy VII Remake: Nomura Confirms Combat is Action Based
- Thread starter Exentryk
- Start date
Not much different from alternating "confirm" and "cancel" button mappings.
Yeah, I don't think VIIr will have XV's combat.
I was kind of hoping for a mix of turn-based and action. Maybe something like the Mario RPG series where timing matters when blocking and attacking. I think even better would've been a Legend of Legaia (sp?) or Breath of Fire V system where you can do a certain amount of actions and then your AP is out.
Either way, I'm trying to be positive about this. I'm sure the company is aware how big of a deal this remake will be to a lot of people. I got a lot of nostalgic enjoyment from Crisis Core and that game had poopy combat, imo, so I think it'll still be a treat even if you aren't the biggest fan of action combat.
They should still really try to nail the look and feel of combat though.
I was kind of hoping for a mix of turn-based and action. Maybe something like the Mario RPG series where timing matters when blocking and attacking. I think even better would've been a Legend of Legaia (sp?) or Breath of Fire V system where you can do a certain amount of actions and then your AP is out.
Either way, I'm trying to be positive about this. I'm sure the company is aware how big of a deal this remake will be to a lot of people. I got a lot of nostalgic enjoyment from Crisis Core and that game had poopy combat, imo, so I think it'll still be a treat even if you aren't the biggest fan of action combat.
They should still really try to nail the look and feel of combat though.
Yes, they reworked the fine mechanics. The basic idea's however, Noctis teleporting around everywhere, swapping between a bajillion weapons, all remained. They were presented as part of the combat system from the earliest trailers, even when the title was still being called XIII Vs.
These basic concepts even had they worked right, were always a bad fit for a lengthy game. They're classic Nomura concepts that prioritize flash over substance. Yes, the team that came on after Nomura was released from the project, tried to make the idea's their own. But, they were still his ideas, and they couldn't really be called good idea's. I might also note, I don't actually have a problem with action based combat system's for RPG's. I simply have no faith in Nomura being able to deliver good action based combat. Nomura has never been able to develop a combat system that didn't come down to simply spamming attacks. As such, I have no idea why you'd expect that change now!
they were still in denials because no solid proof from the developers, well until now. though we have to admit the past interviews were pretty vague concerning the battle system. I can see that it left them (pro-TB) hoping that it would turn out to be turn based.
I think turn based will still be used by small indie games or a niche games. most AAA titles don't go well with turn based imho.
edit: I have to point out that I enjoyed most turn based games so don't accuse me of turn based haters. even my profile picture is from atelier game that I thoroughly enjoyed and plat'd.
1 - No he didnt, not only was the combat system completely different to what it ended up being, the team on XV made several revisions on its combat based on demo feedback, are you actually trying to pass off this rhetoric that because nomura created a character with specific abilities, that the combat system made by the XV team is somehow his fault, do you have any idea how dumb that sounds
2 - wtf, where do you get all these ideas from, this is some huge loads of conjecture, on stuff that a load of games did before and after OoT
You're trying to pass something as truth based on whatever random thought goes through your head, not on actual facts
How could they be in denial, the gameplay video shows the battles, one of the first things stated by them was that the battle system had bases from dissidia, KH, and FF7 proper, and their past interviews were never vague, their statements where always in the line of action combat but trying to make a system where traditional fans can enjoy too, or bringing more strategic elements in a more action oriented battle system, i dont know how people thought these statements meant a ATB or turn based kind of battle system
So, the adjusting the ideas, somehow make it so they aren't Nomura's? That seems a rather silly notion. Also, again, I cited FFXV not only because of the connection to Nomura, but because it was an example of a game with a lengthy story campaign that utilized an action based combat system that lacked any sort of real depth or nuance. If FFXV had been a 10-hour game, I wouldn't have cared much. Across 30 to 40 hours, the lack of depth becomes glaring. VII will be worse, as it's being touted as numerous full-length titles. Unless they use a battle system with some sort of depth, that's a car wreck waiting to happen. Though I will reiterate that Noctis' teleporting and weapon swap combo's are still bad gameplay ideas.
As for Kingdom Hearts. In one part of your sentence, you claim I'm making this up. In another part of your sentence, you seem to be claiming that it's fine because numerous games borrowed from OoT. As you appear to be horribly confused, allow me to grant you some clarity.
No, I'm not making this up, the gameplay elements Kingdom Hearts borrowed from the Zelda franchise are well documented. No, that doesn't make Kingdom Heart's in any way a bad game. Yes, many developers have borrowed large swaths of the combat system developed for OoC. I have no problem with them doing this, as the system works pretty well. However, when a developers best combat system is one that is mostly, (though not entirely,) copied from another game franchise, it calls into question how well they can develop their own combat systems.
Heck, I'll be honest, though it may be derivative, I'd consider it good news if the FFVII remake turned out to use something very similar to KH's combat. At least then it'd be a little less likely that the combat system would end up a total train wreck.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Yes. What wouod be the point in remaking it and keeping it the same? Turn based RPGs are dead in the AAA space.
Yes, they dont make it nomuras, the only thing in your tirade that can be said thats nomuras is noctis and his teleporting/weapons floating around, theres a huge difference between creating a character with specific abilities, and a battle system that uses that character, so i dont have a clue how you can make such a connection between two completely different things
Yes because somehow a battle system made by a completely different dev team, with different ideas from nomura and his team, means that the battle system that no one has seen properly displayed yet, equates to it being shit, what kind of logic is that
My statement wasnt properly worded, but here goes again, i'm calling into question your rhetoric that somehow, the existence of a lock-on, which while yes was mostly pioneered by OoT and became an industry standard well before KH was a glint on nomuras eye, suddenly means that khs combat system is some kind of copy of OoT battle system, like what is with the false equivalence
So you think any opinion that doesn't line up with yours is "shitty drive-by posting?" That'll get you far.
Professor Beef
Banned
Yes, it's a remake. Not a remaster.
Via Purifico
Banned
I love VII to death, it was my first RPG but some of you have some serious rose colored glasses on the strategy that went into that battle system. Plenty of games after it had better turn based battle systems.
The battle system was only a small part in a very big puzzle and remakes don't exactly mean making the same game with just better visuals. Remakes can pretty much be whatever the devs decide as long as the story remains largely the same.
The battle system was only a small part in a very big puzzle and remakes don't exactly mean making the same game with just better visuals. Remakes can pretty much be whatever the devs decide as long as the story remains largely the same.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
I wonder how people would feel if they did a full on remake of demons souls, but changed the game to random encounters with menu-based combat.
Unknown?
Member
It's like making the next Tales of game turn based when it's known for its action combat.
Via Purifico
Banned
Nah, some of us love the original and embracing this remake until we see more that changes our minds. For me, the story and its characters were a huge part in why it was great.
People love different things about it.
Professor Beef
Banned
So you didn't like the story, characters, music, etc as much as the fact that the game was turn-based?
The Dude
Member
Sure, but turn based gaming is awesome... Most of the best rpgs of all time are turn based. There's absolutely zero reason for them not to keep it original.
Not really, at least not to me, and FF7 is my favorite game ever, note that i'm not saying the battle system is bad, just that its not the main point on why i love FF7
I'd place more importance on the materia system, the huge variety of materia, the materias progression/leveling, and total free customization of characters first, than wether the battles are ATB/Turn based, and those arent even the main points why i like FF7, with story,characters and setting having higher importance, followed by the amount of other stuff you can do there, like minigames, and optional stuff, also, the battles in FF7 arent particularly deep, theres room for it, but the "deepeness" is completely independent of a ATB/turn based system(materia system, customization)
well said.
vii battle had never been the strong point imho. so any change to it is a welcome addition.
No, it's going to be shallow, flashy, and repetitive, because all of Nomura's games are shallow, flashy, and repetitive. The guy is a hack and should be allowed to quietly retire so he can sit around and doodle in his sketch-book all day. He'd probably be happier that way!
So, even though these games play almost identically in terms of combat. Kingdom Hearts' battle system should be considered something original because....
And yes they do play very similarly. I was playing Kingdom Hearts and Wind Waker at the same time, so I took great note of their similarities and differences. Zelda games typically have more side systems due to all the various tools in them. Kingdom Heart's has slightly streamlined magic use and an option to target groups a bit more loosely than in WW.
That's it, that's the sum of the differences in these two games combat. If you still want to insist that Kingdom Hearts is somehow, wholly unique and original, well you can do that, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into your delusions.
The Dude
Member
I just find it hard to believe that anyone who was a day 1 FF7 fan would be fine with such a huge change. People are sticklers for keeping things original, I mean people freak the fuck out over who shot first in star wars... Because they're passionate about the original. I don't get why gamers are sometimes so easy to just accept such massive changes.
Yea like someone said let's get a dark souls 1 remake and change it to turn based combat.
Yea like someone said let's get a dark souls 1 remake and change it to turn based combat.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Some of you guys act like Nomura shot your dog or something
I feel the same way, the materia system is the most important element of FFVII's gameplay, as long as that system remains as compelling as it was in the original I'll be happy.
For me the thing that makes FFVII amazing, are its world and it's characters, it's so incredibly charming and alive.
Because people like games for specific reasons and like different things and put various aspects of said game on different levels, thats why some people want RE2 remake to be similar to RE4/5 with a 3rd person perspective, while i want that Remake to be similar to REmake, bigger and better, closer to the OG as possible, i'll quote myself on this
Professor Beef
Banned
It's probably because the reason I liked FF7 was because of the entire package, and not JUST because of the turn-based combat.
Also, Han shot first.
The Dude
Member
Zen, but that is your opinion the turn based combat didn't add much, I happen to value it as many others do as well. To me it's just more of a selfish pov to justify why it should be changed when not realizing that the change in itself is something others simply don't want or didn't ask for.
Would you like the materia system reworked? I'm guessing no, it'd be like me wishing it was revamped just because I felt it was just ok. That wouldn't be a cool pov because the idea of a remake is to remake it, not overhaul it.
Would you like the materia system reworked? I'm guessing no, it'd be like me wishing it was revamped just because I felt it was just ok. That wouldn't be a cool pov because the idea of a remake is to remake it, not overhaul it.
The Dude
Member
As did I, but why is it OK that they can overhaul the combat but I'm sure you'd want nothing else to change as in story, materia system etc?
Yes, I'm willing to wait and see how the materia influenced action combat feels, I like action combat and I like turn based combat, but changing the story in a drastic way or removing the materia would be crossing the line, I don't think you could call it a remake anymore.
The Dude
Member
I feel the same, but I feel taking a classic combat system out is crossing the line as well.
I'll play it regardless, but it's still absolutely stupid for them to do it and unneeded.
Exentryk
Member
Nomura's interview with Famitsu about his time at Magic Monaco - https://www.famitsu.com/news/201703/09128601.html
Nomura says Barret can use cover as well. Gunners have a special element, but he can't go into details about it just yet.
There might be more stuff in there, if anyone wants to translate.
Nomura says Barret can use cover as well. Gunners have a special element, but he can't go into details about it just yet.
There might be more stuff in there, if anyone wants to translate.
Professor Beef
Banned
Because FF7 is not defined by having turn-based combat.
It kind of is though...it's about the whole package, which the combat is a big part of.
It's cool if you don't like turn based or are happy with the changes to the game, but a remake, this is not. For me, it's about the whole package and the concept of a remake. Add some stuff in, make quality of life improvements, but don't change something that was in fact fundamental to the original, and then call it a remake.
I'm willing to wait and see how its combat is gonna play out, even if its materia system is reworked, and you can expect some changes, mainly on the command materia for example, not immediately call foul on something no ones had a proper look on, story is a little more tricky for me, since i would completely abhore some shit from the compilation in it
like Genesis, or changing zacks death to the one in CC
Bottom line is that i'm gonna buy the game no matter what happens
The Dude
Member
And you're the judge of that?
That's absolutely absurd to just pick and choose what a game is defined by. It was defined by all of it.
News flash, not everyone cares about turn-based combat like you do. I adore FF7, I've played FF games since 1999, and I could take or leave turn-based combat easily since I don't care about it anywhere near as much as practically everything else. With FF7, for example, I care about the story, the characters, the world, the feeling of scale, the visual design, the weapons, the enemies and the unique Materia concept before I would care about keeping a turn-based combat system that frequently boiled down to tapping X for half the game. The Souls games on the other hand, despite their unique stories and locations are primarily about the intricacies and variance of their detailed combat system, making that comparison really, really dumb.
No, it really, really wasn't. People at large see the FF games as defined by their stories and characters for the most part, they've always been heavily story-focused. The combat systems were good for their time too, but taking out the story and characters and leaving the combat would result in a far less engaging work than the reverse, no matter what you TBC obsessives think everyone believes.
I mean really, if you like a game's story, the story is going to stick with you and you're going to be of the opinion it's defined by its story.
Ditto art.
Ditto music.
Ditto gameplay mechanics. Whether it be progression, combat system, minigames, whatever.
Whatever speaks most to a person is what defines the game for them, especially more than a decade down the line. You guys are splitting hairs over a subjective thing.
Ditto art.
Ditto music.
Ditto gameplay mechanics. Whether it be progression, combat system, minigames, whatever.
Whatever speaks most to a person is what defines the game for them, especially more than a decade down the line. You guys are splitting hairs over a subjective thing.
No, everyone is wrong and only my opinion is right.
/s
Anyway I don't see how VII's battle system being turn based is what it's defined by when VIII, IX, and other games in the series had it too? Honestly, the battle systems being turn based has been the least memorable things about FF battle systems for me. The new things they add from game to game like materia, the junction system, dressspheres, etc. have all had a greater impact on my enjoyment of the games and none of those things are really tied to those games being turn based.
Professor Beef
Banned
I'm not the one who compared this to Han/Greedo shooting first, which is a sign of insanity to begin with.
Yet KH2 is considered one of the greatest ARPGs of all time. I have no reason to worry about the combat with a game directed by this man.
Dissecting pieces of the package and then saying "oh it's fine without this bit, it's still FF7, but this other bit doesn't matter" seems a little bit odd. It's the whole package, what the game presented as a whole, and keeping that intact, you know, with it being sold as a remake.
I get it, TBC is old and people are happy to see it go, but there are those of us who actually prefer it.
I think if this was a discussion for the next mainline FF game, and that had action combat, then cool. I don't get what I want from modern FF games and I'm really okay with that as I have DQ now. But to say you're remaking something and then completely overhaul one thing that people really recognise as part of that package, I'm just not down.
I get it, TBC is old and people are happy to see it go, but there are those of us who actually prefer it.
I think if this was a discussion for the next mainline FF game, and that had action combat, then cool. I don't get what I want from modern FF games and I'm really okay with that as I have DQ now. But to say you're remaking something and then completely overhaul one thing that people really recognise as part of that package, I'm just not down.
The Dude
Member
Glad to see someone else who has sense and understands the idea behind a remake.
The thing is, there are parts of the gameplay I would be mad if they changed. Just giving the characters wholly new weapons, wildly changing the way Materia functioned story-wise, etc. would be really off. But the turn-based stuff, I feel, was never really a huge deal. Part of this is probably because, due to the technology of the time, I seriously doubt anything else was ever an option. Real-time combat feels like finally getting to see what the battles REALLY looked like - I mean, I seriously doubt the creator's intent was that Cloud and the others spent all their fights standing in a line and taking turns, anymore than they intended for the characters to look like Lego figures. Something vaguely like what we've seen of the remake was almost certainly what they had in mind from the beginning, regardless of what the purists think.
Its not that i'm happy or sad to see it go, its that i dont care if i control stationary characters or fully controllable ones in its combat system, i think theres other systems that i cared more than that in the original, and frankly, whats been shown of the battles in the remake looks awesome to me
There was no way Square could remake this game without upsetting a single fan, which is why they're choosing to remake or re-imagine VII, whichever phrase you'd prefer, in whatever way they see best fit.
It's all in the reveal trailer voice over, just another reason that reveal trailer is probably the greatest game trailer ever made.
It's all in the reveal trailer voice over, just another reason that reveal trailer is probably the greatest game trailer ever made.
Zen, I totally understand that, and I'm certainly not trying to derail anyone's hype of this game. If it looks appealing to you, regardless of if you played the original or not, then I think that is great and introduces more people to the game/story arc.
I just personally feel that FF7 existed as a certain package, and should remain that way. I wouldn't be happy if they massively altered any of the core systems, not just the turn based combat.
I just personally feel that FF7 existed as a certain package, and should remain that way. I wouldn't be happy if they massively altered any of the core systems, not just the turn based combat.