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[Lucis]

Of course. I'm all about that. I think you're taking the word "earned" a little too seriously here.


Yes, I know it's just a game.

You wouldn't have had to have beaten ex primals in order to hit 90. I think you're still taking my (extreme for the sake of theorycrafting) example and taking it too literally, as if that's exactly how it's going to be in the game. There should, of course, be avenues for lesser skilled players to take, and nothing unfair that blocks their enjoyment of the game.

Well, I am going say one last thing about your "ideals"
what you proposed, (or hinted at proposing) will really break the balance of the game, make end game hard to tune, and basically is not survivable as a model at all.

 

[Rentahamster]

Well, I am going say one last thing about your "ideals"
what you proposed, (or hinted at proposing) will really break the balance of the game, make end game hard to tune, and basically is not survivable as a model at all.

How does it break anything, when I specifically said that all that is fundamentally changing is that number next to your character says 90 instead of 50? Stats and everything are still all the same.

 

[BLCKATK]

2.1 quests basically says its a solar power olant

I remember reading somewhere that when the dev team was discussing the bosses, they stated that Xande (the boss from FFIII) would be rebooted as the Allagan Emperor Xandes, who was entombed in the crystal tower.

 

[Jayhawk]

But this is in the context of FF14 content, not the Maat fight.

Regardless of context, no magic number is going to tell you how good a player is at performing their role in an MMORPG. You're complicating a system to try to accomplish something that it won't.

 

[Lucis]

How does it break anything, when I specifically said that all that is fundamentally changing is that number next to your character says 90 instead of 50? Stats and everything are still all the same.

actually your idea is worse than that, it will serve no purpose other than put more cock blocking to end game

"So say you level up from 1-50 the same way as you do now. Then, instead of being level capped, you keep getting exp like you always do. You essentially keep leveling up from 50 to 90, using the same experience formula that is used when you go from 49-50. And your stats don't change at all. All this does is enable you to wear higher level gear. Keep in mind that when you're grinding for your ilvl 60 gear, you'll probably be level 60 by the time you get your first drop anyway. And when you're grinding dungeons and primals for your ilvl70 gear, you'll probably ding level 70 by the time you get your first drop anyway. Etc. Etc."

Right now to get to end game you don't need much grinding, just some skills and don't be bad. putting level requirement on gears and levels that does not alter status is more meaningless than simply having something called "item level"

 

[Rentahamster]

Regardless of context, no magic number is going to tell you how good a player is at performing their role in an MMORPG.

I already acknowledged that fact earlier, and am proposing this as a way for the info be a little more accurate, at least.

You're complicating a system to try to accomplish something that it won't.

The game isn't any different as it is now, and from what I'm proposing. The most important thing is that the character level and ilvl are in sync, and that character caps can be increased at anytime, along with new items, and it won't fuck up the current balance, like expansion packs are wont to do in the current MMORPG paradigm. It just merely builds upon what's already been established.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I don't believe that categorizing players based on their level is a good thing for the community. Even less blocking their progress based on clearing content when it dosn't only depends in your skill alone.

If that means more solo content, I'm also against. The battle system really shines on group content.

 

[Rentahamster]

actually your idea is worse than that, it will serve no purpose other than put more cock blocking to end game

"So say you level up from 1-50 the same way as you do now. Then, instead of being level capped, you keep getting exp like you always do. You essentially keep leveling up from 50 to 90, using the same experience formula that is used when you go from 49-50. And your stats don't change at all. All this does is enable you to wear higher level gear. Keep in mind that when you're grinding for your ilvl 60 gear, you'll probably be level 60 by the time you get your first drop anyway. And when you're grinding dungeons and primals for your ilvl70 gear, you'll probably ding level 70 by the time you get your first drop anyway. Etc. Etc."

Right now to get to end game you don't need much grinding, just some skills and don't be bad. putting level requirement on gears and levels that does not alter status is more meaningless than simply having something called "item level"

You're still taking my extreme, thought experiment example, as if it's how it's actually going to work in the game, if implemented.

 

[Rentahamster]

I don't believe that categorizing players based on their level is a good thing for the community.

Players are already categorized in the current game based on their level. Their item level.

Even less blocking their progress based on clearing content when it dosn't only depends in your skill alone.

A player who currently has ilvl 90 in the current system wouldn't have been blocked any more or less than a player in my hypothetical example. The block in place now, (clearing the dungeon/raid/primal) to get the item is exactly the same in my system too.

If that means more solo content, I'm also against. The battle system really shines on group content.

I don't see how my proposal emphasizes more solo content. If anything, it encourages group play.

 

[Kintaro]

Probably because they actually had a questline.

As if damn near everything else in this game isn't about something Allah.

 

[WolvenOne]

I think perhaps it's maybe time to, agree to disagree, and move on. It looks like this debate had taken up a few pages already, and I doubt anything constrictive will come from it, seeing as much of the discussion is rooted in hypothetical that we will likely never see.

Not that I have the authority to demand such things, that's just my two cents.

 

[Ken]

As if damn near everything else in this game isn't about something Allah.

Don't they only come into play once you start the Binding Coil quest chain at 50? And even then they're barely explored.

Although I really can't remember much from the story so I'm probably forgetting.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Players are already categorized in the current game based on their level. Their item level.


A player who currently has ilvl 90 in the current system wouldn't have been blocked any more or less than a player in my hypothetical example. The block in place now, (clearing the dungeon/raid/primal) to get the item is exactly the same in my system too.

But iLvl can be easily bypassed with Myth, which can be get on ilvl 50 gear/content (except for relic, which needs iLvl 60).

You're blocking players and making them go for several step roads in your system. Is much less flexible than we have now. iLv is not only a way to categorize, is also a way to compensate for lack of skill, since you don't need to go throught increasing difficult content to get it. Your system can probably create like a social class system in which players could get stuck on lower levels and be potentially ignored and casted aside because their level. And not always because their fault.

 

[Torquill]

Here is my proposal.

Adventuring licenses.

For the really high end stuff you should have to complete a solo instance that tests skill requirements and you can be graded.

So Titan could require a dodging license with a high grade or something.

 

[Rentahamster]

Does WOW allow multiple characters to share stash? Like can you get a untradable iLVL 300 shield on Priest for a PLD you will level up someday? If not, FFXIV's one cahracter for all classes kinda breaks the iLVL thing doesn't it? Diablo 3 has the ilvl but it only go up so far even with -level requirement affix.

I might be wrong, I thought there wasn't any shared stash in WoW. You can mail items between mules, but not untradable items.

WoW already has that mechanic in place where you have to have beaten high level content as that class, in order to use that class' high level items. I'm not sure why it's so controversial in the context of FF14. This time it's just on one character, and not on alts.

 

[Ken]

So Titan could require a dodging license with a high grade or something.

I almost spit out my drink.

 

[Teknoman]

I really want a large series of quests delving into the ancients. Stuff is always really interesting, and I was a sucker for the zilart and kuluu stuff in xi. Or lunarians in IV

 

[studyguy]

I almost spit out my drink.

LFG: SRANK DRIFTERS ONLY MUST DRIVE AT AN i90 LEVEL AND HAVE ALL JHOTO BADGES

 

[elyetis]

Since we're getting into discussions about success, skill, and metrics for such things, let me ask: what is the point of gear?

Suppose:
The content designers need to establish a baseline for which to design content difficulty around. They arbitrarily chose level 50. It's easier to balance around one level rather than several.

Content is created. 10% of the player population completes the content with the baseline stats. 90% fail, so presumably, they need additional tools to make it easier and allow for larger margins of player error (or they don't tweak it at all and just let players bash their heads against it until they win). Traditionally, this comes with "better gear", or stat supplements above what the baseline difficulty is designed around.

The following week, an additional 10% of the player base complete the content with their new stat boosts. I would assume players would argue that these players weren't as "skilled" or "as good as" the previous week's, because they needed a crutch. Gear is a crutch.

So why is it that people conflate gear/item level with success at all? What if clearing content provided no gear at all? What if all you got was a pat on the back, an achievement that pops up and says, YOU DEFEATED, and that was that? What if everyone played from the same toolset and baseline?

You may argue, hey, not everyone is that good, but everyone wants to see and complete content. Everyone wants to have fun doing this. What if the difficulty (going reductive with this and boiling it down to pure numbers for the sake of argument) goes down by 10% each week? What if it just depreciates, or players get a stronger and stronger buff the longer it takes to clear the dungeon, until they can?

What is the point of gear?

(I would also argue that gear itself ruins PVP. Imagine playing any PVP game, like Starcraft, where the toolsets are disparate, and the player you're going up against has units that just do 10% more everything. Where's the fun in that?)

I agree on the pvp part ( which is why I only pvp at lvl 30 & 40 ).

When it comes to what's the point of gear in pve thought ? progression, feeling of getting stronger and more importantly it's the 'carrot on a stick' which allow content not to be beaten once then completly forgoten by most player. They already have an hard time pleasing people with enough content even thought there is timesink from item drop/RNG, there just no way they could keep up without it.

 

[BadRNG]

They do the exact same thing now, taking a character through the grind to get ilvl 90 gear.

Actually this is not true at all, as you can essentially gear up your other classes while playing your main. My PLD was i70 something just from reusing gear I had on my WAR when I first hit 50. My SCH is i82 or something despite only 50 recently, and barely playing on it at all, because I have extra philosophy tomes and greed roll'd loot no one needed while playing as other classes.

Even talking in terms of a single class MMO, gearing up is usually far faster than leveling is.

 

[Rentahamster]

But iLvl can be easily bypassed with Myth, which can be get on ilvl 50 gear/content (except for relic, which needs iLvl 60).

You're blocking players and making them go for several step roads in your system. Is much less flexible than we have now. iLv is not only a way to categorize, is also a way to compensate for lack of skill, since you don't need to go throught increasing difficult content to get it.

Tome items can still be used as a crutch for lesser skilled players in my proposal. Their ilvl can still be 90, but just make their required level 70 or something. This way, unskilled players can still trade their time to make up for their lack of skill. Grinding myth on ilvl50 content will take longer, but eventually they can trade in their tomes for higher end gear, as you say, and as people do now.

Higher skilled players can just progress their way too, by beating difficult content for good loot.

For example, unskilled players who can't beat Titan can grind myth until they gear up enough to be able to beat Titan.

Meanwhile, higher skilled players will have already beaten Titan with their darklight gear, and moved on to coil, where they can start getting Allagan drops, bypassing the need for a crutch (myth gear).

Your system can probably create like a social class system in which players could get stuck on lower levels and be potentially ignored and casted aside because their level. And not always because their fault.

People already get stuck on lower ilvls and get ignored and cast aside.

 

[Ken]

I think perhaps it's maybe time to, agree to disagree, and move on. It looks like this debate had taken up a few pages already, and I doubt anything constrictive will come from it, seeing as much of the discussion is rooted in hypothetical that we will likely never see.

Not that I have the authority to demand such things, that's just my two cents.

If it's a valid argument or discussion I don't see why anyone has to move on. If anything it's made this thread far more active than before.

 

[Rentahamster]

Actually this is not true at all, as you can essentially gear up your other classes while playing your main. My PLD was i70 something just from reusing gear I had on my WAR when I first hit 50. My SCH is i82 or something despite only 50 recently, and barely playing on it at all, because I have extra philosophy tomes and greed roll'd loot no one needed while playing as other classes.

Even talking in terms of a single class MMO, gearing up is usually far faster than leveling is.

That's why I was talking about your main class. Of course, as the game is set up, you're going to get drops for other classes.

 

[GraveRobberX]

IWoW already has that mechanic in place where you have to have beaten high level content as that class, in order to use that class' high level items. I'm not sure why it's so controversial in the context of FF14. This time it's just on one character, and not on alts.

The system in place is just a tossed salad scenario

Each separate part (casual, hardcore, the weekenders, the on/off players) thrown in, just mixed and served, with a little drizzle of lockout to enhance the flavor
You get nice chunks full, and one ingredient piece compliments the other

What you want is a melted pot scenario

Grab everything, throw that bitch in, fuck flavoring just add more salt, slow cook for 90+ levels
It might look a great stew with a good aroma, but a few bites in adding too much shit and not spacing out the ingredients fucked it up


*If you couldn't tell, I'm hungry >.>;*

 

[PowerTaxi]

Ifrit EM. Ugh... ugh.

Healer bitching that the DPS are sending the eruptions his way when HE'S STANDING ON TOP OF US AND DOESN'T MOVE. He then dies to the first one that spawns and blames us.

Eejit.

I know its meant to be an easy fight but man, people suck.

 

[BadRNG]

Tome items can still be used as a crutch for lesser skilled players in my proposal. Their ilvl can still be 90, but just make their required level 70 or something. This way, unskilled players can still trade their time to make up for their lack of skill. Grinding myth on ilvl50 content will take longer, but eventually they can trade in their tomes for higher end gear, as you say, and as people do now.

Higher skilled players can just progress their way too, by beating difficult content for good loot.

For example, unskilled players who can't beat Titan can grind myth until they gear up enough to be able to beat Titan.

I love how you equate RNG with skill, unless you are proposing beating a boss gives guaranteed loot for your class, which is something developers purposefully avoid.

Which brings things back to the real point of gear progression in MMOs, time sinks to stall progression so developers have time to add new content.

You can say "well they can just use character levels for that!" but that is just as meaningless a switch. I don't understand the point of your argument. Yes, you can turn ilevel into character level, but they chose not to do that here. Gear, and the stats they give, is an extremely easy concept to develop around and makes balancing endgame content much easier. They could also turn ilevel into Pokemon badges or any number of things, but they didn't simply because that is how they chose to design progression. You've been told many times now why they chose to design things the way they did, I don't really understand what you are arguing for at this point.

As for the whole argument about how this could show a player's skill, it won't tell us anymore than ilevel already does. Grinding out an EXP level takes no more skill than grinding for gear. Bad players will always find a way to reach endgame content, and going out of your way to prevent this is a massive waste of time.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

More to the point, preventing all but a small number of players from reaching endgame content is basically committing commercial suicide with your game. The reason WoW is so successful is that it is accessible to all kinds of players from the super causal 2 hours a week players to the ultra no-lifers and everyone has something to do at endgame.

 

[Rentahamster]

I love how you equate RNG with skill, unless you are proposing beating a boss gives guaranteed loot for your class, which is something developers purposefully avoid.

I'm not equating RNG with skill. I'm not proposing guaranteed loot, either. It takes skill to beat hard bosses and dungeons. What's so RNG about that beside from the loot roll rewards?

Which brings things back to the real point of gear progression in MMOs, time sinks to stall progression so developers have time to add new content.

Yes, I know. My proposal doesn't change that concept at all.

You can say "well they can just use character levels for that!" but that is just as meaningless a switch. I don't understand the point of your argument. Yes, you can turn ilevel into character level, but they chose not to do that here. Gear, and the stats they give, is an extremely easy concept to develop around and makes balancing endgame content much easier. They could also turn ilevel into Pokemon badges or any number of things, but they didn't simply because that is how they chose to design progression.

Because I want to eliminate unnecessary, meaningless, numbers. Character level 50 is a meaningless number. I also want to avoid the scenario where the entire balance of the game is changed by a simple level cap increase. I want a system where you don't necessarily have to retard character level and inflate ilvl when you add new content.

You've been told many times now why they chose to design things the way they did, I don't really understand what you are arguing for at this point.

Yes I know I've been told many times what I've already known since I first brought this topic up. I'm arguing for a more elegant system.

As for the whole argument about how this could show a player's skill, it won't tell us anymore than ilevel already does. Grinding out an EXP level takes no more skill than grinding for gear. Bad players will always find a way to reach endgame content, and going out of your way to prevent this is a massive waste of time.

That's why it's a secondary objective with the aim to mitigate, not stop it completely,

 

[Rentahamster]

More to the point, preventing all but a small number of players from reaching endgame content is basically committing commercial suicide with your game. The reason WoW is so successful is that it is accessible to all kinds of players from the super causal 2 hours a week players to the ultra no-lifers and everyone has something to do at endgame.

What I'm proposing has the same level of accessibility as the game as it currently is. I'm not looking to make it harder. Well... I would want to make it harder, but only in ways specifically directed to players who want a greater challenge. Easy content for casuals, hard content for hardcores, time investments for casuals who need to acquire crutches to complete hardcore content, etc.

 

[theMrCravens]

I'm trying to imagine your endgame with level ~90 cap and no ilvl.

At 50, there are no more quests hubs.
We do have a bunch of dungeons and primals, but do you really see yourself running them like ~10 times each to gain a single level ? Considering it doesn't take that long to get a new ilvl item also.

Seems impossible to balance lvl 90 time req = ilvl 90 time req

 

[MechaX]

Ancients: So there is allag, amdapor and who else?

I totally bet the Amdapor folks got killed by some Super Anataboga that they had no business summoning.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I totally bet the Amdapor folks got killed by some Super Anataboga that they had no business summoning.

Anatabogodzilla

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Just did a DR AK run where the group couldn't stop dying at the first boss and I didn't feel like dragging a tank, healer and dps through the rest of the place after they kept failing, ugh.

 

[Kenai]

Tome items can still be used as a crutch for lesser skilled players in my proposal. Their ilvl can still be 90, but just make their required level 70 or something. This way, unskilled players can still trade their time to make up for their lack of skill. Grinding myth on ilvl50 content will take longer, but eventually they can trade in their tomes for higher end gear, as you say, and as people do now.

Meanwhile, higher skilled players will have already beaten Titan with their darklight gear, and moved on to coil, where they can start getting Allagan drops, bypassing the need for a crutch (myth gear).

Myth gear isn't just a crutch against bosses, but loot rng as well. I've cleared T1-4 since mid October and you'd be hard pressed to tell by what I'm wearing. Plus, it's a reward to make the content easier to clear over time (or in my case, the loot is just plain better because of different class stat values).

People already get stuck on lower ilvls and get ignored and cast aside.

Who and by who? There is very clear progression in this game and there are options for basically everyone at this point, even if they only have a few hours to try. Just because a few people in PF/shout put up an arbitrary barriers for the "privilege" of grouping with them doesn't mean all people are like that. Sure, DF isn't always ideal, but if it was there's be no point in having options at all.

In both the case of loot dynamics and being cast aside, what you are describing isn't how things actually work on a regular basis or even the standard, but a part of things. Removing/shifting stuff around isn't going to change the fundamental reasons for why people do what they do to define character skill/progression at a glance.

 

[Jayhawk]

Merging character level and item level into one number hurts the experience for the casual user - the majority of subscribers. Hitting character level 50 on one class/job is a big accomplishment for a casual player. Your design concept would reduce that impact because hitting character level 50 would be no different than hitting character level 41, since they're still below cap.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Seems we'll be getting Shantotto and DQ stuff in mid Feb.

 

[Lucis]

What I'm proposing has the same level of accessibility as the game as it currently is. I'm not looking to make it harder. Well... I would want to make it harder, but only in ways specifically directed to players who want a greater challenge. Easy content for casuals, hard content for hardcores, time investments for casuals who need to acquire crutches to complete hardcore content, etc.

What you have suggested is not "harder" it just takes longer, require the person to have less "life"

But reading what you said earlier, it seems like you are an FF11 player, do you like FF11 more than FF14?

 

[Rentahamster]

Seems impossible to balance lvl 90 time req = ilvl 90 time req

A combination of reducing exp needed for next level, and increasing exp granted for doing content so that both times are similar.

What you have suggested is not "harder" it just takes longer, require the person to have less "life"

But reading what you said earlier, it seems like you are an FF11 player, do you like FF11 more than FF14?

I didn't even suggest anything about making the game harder. That was a side comment. My original proposal's intention isn't to make the game harder. That's the whole point of my response to Unknown, which you quoted.

I played FF11 for one year and quit shortly after the NA version released. I was hardly a hardcore player of FF11.

I spent more time playing FF14 than I did playing FF11.

 

[Rentahamster]

Merging character level and item level into one number hurts the experience for the casual user - the majority of subscribers. Hitting character level 50 on one class/job is a big accomplishment for a casual player. Your design concept would reduce that impact because hitting character level 50 would be no different than hitting character level 41, since they're still below cap.

You are too caught up in the concept of a level cap in the context of most mainstream MMOs and what that is supposed to mean.

You're still playing the same game whether or not the cap is 50 or 90. Hitting 50 in my proposal is no less of an accomplishment than it is in the current system. It's still the exact same content and progression. The only thing that's changed is your character level number still goes up instead of being stuck at 50.

 

[gatti-man]

I like the system the way it is except I do think licenses for content is not a bad idea. People keep smashing their heads against titan or garuda ex. Learn to play first then attempt challenging content.

 

[Ken]

I like the system the way it is except I do think licenses for content is not a bad idea. People keep smashing their heads against titan or garuda ex. Learn to play first then attempt challenging content.

People were supposed to learn to play their classes even before HMs and the main scenario trials.

 

[Jayhawk]

You are too caught up in the concept of a level cap in the context of most mainstream MMOs and what that is supposed to mean.

You mean the casual player would be too caught up in the concept of a level cap. And no, the accomplishment of hitting 50 wouldn't be the same to the casual player in your system. Again, you're introducing a system that does nothing except introduce unnecessary time sinks, and doesn't actually convey much about player skill.

 

[Isaccard]

Have fun guys

 

[theSlacker]

Because I want to eliminate unnecessary, meaningless, numbers. Character level 50 is a meaningless number. I also want to avoid the scenario where the entire balance of the game is changed by a simple level cap increase. I want a system where you don't necessarily have to retard character level and inflate ilvl when you add new content.

My proposal doesn't change any of the "good things" you describe in your post. Plus it has the benefits of actually having gear level match character level.

I'm not really going to comment on the rest of the discussion here, but I just want to know if you realize that the concept of ilvl isn't something new, and had been in every mmo you have likely played, just isn't shown directly to the player. It isn't some sort of secondary level or added complexity, it is just the governing attribute on every piece of gear that mandates the allowance of stats on each said piece of gear. It is used as a way to value gear from a development standpoint and only somewhat recently has it started being shown directly to the end player instead of just a hidden attribute. There is no "benefit" to having it match a character level, other then your own personal desire.

All that being said, I do like the idea of gating things behind completing other content, but I also think the game should remove easy teleporting and add travel time to boats and airships.

 

[EscapingJail]

Streaming some Turn 5 in 10-15 minutes.

http://www.twitch.tv/escapingjail/

 

[dark_chris]

Is there anyway to fix the bits of lag on the PS3 version? Im on the pc version and it dosnt happen to me but when i get to the PS3 version, it lags. For the first time, it crashed on me and the PSN logged me out. I dunno what gives that it does that to me.

ALSO
I wanna thank Ultros GAF for helping me get my (second) relic last night.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Can't connect to lobby server? Anyone else?

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm not really going to comment on the rest of the discussion here, but I just want to know if you realize that the concept of ilvl isn't something new, and had been in every mmo you have likely played, just isn't shown directly to the player.

I know that. I've been aware of item level since Diablo 1.

 

[elyetis]

Because I want to eliminate unnecessary, meaningless, numbers. Character level 50 is a meaningless number

It isn't meaningless, it's just not the only answer to know what you can or can't do once you get to level 50. But it's still representative of your class/job skill progression and base stats. Not getting new skill nor base stats from level 50 to level 90 ( which would be the only solution to avoid to completly rebalance the entire endgame content ), then finaly unlocking new skill+base stats from level 90 to level X when we get an addon/new level cap ( which is usually the objective when increasing a level cap ) would be completly stupid imho.

 

[gatti-man]

People were supposed to learn to play their classes even before HMs and the main scenario trials.

Yeah but it doesn't happen. CT is too easy and people sell clears to hm bosses.