Jobs balance shouldn't be about how hard one is to master compared to another thought.
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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn |OT3| LFT Full Relic and DL Required
- Thread starter Kokonoe
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Never said it should be, but it can be, why not?
People arguing over one being harder to manage than the other is completely silly. Neither job is "hard" when you get down to the core mechanics. One is underpowered compared to the other, big whoop. There's no big secret to doing well as a tank in this game, anyone who tanks an encounter once gains enough to know the battle as well as most people.
It's most likely there to make up for the enmity lost when we start weaving Storms Path combo into our rotation now, since it doesn't add enmity. I'm not sure why overpower is getting a boost as well, but I'll take it. For trivial content, where you won't be using Storm's Path, warrior enmity will be a lot higher than paladin, for sure. I could see them being the new preferred job for speed runs, especially with the new defensive CDs we got.
The rest of the stuff looks good. Inner beast wasn't working right. A flat % reduction should be a lot more useful.
I'm surprised they're going this far. I was expecting a PLD nerf and a few WAR buffs + quality of life changes. That's probably what needed to be done honestly, but I'll take this. Warriors are definitely going to be strong now. I guess I need to stick around until 2.1 comes out now. Hopefully I get some more free time soon.
Yeah right, so there's no difference between playing a ranged dps and a melee dps because it's all down to the core mechanics big whoop. Let's just ignore all the differences because they're all the same anyway.
There is a difference in terms of the cooldowns and mechanics you need to manage.
Gonna be getting online tonight to see if anyone wants to run WP (first timer for me) and/or do a "watch the cutscenes" run of Praetorium (so I can finally finish the story). There's no reason to have farmed tomes and bought equipment beyond AF to finish either one of those is there?
It can, but really shouldn't. Every job should be balanced to be about as efficient for their role, than the other, with the best players in mind.
There shouldn't be an hidden aspect for each job where "whaterver your personnal skill actually your job is easy to play, so any good player on an harder job will get better result than you".
Whatever the reason, the objective should always be not to punish player for choosing a job over another ( even if there is still some limitation to it with the trinity ), even more so when so many aspect of the game were already made with that in mind ( from the lack of elemental resistance, the non-job specific limit break, dragoon jump not making them immune, etc ).
I don't see a need to get so salty over tanking preferences. It's not a game where you're forced into a singular role. That being said if you've tanked either job up to Twintania, then guess what? You're probably a competent tank. Twin isn't some crazy encounter for a tank for either job, you don't exactly do a whole lot there as a tank that you haven't done already.
Arguing over cooldown management is absurd, things becomes reactive in terms of popping cooldowns for both tanks in BC anyway.
WeaponKnight
Member
None at all. Farming is supposed to be done after Praetorium, in fact.
Ahaha! Looks like my decision to sink all my Myth Tomes into AF2 WAR equipment will have paid off! Sweet!
The only thing I dislike about this buff, is that it does away with the high stakes decision-making aspect of playing WAR, and that HP leeching is further being pushed into the borderline decorative territory. Still, WAR is definitely going to be far more useful in Raids now, so I should have people banging down the door for my, uh, services. XD
Also, that Myth cap increase means that I should just about have full AF2 and Relic+1 for my WAR, by the end of the first week 2.1 hits. Heeee!
The only thing I dislike about this buff, is that it does away with the high stakes decision-making aspect of playing WAR, and that HP leeching is further being pushed into the borderline decorative territory. Still, WAR is definitely going to be far more useful in Raids now, so I should have people banging down the door for my, uh, services. XD
Also, that Myth cap increase means that I should just about have full AF2 and Relic+1 for my WAR, by the end of the first week 2.1 hits. Heeee!
Augemitbutter
Member
warrior buffs are so banderas. storm's path finally seems to be useful. overpower enmity has been increased because some people ran out of tp trying to hold aggro, or that's what i assume. you can screw your tp hard if you lose aggro and have to regain it, especially without flash or provoke. i think this has been altered to help warriors in the lower levels out.
For a game people yell for paladins all the time and shudder whenever they see a warrior, you sure are ignoring a lot of the differences. Competent tank or not, at it's current state a paladin is far easier to play compared to a warrior. But I'm sure you know that but you choose to ignore it because big whoop.
A paladin can pop hallowed ground and allow the raid 10 secs of breathing room. A warrior? He can just pop one of his multiple weaker cooldowns and hope it helps a little. A warrior also has access to multiple offensive cooldowns which allows him to grab aggro much faster for burst AOE dps if needed. A warrior does not need to have mana song to hold aggro for t4 aoe phases. But most people don't know that difference between paladins and warriors anyway and chose to have paladins aoe tank because there's difference of big whoop.
But yeah, just because you've done it means it's easy so the content is trivialized and it's a big whoop. You choose to ignore all the people who have yet to clear CoB to T5 and shudder when they see a warrior tank. Mechanics ARE different to utilize a class to its most effective but if you chose to play one exactly as the other, you're not really playing the class.
In most cases outside of HM Titan and Coil they were fine. But that was the whole problem, and why SE took sooooo long to even admit there was a problem, or outline what the problems were. The discrepancy in utility, damage prevention and general skill functionality between the two classes when in HM Titan and Coil is too large on an aggregate level. It's not just about opinion, you can literally count their amount of skills and the effects that they do, let alone run a parser to see their damage taken/mitigated or whatever.
Heck, I'd say most people still don't know what the actual WAR problems on Live are, but a ton of the playerbase wipes in HM Titan DFs even with an 'optimal" setup or doesn't even make it past Turn 1-2 Coil, they just like to emulate what they see bleeding edge progression groups do. That's the same with any mmo though. I personally won't ever shun a person just for their class (within reason regarding raid composition). Heck, I completed my very first HM Titan run with a WAR maintank from GAF that was nice enough to help. He dropped to double digit HP once or twice during table flips but I'll be damned if we didn't keep him alive and get our relics! I would have been just fine with my Coil groups WAR staying WAR, but he rerolled PLD and says that he has a much easier time now, and we now have Turn 4 on farm.
I would have preferred WAR to keep a little bit more of their lifesteal-tank type flavor, but that would likely have PvP related balance concerns with that approaching, and would probably take additional tuning to get right that would take who knows how long. If overtuned that could easily be a repeat of the 1.0 WAR OPness too. As much as I'm for class flavor, I'm of the opinion that it should always take a backseat to functionality.
Regardless, even if the massive amount of WARs quitting or rerolling to PLD is completely overblown, they are getting buffed in 2.1 by a not-insignificant amount and I see no downside to it. If they are overbuffed, they can always be tuned again a few months later, but I just don't foresee any problems at this time. I'm not worried about PLDs at all, they won't be shunned. At worst they will have to "compete" with WARs for a spot over a second PLD, which should have been the case from the getgo.
Well the classes are already like that I think. Monk is more technical than dragoons due to positioning and upkeep requirements. Summoners are more positional and timing based compared to BLM. Scholars are much more about active management than white mages that are mostly passive.
For example for a more casual gamer who doesn't want to bother so much about in depth mechanics, I'd definitely recommend him playing a white mage more than a scholar.
No you're right, I am ignoring a large segment of the population mainly because I don't play with them. I frankly could not give a crap as to how the rest of the community plays considering everything I do revolves around the group I roll with. I'd ask you if that's a poor stance to take however. If the encounters are trivialized by a competent party, then am I wrong? By the community's stance then I probably am, but who cares?
WARs did need a buff however, I won't argue that they aren't underpowered, but please don't come at me with the idea that one is harder simply due to the skillset utilized. The fact that they can't survive nearly as well as PLD isn't something that can be changed by player skill. There's simply a deficit in efficacy of the WAR ability list. I don't see that as a reason to call the job harder, it's just an imbalance that needs to and will be corrected.
I'm not saying every job should should be as easy/hard to play than the other.
I'm saying that it shouldn't be used as a reason to make one stronger than the other ( even thought I know that it can never be perfectly balanced ). Like I'm currently leveling scholar, I wouldn't want it to make me better at healing/keeping everyone alive than a whm ( if played by another player just as good as me ), just because the job has an higher skill cap ( if it does, I don't know ).
Good to hear. Also good to hear that I may have a reason to go back and start leveling my WAR again (though I don't find PLD boring like some seem to).
More of a hassle with the pet U.I. and A.I. than anything else. There's more pre-planning involved due to the innate SCH damage reduction vs WHM burst healing as well, but it's not a huge deal. Even if left alone the faerie is usually pretty on-the-ball about healing people with it's single target spell, but if you learn to manipulate the A.I. better it will end up being much more effective with it's longer CDs.
Yes it's harder due to the skillset utilized. No, playing a warrior better doesn't make you a significantly better tank that you can compare yourself at damage mitigation a paladin, but it makes you less terrible and also makes you stand out in certain areas that paladins cannot meet. Isn't that the point of different classes? Warriors can utilize a dps rotation along with their defensive rotation. Paladins only have one single ability on their offensive cooldown list.
If you already have a group that will take you whatever you play, sure, who cares. If you need to meet expectations, you should expect to show why they should choose you who is playing a much weaker tank (warrior) than someone else who chose the superior tank (paladin). If you can save them a few seconds on faster dps by generating much higher emnity by utilizing skills paladins do not have, why not show them that? I don't know what your argument here is.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Lightning's FATE started up as terribly bad (FATE 1 and 2) but with phase 3 and 4 grow up on me, it was a really entertaning event imho. Plus it got me even more hyped for her "FATE" in LR: FFXIII. She makes me so sad
Switching gears, curious if Mercy Stroke's cooldown is going to have it's base timer reduced or if it's only the trait of Enhanced Mercy Stroke will be buffed.
If the base skill cooldown is reduced, that might make it more appealing to other classes. I get the feeling we're just going to see it stay at 90s for cross class though and have the enchanced trait be the thing that reduces it to 40 :/
Also YoshiP on high level crafting
He's always made a habit of introducing new high level gear with each patch for crafters, seems he'll be doing just that, but for PvP gear this time. Super excited for whatever that template deal is though.
If the base skill cooldown is reduced, that might make it more appealing to other classes. I get the feeling we're just going to see it stay at 90s for cross class though and have the enchanced trait be the thing that reduces it to 40 :/
Also YoshiP on high level crafting
He's always made a habit of introducing new high level gear with each patch for crafters, seems he'll be doing just that, but for PvP gear this time. Super excited for whatever that template deal is though.
So, what's going to be the more useful move for splits/adds/etc. Provoke, or Holmgang?
Voke will have better range, (I think,) and will be a bit more flexible since you can move around and such while it's active.
Holmgang however, will always, "definitively," lock down an enemies location, at least momentarily. For at least ten seconds you won't have to worry about over-eager DPS immediately stealing back aggro, so you can switch over to the aggro rotation and get a more firm aggro on the target.
Plus, while Holmgang's active, you'll momentarily be invincible, since your HP can never drop below 1. I suspect we'll see people using it even when they already have firm aggro, on bosses like Titan HM, as a sort of last ditch panic move.
Voke will have better range, (I think,) and will be a bit more flexible since you can move around and such while it's active.
Holmgang however, will always, "definitively," lock down an enemies location, at least momentarily. For at least ten seconds you won't have to worry about over-eager DPS immediately stealing back aggro, so you can switch over to the aggro rotation and get a more firm aggro on the target.
Plus, while Holmgang's active, you'll momentarily be invincible, since your HP can never drop below 1. I suspect we'll see people using it even when they already have firm aggro, on bosses like Titan HM, as a sort of last ditch panic move.
Provoke has a 25 yalm range. I don't think there's any skill that goes beyond 25yalms, it's the maximum range one can do (I don't think even BRD skills are allowed beyond that). If I recall, they're increasing the range to 6yalms. For reference, that's less than half the length of a tomahawk/shield lob. It's not very far at all really, but at least it's not RIGHTINYOURFACE short anymore.
Brand new. Also yay for more scenario stuff and actually learning about the beast tribes via specific quests. Always like to learn more about the in game universe in FF mmos.
Treasure hunts with 3 other people could be fun if done right. And Crystal Tower, wow at 24 man! How big are parties for Binding Coil, or am I missing something?
lol i love that they just said screw it and gave vengeance and inner beast damage mitigation instead of trying to fix them to be more warrior-like with better self heals
on the other hand the war changes are kinda good. they're getting free rampart every 15 seconds with a duration of 6 secs and a convalescence with 100% uptime at the cost of their pride of being less war-like.
on the other hand the war changes are kinda good. they're getting free rampart every 15 seconds with a duration of 6 secs and a convalescence with 100% uptime at the cost of their pride of being less war-like.
Pardon, I don't really have the whole, "Yalm," measurement as a part of my brainspace yet.
Regardless, 6 Yalm should make Holmgang somewhat useful during certain boss adds and splits, especially if you know about where those enemies will appear, and can move yourself roughly into position ahead of time.
It sounds like Voke is going to be, by far, the more flexible of the skills. But Holmgang may be potentially more useful, if you have skill enough to utilize it properly.
BC is 8. We knew it was going to be 24 for a while.
Coil are 8 members. Also, Crystal Tower will be accesible via Duty Finder, Coil isnt.
Don't worry about it, yalm and malm were some dumb arbitrary names they gave for yard and mile. That's why I mentioned it was just shy of half the length of a tomahawk/shield lob since most people could envision a rough estimate of that.
Holmgang will be great for those short range single adds, way better than provoke in that sense within it's short range and limitations. Thing is WARs have both or at least should have provoke so it'll make the class overall better in the end. Where PLD gets to blind enemies, WAR gets to bind one. It'll make for a nice dynamic with a PLD/WAR team.
creid
Member
Did they keep adding new recipes in 1.x after he took over?
Vanya/Gryphonskin were the final craft items added in following Darklight's addition. At that point they outclassed the shit out of Darklight, though HQing them was balls hard.
shield oath, enhanced rampart, same thing. rampart just sounds a little more...applicable since you pop ramparts more than you pop shield oaths during fights lol.
compared to PLDs? sure. but then again anything is harder to play than PLDs.
why not both? \( ' ; ')/
Ah so thats why people have been trying to form statics. That being said, i'm sticking to making most of the party, and hopefully picking up a few extra via DF for CT. If I keep getting crazy results with 4 man guildhests that spell out what to do before the battle starts...I shudder to think what would happen with CT.
Just trying to discern when it makes sense to use each. Ideally Tanks really SHOULD have both.
Edit: Correction, WAR Tanks should have both. XD
ROBOKITTYZILLA
Member
Many CNJ/WHM spells are 30 yalms. Yeah, 6 yalms is still a pretty small range. It's barely more range than Cover and the radius on Cure III. You will have to be pretty close.
I dont get Yoshida here. They way the token cap is now, new players have actually a harder time to join , because old players are so far away in terms of myth tokens, that new players will never be able to reach (thanks to the cap). This also makes the community more fragmented (theres already signs of this with the Coil set parties).
yeah, I dont expect CT to be much doable in DF, atleast until people can clearly outgear it. I think Coil Turn 1/2 would be more doable, because theres less people involved.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Well hopefully I don't fall too behind everyone else (only has accumulated like 200 myth total on WHM)...almost level 50 on my SMN. Maybe then I can actually alternate more frequently between WHM and SMN
And 2.1 can't come soon enough. It's a good thing I still have lots of content to do, makes the wait less unbearable.
And 2.1 can't come soon enough. It's a good thing I still have lots of content to do, makes the wait less unbearable.
per job? those tryhard players aren't going to spend more myth on their job than they need to as far as bis goes so new players should be able to catch up in myth investment per job.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Kagari does not look amused
Gotta turn in the drops in lower LL.
Are you Galen? If not, you're pretty lucky, there's another guy who needs a run of Praetorium supposedly tonight (assuming you're in Ultros FC).
We had a run of CM last night that went quite whack. Really have to apologize to Aeana and Baramoht who probably didn't sign on for that kind of insanity.
you know those parcel you get from doing the fates?
you know the dude next to winsome (the guy in limsa that gives you the first lightning quest?) gives you weapons for parcel?
i'm pretty sure tiv is into insanity
and baramoht's happy dance is insane too
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