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[theSlacker]

It is mandatory. Unless you never want to unlock retainers and airships and chocobos.

So it's mandatory, except when its not. Cool.

 

[frequency]

So it's mandatory, except when its not. Cool.

/huh

You can't play the game without at least airships. It's mandatory. Plus say you got through those 3 and Ifrit and then just did FATEs or whatever all the way to 50. Then you're still locked in that you can't continue with any of the content until you go back to do the main story quests. They're mandatory.

People have reported wait times of 40 minutes to 4 hours. Some people are time constrained. Other MMORPGs exist that do not have these walls yet have more active dungeons.

Thanks for the snark though. That'll teach me to be empathetic!

 

[theSlacker]

What?

You can't really play the game without at least airships. It's mandatory. Plus say you got through those 3 and Ifrit and then just did FATEs or whatever all the way to 50. Then you're still locked in that you can't continue with any of the content until you go back to do the main story quests. They're mandatory.

People have reported wait times of 40 minutes to 4 hours. Some people are time constrained. Other MMORPGs exist that do not have these walls yet have more active dungeons.

Not going to feel bad in any way that people who want to skip though part of the game's experience don't get the full game's experience. If anything, the game needs more things that hold you back from reaching cap so fast so that people don't get to be disappointed by the endgame so fast.

Other mmorpgs also have much more full feeling meaningful gameworlds, better combat systems, and more customization. All of that doesn't stop people from playing this game, so what makes you think that actually having to play parts of the game would? Out of all the things that this game does wrong, gating content behind having to actually play with other people is not one of them.

 

[frequency]

Pretty sure I just did. Not going to feel bad in any way that people who want to skip though part of the game's experience don't get the full game's experience. If anything, the game needs more things that hold you back from reaching cap so fast so that people don't get to be disappointed by the endgame so fast.

Other mmorpgs also have much more full feeling meaningful gameworlds, better combat systems, and more customization. All of that doesn't stop people from playing this game, so what makes you think that actually having to play parts of the game would? Out of all the things that this game does wrong, gating content behind having to actually play with other people is not one of them.

You're playing the game without airships?
Congratulations I guess? I hope you're not in La Noscea. You literally can't go to/from La Noscea without airship (which you need to unlock the ferry).

I don't think anyone is saying they want to skip content. It's just saying the long queue times (which has many causes) is bad. Because you're locked from going forward without doing these and if you're time constrained, you may not be able to sit there for 40 minutes to 4 hours so you can do a 1 hour duty that may or may not fail.

That's not very good design.

It's not about avoiding playing with other people at all...

 

[theSlacker]

You're playing the game without airships?
Congratulations I guess? I hope you're not in La Noscea. You literally can't go to/from La Noscea without airship (which you need to unlock the ferry).

I don't think anyone is saying they want to skip content. It's just saying the long queue times (which has many causes) is bad. Because you're locked from going forward without doing these and if you're time constrained, you may not be able to sit there for 40 minutes to 4 hours so you can do a 1 hour duty that may or may not fail.

That's not very good design.

It's not about avoiding playing with other people at all...

Yeah, misread the first line of your post to say "You can't say you can play the game without airships". Opps.

Catering around the "time constrained" has squeezed out too much depth and gameplay from mmorpgs already, while giving little in return. Sure I may not want to return to the ff11 style of needing 6 people to take a walk and pick flowers, but that doesn't mean I think set choke points to get key things requiring parties is a bad thing. Shout in town, make friends, form a community if you want to get that stuff done fast as time goes by. Just because it is something you don't like, doesn't make it bad game design. It could also mean that the game just isn't for you.

Spoiler

Although as more and more time passes it seems like the genre is becoming less and less for me.

 

[frequency]

Yeah, misread the first line of your post to say "You can't say you can play the game without airships". Opps.

Catering around the "time constrained" has squeezed out too much depth and gameplay from mmorpgs already, while giving little in return. Sure I may not want to return to the ff11 style of needing 6 people to take a walk and pick flowers, but that doesn't mean I think set choke points to get key things requiring parties is a bad thing. Shout in town, make friends, form a community if you want to get that stuff done fast as time goes by. Just because it is something you don't like, doesn't make it bad game design. It could also mean that the game just isn't for you.

Spoiler

Although as more and more time passes it seems like the genre is becoming less and less for me.

I'm a huge fan of older MMORPG designs myself. But I also understand the modern MMORPG gamer and the audience in general for games is just older (contrary to popular belief that it's all for impatient kids now).

Time constraints are a real thing. People have families and jobs and responsibilities that mean they can't sit in front of the computer 5 hours a night.

I definitely want a community requirement to still exist. I will argue with anyone until I run out of breath for the social and community aspects of MMORPGs. But it's still no good to lock main progress pre-maximum level like they do here.

You can't do Coil without a group (you can't use Duty Finder for it). You can't even do the Relic quest line without some social aspect (like Hydra and stuff isn't available in Duty Finder). That kind of locked content is perfectly fine. But a level 20 lock of 3 dungeons in a row followed by Ifrit to progress is too much. I believe none of the pre-raid content should be locked behind a hope that 3 other people of the right classes somewhere in the world are wanting to do it at the same time you are.

This was all fine and good in the first month of launch. But now that there are less people doing it, it's very much a frustrating barrier for new players who just want to progress. It's not so different from sitting in Jeuno or wherever shouting for someone to help you with Rank 5 for the airship pass forever in FFXI. Except here it's not just a convenience and is required if you want to keep playing the game.

I agree with you in theory. It's just much of the implementation of this in FFXIV:ARR is very short sighted.

 

[MetatronM]

It's an MMORPG for a reason.

You have to learn how to work in a group by level 20 or else you're going to be woefully behind later and never going to learn. It helps if you socialize early and get into a Free Company too where somebody might join you and make it easier to get into the dungeon (or even fill up a party without even needing to use the DF at all). You're not going to learn without doing.

XI had the same kind of check in roughly the same place in terms of level progression, except there it was even worse because you HAD to party up to do ANYTHING. At least in XIV it's only a handful of specific raids that don't block anything but story progression (which you technically don't even need to do to get to 50).

 

[theSlacker]

But it's still no good to lock main progress pre-maximum level like they do here.

Why? Why is the only thing that is suppose to mater the stuff at cap, and not the journey to it? Please tell me why. People make these statements all the time and I am puzzled by them every time. I have the same problem with the current "teleport wherever you want, as any class you want" trend that is in mmorpgs right now. Why has everything in mmorpgs become the end, and not getting there? You just said without a doubt in your mind that it is no good to lock things before cap, like it is some given fact. As if the thought didn't even occur to you that the game doesn't have to start at the end.

Really, we are just going to have to agree to disagree since the entire basis of your argument is something that is so wrong to me that it remains incomprehensible. That it is a set fact that the only thing that should mater is the end. That because people have families and kids and jobs that games have to become worse and only cater to them. I say that last part sarcastically since it is only this obsession with getting to the end at all times that makes people feel like their game time was wasted if they aren't getting to that end super fast.

This game is a key example of that mindset. The world is small and unexplorable, guiding you along a set path the entire way surrounded by invisible walls, from which you can look though to see pretty things. The only thing along the way that takes any effort is apparently bad game design. Five years ago I would half laughed at the thought of playing a mmorpg like this, but here I am with nothing better to play now, watching as people want to remove a small good thing the game has. I say again, this genre is just becoming less and less for me.

 

[frequency]

It's an MMORPG for a reason.

You have to learn how to work in a group by level 20 or else you're going to be woefully behind later and never going to learn. It helps if you socialize early and get into a Free Company too where somebody might join you and make it easier to get into the dungeon (or even fill up a party without even needing to use the DF at all). You're not going to learn without doing.

XI had the same kind of check in roughly the same place in terms of level progression, except there it was even worse because you HAD to party up to do ANYTHING. At least in XIV it's only a handful of specific raids that don't block anything but story progression (which you technically don't even need to do to get to 50).

Like I said, it's not about avoiding playing with other people. A large percentage of other people (and the ratio will just get more and more unbalanced over time) are passed the content you are on. You want to join them but you can't because of this. None of this is about "I don't want the multiplayer part of MMORPG!"

Also, even FFXI gave up on that requirement for leveling and you can solo effectively all the way to maximum level now. But of course to do the interesting end game content you need to socialise. Which is the way it should be.

And there are a billion bad Free Companies with selfish people for every good one (which is why we always suggest people join with their community, NeoGAF or wherever). Duty Finder is often the only option for many people. I just don't think it's really all that fair to blame a person for using Duty Finder (whatever the circumstances) so they can progress beyond this arbitrary wall and complaining that they have extremely long queue times.

It sucks for them. And it is caused by a short sighted design decision. There is a reason almost all other MMORPGs don't lock level progression behind group instances. Does Square doing that here make the FFXIV:ARR community so much better than other MMORPGs? Not really... So in practice you have all the cons without any theoretical pros.

Why? Why is the only thing that is suppose to mater the stuff at cap, and not the journey to it? Please tell me why. People make these statements all the time and I am puzzled by them every time. I have the same problem with the current "teleport wherever you want, as any class you want" trend that is in mmorpgs right now. Why has everything in mmorpgs become the end, and not getting there? You just said without a doubt in your mind that it is no good to lock things before cap, like it is some given fact. As if the thought didn't even occur to you that the game doesn't have to start at the end.

Really, we are just going to have to agree to disagree since the entire basis of your argument is something that is so wrong to me that it remains incomprehensible. That it is a set fact that the only thing that should mater is the end. That because people have families and kids and jobs that games have to become worse and only cater to them. I say that last part sarcastically since it is only this obsession with getting to the end at all times that makes people feel like their game time was wasted if they aren't getting to that end super fast.

This game is a key example of that mindset. The world is small and unexplorable, guiding you along a set path the entire way surrounded by invisible walls, from which you can look though to see pretty things. The only thing along the way that takes any effort is apparently bad game design. Five years ago I would half laughed at the thought of playing a mmorpg like this, but here I am with nothing better to play now, watching as people want to remove a small good thing the game has. I say again, this genre is just becoming less and less for me.

The journey would be the main focus of my ideal MMORPGs. But that's not what we have here. FFXIV:ARR isn't that kind of game. Yoshida himself has said he wants this to be end game focused.

I've accepted this game for what it is and working within the parameters of it to make it better. The game you're looking for isn't found in FFXIV:ARR.

You have experience with other MMORPGs. Tell me, does this arbitrary lock in FFXIV:ARR make this game more like what you want compared to the others? Does New Player A being stuck on Satasha improve your community experience more than the other games available that don't have these locks?

 

[Dunlop]

I ran a dungeon last night (tam tam) where there was

Conjurer (me)
2 x Archer
Thaumaturge

We had no tank so aggro control was out the window..I loved it because the early dungeons seem to be mind boggling easy to heal but how did the LFG tool let a party be formed without a tank?

 

[devious.one]

In 2.1 there will be more people frequenting earlier dungeons due to the 'Random Dungeon' system for Tomes and other rewards, hopefully the long queue times get dropped down a notch for everything pre-50.

 

[Aeana]

The random dungeon thing is the thing I'm most excited about for 2.1 outside of Crystal Tower.

 

[Devilgunman]

I ran a dungeon last night (tam tam) where there was

Conjurer (me)
2 x Archer
Thaumaturge

We had no tank so aggro control was out the window..I loved it because the early dungeons seem to be mind boggling easy to heal but how did the LFG tool let a party be formed without a tank?

Did you use DF? You can only form a group like that manually unless DF has bugs.

 

[Dunlop]

Did you use DF? You can only form a group like that manually unless DF has bugs.

yeah, I am using the dungeonfinder to get the conjurer part of my toon up to 20 so I can get a mount (at 19 now) then I will go back to leveling his Arcanist class to decide which type of healing I like better.

My initial goal is for a White Mage, but the Arcanist seems pretty fun also so maybe scholar?

(just got the game this week so I am noobsauce)

 

[theSlacker]

You have experience with other MMORPGs. Tell me, does this arbitrary lock in FFXIV:ARR make this game more like what you want compared to the others? Does New Player A being stuck on Satasha improve your community experience more than the other games available that don't have these locks?

It is absolutely something that I feel is necessary in this game, completely independent of other games and their design. This game is so small and short that removing the few set barriers to instant progression I feel would come at a determent to the game as a whole. Anything from even more people just not understanding how to play their class at cap, to them getting to the end and realizing, wow it's fucking nothing. Yoshida can say all he wants about what he feels is the important part of the game but for it to mater the game would have to actually reflect his statements. It does not. The only part of the game that really stands out compared to other mmorpgs is how much like a single player story the main scenario has, while still requiring the the group play and some of the depth of a mmorpg. This is the thing people want to remove. The one stand out feature of the game.

 

[frequency]

It is absolutely something that I feel is necessary in this game, completely independent of other games and their design. This game is so small and short that removing the few set barriers to instant progression I feel would come at a determent to the game as a whole. Anything from even more people just not understanding how to play their class at cap, to them getting to the end and realizing, wow it's fucking nothing. Yoshida can say all he wants about what he feels is the important part of the game but for it to mater the game would have to actually reflect his statements. It does not. The only part of the game that really stands out compared to other mmorpgs is how much like a single player story the main scenario has, while still requiring the the group play and some of the depth of a mmorpg. This is the thing people want to remove. The one stand out feature of the game.

Interesting perspective.

I know I'm arguing against you and you probably think I totally don't get it. But from my side, I think we would like similar MMORPGs.

However I disagree and am debating from the other side here because I myself do not see the benefits of these locks in this specific game. The community is, to me, worse than other MMORPGs. So I don't see that benefit to it.

People are just as skilled or just as unskilled here as any other game. I see no difference in that regard.

What I see here though is a not insignificant amount of new players 2 months into this game with a very big time barrier. Overcoming this barrier has absolutely no impact on their abilities, nor does it encourage socialisation.

I regularly run the dungeons below myself to help new players through and because I just enjoy small group play. We often try to socialise and give advice when it's appropriate. The amount of social players and receptive players is no different from other MMORPGs from my experience (which is of course anecdotal evidence so...).

So all I'm seeing is people that want to play. Many are solo-minded players. Which, whatever. But many are also just looking to progress. They want to continue and join the rest of the community which has largely moved on. And they can't in a reasonable way.

I find it curious you feel this community is superior to others and that this design is what makes it so. Perhaps it's a server difference.


If 2.1 fixes this then my argument is invalid. I sincerely hope 2.1 fixes this.

 

[Devilgunman]

The only part of the game that really stands out compared to other mmorpgs is how much like a single player story the main scenario has, while still requiring the the group play and some of the depth of a mmorpg. This is the thing people want to remove. The one stand out feature of the game.

Agreed. I really like the main stories (even though many main quests are just fillers). The end game right now is just a grindfest for completionist or anyone who wants a real challenge.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

I enjoy running dungeons so the random dungeon thing is a-okay with me.

 

[Dunlop]

I enjoy running dungeons so the random dungeon thing is a-okay with me.

Yeah, that and raiding are my main enjoyments in MMO's

I'm hoping the dungeons get a little more complex, but at the same time once they do if I am running with random people it might not be great.....

I've run the Tam Tam and whatever the one was before it about 5x each, I notice almost no variation in loot drops. Is this normal?

 

[WolvenOne]

Okay, so, I mentioned this last night, but I'm going to try setting up a semi-static Coil group today, for those of use who haven't managed to progress very far into the place yet.

So, I usually log on sometime between, 8-9PM Mountain Time, which is 7-8pm West Coast time, and 10-11pm East Coast Time.

Anyone whose on around that time, and wants to get Coil done, should let me know. If we can set up a decent group, it should only take an hour or so, two or so nights a week, to get to turn four. That is of course, after a week or two of practice, and slowly accumulating drops.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Okay, so, I mentioned this last night, but I'm going to try setting up a semi-static Coil group today, for those of use who haven't managed to progress very far into the place yet.

So, I usually log on sometime between, 8-9PM Mountain Time, which is 7-8pm West Coast time, and 10-11pm East Coast Time.

Anyone whose on around that time, and wants to get Coil done, should let me know. If we can set up a decent group, it should only take an hour or so, two or so nights a week, to get to turn four. That is of course, after a week or two of practice, and slowly accumulating drops.

I'd tag along, but all I got is mah WAR.

 

[WolvenOne]

I'd tag along, but all I got is mah WAR.

Heh, well I'm WAR, and it certainly didn't seem to be a huge detriment in Turn 1. Usually the healers would die before I did. Not always of course, but it always felt like I was lasting plenty long.

 

[Aeroangel]

Why? Why is the only thing that is suppose to mater the stuff at cap, and not the journey to it? Please tell me why. People make these statements all the time and I am puzzled by them every time. I have the same problem with the current "teleport wherever you want, as any class you want" trend that is in mmorpgs right now. Why has everything in mmorpgs become the end, and not getting there? You just said without a doubt in your mind that it is no good to lock things before cap, like it is some given fact. As if the thought didn't even occur to you that the game doesn't have to start at the end.

Really, we are just going to have to agree to disagree since the entire basis of your argument is something that is so wrong to me that it remains incomprehensible. That it is a set fact that the only thing that should mater is the end. That because people have families and kids and jobs that games have to become worse and only cater to them. I say that last part sarcastically since it is only this obsession with getting to the end at all times that makes people feel like their game time was wasted if they aren't getting to that end super fast.

This game is a key example of that mindset. The world is small and unexplorable, guiding you along a set path the entire way surrounded by invisible walls, from which you can look though to see pretty things. The only thing along the way that takes any effort is apparently bad game design. Five years ago I would half laughed at the thought of playing a mmorpg like this, but here I am with nothing better to play now, watching as people want to remove a small good thing the game has. I say again, this genre is just becoming less and less for me.

Hear me out here. I am all for exploration - the sense of discovery, excitement, challenge, etc. However having to repeat an unnecessary timesink (e.g. walking somewhere an hour each time, or watching you character being transported somewhere for 20 minutes) does not enhance a game in anyway and is a needless timesink. I see no reason why there can't be a balance which can cater to the "hard core" and cater to people with time constraints.

I am certainly all for making the earlier dungeons a LOT more challenging and providing more incentive so that players can become much more competent (and more challenging is definitely more fun and rewarding than facerolling content). I understand why they have designed fates the way they do so that more people will co-operate, but I truly hope they can find a good balance that will make dungeons as good if not better for leveling.

The point of my rant is kill time sinks in MMO's and let's progress toward more gameplay mechanics, story, atmosphere, and difficulty. If you demand on a time sink, give us those minigames I'll gladly waste time in an MMO if it's something FUN =)

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Heh, well I'm WAR, and it certainly didn't seem to be a huge detriment in Turn 1. Usually the healers would die before I did. Not always of course, but it always felt like I was lasting plenty long.

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Is the first turn able to be done with two WARs? I just assumed it wasn't but I know nothing of Coil. I have it unlocked but haven't bothered with it yet, so it'd be my first time anyway. We have a couple in the Company ready to do it though. One thing we are short on right now is healers, so we can offer about five or six reliable people that are not that.

 

[Devilgunman]

If you demand on a time sink, give us those minigames I'll gladly waste time in an MMO if it's something FUN =)

Disciples of the Hand and Disciples of the Land are available for that reason.

 

[theSlacker]

I find it curious you feel this community is superior to others and that this design is what makes it so. Perhaps it's a server difference.

Well I don't think that. I think that it is because of these barriers that the community of this game is able to remain at least equivalent with other mmos, while having massive negative aspects of the game when also compared to those other mmos. That pared with the fact that these design choices highlight, and force you onto, the only really quality aspect of this game when compared to others, is what makes me hope they aren't removed. People having to put a little extra time into shouting for a group, or waiting around in the game forcing them to make conversations and connections with other players is much better for this community then letting them just grind it out to cap, find out there is nothing, and leave. I can without a doubt tell you that the only reason I am still playing this game is the social connections I have made with other players. If for one second I thought I could convince them to come with me to another, better, game,

Spoiler

of if I believed one existed that I haven't already milked all the enjoyment out of

I would.

My words aren't the rantings and ravings of some square fanboy/apologist, to whom square can do no wrong. I will tell you that there are aspects of this game that are flat out bad, with no redeeming qualities, and that most of the other aspects are just sub par. The game locking story progression behind a handful of forced parting, all of which you can even just decide to wait for the game to make a party for you instead of forming connections on your own, isn't one of those bad or sup par things. I do notice that most of the people that complain about this, complains about how long that automated system takes, and not that they spent hours in chat talking to people and couldn't get a party though.

 

[Aeroangel]

Disciples of the Hand and Disciples of the Land are available for that reason.

I keep hearing they are fun, but I have some severe apprehensions from experience with crafting in other MMO's. I'll get around to it once I finally have my level 50. I've wasted so much time leveling 3 different jobs to level 30'ish =(

Spoiler

Want to buy a test any job at level 50 button >

 

[theSlacker]

Hear me out here. I am all for exploration - the sense of discovery, excitement, challenge, etc. However having to repeat an unnecessary timesink (e.g. walking somewhere an hour each time, or watching you character being transported somewhere for 20 minutes) does not enhance a game in anyway and is a needless timesink. I see no reason why there can't be a balance which can cater to the "hard core" and cater to people with time constraints.

I am certainly all for making the earlier dungeons a LOT more challenging and providing more incentive so that players can become much more competent (and more challenging is definitely more fun and rewarding than facerolling content). I understand why they have designed fates the way they do so that more people will co-operate, but I truly hope they can find a good balance that will make dungeons as good if not better for leveling.

The point of my rant is kill time sinks in MMO's and let's progress toward more gameplay mechanics, story, atmosphere, and difficulty. If you demand on a time sink, give us those minigames I'll gladly waste time in an MMO if it's something FUN =)

Arguing sort of separate point, but I disagree anyway that travel time adds nothing to a mmorpg. It can add depth to the gameworld, and make said gameworld more alive, instead of just the useless facade you skip to get to the REAL game content. Alive in that you will see more people out and about, actually doing stuff, instead of just gathered around a teleport crystal in reverent toll afk. That being said the game world itself has to be designed around this, offering options for travel, various things to do, dangers and challenges, and not just be one set path surrounded by invisible walls. Making the journey itself more of the game then just what you do when you reach your destination. So no, it would not fit in the world of FFXIV.

However the "journey" I was talking about in the post you quoted was more of a big picture, or metaphorical one, even if aspects of it can also be contributed to actually in game travel times.

As for the dungeons, meh, I don't really have a problem with their difficulty in this game. Some of the solo duties could offer more challenge, like they originally did, but that's already been shot down. What I would like from dungeons and instances is for them to be more of a part of the gameworld

Spoiler

(I say this word a lot, don't I?)

, and not only a series of rooms that you can only enter with the correct number of people, and only enter there to kill stuff in. Should be more things you can enter and leave whenever you want, and have things like gathering nodes, quest npcs, and static events in. Think like BRD in WoW. Place was massive, and offered more then just "go in and kill". There seems to be something really wonky with how they handle putting your character into an instance and how their systems even handle instances so I don't expect this to ever happen, just saying.

 

[tiggerkiddo]

Yeah, that and raiding are my main enjoyments in MMO's

I'm hoping the dungeons get a little more complex, but at the same time once they do if I am running with random people it might not be great.....

I've run the Tam Tam and whatever the one was before it about 5x each, I notice almost no variation in loot drops. Is this normal?

Dungeon drops remain the same for the first 3 dungeons actually.

 

[WolvenOne]

Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Is the first turn able to be done with two WARs? I just assumed it wasn't but I know nothing of Coil. I have it unlocked but haven't bothered with it yet, so it'd be my first time anyway. We have a couple in the Company ready to do it though. One thing we are short on right now is healers, so we can offer about five or six reliable people that are not that.

Strictly speaking, I don't think there's anything that prevents all five Coils from being done with just WARs. I don't think Stuns work on any of these bosses, and while War's do keep Healers a bit more busy, they certainly have the raw stats for any fight I've read of. Assuming of course the mechanics are being executed properly.

PLD's are just, easier from what I've read. For example, from what I've read, once static coil groups have a couple drops, they often just let the PLD's go CD crazy, while the DPS focus on burning down the Boss(es).

Now, strictly speaking, I don't think there's anything preventing WAR's from doing this as well. They probably just need to be geared, "slightly," better than a PLD would have to be. Until then you're likely stuck playing the game mechanics as intended.

Thing is, I'm determined to make War work. Mainly just to spite all the folks that refuse to party with them. Also, because it'd offer me some degree of leet points, especially if I could pull it off before the Buff.

 

[ZetaEpyon]

Personally, I'm OK with having mandatory dungeons as a part of the main storyline. However, where I think they could have done it better is by having them spaced out a little bit and not back-to-back-to-back (at least for the early ones, I have less of an issue with the last few).

It's that stacking that creates a real roadblock for people - even those looking for help from their friends. At least if they were spaced out a bit, you could still get a sense of progression and accomplishing something by leveling up in the gaps in-between.

 

[arimanius]

I've already re-rolled a PLD and gotten it to 50. The funny thing is that I started the PLD back up after they announced WAR would be buffed, because first that won't be until 2.1 and no one knows when that will be and second no one knows the nature of the buffs.

And then the Allagan Shield dropped in Turn 1 a few days ago, so my PLD already has it's first Coil drop even though I haven't finished the relic quest yet.

I've started to level up PLD even more but honestly I find it rather boring compared to WAR. I've tried my hand and ARC which is fun, so if war isn't fixed I may go that route or just quit.

 

[Aeroangel]

Arguing sort of separate point, but I disagree anyway that travel time adds nothing to a mmorpg. It can add depth to the gameworld, and make said gameworld more alive, instead of just the useless facade you skip to get to the REAL game content. Alive in that you will see more people out and about, actually doing stuff, instead of just gathered around a teleport crystal in reverent toll afk. That being said the game world itself has to be designed around this, offering options for travel, various things to do, dangers and challenges, and not just be one set path surrounded by invisible walls. Making the journey itself more of the game then just what you do when you reach your destination. So no, it would not fit in the world of FFXIV.

However the "journey" I was talking about in the post you quoted was more of a big picture, or metaphorical one, even if aspects of it can also be contributed to actually in game travel times.

As for the dungeons, meh, I don't really have a problem with their difficulty in this game. Some of the solo duties could offer more challenge, like they originally did, but that's already been shot down. What I would like from dungeons and instances is for them to be more of a part of the gameworld

Spoiler

(I say this word a lot, don't I?)

, and not only a series of rooms that you can only enter with the correct number of people, and only enter there to kill stuff in. Should be more things you can enter and leave whenever you want, and have things like gathering nodes, quest npcs, and static events in. Think like BRD in WoW. Place was massive, and offered more then just "go in and kill". There seems to be something really wonky with how they handle putting your character into an instance and how their systems even handle instances so I don't expect this to ever happen, just saying.

I spent many years playing WoW so I certainly understand where you are coming from. However I do see people running around wherever I go, and even in WoW people grouped in the cities for rested EXP as well?? The little tram in WoW was cool, but I do not miss those stupid pointless griffon rides. If I want to chat with people in the game I do not need a game to force my character into submission.

It would be cool if they bring some sort of world PvP to the game. Some of my best gaming memories from WoW involved world PvP, and I have fond memories from this in Warhammer online as well.

Spoiler

One of my all time favorite memories from WoW when they let us turn into zombies and run around infecting each other

But if that's not what people want, just give us more reasons to go out and about in the world. The way this game is set up, I'm not sure if you could ever have a huge sense of exploration, but I prefer the way it is to the extremely linear FF games of late.

 

[WolvenOne]

I've started to level up PLD even more but honestly I find it rather boring compared to WAR. I've tried my hand and ARC which is fun, so if war isn't fixed I may go that route or just quit.

Yeah, WAR just has some interesting game play mechanics to it. You're constantly juggling Wrath stacks, constantly making a judgement about whether to use Buffs, Leeching attacks, AoE's, etc. PLD's on the other hand, have a far more basic mechanic to them. I'd almost call it a passive mechanic, since for a lot of boss fights, all they have to do is hit the occasional CD and go through their aggro rotation to survive.

The difference of course, is that the CD's on PLD, are a little overpowered in comparison to the WAR CD's, and that WAR's stun is kinda gimped.

Buff WAR's CD's, and put their stun on par with PLD, and that would instantly clear up 90% of the disparity. PLD's would still likely have slightly better defense of course, but since WAR have been DPS, it'd about even out.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Strictly speaking, I don't think there's anything that prevents all five Coils from being done with just WARs.

Well I should be on during the times you posted. Just send me a /tell then and I'll see if I can get something going.

 

[WolvenOne]

Well I should be on during the times you posted. Just send me a /tell then and I'll see if I can get something going.

Okay, now just to avoid confusion, what's your name in game? Mine's N'uadha Tia, a name I'm certain everyone is sadly familiar with, given how much of a motormouth I am on the FC chat logs. XD.

Also, going back to the issue of WAR's, and potential ways to buff them.

Now, this is mainly just me speculating, but personally, rather than crazy buffing the WAR's CD's, I think I'd actually prefer subtle CD adjustments, and the option to Stack 10 Wraths instead of 5.

Now, ideally, I'd also love to see + Versions of all the Wrath Moves, that used up all 10 Stacks, but either way I think that'd be a far more interesting mechanic than just, constantly relying on passive CD's.

I mean, just imagine situations where you have to decide between keeping you Crit/Heal Buff, and using a Leech attack that gives the same Healing as a Benediction? Those sort of decisions are difficult enough when you're talking about a subtle Heal/Crit Buff and a Cure 2 Leech attack. If the second tier versions were the equivalent of a massive Heal/Crit buff and a Benediction, WAR gameplay would all be about high risk verses high reward.

 

[theSlacker]

I spent many years playing WoW so I certainly understand where you are coming from. However I do see people running around wherever I go, and even in WoW people grouped in the cities for rested EXP as well?? The little tram in WoW was cool, but I do not miss those stupid pointless griffon rides. If I want to chat with people in the game I do not need a game to force my character into submission.

The fact that you do not miss them is irrelevant, it is an aspect that added to the overall feel of the game, and gave purpose to travel and the world at large. It isn't just the time to "chat" but the scope and depth actual travel time adds to the gameworld. As I said before, this is something that has to be worked into a game from the start, and the world needs to be designed around it so it isn't even relevant to FFXIV, as I don't think anything short of another remake without ps3 could make it's world good in that way.

It is also super good that you don't need a reason to chat with people, but that isn't the case for many people. Providing reasons and opportunities to connect with other players is what forms a community, even if it is just to complain to eachother about how shitty the wait for something is.

I do not believe that any kind of world pvp would fit in this game either. Try hitting anything moving as a melee class to find out why. The best we can hope for is some kind of arenas with completely different skills. Just saying that pvp isn't some sort of bandaid that makes any game better, but the fact that the core systems in another game you mentioned allowed for such varied gameplay experiences is an example of one of the failings of the systems of this game. There is also no "us and them" mentality for this game, and games without that turn into "me and my friends vs everybody else", that causes there to be no real reason to engage in pvp unless that is what you were already looking to do. If that makes sense.

but since WAR have been DPS, it'd about even out.

WAR is not dps. They do the same amount as a PLD, just a bit more bursty.

 

[pitbull]

Okay, now just to avoid confusion, what's your name in game? Mine's N'uadha Tia, a name I'm certain everyone is sadly familiar with, given how much of a motormouth I am on the FC chat logs. XD.

Also, going back to the issue of WAR's, and potential ways to buff them.

Now, this is mainly just me speculating, but personally, rather than crazy buffing the WAR's CD's, I think I'd actually prefer subtle CD adjustments, and the option to Stack 10 Wraths instead of 5.

Now, ideally, I'd also love to see + Versions of all the Wrath Moves, that used up all 10 Stacks, but either way I think that'd be a far more interesting mechanic than just, constantly relying on passive CD's.

I mean, just imagine situations where you have to decide between keeping you Crit/Heal Buff, and using a Leech attack that gives the same Healing as a Benediction? Those sort of decisions are difficult enough when you're talking about a subtle Heal/Crit Buff and a Cure 2 Leech attack. If the second tier versions were the equivalent of a massive Heal/Crit buff and a Benediction, WAR gameplay would all be about high risk verses high reward.

Illy will let you borrow his "How to buff wars" book, he spent many late nights finishing it.
But alas he caved and realized he couldn't survive another month as a coil war.

 

[WolvenOne]

WAR is not dps. They do the same amount as a PLD, just a bit more bursty.

WAR is not DPS, but they definitely hit harder than PLD's. Not a ton harder, but definitely harder.

 

[Aeroangel]

The fact that you do not miss them is irrelevant, it is an aspect that added to the overall feel of the game, and gave purpose to travel and the world at large. It isn't just the time to "chat" but the scope and depth actual travel time adds to the gameworld. As I said before, this is something that has to be worked into a game from the start, and the world needs to be designed around it so it isn't even relevant to FFXIV, as I don't think anything short of another remake without ps3 could make it's world good in that way.

It is also super good that you don't need a reason to chat with people, but that isn't the case for many people. Providing reasons and opportunities to connect with other players is what forms a community, even if it is just to complain to eachother about how shitty the wait for something is.

I do not believe that any kind of world pvp would fit in this game either. Try hitting anything moving as a melee class to find out why. The best we can hope for is some kind of arenas with completely different skills. Just saying that pvp isn't some sort of bandaid that makes any game better, but the fact that the core systems in another game you mentioned allowed for such varied gameplay experiences is an example of one of the failings of the systems of this game. There is also no "us and them" mentality for this game, and games without that turn into "me and my friends vs everybody else", that causes there to be no real reason to engage in pvp unless that is what you were already looking to do. If that makes sense.



WAR is not dps. They do the same amount as a PLD, just a bit more bursty.

This is ludicrous. Why pay for something and dedicate time to something that would cause communication based solely off of complaining?

Spoiler

We're talking about video games here, not forums

Give gamers a GOOD and FUN reason/motivation/incentive to communicate. This is my opinion. The griffon ride was run maybe the first few times, but the 100th time - no.

Why can't we just have more things that require skill (which in turn, for a multiplayer game would require communication....) and not just time dedication.

 

[Teknoman]

The random dungeon thing is the thing I'm most excited about for 2.1 outside of Crystal Tower.

So crystal tower is definitely 2.1 then?

 

[frequency]

Well I don't think that. I think that it is because of these barriers that the community of this game is able to remain at least equivalent with other mmos, while having massive negative aspects of the game when also compared to those other mmos. That pared with the fact that these design choices highlight, and force you onto, the only really quality aspect of this game when compared to others, is what makes me hope they aren't removed. People having to put a little extra time into shouting for a group, or waiting around in the game forcing them to make conversations and connections with other players is much better for this community then letting them just grind it out to cap, find out there is nothing, and leave. I can without a doubt tell you that the only reason I am still playing this game is the social connections I have made with other players. If for one second I thought I could convince them to come with me to another, better, game,

Spoiler

of if I believed one existed that I haven't already milked all the enjoyment out of

I would.

That may be the case. I don't think it is but we can't really know.
The story aspects are my favourite part of this game and I don't think forced Satasha/Tam Tara/Copperbell/Ifrit in a row at level 20 help with that. The dungeons that do have story, I think it's negative. The amount of drama over watching cutscenes is still negatively impacting my view of the overall community of FFXIV:ARR.

I think I like this game more than you though. And I am thinking longer term about new players coming in months or years later and how difficult it's going to be for them with dungeon main quests.

My words aren't the rantings and ravings of some square fanboy/apologist, to whom square can do no wrong. I will tell you that there are aspects of this game that are flat out bad, with no redeeming qualities, and that most of the other aspects are just sub par. The game locking story progression behind a handful of forced parting, all of which you can even just decide to wait for the game to make a party for you instead of forming connections on your own, isn't one of those bad or sup par things. I do notice that most of the people that complain about this, complains about how long that automated system takes, and not that they spent hours in chat talking to people and couldn't get a party though.

I wouldn't call you a fanboy. I wasn't thinking that at all. If I am remembering correctly, near launch you were one of the few people (myself included) that were a bit more critical of this game.

I think the idea behind forced grouping isn't bad. I just think it's bad in practice in this game when people have to wait as long as they do to progress. When I was reading that thread where someone waited over 200 minutes, I really felt for them. When I see in this thread people saying the queue time is making it hard for them to enjoy the game, I really feel for them. You can't really do anything until you get passed those 4 duties in a row.

I used to be one of those people completely against duty/dungeon/raid/whatever finders. But over time as I got to know the type of people who actually play these games, I've changed my opinion. So I don't blame people for using Duty Finder instead of shouting for groups and I don't think it's really indicative of anything that they do.

The fact that you do not miss them is irrelevant, it is an aspect that added to the overall feel of the game, and gave purpose to travel and the world at large. It isn't just the time to "chat" but the scope and depth actual travel time adds to the gameworld. As I said before, this is something that has to be worked into a game from the start, and the world needs to be designed around it so it isn't even relevant to FFXIV, as I don't think anything short of another remake without ps3 could make it's world good in that way.

I love travel time myself. I was really sad that the airships and ferries are just teleports now.

As for needing another remake to add depth to the game world, I think this world has potential. PS2 limitations didn't hold back FFXI from being my absolute favourite (and in my opinion one of the most realised) video game world ever. But at launch that game world was pretty small and felt confined too. So I think FFXIV has potential to become something more over time.

 

[Aeana]

So crystal tower is definitely 2.1 then?

Yes.

 

[Mechakira]

Now, strictly speaking, I don't think there's anything preventing WAR's from doing this as well. They probably just need to be geared, "slightly," better than a PLD would have to be.

The only thing in Coil that might be really rough with two Warriors is the end of Turn 4 with two Dreadnoughts up. PLD invincibility cooldown is really useful there.

 

[diablos991]

The only thing in Coil that might be really rough with two Warriors is the end of Turn 4 with two Dreadnoughts up. PLD invincibility cooldown is really useful there.

The way my group does it, we never have 2 dreadnoughts up. I would imagine a well geared warrior would be workable there. Though the PLD invincibility is still nice for the off-tank.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

Okay, now just to avoid confusion, what's your name in game? Mine's N'uadha Tia, a name I'm certain everyone is sadly familiar with, given how much of a motormouth I am on the FC chat logs. XD.

My character's name is Zhu Systrata.

 

[devious.one]

The only thing in Coil that might be really rough with two Warriors is the end of Turn 4 with two Dreadnoughts up. PLD invincibility cooldown is really useful there.

Next week you and Yenn should switch duties and have you tank the two dreadnaughts, I really think Warriors could.

 

[DragonHunterG]

just wanted to say i've fallen in love with fishing. going to hit 50 tonight.

but i how do i get all my Fisher gear? when i got my botanist up to level 50 i found out i can only choose one piece of armor, which made me wonder where can i get the rest of the gear. if youre level 50 crafter, do you get access to making the gatherer's level 50 gear? i want my guy all decked out. but man the requirements for getting the luminary tool is kinda crazy and i'll be doing ALOT of fishing still

 

[Mashing]

Okay, so, I mentioned this last night, but I'm going to try setting up a semi-static Coil group today, for those of use who haven't managed to progress very far into the place yet.

So, I usually log on sometime between, 8-9PM Mountain Time, which is 7-8pm West Coast time, and 10-11pm East Coast Time.

Anyone whose on around that time, and wants to get Coil done, should let me know. If we can set up a decent group, it should only take an hour or so, two or so nights a week, to get to turn four. That is of course, after a week or two of practice, and slowly accumulating drops.

I'm looking for a static coil group, but it looks like you got WAR tank already.

Hilarious really, it seems there's more tanks at endgame than anything else (just the opposite of what I'd think would be the case). Oh well.

 

[diablos991]

just wanted to say i've fallen in love with fishing. going to hit 50 tonight.

but i how do i get all my Fisher gear? when i got my botanist up to level 50 i found out i can only choose one piece of armor, which made me wonder where can i get the rest of the gear. if youre level 50 crafter, do you get access to making the gatherer's level 50 gear? i want my guy all decked out. but man the requirements for getting the luminary tool is kinda crazy and i'll be doing ALOT of fishing still

You get your rod and one piece of gear at 50.

The rest you need to procure. You'll need to either buy the pieces from the marketboard or get the materials and get a leatherworker & weaver to make them for you.