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[The Spoony Hou]

So in other words you do not believe non-action RPGs have unexplained difficulty curves or spikes?

And what do you mean because of differing levels? There are differing levels throughout RPGs.

What are you even saying?

Sorry, I meant differing player character levels. And obviously all genres can be unbalanced, but action RPGs will always be unbalanced, unless you tie level progression to story progression, or make it have no bearing on the gameplay.

 

[ZeoVGM]

In an ideal world, this would be the game we would be getting. FF7 with X-2's battle system. That would be amazing and worth buying a PS4 for. But what we're getting? Eh, if it ever comes to PC... on Steam. For 80% off, maybe. Otherwise, no.

You barely know what we're getting yet you know you won't buy the game unless it's 80% off?

I personally want turn-based as well but if this plays anywhere near as well as KH2 FM or Birth by Sleep, it will have a great battle system and, more importantly, be incredibly fun.

Sorry, I meant differing player character levels. And obviously all genres can be unbalanced, but action RPGs will always be unbalanced, unless you tie level progression to story progression, or make it have no bearing on the gameplay.

This makes no sense at all.

 

[eggandI]

You barely know what we're getting yet you know you won't buy the game unless it's 80% off?

I personally want turn-based as well but if this plays anywhere near as well as KH2 FM or Birth by Sleep, it will have a great battle system and, more importantly, be incredibly fun.

That was exactly my hope with FF15.

Lol

 

[topplehat]

I'm okay with this - it's probably why they released "regular" FF7 on the PS4.

 

[shark sandwich]

I'm saying this as someone who preordered FF VII and got it on 9/4/1997 (3 days early!):

The battle system in VII is boring as hell. All you do is pick "attack" from the menu until everything dies. There is zero balance and zero strategy required. And if you do put some real thought into your party configuration and Materia setup, your reward is making an easy game even easier.

You could easily 1-shot most enemies, or even entire enemy parties, if you used the right magic.

I'm overjoyed that they're moving away from the traditional turn-based systems. XII, XIII, and XV had vastly superior combat compared to the "stand in a line and take turns hitting each other" snooze fest of the earlier games.

Take off your nostalgia goggles.

 

[Sephzilla]

I thought this was confirmed a while ago

 

[Luigi87]

Sorry, I meant differing player character levels. And obviously all genres can be unbalanced, but action RPGs will always be unbalanced, unless you tie level progression to story progression, or make it have no bearing on the gameplay.

I was going to argue, but this point at least validates KH2FM's fantastic lv.1 balance, so I can't disagree with you.

 

[Lunafreya Nox Fleuret]

We already knew this. I'm not sure why people are freaking out.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

I thought this was confirmed a while ago

It was confirmed the same year it was announced and its been cried and argued about since

 

[ZeoVGM]

That was exactly my hope with FF15.

Lol

Soon after it became FFXV from Versus, it was known that it was no longer a KH-like action RPG. It probably should have been though.

 

[Sephzilla]

It was confirmed the same year it was announced and its been cried and argued about since

Ah. *Shrug*

Part of me wishes this was still turn based because the only thing FF7 really needed 'remade' was the graphics. But if they go with an FFXV or Kingdom Hearts combat style I'll be okay

 

[freeofgreed]

FFVII was just spamming X too, it's just slower. I never understood people playing up the "skill" factor of that particular battle system. There were only a couple bosses that made me actually really think about what I'm doing. Otherwise it was just somewhat braindead/obvious equipment management. Even if being the absolute most efficient could be deep, it definitely wasn't required depth unless we're talking about some of the secret bosses. I expect this game to be a bit more challenging because of it's action focus, since placement and will be a factor that will raise the level of execution that's needed to get through fights.

Did you read what I said?

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Ah. *Shrug*

Part of me wishes this was still turn based because the only thing FF7 really needed 'remade' was the graphics. But if they go with an FFXV or Kingdom Hearts combat style I'll be okay

I'll take either or if it's good

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Why action RPG, then? Make it an FPS. After all, if simply making a turn-based RPG is a no go, any genre should fly. Never mind FPS, FF7R should be a puzzle platformer with rhythm game sequences instead of combat.

I mean, if an FPS suited their needs, I wouldn't balk at it.

Your deliberate obtuseness re: combat notwithstanding (because of course these games will continue to be focused on combat as the core gameplay), I have no problem with whatever they want to do with these games.

To me, an action-focused system is in fact inherently more fun, immersive, and fits the fiction better than the old ATB system did. I didn't mind the ATB system in 1997 because that's just what it was. But in a vacuum, or on the verge of a remake that changes things, I'm 100% behind a combat system that gives direct control and feels good.

Now if they fuck it up, I won't hesitate to criticize, but at least the initial concept footage looked fucking great to me.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

This makes no sense at all.

If you overlevel, won't an action RPG become easier?

And before you ask, yes, the same happens to an RPG, but RPGs have purely strategical gameplay. It's your fictional characters that are beating people up easily.

In action games, it's the player the one who is supposed to beat enemies with his skill. If you add character levels to it, and you over-level, than it simply becomes button-mashing with no value.

One might say, just don't over-level. But then what's the point of making it an action RPG? Just make it an action game.

 

[Xliskin]

Its a shame that the only turn-based we getting these years is Persona 5

Good.

Also shouldn't be surprising since every game he's directed (and maybe even only been producer on?) has been action based.

except KH RE: COM turn-based in real time

Nothing new to see here. The gameplay video showed as much.


Hope you are prepared for QTEs galore.

KH games has its share of QTEs

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Its a shame that the only turn-based we getting these years is Persona 5





except KH RE: COM turn-based in real time





KH games has its share of QTEs

Atelier firis came out today. Cosmic star comes out April 11th,I'm sure I'm missing some but my mind is blank

 

[McNum]

You barely know what we're getting yet you know you won't buy the game unless it's 80% off?

Yes. I will judge any remake on how well it is doing at being the game it is intending to remake.

For example, XCOM does a decent job at taking the UI-plagued basic gameplay loop of the original game and make it something more modern. Last year's Doom took the core idea of Doom, running, gunning, secrets, and demons on Mars and made a modern game embracing those ideals. Contrast Doom 3 which did not. It did its own game decently, but it didn't do Doom well. Never mention X-Com Enforcer in polite company which failed at everything, up to and including being an X-Com game, let alone a good game.

With what they're saying about FF7 Remake, I'm expecting something between X-Com Enforcer and Doom 3. At worst, it'll fail at everything, and at best, it'll be a fine game, but not a fine Final Fantasy 7.

And I might be a little too aggressive with 80% off. Let's say 66%. Pay a third of the price for a third of a game. Fair's fair. I might pay full price for a full game compilation. If FF7 Remake episodes 2 and 3 ever get made.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Its a shame that the only turn-based we getting these years is Persona 5

trails of cold steel 2 was last years best game, but you wont find anything to replace final fantasy

 

[GregLombardi]

This is a bad decision for the game most likely, but a good one for Square Enix. It is likely the game will sell more because of it. Still, I dont get why they couldnt have done both. They could have frozen the battles and just had an old school menu pop up. Logistically I dont know how difficult it would have been but they could have tried.


And just to be clear - I think its a bad decision for the game because part of FF7s draw was the gameplay and feeling of control the player had in the battles, without overwhelming the player. I think FFXVs system overwhelms the player a bit and doesnt feel as clean. These are my 20+ year ago memories talking though.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Sorry, I meant differing player character levels. And obviously all genres can be unbalanced, but action RPGs will always be unbalanced, unless you tie level progression to story progression, or make it have no bearing on the gameplay.

Excuse me? You're arguing action RPGs are unbalanced due to "differing player character levels" despite the fact that traditional RPGs are known for allowing you to grind for hours on end before advancing.

Games that are ARPGs are not ubiquitous in how they play or advance the player. No two games are the same and so it's pretty ignorant to speak of them, or any genre for that matter, with uniformity. Just because one ARPG is unbalanced or fails to tie level progression to story progression does not inherently mean every single game within that genre does or will do the same.

What are you even arguing? Why do I even have to say this? Take a few minutes to recognize what you're saying before responding.

If you overlevel, won't an action RPG become easier?

And before you ask, yes, the same happens to an RPG, but RPGs have purely strategical gameplay. It's your fictional characters that are beating people up easily.

In action games, it's the player the one who is supposed to beat enemies with his skill. If you add character levels to it, and you over-level, than it simply becomes button-mashing with no value.

One might say, just don't over-level. But then what's the point of making it an action RPG? Just make it an action game.

There is relatively little difference between being over-leveled and waiting your turn to press a button versus being over-leveled and button smashing. In both instances there requires no effort whatsoever. Stop trying to paint one as inherently easier or more difficult than the other. It's game-dependent.

I am really dumbfounded by the fact that you're trying to argue that ARPGs require less skill than turned-based ones. If anything, being actively engaged and unable to wait as long as you please to make a decision a la ARPGs will always be more objectively difficult due to the time constraint.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Uneven difficulty because of differing player character levels.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In most RPGs, action or otherwise, uneven difficulty due to player level variance is a very common issue.

 

[Gxgear]

God I hope it's more KH than XV.

 

[gngf123]

Its a shame that the only turn-based we getting these years is Persona 5

Lots of turn based games are still getting made. One was even released today (Atelier Firis).

You just need to expand your horizons a little if you play mostly on console. They are a more niche genre now.

On the PC and handheld sides of things, I'd even say turn based combat still thrives as much as ever.

 

[Mihos]

Ive played ff7,chrono trigger, chrono cross, pokemon, resonance of fate and a few others. All trash. I know the genre isn't for me.

Same goes for the turn based strategy games.

This says a whole lot about you... nothing at all about the games

 

[stargateheaven]

I'm saying this as someone who preordered FF VII and got it on 9/4/1997 (3 days early!):

The battle system in VII is boring as hell. All you do is pick "attack" from the menu until everything dies. There is zero balance and zero strategy required. And if you do put some real thought into your party configuration and Materia setup, your reward is making an easy game even easier.

You could easily 1-shot most enemies, or even entire enemy parties, if you used the right magic.

I'm overjoyed that they're moving away from the traditional turn-based systems. XII, XIII, and XV had vastly superior combat compared to the "stand in a line and take turns hitting each other" snooze fest of the earlier games.

Take off your nostalgia goggles.

This argument works exactly the same if i reversed everything and replaced it with ff7 remake. (if i base it on other action RPGs)

all you do is press the attack button until everything dies.

the game gets easier if you sort out your party config and materia

by the way, 13 was just a turn based system by the way. no different than "active mode" on older games. its just the characters moved around and you didnt control your party (lame)

 

[Smooth Operator]

The battle system in VII is boring as hell. All you do is pick "attack" from the menu until everything dies. There is zero balance and zero strategy required. And if you do put some real thought into your party configuration and Materia setup, your reward is making an easy game even easier.

Take off your nostalgia goggles.

FF7 is boring as hell, and that's not just because of the combat system.

But i don't understand your point. You know that Square could have made an interesting turn-based system for FF7 remake if they wanted to do it, right ?

This argument works exactly the same if i reversed everything and replaced it with ff7 remake. (if i base it on other action RPGs)

Also, this.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Again, you are talking about difficulty. Strategy is the ability to form a course of action. It is a fact that FF7 had vastly more options for players to strategize with than FF15 does. A lot of that strategy could exist in an action combat system, sure, but it didn't in FF15 which is why people are worried and are bringing up the comparisons ITT. You said you haven't even played FF15 so what is even your point? Just being contrarian?

Why does it FFXV specifically have to have anything to do with my point? You keep trying to force that in there for some reason. People in this thread bringing up FFXV is irrelevant to the discussion point I was bring up. Did you see the comment thread I was replying to? There was no mention of FFXV at all, but RPGs in general.

Yes, what I'm talking about does have to do with difficulty, in direct relationship to strategy in FFVII. I'm saying FFVII has depth in customization, but the vast majority of it isn't required depth. It doesn't urge you to do anything outside of mindless/obvious management choices. There isn't much meaningful point to "strategic customization" if thinking about it deeply is not necessary. Other than customization for customization's sake, or helping your experience feel more personalized. (Which is appreciated).

And yes, I'm talking about strategy. Meaningful strategy, which can relate directly to difficulty.

I think that customization depth could easily be translated into an ARPG system, so I'm not worried that this being ARPG means the customization aspects will be gone.

 

[ZeoVGM]

If you overlevel, won't an action RPG become easier?

And before you ask, yes, the same happens to an RPG, but RPGs have purely strategical gameplay. It's your fictional characters that are beating people up easily.

In action games, it's the player the one who is supposed to beat enemies with his skill. If you add character levels to it, and you over-level, than it simply becomes button-mashing with no value.

One might say, just don't over-level. But then what's the point of making it an action RPG? Just make it an action game.

No, your caveat is completely silly.

Yes, it's the same thing that happens to an RPG. You're making excuses as to why it's different but it's not.

There is no logic in your argument.

 

[Suburban Thug]

If you overlevel, won't an action RPG become easier?

And before you ask, yes, the same happens to an RPG, but RPGs have purely strategical gameplay. It's your fictional characters that are beating people up easily.

In action games, it's the player the one who is supposed to beat enemies with his skill. If you add character levels to it, and you over-level, than it simply becomes button-mashing with no value.

One might say, just don't over-level. But then what's the point of making it an action RPG? Just make it an action game.

You realize games can level scale enemies right? You also realize most gamers hate this because they want to play a power fantasy where you progressively get stronger until you are an unstoppable god, right?

Your arguments for not classifying rpgs with action based combat as "real" rpgs is odd to me. Not everything has to fit in a neat little box defined by tradition.

 

[Mihos]

I think they should make Civ 7 a first person shooter. The kids these days like those, right?

 

[JayEH]

I wonder how many times they'll have to say this before people believe them.

Final Fantasy XV's combat is a huge pile of shit so this gives me zero hope this remake will be good

Action gameplay =/ in style of XV. We've already seen some gameplay, the command deck, Nomura directing, and a KH/Dissidia gameplay designer is working on the game. This all leads to it most likely playing similar to KH.

 

[ethomaz]

So you've never played Wondeful 101, Bayonetta series, Devil May Cry series, Ninja Gaiden Black, Viewtiful Joe, Batnan Arkham series, Shadow of Mordor, etc

I think you are inexperienced with the genre or exaggerating. Probably the latter since this is the internet.

I think you don't know what means action RPG.

 

[Nokagi]

I'm saying this as someone who preordered FF VII and got it on 9/4/1997 (3 days early!):

The battle system in VII is boring as hell. All you do is pick "attack" from the menu until everything dies. There is zero balance and zero strategy required. And if you do put some real thought into your party configuration and Materia setup, your reward is making an easy game even easier.

You could easily 1-shot most enemies, or even entire enemy parties, if you used the right magic.

I'm overjoyed that they're moving away from the traditional turn-based systems. XII, XIII, and XV had vastly superior combat compared to the "stand in a line and take turns hitting each other" snooze fest of the earlier games.

Take off your nostalgia goggles.

This is your (bad) opinion not fact. But you honestly sound like someone who overleveled and used a strategy guide to find all the most powerful items and how best to use them then complained about the game being boring and easy. Cause this boring game were you go around 1-shoting everything is not the game I played at release.

 

[TRUE ORDER]

Wow
I didn't expect this at all lol

 

[theaffection]

Final Fantasy XV's combat is a huge pile of shit so this gives me zero hope this remake will be good

This meme needs to die quick


Best combat system to come around in years

 

[Teletraan1]

This meme needs to die quick


Best combat system to come around in years

Tiduslaugh.gif

 

[Sad Affleck]

Great news. Turn based rpgs are all trash.

I feel sick to my stomach.

 

[Smooth Operator]

This meme needs to die quick


Best combat system to come around in years

 

[The Spoony Hou]

Games that are ARPGs are not ubiquitous in how they play or advance the player. No two games are the same and so it's pretty ignorant to speak of them, or any genre for that matter, with uniformity. Just because one ARPG is unbalanced or fails to tie level progression to story progression does not inherently mean every single game within that genre does or will do the same.

But you will always be able to over-level, unless a game puts level caps or make levels irrelevant. Like, for example, Monster Hunter is an action RPG, but it doesn't have levels and has the character progression tied to equipment (and loot). That's good design, but that's because those games are designed as great action games in the first place.

There is relatively little difference between being over-leveled and waiting your turn to press a button versus being over-leveled and button smashing. In both instances there requires no effort whatsoever. Stop trying to paint one as inherently easier or more difficult than the other. It's game-dependent.

I am really dumbfounded by the fact that you're trying to argue that ARPGs require less skill than turned-based ones. If anything, being actively engaged and unable to wait as long as you please to make a decision a la ARPGs will always be more objectively difficult due to the time constraint.

I didn't say ARPGs require less skill than RPGs, I said they require less skill than action games. Being over-powered in an RPG is a player choice, and it has that direct effect on the gameplay. OF course the same happens to an ARPG, but being over-powered in an action game makes it meaningless. Of course you will disagree, because to you button-mashing in both require no skill, and that's fine. I guess I just think that an action game where you can button-mash your way through is pointless. If you like it, have a ball.

But I still say RPGs and ARPGs are different genres.

 

[Elfstruck]

driveby? fuck no. Ive been wanting an FF7 remake since 2006, for them to taunt me with a remake then present a game calling itself a remake without even having the decency to be in the same genre, fuck em. I'm not buying this shit

Remake not remaster.There's a difference.

 

[The Spoony Hou]

You realize games can level scale enemies right? You also realize most gamers hate this because they want to play a power fantasy where you progressively get stronger until you are an unstoppable god, right?

Your arguments for not classifying rpgs with action based combat as "real" rpgs is odd to me. Not everything has to fit in a neat little box defined by tradition.

If you are going to level scale enemies, then having levels at all is pointless. Make it an action game. (Or purely equipment based.)

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

Remake not remaster.There's a difference.

yea, thats why REmake is a first person shooter. A remake doesnt put the game in a different genre

 

[eggandI]

This meme needs to die quick


Best combat system to come around in years

Come on man

Why does it FFXV specifically have to have anything to do with my point? You keep trying to force that in there for some reason. People in this thread bringing up FFXV is irrelevant to the discussion point I was bring up. Did you see the comment thread I was replying to? There was no mention of FFXV at all, but RPGs in general.

Yes, what I'm talking about does have to do with difficulty, in direct relationship to strategy in FFVII. I'm saying FFVII has depth in customization, but the vast majority of it isn't required depth. It doesn't urge you to do anything outside of mindless/obvious management choices. There isn't much meaningful point to "strategic customization" if thinking about it deeply is not necessary. Other than customization for customization's sake, or helping your experience feel more personalized. (Which is appreciated).

And yes, I'm talking about strategy. Meaningful strategy, which can relate directly to difficulty.

I think that customization depth could easily be translated into an ARPG system, so I'm not worried that this being ARPG means the customization aspects will be gone.

Oh my bad I thought you had brought up FFXV originally. As to the rest of your post, wow that sure is an opinion. Might as well play around with spreadsheets if you want your number crunching to be that pure.

 

[RDreamer]

This meme needs to die quick

Best combat system to come around in years

It's honestly one of the worst RPG systems I've ever had the displeasure of using. It utterly fails on almost every front except being a bit flashy. There's no strategy, no encounter variation, barely any skills to use, it's a fucking mess with more than like 2 enemies, and they just throw everything out because it flat out doesn't work on larger encounters.

 

[Suburban Thug]

I think you don't know what means action RPG.

Good for you but I can tell the difference, thanks.

 

[ethomaz]

Uh, no? FF7 was stupidly easy. You could absolutely get by most battles by simply attacking. Sometimes you'll throw a Heal or Mighty Guard up, but that's hardly what I'd call strategic. FF7's issue was that it gave you a vast amount of tools but no difficulty to really push your strategic limits. Ruby and Emerald Weapons were probably the only exception. This is coming from someone who played 7 on the highest speed on Active Mode, as there was no difficulty option.

There is one issue in difficult FF7... it is easy to be over leveled and that makes the game easy... if you play in a constant pace without do a lot of grind them you will not say that and peharps needs to use the battle system to win battles.

They tried to fix that making every enemy scale with your level in FFVIII but it was not a good ideia too.

Compared with FFVII for example FFVI is hard to get over leveled and because that it is a bit hard than FFVII.

 

[ffvorax]

yea, thats why REmake is a first person shooter. A remake doesnt put the game in a different genre

REmake is actually more a remaster... not the best example to choose from.
They actually changed the graphic and some puzzles, but the game is mostly the same (tank controls included, even with the choice to use the analog controls)

 

[Icyflamez96]

Oh my bad I thought you had brought up FFXV originally. As to the rest of your post, wow that sure is an opinion. Might as well play around with spreadsheets if you want your number crunching to be that pure.

I have no idea what that last statement is supposed to mean but ok lol. A lot of people agree with me that FFVII isn't a game that requires much depth or thought, by the way.

 

[ethomaz]

Good for you but I can tell the difference, thanks.

You clearly don't.