I'll accept your extreme example but let's take it the other way to the extreme. Let's say this is your fourth job being leveled to cap and you, being so awesome, have already bought a full set of ilvl90 myth gear for your new monk (arbitrary choice). In your scenario, that person can't equip his gear that he has worked hard for because of reasons, as it is now, he has that advantage from leveling other classes to be able to jump his monk up to a fairly high ilvl right away.
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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn |OT3| LFT Full Relic and DL Required
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I'll accept your extreme example but let's take it the other way to the extreme. Let's say this is your fourth job being leveled to cap and you, being so awesome, have already bought a full set of ilvl90 myth gear for your new monk (arbitrary choice). In your scenario, that person can't equip his gear that he has worked hard for because of reasons, as it is now, he has that advantage from leveling other classes to be able to jump his monk up to a fairly high ilvl right away.
That's even LESS fun than what it is now, and even now it's not that fun seeing the lack of content. now you add another forced element on player for a grind that's not needed.
Just did Titan EX and died to a bomb blast when the one I was beside hadn't gone off yet. It was the cardinal direction layout and I was standing at the SW one. The South one blew and I was dead straight away.
Was your character model inside of the SW one?
10/10 would summon.
The explosions for the bombs in Titan EM is a lot more widespread/has a greater range than Titan HM. Even the rate at which they explode [after Landslide] is different.Just did Titan EX and died to a bomb blast when the one I was beside hadn't gone off yet. It was the cardinal direction layout and I was standing at the SW one. The South one blew and I was dead straight away.
Shouta
Member
I would use that egi.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Right. And this is why I go back to my secondary point about wanting the numbers to accurately reflect a player's knowledge. Under the current system, say you are a Dragoon who is doing T5 and whatever all the highest ilvl drop content there is in the game. You get ilvl 90 drops for White Mage. You wanna use that drop, but your Conjurer is level 1. So, you herp derp through levels 1-50 (which, through FATE spamming, doesn't teach you how to play endgame at all), and now all of a sudden we have a newly minted level 50 White Mage wearing ilvl90 gear, who doesn't know shit about healing.
Ah alright. That makes sense.
I kind of find the ilvl stuff to be boring. However, they wanted to copy WoW, so they did. The better option, in my opinion, is right in front of their face. Materia. Instead of hunting down gear, you hunt different types of Materia. Materia was better stats or unique effects or whatever. You take the fact you can create materia through melding and mix it wit hunts for specific materia.
How does that factor into equipment? Easy. "Equipment" is nothing but a template with different numbers of slots for materia. So, the crafters can create a large and diverse amount of looks, sets and materia slots while the players go and explore Coil and what not for the Materia. Instead of just more STR, it would be "Enhances Greased Lightning Effect by 10%." "Increases Fester Damage by 5%" etc etc.
Gatherers grab the materials needs for Crafters to make the clothing while battle classes can hunt for the more unique types of Materia so players can customize the way their Job looks, acts and performs.
How does that factor into equipment? Easy. "Equipment" is nothing but a template with different numbers of slots for materia. So, the crafters can create a large and diverse amount of looks, sets and materia slots while the players go and explore Coil and what not for the Materia. Instead of just more STR, it would be "Enhances Greased Lightning Effect by 10%." "Increases Fester Damage by 5%" etc etc.
Gatherers grab the materials needs for Crafters to make the clothing while battle classes can hunt for the more unique types of Materia so players can customize the way their Job looks, acts and performs.
Ploid 3.0
Member
And not be as familiar with it as a seasoned monk that leveled it up to earn it on monk. Which is what it seems he's talking about. Maybe give people a progress quest experience level depending on how much crap they did on the job, or stars and emblems like diablo 3's paragon decoration. Rentahampster know about that,
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I think you missed the part where I said twice how this is an "extreme" example, primarily constructed to demonstrate the meaningless of these numbers.
it's not meaningless, it's an easier way for people to identify level of gear, which is a big point in mmo.
And not be as familiar with it as a seasoned monk that leveled it up to earn it on monk. Which is what it seems he's talking about. Maybe give people a progress quest experience level depending on how much crap they did on the job, or stars and emblems like diablo 3's paragon decoration. Rentahampster know about that,
As it stands now though, the alternative you've presented is just filling more experience pools, that doesn't tell me anything other than how long they have been playing, at least with ilvl, I can guarentee they have good stats, under your suggestion, I'm just being told that they CAN equip ilvl 90 stuff, they may or may not even have the gear.
A star or emblem system would be cool but they could just keep this all the same but allow achievements to be examined by other players, what more gauge do I need of someone than whether they've killed this certain thing or not.
Nymian. Which were more interesting in the SCH questline than everything related to the Allagan combined.
Yeah, it can take some getting used to.
Once you make it past the heart-phase, know that the bombs will explode roughly 1-1.5 seconds after Landslide. Time your moves accordingly, and good luck! >
Shouta
Member
It's not meaningless because character level is a separate progression bar. It exists because it allows the game to be expanded at point. The base at which you can design content around.
Think about it this way. What if Character level didn't exist? How would you design a system to imitate its progression using only item levels without it becoming a mess? Equipping your items increases your level right? So what stops you from wearing i90 gear as soon as you start the game? etc
I find the idea of yours interesting to think about/talk about/discuss, but when it comes down to it it would end up being the same as now except more convoluted.
Yes, gear ilvl increases serve as a sense of progression related to a number that is not necessarily true, but that does not mean that level increases via exp grinding would show anything else. Heck, I actually think that some of the gear in this game does display a measure of skill (EX Primals/T5 drops) better than quite a few MMOs, if they'd be a little more consistent about (example: relic quest 90 being the same as EX 90 weapons, when the effort required for both might be up for debate; or AK suddenly dropping weaker gear than before with no decrease in difficulty).
So from what I can tell, this would simply end up being change for the sake of change at best. There's nothing inherent in the current system to suggest it's "shitty", or that your proposed system would be "better" at addressing the initial proposed goal of using arbitrary numbers to quantify player skill, especially with the current formula establishes coherent increases in power and skill selection following expansions/cap increases, mob selection for hunting/exp purposes, and so on. Ignoring the benefits of those well-known and thus easy to understand systems for a goal whose overall benefits are questionable at best is not something I'd call a good idea. And if they are not ignored and simply shifted around, than that goes back to my original question of: why bother?
If I'm misunderstanding something, please feel free to explain cause I'll read it!
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
But it is meaningless as the game is currently designed. No one cares if you're level 50. People care what item level you are.
I don't think having a higher cap necessarily prohibits expansion. In my example (where the character level cap is 90), everyone's relative power levels are exactly the same as they are in the current game.
That's why I preferred to abolish the emphasis of ilvl, and keep the character level system.
Yeah, it can take some getting used to.
Once you make it past the heart-phase, know that the bombs will explode roughly 1-1.5 seconds after Landslide. Time your moves accordingly, and good luck! >
Oh, I've beaten it before without getting killed by the bombs. I just thought the way I died was strange.
The character level system would end up showing even less of the person's worth in a fight than the current ilvl system.
Ah, glad to hear it!
It really is a fun fight. It's kind of weird how HM, in comparison with EM, seems so simple, now. :/
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I don't get this is basically putting a number representing how much better is a piece of gear compared to other (or the contrary). How is different between rare/common/exceptional gear in other games (or basically any RPG ever)?
Ploid 3.0
Member
Does WOW allow multiple characters to share stash? Like can you get a untradable iLVL 300 shield on Priest for a PLD you will level up someday? If not, FFXIV's one cahracter for all classes kinda breaks the iLVL thing doesn't it? Diablo 3 has the ilvl but it only go up so far even with -level requirement affix.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Right. And why shouldn't this game also be about filling exp buckets? It IS an RPG, after all. As long as filling those buckets is a fun and rewarding experience to do, people will want to do it, and do it with enjoyment.
Besides, as my extreme example laid out, it wouldn't be any different than what players are doing now. Players are now running dungeons and primals over and over again anyway. In my extreme example, the exp gotten from those dungeon and primal runs is enough to allow them to level up in time to wear the gear that drops for them as soon as they get it. Same as how it is now.
That's no different than what I'm suggesting. If a player is wearing good gear, they're wearing good gear.
Which is the same exact thing that being level 50 tells you in the game now. It's just a lot more ambiguous.
As it stands now, the easiest way to gauge achievements is visual. If they are wearing a drop they got from killing a hard boss, then that's easy to see. That's part of the appeal of high level gear, after all. I'm not suggesting we do away with that.
Torquill
Member
2.1 quests basically says its a solar power olant
Filling experience buckets is fine but it doesn't tell me the player's skill level which is the only issue we are having.
Being level 50 does only tell me that they can wear up to ilvl 90 gear and that is super ambiguous which is why we have the ilvl showing in the first place, now it is no longer ambiguous what level gear they are wearing.
You've talked in a circle for so long that it isn't making much sense anymore.
Ploid 3.0
Member
What if people could only wear items that drop from things like ifrit ex and turn 25 if they beat it on that class? A quest to uncurse the items, to reach that quest you have to slay the beast like relic weapons. It would really suck having to do all those fights again for every new job. There's no ilvl75 genkai (limit br.. level break).
I could get behind an idea like this. To use the item, you have to have beaten the thing it drops from with your current job. They would have to be proactive about it though and not retroactive, meaning they shouldn't go back and mess with people who are currently wearing all that gear.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I'm not sure what you're asking here. What I'm saying is that we have character level and ilvl match up. I'm not abolishing ilvl completely. I'm abolishing the emphasis on it, and the discrepancy between that, and character level as it is in the game currently.
Neither does character level as it is in the game now. Neither does ilvl (sometimes), as it is in the game now.
(under my system)
At least you know that a character who has gotten to level 60 had to have completed level 60 endgame difficulty dungeon/primal content as that character.
At least you know that a character who has gotten to level 70 had to have completed level 70 endgame difficulty dungeon/primal content as that character.
At least you know that a character who has gotten to level 80 had to have completed level 80 endgame difficulty dungeon/primal content as that character.
At least you know that a character who has gotten to level 90 had to have completed level 90 endgame difficulty dungeon/primal content as that character.
The current system does not convey to you that specificity, and the herp derp white mage player in my previous example, would have at least had to have earned the right to wear his gear.
I might have been unclear on this point, but you can still see the ilvl of the gear they're wearing. That's part of what I meant when I said that things are still mostly the same as it is now, even in my extreme example. It just now matches up with the player's character level.
Torquill
Member
Maybe for things you can farm. I don't think you should do this for content that is time locked already, like the EX i90 weapons.
They already did something like this with the Relic since for the quest you can only complete it on said job. It's why not being able to clear Titan HM is/was such a huge deal for a lot of people.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to implement further quests like it to establish a bigger emphasis on class going forward. 75 Maat fights did take a few expansions to come in after all.
Probably because they actually had a questline.
These aren't all necesarilly true though. People level up on lower level content all the time and maybe someone's wall is titan HM when garuda HM is the same level requirement. They could just level up using garuda and skip titan entirely. There are too many holes in the system that make it not worth upheaving the entire system.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
But that's the fact. Gear never matches character lvl, more rare gear means than compared to your character level there's more discrepancy. Now is just putting it a number to represent that discrepancy. It was always there. Is basically a norm on RPGs.
Is not different to 1.0 in which you had AF gear, militia gear, crafted gear and Darklight gear. Being the last one almost the equivalent of ilvl80-90 on 2.0. They just didn't put a number representing the difference.
Actually the real difference is that, there's more options between AF-best gear on between or, rather, more small steps in that progression. And that's a good thing.
Why? You have to beat all three that week anyway, force the player to do it on the job they want the weapon for. Plus the example would really be applied to the jewelery in this case anyway.
It's a freaking game, there's no "eanred" "the right", you get the gear in your inventory, you are at the level to wear it? You wear it. Plenty of people with full myth on one job and can't beat ex primal (or even titan hm with out being helped) and never stepped into coil. They spent time and all the myth on that, let them. IT IS JUST A GAME
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Oh whoops, I totally forgot to mention how there's a genkai system like in FF11. In order to level from 60 to 70, You'd have to have defeated Ifrit (or any other similarly difficult content). In order to level from 70 to 80 you'd have to have defeated Garuda (or any other similarly difficult content). In order to level from 80 to 90, you'd have to have defeated Titan (or any other similarly difficult content).
My proposal doesn't change any of the "good things" you describe in your post. Plus it has the benefits of actually having gear level match character level.
Rentahamster is proposing a system that allows you to tell how skilled a player is for a particular role. With the way most MMORPG groups work, there will never be a good numerical indicator that shows how skilled a player is for that role. Less-skilled people can often beat content through the extra output of the more-skilled people they group with. There are people who get carried through content by paying for clears. Some of the more skilled people are stuck failing at the same group content over and over because they keep playing with less-skilled people.
The only job-relevant task in the genkai system in FF11 was the Maat fight and most of the Maat fights are a poor indicator of how the person could perform at that job in a group setting. It's not like there was any consideration for enmity in the Maat fight.
Sorry: double post ;x
Torquill
Member
Cause that shit is hard enough that I should be able to pick shit for classes I haven't leveled yet
diablos991
Can’t stump the diablos
Plus the fact that somebody could log on sick, drunk, on meds, etc...
If you want to judge skill level, just observe it personally and make a linkshell devoted to it. No reason to fiddle with the entire game's mechanics to solve a simple problem like this. That would just cause a whole new lot of problems to crop up.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Of course. I'm all about that. I think you're taking the word "earned" a little too seriously here.
Yes, I know it's just a game.
You wouldn't have had to have beaten ex primals in order to hit 90. I think you're still taking my (extreme for the sake of theorycrafting) example and taking it too literally, as if that's exactly how it's going to be in the game. There should, of course, be avenues for lesser skilled players to take, and nothing unfair that blocks their enjoyment of the game.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
But this is in the context of FF14 content, not the Maat fight.
Since we're getting into discussions about success, skill, and metrics for such things, let me ask: what is the point of gear?
Suppose:
The content designers need to establish a baseline for which to design content difficulty around. They arbitrarily chose level 50. It's easier to balance around one level rather than several.
Content is created. 10% of the player population completes the content with the baseline stats. 90% fail, so presumably, they need additional tools to make it easier and allow for larger margins of player error (or they don't tweak it at all and just let players bash their heads against it until they win). Traditionally, this comes with "better gear", or stat supplements above what the baseline difficulty is designed around.
The following week, an additional 10% of the player base complete the content with their new stat boosts. I would assume players would argue that these players weren't as "skilled" or "as good as" the previous week's, because they needed a crutch. Gear is a crutch.
So why is it that people conflate gear/item level with success at all? What if clearing content provided no gear at all? What if all you got was a pat on the back, an achievement that pops up and says, YOU DEFEATED, and that was that? What if everyone played from the same toolset and baseline?
You may argue, hey, not everyone is that good, but everyone wants to see and complete content. Everyone wants to have fun doing this. What if the difficulty (going reductive with this and boiling it down to pure numbers for the sake of argument) goes down by 10% each week? What if it just depreciates, or players get a stronger and stronger buff the longer it takes to clear the dungeon, until they can?
What is the point of gear?
(I would also argue that gear itself ruins PVP. Imagine playing any PVP game, like Starcraft, where the toolsets are disparate, and the player you're going up against has units that just do 10% more everything. Where's the fun in that?)
Suppose:
The content designers need to establish a baseline for which to design content difficulty around. They arbitrarily chose level 50. It's easier to balance around one level rather than several.
Content is created. 10% of the player population completes the content with the baseline stats. 90% fail, so presumably, they need additional tools to make it easier and allow for larger margins of player error (or they don't tweak it at all and just let players bash their heads against it until they win). Traditionally, this comes with "better gear", or stat supplements above what the baseline difficulty is designed around.
The following week, an additional 10% of the player base complete the content with their new stat boosts. I would assume players would argue that these players weren't as "skilled" or "as good as" the previous week's, because they needed a crutch. Gear is a crutch.
So why is it that people conflate gear/item level with success at all? What if clearing content provided no gear at all? What if all you got was a pat on the back, an achievement that pops up and says, YOU DEFEATED, and that was that? What if everyone played from the same toolset and baseline?
You may argue, hey, not everyone is that good, but everyone wants to see and complete content. Everyone wants to have fun doing this. What if the difficulty (going reductive with this and boiling it down to pure numbers for the sake of argument) goes down by 10% each week? What if it just depreciates, or players get a stronger and stronger buff the longer it takes to clear the dungeon, until they can?
What is the point of gear?
(I would also argue that gear itself ruins PVP. Imagine playing any PVP game, like Starcraft, where the toolsets are disparate, and the player you're going up against has units that just do 10% more everything. Where's the fun in that?)
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