I don't think most people are arguing against turn based in principle. P5 is coming out after all. But the thing is a lot of people didn't think turn based combat defined FF7 specifically
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Final Fantasy VII Remake: Nomura Confirms Combat is Action Based
- Thread starter Exentryk
- Start date
If you think I'm going to stop complaining about how we're getting a re-imagining instead of a remaster, you'd best think again.
I don't get the mindset though. its happening like this, and it was always going to happen like this as long as there was ever a possibility of a remake.
Complaining just to complain must be really tiring right? Its not going to change just because you rant and rave about this game not being the original. It was never intended to be.
potatohead
Member
And a lot of people think it was extremely good gameplay and/or integral to the JRPG experience. What's your point. It's just what some people want, and some people are OK with not having.
BlueBomberX
Banned
That's funny because most people complain about the opposite.
If you want the same exact game, then just play the one you have. That way, everyone gets what they want.
Professor Beef
Banned
i think you've forgotten what site you're on
Matrix XII
Member
Kinda sad to hear this but I'll be positive and go in with an open mind.
It's not particularly tiring. Expecting the worst and demanding the best is basically what consumers are supposed to do.
If you want a completely different game, then just go play one of those. I want to play Final Fantasy VII but not have it look like poop.
There are plenty of different kinds of JRPGs. My point is simply in trying to explain that a lot of people defending action battle system in FF7R don't simply hate turn based because its old or outdated or whatever. Its simply not a system in FF7 that they feel was integral to the experience.
FF7 is a lot of things to a lot of people in particular, and your not going to satisfy everyone
Which is why it makes the most sense to focus on things that can be considered actual improvements instead of making a bunch of sidesteps.
Even then, what you consider a side step, a lot of other people may consider improvements on the whole from a 20 year old game.
This is why i try not to argue for and against stuff in this game. They are not going to satisfy you, and i'm sure eventually there will be something that won't satisfy me. I just want the chips to land how they may and examine the completed product based on how the creators intended
A remaster did come out. Check the PS4 store or steam.
Professor Beef
Banned
Semantics, but updating the game in any way, shape, or form is an improvement purely on a technical level. Unless you think the game had no flaws, which is a lie.
I mean, how many remakes can you name where a large number of people complained that the gameplay wasn't changed enough? Surely not as many as when the opposite of that happened.
Yeah, I never really had much faith that Square-Enix wouldn't screw up the remake, but that won't stop me from trying, you know? If no one ever complained about Zelda, we'd probably never get Breath of the Wild.
Still looks like poop.
The FF9 port was better.
I'm okay with technical improvements. Things like prettier graphics, higher resolution and framerates, quality of life improvements, reworked translation, bugfixes.
Replacing the entire gameplay system is not a straight improvement. Some people might enjoy it more, but that doesn't make it better. Just different.
potatohead
Member
There's nothing wrong with that. It's the subset that are actually saying that ATB is too outdated or can't be done in a big AAA game, and that "the only choice for FF7R had to be action based." That's irritating as fuck and disrespects an entire genre of games that has offered so much to gaming as a whole for decades and continues to offer so much even to this day.
This is why it's so annoying to some of us that people make generic statements that JRPGs which are ATB are outdated and it can't be done in a big game anymore. Like Dragon fucking Quest is coming out also in the same time period and will be doing exactly that.
It's fine when people state their preferences, or don't mind FF7R is going to be action based. Like I don't give a fuck anymore about it. I just don't want the FF XV gameplay that is slow and unresponsive, I'd rather have full KH gameplay style instead, but that's just me, if we're going action based.
What is not OK though: It's not OK to call ATB based gameplay outdated. Basically half the people commenting like that or trying to shit on ATB gameplay t is readily apparent they don't even know what the fuck ATB gameplay is or what it means or how it has evolved over time at all.
It's not even really about if ATB gameplay was integral to the game experience for X subset of people, fine, it wasn't. Doesn't mean that translates into ATB gameplay is shit.
The issue is people blatantly talking shit out of their ass and trying to pass this off as some fashionable excuse for a reason not to include ATB or turn based gameplay in a game anymore like an older JRPG, like they have any idea what they are talking about when they are remarking that ATB gameplay in FF7 is too old or not appropriate anymore for a big JRPG, when this is factually incorrect given what the exact same publisher is doing with DQ.
Just play the original then.
Already did tho.
GlassAwful
Member
I think this completely action based take would be more welcomed if there was also an optional Fallout 3/4 esq V.A.T.S system that would allow you to slow down time for a short period and queue up a series of moves for your team members.
I honestly have a hard time understanding why this isn't the route the series is taking given their terrible implementation of real time combat so far and the series legacy as turn based. Just build in the option, it's already been laid out for them in other Western RPG games, the game's they seem so desparate to ape.
I honestly have a hard time understanding why this isn't the route the series is taking given their terrible implementation of real time combat so far and the series legacy as turn based. Just build in the option, it's already been laid out for them in other Western RPG games, the game's they seem so desparate to ape.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
I'm still not sure why some people can't just wait until we see actual long pieces of gameplay with concrete information about the system before completely writing it off.
What are you talking about? I'm saying that the disdain I'm reading in this thread specifically for the original game's combat is due to the combat supposedly not being anything special or amazing. Not that its an overall disdain for turn based in general which is what the other poster was claiming. I'm not even saying if I agree with the opinion or not . I'm only making observations as to what I've been reading as I haven't even played FF7 yet I'm interested in playing the Remake.
What are you talking about? I'm saying that the disdain I'm reading in this thread specifically for the original game's combat is due to the combat supposedly not being anything special or amazing. Not that its an overall disdain for turn based in general which is what the other poster was claiming. I'm not even saying if I agree with the opinion or not . I'm only making observations as to what I've been reading as I haven't even played FF7 yet I'm interested in playing the Remake.
potatohead
Member
『Inaba Resident』;231930425 said:
Yea, and I'm telling you that's straight up wrong and you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to this conversation which has been going on for years on GAF and on the internet broadly. You can't suddenly come into the conversation mid stream a decade later and say "oh well that's not what they meant for years." That's bullshit.
There is an element of overall disdain for turn-based or ATB gameplay in pretty much every FF VII remake thread long before the announcement of this game, and including this thread too. This has been a ridiculous conversation for years.
I cannot explain why you aren't detecting it. There are posts literally making the statement exactly to that effect regularly on each page and the only explanation I have is you're just not reading them or are willing to excuse them.
『Inaba Resident』;231930425 said:
The onus is on Square Enix to instill confidence in fans, not for fans to justify their decisions for them.
I hope Trails of Cold Steel 3 shifts to an action based battle system. I mean baddies are already visible on the field right? An ya can initiate battles by manually pressing a button to slash the baddies, no menu needed! The previous games battles were broken stupidly easily with the right orbament setups anyway, an I'd bet moving to an action system would fix that right up an make fights less of a joke! Plus ya wouldn't have the "press start to skip battle animations" thing anymore. 60 hours of game is pretty good but if the battles took longer the playtime shoots up an with it the more moneys worth ya get from it!
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
Too bad that's not what I'm saying. I said that's what I've been reading in this thread. Have I seen some people saying silly stuff like turn-based is outdated? Yeah, but it doesn't seem like its the overwhelming majority or anything in this thread which is what I'm claiming. Not only that, but this thread is full of silly stuff from both sides of the argument.
potatohead
Member
『Inaba Resident』;231931679 said:
You said you felt other people in this thread weren't saying it, when they clearly were saying it repeatedly. In this thread. In other similar threads. I didn't say "you" said it. I said you are wrong in saying that "other people are not saying it." That has been the conversation in this thread and many other threads, not just other threads.
Don't change the fucking context. I don't have time for that shit, don't waste my time or yours with that petty moving goal posts nonsense.
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
You know, actually reading back on my posts, I think you're probably right. My argument doesn't appear as consistent as I thought it was. Apologies.
Perhaps you are the one who is confused?
10-2 already took ATB and did it better, by setting up different charge times for abilities. 12 evolved on that by going seamless field to battle, which allowed for positioning and aggro mechanics. The gameplay of the original FF7 is not even 'some' of the pinnacle of turn-based ATB combat anymore. It is hard to take you seriously when you say things like that, because it gives the impression that you haven't played anything but FF7-9, and didn't bother with subsequent FF or other games outside of FF games.
Grandia 3 for instance is far above FF7 in terms of an active, turn-based combat system. In terms of non-ATB turn based combat, Shadow Hearts 2 surpassed FF10. For action combat, the Tales games and TriAce games of years ago are still head and shoulders above FF15. FF is a series better known for its characters, world, and story rather than its gameplay.
FF7's combat is a relic. Present day or even years-old turn-based games are better and more fun to play.
I just think that it was incredibly wishful thinking to assume that the FF7 remake was going to be the exact same original game, but with a modern HD look. That's a viewpoint mired in nostalgia and resistant to evolution and change. It prevents developers from exercising any degree of creative freedom at all, and it also reflects a very 'skin-deep' love for FF7. Because apparently if it "looks like poop" you totally cannot handle that, so you have to have "pretty looking" thing with all the trappings of game design from 20 years ago.
racketpunch
Member
『Inaba Resident』;231906689 said:
The fuck does that question have to do with anything? FF7 is a great game with its legacy battle system. Why can't you guys wrap your heads around that some of us want the same game with an updated look? Now there's a big chance this game will suck.
Expecting a remake of a game to play roughly like the original game is being "resistant to evolution and change."
Okay.
I guess Grim Fandango Remastered, Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen/HeartGold/SoulSilver/OmegaRuby/AlphaSapphire, the Monkey Island Special Editions, Final Fantasy III/IV DS, REmake, Perfect Dark XBLA, Super Mario 64 DS, Ocarina of Time 3D, etc. were all just nostalgic fever dreams.
Lol man, I feel bad that you're not going to get your dream game.
Now just move on with your life and avoid future FFVII threads, for the sake of everyone.
Ocarina of Time 3D pretty much was my dream game.
But you can feel free to stop expressing your opinion instead if you want to.
Preach.
It means that what you want isn't going to happen. That's how life works.
And if the game is good in spite of your complaining about arbitrary things being changed, i hope you don't try and spoil the fun in spite of that just because its not what you thought the game should be like.
racketpunch
Member
LOL that's how life works...
Thanks for the tip bro. Not sure why you would even assume something like that from me either. You ok over there?
No, things are not fine. I have a lot of serious stuff going on and i'm pulling my hair out.
But just in terms of this specific topic, FF7R is how its going to be..i think people should wait until the game is out and judge it then.
We're wondering why you're so happy about keeping to bother people about stuff that it's not going to change.
They decided they're going to go in a direction, they're not going to change it because of you.
Can I ask you what is your goal? What are you trying to achieve? You're just going to keep post negatively in order to let them know that you're pissed?
racketpunch
Member
Sucks to hear and I hope things go better for you.
Anyways, all I'm saying is I wouldn't mind the old game with updated graphics and maybe some QOL changes. But if we're getting a new battle system then I hope it turns out to be good because this is one of my favorite games of all time.
So you're going to be incredibly childish and troll threads?
You don't have to announce you're unhappy with the game in every thread. We get it.
This is a remake. It was never meant to be a "remaster." Fans did not ask for a remaster, they asked for a remake and that's what we're getting.
The original game still exists. Go play it.
You just listed a bunch of remasters and enhanced ports as if that was supposed to help your argument?
I mean seriously, Perfect Dark XBLA? You're really reaching here.
racketpunch
Member
I've made like two posts before that one. Do you even read the thread?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Lol. Will get use in future threads
To be honest I haven't even bothered reading before this page. I just wanted to lurk and as soon as I joined the thread I read this:
LOL
"Fans" probably wanted an Advent Children-ized FF7. And that's what they're getting. And that's fine. It's just not what I wanted.
Also, I've already played the original. Multiple times. And I probably will again, thanks.
Perfect Dark XBLA made a huge difference in the playability of the game without sacrificing the core gameplay. I think it's plenty relevant.
I agree it's unlikely to change anything now.
But it makes more sense to complain about it now than after the game's already been released and it's too late.
Though I guess that's one of the only positives about the multi-part release strategy. They can still react to feedback and hopefully improve later releases.
Heh.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Do your thing Nomura
Buy a third. Im officially passing. Really just wanted a remake. This is more on the level of a reconstruction delivered in what is apparently 3 parts spread across a gen and a half from the looks of it.
I really wanted that legacy combat system. You spend a LARGE percentage if the game with it. Gutting it for some action based combat system (which Im not a fan of in particular) is heartbreaking. I know WHY they are doing it; today's gamers love that spastic nonsense. But that's not what I wanted from a remake at all.
Would be like announcing a Guardian Heroes remake and then limiting combat to 1 plane instead of the normal 3. Combat systems are massive parts of games like this. Deciding to just re-write that is going to understandably lose you some folks.
they've already said they're not going with this direction with cloud.
http://www.siliconera.com/2017/02/2...kes-voicing-main-story-pretty-much-completed/
That's completely reasonable and you have the right to say that you wished that they took another approach.
However when you say:
you make people think that you're going to enter every FFVII thread from now on and keep bothering people about the fact that your dreams were not fulfilled.
It isn't relevant. Like, on a factual level, these two things are not comparable.
This game is a complete remake, built from the ground up. And you compared it to Perfect Dark XBLA, Mario 64 DS and Ocarina of Time 3DS. No, that's not the same thing. Not remotely.
I would prefer turn based battles too. But I also realize it's 2017 and that's a hard sell. I also realize that you can switch between characters and we haven't freaking played it so already judging the game so harshly is just silly.
Professor Beef
Banned
Again with this No True Scotsman bullshit
You'd think this would be the case as simple as it sounds, but people were also still hella up in arms over Tidus and Yuna's face in the FFX remaster.
Point being some changes are probably more significant than others, but it's not nearly a binary division of 'ok' and 'not ok' as far as general consensus is concerned, or at least whatever an approximation is in as diverse a fanbase as the one Final Fantasy has.