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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn |OT3| LFT Full Relic and DL Required
- Thread starter Kokonoe
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In Coil I can sometimes blow it by thinking I have my target with the camera zoomed out, but instead I caught the other tank's target. Having to face the camera in a way that blocks anyone but my mobs can be an issue. Priority targeting is one thing, but it seems like for controllers, there are so many factors around targeting that there's nothing to really fix that won't break something else.
They could make it so the triggers target something close only, but then what happens if you need to snap to something far immediately, etc. It's really sketchy either way. I've considered going M/KB but even then, issues come up so infrequently that it doesn't change much in the long run.
Oh that's cool, I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the tip
I am still against speed runners if they rush forward without you, even if there is no verbal abuse.
That tells me that the speed runner thinks their 10-20 minutes or whatever saved is more important than the hours and hours and hours over weeks/months that the new person put in to get to that point in the story.
To me that is selfish and indefensible, verbal abuse or not.
Missing bosses or even the trip to the boss as it was meant to be played is still harmful to the story experience.
And if anyone wants to claim I am selfish and only thinking of my own interests and have unreal expectations of people, check with NeoGAF's Gravijah how I play. I expect nothing from anyone that I can't do myself. And it's not exactly hard to just respect people and think beyond yourself and what benefits you.
No. I prefer smaller worlds. I'm on Adamantoise and will probably transfer to an even smaller one next week (looking at Brynhildr or Mateus right now).
That tells me that the speed runner thinks their 10-20 minutes or whatever saved is more important than the hours and hours and hours over weeks/months that the new person put in to get to that point in the story.
To me that is selfish and indefensible, verbal abuse or not.
Missing bosses or even the trip to the boss as it was meant to be played is still harmful to the story experience.
And if anyone wants to claim I am selfish and only thinking of my own interests and have unreal expectations of people, check with NeoGAF's Gravijah how I play. I expect nothing from anyone that I can't do myself. And it's not exactly hard to just respect people and think beyond yourself and what benefits you.
are you on ultros freq?
No. I prefer smaller worlds. I'm on Adamantoise and will probably transfer to an even smaller one next week (looking at Brynhildr or Mateus right now).
boo D:
I like you, well-said.
BlitzEngineer
Member
I feel like this debate should really be more centered on the the developers making the end dungeons for the story the only good place to farm a major endgame currency.
The idea that people who rush ahead are ruining the story experience for the newbie is kinda silly. I have to do the place 50 times and expecting me to sit on my hands for 5 minutes for the long cutscenes on every run with a new player is unreasonable, at least to me.
It's just as unreasonable as me expecting them to skip cutscenes so the run can be a few minutes faster.
The end result is there isn't any more reason to hate on the speedrunners than there is to hate on the story-oriented first timers. It's the developers fault for forcing both of these groups into the same instance.
Now verbal abuse is a different story of course, but I'm gonna rush ahead regardless of new players as far as DF is concerned.
The idea that people who rush ahead are ruining the story experience for the newbie is kinda silly. I have to do the place 50 times and expecting me to sit on my hands for 5 minutes for the long cutscenes on every run with a new player is unreasonable, at least to me.
It's just as unreasonable as me expecting them to skip cutscenes so the run can be a few minutes faster.
The end result is there isn't any more reason to hate on the speedrunners than there is to hate on the story-oriented first timers. It's the developers fault for forcing both of these groups into the same instance.
Now verbal abuse is a different story of course, but I'm gonna rush ahead regardless of new players as far as DF is concerned.
The last time I was in CM, the other tank spoke up immediately that it was his first time, so I gladly explained everything to him as we went along. Knowing that it was his first time, I didn't expect him to do all the fancy ninja-sneaking that people are bad at anyway, and pulled a couple extra patrols that we would have run into anyway. Apparently, this was unacceptable, and the dragoon in the group wouldn't shut up with his snide remarks "omg...rite into it..." "srsly....both groups..."
I stopped shortly before the first boss and explained to him (and the group at large) that this was a Duty Finder group, that if they expected a speedrun, they should have formed their own shout group, because frankly, it is unreasonable to be rude and ruin other players' first times through a story mission.
I'm glad that I play a tank, and that in this scenario, the other tank was new and wouldn't rush blindly in, even though a few vocal members of the group were yelling "just go!" "gogogo". There is nothing more annoying than "gogogo!" (besides perhaps having someone else pull for me; SO annoying, but that's a discussion for another day, >.>). I stopped before every single boss arena, and patiently waited for the other tank to watch his cutscenes, and briefly explained the key things to watch out for in the fight. The only boss encounter this impatient group rushed ahead on was the cannon part, but I'll take that as them giving me a 10 minute break.
I haven't been back since...and I largely don't want to, certainly not with players like that.
I stopped shortly before the first boss and explained to him (and the group at large) that this was a Duty Finder group, that if they expected a speedrun, they should have formed their own shout group, because frankly, it is unreasonable to be rude and ruin other players' first times through a story mission.
I'm glad that I play a tank, and that in this scenario, the other tank was new and wouldn't rush blindly in, even though a few vocal members of the group were yelling "just go!" "gogogo". There is nothing more annoying than "gogogo!" (besides perhaps having someone else pull for me; SO annoying, but that's a discussion for another day, >.>). I stopped before every single boss arena, and patiently waited for the other tank to watch his cutscenes, and briefly explained the key things to watch out for in the fight. The only boss encounter this impatient group rushed ahead on was the cannon part, but I'll take that as them giving me a 10 minute break.
I haven't been back since...and I largely don't want to, certainly not with players like that.
I disagree. I think it would behoove you to form your own group or join another with like-minded players who intend to farm these dungeons, and who know that skipping cutscenes will help you do that faster. The developers aren't forcing anyone to use the Duty Finder to pair them with first timers.
Unknown Soldier
Member
We have a regular schedule for the weekends at least. Hentai also made a Google Docs spreadsheet for us to list our availabilities on weekdays, hopefully we can work something out on a weekday going forward. If not, well it's not as if there will be any additional content higher than Coil for 6 months anyways. I don't mind only raiding on weekends as long as our more progression focused folks are okay with it.
Never saw the spreadsheet, PM it to me.
piratepwnsninja
Member
BlitzEngineer
Member
Keep in mind I'm just saying this for the sake of debate, but my argument would be this.
Why is the onus on me to find a like-minded group for a speedrun? Why can't the new player find a group of like-minded players to enjoy the story? In fact, you could say that is already what I'm doing since most people in DF are there to speedrun it and a minority are the ones watching the story.
Now like I said, that's obviously a ridiculous idea. There are no story oriented shout groups happening, nor will there ever be. And speedrunning in an on-server group will be faster anyway.
But players in an MMO, really large groups of people in general, don't operate this way. We follow the path of least resistance generally even if in the end it's less efficient and creates conflict. It's up to the designers to anticipate this, and see that most players that want to farm are going to use the DF, and most players who want to take it slow are going to use the DF, and putting both these players in the same groups creates a toxic environment.
To me, that's the takeaway. You can be annoyed at speedrunners for being rude or ruining the story experience, or you can be annoyed at story-oriented players for wasting your time. Neither of these accomplishes much. At least, recognizing the design flaw here and being vocal about that can have hopefully some small effect on the way the developer's move forward.
I don't blame Square Enix for poor behaviour of the players. I blame the players for poor behaviour of the players.
I am no more or less human than you are and I do not have issues with being considerate to my fellow players.
Arcanist is straight up boringsville. Spamming debuffs for damage isn't as fun as using a Summon in FFXI and doing PREDATOR CLAWS.
They however created a poor environment for speed runners and those interested in the story for the first time at the same time. Adding story mode dungeons required for the finale of the storyline to where it's the best place to farm for endgame items and having no way to differentiate who's in it for what is mind boggling.
They however created a poor environment for speed runners and those interested in the story for the first time at the same time. Adding story mode dungeons required for the finale of the storyline to where it's the best place to farm for endgame items and having no way to differentiate who's in it for what is mind boggling.
Torquill
Member
because that's waaaaaaaaay easier than making a story run group.
You're also the one in a position of knowledge. You know this distinction and concern exists. A story runner who doesn't know about tomes may not know they even need to go out of their way to form a story group.
Torquill
Member
Not really. The intention was to keep the content viable so that story runners wouldn't have trouble finding groups to run the dungeons. They simply under estimated peoples need to min/max their time.
They need to add a story flag to the DF.
It wasn't an issue till they gave AK a kick in the dick as far as speedruns were concerned. Unless they outright remove the rewards from CM/Prae or nerf them to the ground, it will still be the path of least resistance for a lot of people looking to fish philo.
And the devs aren't forcing any first timers to hit it up either. It would behoove them to find a group that wants to experiment as they go.
We can talk a lot about those few, rare, perfect innocents who have never opened a forum thread or listened to shouts in Mor Dhona while they were gaining five levels there, but really by the time you reach CM you should have absorbed a few things:
a) Some people have run dungeons a lot more than you.
b) Some people have never run them.
c) There are tricks to each dungeon that aren't immediately obvious.
d) If you don't know them, asking makes things a lot smoother for everyone involved.
e) If you do know them, teaching makes things a lot smoother than everyone involved.
f) Some people insist on a very fast pace, and some people insist on a very slow one.
There's room for a very obvious compromise here of speaking up at the beginning and dropping if the party you get gets abusive or can't find a middle ground. The entire multiplayer section of the game has been about teaching you to do this, and it should be the culminating point of your people skills along with your technical execution and the plot itself.
If you -can't- reach an arrangement that works for everyone, bow out, or accept someone else bowing out, you're just showing a complete lack of respect for the rest of your party. And this holds true whether you're being an ass and charging headfirst into fights before the rest of the party is ready, or being an ass and going silent/motionless (which punishes the whole party!) because someone rubbed you the wrong way.
Honestly, I'm not sure why people have such a hard time either way. I've seen the first category never (other than speedrunners trying to execute a different strategy than -other- speedrunners), the second category maybe twice, and most cutscene sets are pretty perfectly timed to type out an explanation for the new players in the group.
Can someone post the location of Hentai's Google Docs spreadsheet where people list their availability? I'm usually on at (for North Americans) very odd hours -- 5 PM to 7 PM JT, which is 1 AM to 3 AM Pacific -- and would like to know if many more people around my level (20-ish) are too.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I'll be at work for another 4 or so hours. I'm posting from my phone right now but I'll send it to you this evening.
The intention was that, but in practice we have these issues where people can't watch story mode cutscenes. This isn't their first MMO, I really don't see how it's too hard to see that combining endgame with story mode isn't a good idea as it clashes two separate needs. One being taking the time to enjoy the story, two, designing a dungeon's reward for those interested in farming for endgame specifically. Not everyone who's going to be doing these dungeons has an interest in endgame. A nice idea, but poor execution.
To be honest, I think it would have been better if they did it like Cape Westwind. A story mode flag would indeed be nice, but that also proves my previous point that their idea of keeping content relevant is not working out if a toggle is required which thus separates people. I think a story mode toggle is a solution to that problem, but I still like to point that out.
Did they nerf it or something?
BlitzEngineer
Member
I wasn't capped back then but I believe you used to be able to just run past most of the trash in the instance making a 15 minute AK run possible, making it by far better than CM/Prae for Philo.
tiggerkiddo
Member
So glad I haven't had the displeasure of running into rude speedrunners.
Personally, I think the solution is CMHM.
Beyond that, it would help if everyone involved remembered that if the people who want to watch the story sit through CS, the dungeon takes 10 more minutes that can be filled with retyped strategies; and if the people who want to watch the story bail, the dungeon takes 5 or 10 more minutes while they get replaced, sometimes repeatedly or in waves.
It takes the edge off the impatient people once they're presented with a fait accompli. And bailing is a better option for people who want to take it slow than either missing out on something they care deeply about and having a lot of residual bitterness, or deliberately wiping a group because they're not getting their way.
tiggerkiddo
Member
What about those times when you run into great people on DF and discover they're on a separate server?
You're thinking of Chimera and Hydra
Why do I get the impression that this whole thread hates speedrunners? You'd think after 50 runs of the same boring dungeon you guys would skip those (completely irrelevant, see me) cutscenes.
These stupid dungeons are some of the only stuff to do at 50 and the only way to get gear, who knew people would wanna get it done as fast as possible! Different strokes I guess.
These stupid dungeons are some of the only stuff to do at 50 and the only way to get gear, who knew people would wanna get it done as fast as possible! Different strokes I guess.
I do hate that. I was clamoring for a cross server friends list yesterday.
It's not hate towards speed runners necessarily, it's hate for people who jump into a random DF group, then are abusive to people who are there for the first time and want to experience the story.
BlitzEngineer
Member
I've had some pretty awesome groups in DF and it's always disappointing that I can't even ask them if they want to re-queue. It is early for something like a cross-server friends-list but it's definitely something I'd like.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Only hate speedrunners when they are rushing first time players who want to watch the cutscenes. Just get a group together if you want to speedrun, you're asking for drama if you use the DF.
same thing happened to me... then I got Titan bow first kill
was really pissed/happy at the moment, didn't really know how to feel lol
you don't need Ifrit bow btw, I killed Titan with the company weapon
What else do you have, for weapons and for other stuff? If you're decently geared in Wanderer's Palace drops or HQ jewelry and running around with an HQ relic precursor, you should be fine for AK (at least as DPS) and Garuda shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Pretty much.
On Siren I see people charge 700k just for Titan and 1.5m for Hydra through Titan.
Obviously it's the easy way out but I guess if you're swimming in gil it can be an attractive option.
Is a relic worth your dignity though? Bought relics are forever NQ relics to me, I give my friend shit all the time for it.
Me too. PM the spreadsheet please. (Sumie)
TyphoonStruggle
Member
RE: Speed Runs
It seems there's quite a lot of hate towards speed runners, but let's imagine that the end-game farm didn't require story dungeon. Then suddenly, it becomes much harder for people to find help to progress in their story. I can just similarly say, if you want to watch cutscene create your own cutscene party. Obviously creating cutscene parties would be MUCH harder. I think it's a necessary evil at this point.
It seems there's quite a lot of hate towards speed runners, but let's imagine that the end-game farm didn't require story dungeon. Then suddenly, it becomes much harder for people to find help to progress in their story. I can just similarly say, if you want to watch cutscene create your own cutscene party. Obviously creating cutscene parties would be MUCH harder. I think it's a necessary evil at this point.
I have a better idea. Let's imagine a game where people are not complete jerks toward each other and actually don't mind helping someone out while they're also getting something out of it too.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
I have a better idea. Let's imagine world peace.
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