It's also not like it's a new thing to FFXIV. Pretty much every single MMO in general has had tanks get enough survivability and then shift everything into DPS. The difference here is that base stat levels are high enough that we're already to the point of going full DPS.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| Raiders of the Void Ark
- Thread starter Trojita
- Start date
It's also not like it's a new thing to FFXIV. Pretty much every single MMO in general has had tanks get enough survivability and then shift everything into DPS. The difference here is that base stat levels are high enough that we're already to the point of going full DPS.
Flip cheap things on the market.
Yeah I was doing Levi EX and it was really bad
Haman Karn
Member
Yeah, but you know outside of that minimal RNG, it's a completely scripted fight. You always know when one of those above events is going to happen to look to who has what / etc. Outside of reacting to debuffs or tethers or moving east instead of west, etc, you will basically do the exact same thing every fight. Most MMOs don't have scripted fights like this.
I would like fights where the bosses uses it's move set randomly.
This must be a WoW thing as it's not standard in older RPGs where tank classes often did barely any damage at all. I remember PLD with Terra Staff didn't even auto attack bosses in FFXI.
You keep saying the bolded but I'm getting the sneaking suspicion you don't know a lot about most MMOs.
No, I undervalue the difficulty of tank, period.
Edit: Actually, undervalue insinuates that I'm far off the mark so poor choice of word.
Pellegri Testament
Member
You haven't actually looked into most "newer" (last 10 years ish) mmos have you? Because the vast majority of them are completely scripted fights with varying degrees of rng. Even before WoW and all it's competitors came out, quite a few mmos were just as scripted as this one, you just couldn't tell as easily because there were no addons at the time that would call everything off.
This doesn't really work as well as you seem to think it would in mmos. Making it so bosses use their moveset randomly would mean taking all their moves off of the cooldowns and timers in place, doing so would create unwinnable attempts where the boss does nothing but spam their ultimate attacks. If you actually expect people to give a shit when it comes to fighting something, you cannot be telling people "hey, sometimes you have literally no chance of winning no matter how well you play".
Ley Lines > Blizzard 3 > Thunder > Sharp Cast > Fire 3 > Enochian > Fire > Raging Strikes > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire IV > Firestarter > Convert > Swiftcast > Fire IV > Fire IV (or whatever new rotation opener you have)
Oh my, that is SO difficult. Teach me master how to push all those complex buttons while I sit still and just react to minor movements like moving to the left and right for protean wave and moving back then front for sluice. Sooo hard.
Oh wait, I have to ensure I move back to my ley lines. Oh noooo. How do I do that master?! I have no idea how to stand in beneficial aoes! You must teach me how to play your complex game as I'm just used to my dumb tank game where I just stand still and fiddle with my thumbs.
I'm trying my hand at Asami sarcasm, how was it?
TastyOreoFriend
Member
Nope, this happened in FFXI as well. Blood tanking-and the terra staff nonsense (which itself was abandoned when they fixed shield procs) was abandoned eventually for NIN Blink tanking which was much more effective and did more damage. That eventually led into RDM/NIN and DRK/NIN tanking with Apocalypse relic scythe, which was eventually nerfed with the Sleep II enmity nerf, DRK/NIN could still do it though with Apoc.
Eventually that gave way to straight up damage dealer tanking in the Abyssea era with the level cap raised slowly every 5 lvls to 99 and the addition of atma boosts. Since people found out that they could hold far more hate and take relatively the same amount of damage as a tank with -PDT% gear swaps for big attacks traditional tanking fell off a little. WAR, MNK, DNC, NIN, BLU, THF could dominate the tanking scene with various set-ups though PLD could compete with an Ochain empryean shield.
Most tanks in 11 now gear for DPS and doing damage, and wearing full time -PDT% is seen as bad practice though there are hybrid setups-back in the day there was too.
The idea of tanks focusing on damage has long been in SE MMOs.
I quit after the level 75 cap was lifted.
I had both NIN and PLD, but which tank you took was dependent and I would alternate depending on encounter. NIN/DRK was nice for a while due to hate generation (but this was rarely about damage but spamming magic spells) but it wouldn't work on some mobs where you would need to be able to blood tank some of it due to too many aoe spells, so had to go PLD/NIN or even PLD/WAR on some.
It was nice to have to mix up the tank strats based on mob.
But it sounds like that was changed with Abyssea which I never did.
I had both NIN and PLD, but which tank you took was dependent and I would alternate depending on encounter. NIN/DRK was nice for a while due to hate generation (but this was rarely about damage but spamming magic spells) but it wouldn't work on some mobs where you would need to be able to blood tank some of it due to too many aoe spells, so had to go PLD/NIN or even PLD/WAR on some.
It was nice to have to mix up the tank strats based on mob.
But it sounds like that was changed with Abyssea which I never did.
Maybe it'd make more sense if you just replace "most MMOs" with "FFXI" whenever Tabris says something regarding them.
TastyOreoFriend
Member
It was basically a paradigm shift. People realized that DPS could get to the hate limit and stay there faster than a tank (namely PLD) could and provide an enormous damage boost in the process. It was easier and faster overall to let Classes like WAR or MNK generate lots of hate and keep it, and then everyone just spams spells and abilities without mercy-stunning, CC when necessary.
You couple that with all the Enmity shedding abilities that a lot classes like BLM got, or the enmity sharing ability that Ranger got and all bets are off on meat wall tanking. Eventually PLDs joined in once they got Ochain, which had a block rate of nearly 95% if I recall correctly. That shield led to PLDs basically regearing themselves the same way as DPS would so they could try to hold hate better and do more damage. More damage meant shorter fights so it was a net benefit all around.
SE basically began to encourage the behavior and people ran with it (they even publicly accepted NIN as a tank job and gave it enmity generating abilities). A lot of that same philosophy can be seen in XIV 2.0 believe it or not.
We have different memories of EQ, DAoC, XI, etc. days where almost all fights were scripted to some extent. Though it's also more of a JP design thing I think to do the full-on scripted fights but this has been the case for a very long time. Very rarely you have the full-on "it just does whatever it wants" styles of fights.
It's always been been the progression mindset in general, even back in EQ days. We geared to survive and tried to push as much damage output as we possibly could. It mattered a bit less since you could just add bodies on top as you wanted but finding more damage is always a thing. Your only goal was to have enough eHP to survive whatever incoming DPS is.
Considering how hard it is to find DPS that are remotely close to good, I'm not sure you understand how difficult optimizing DPS is.
Ley Lines > Blizzard 3 > Thunder > Sharp Cast > Fire 3 > Enochian > Fire > Raging Strikes > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire IV > Firestarter > Convert > Swiftcast > Fire IV > Fire IV (or whatever new rotation opener you have)
Oh my, that is SO difficult. Teach me master how to push all those complex buttons while I sit still and just react to minor movements like moving to the left and right for protean wave and moving back then front for sluice. Sooo hard.
Oh wait, I have to ensure I move back to my ley lines. Oh noooo. How do I do that master?! I have no idea how to stand in beneficial aoes! You must teach me how to play your complex game as I'm just used to my dumb tank game where I just stand still and fiddle with my thumbs.
I'm trying my hand at Asami sarcasm, how was it?
Needs less master and more backhanded comments or calling me trash. You're getting there though.
Eh. Tank difficulty is fairly low. The mechanics they're expected to execute aren't really that hard or all that involved. On top of that, because of mechanics they're expected to do, their actual button-pushing duties are pretty laid back so they can focus on the fight rather than raw execution. This is why there's primarily passive mitigation vs active ones.
The importance of them doing their thing is fairly high but their skill floor is fairly low.
By the way, I was checking FFLogs comparing our A1S clears to others since I can't compare A3S since it won't let us compare to similar wipes and only clears.
And all the top 50 BLM's have a different opening rotation from yours.
Have you thought about doing this intro?
Quelling > Fire > Sharpcast > Enochain > Fire 3 > Ley Lines > Fire IV > Fire > X-Potion of Int > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire III > Convert > Fire IV > Fire IV > Blizzard III > Blizzard IV > Thunder.
I may have missed some things. I don't see Raging Strikes used until 30 seconds in. You can check it out here:
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...e=47,Ewylanne+Farell&type=summary&view=events
This FFLogs compare is pretty awesome.
My button-pushing duties are just as involved as Asami's though. I would agree when it's a job like Summoner or Ninja, but not Black Mage.
And I deal with more mechanics in A3S (I agree some fights are designed with less mechanics for tanks).
I personally don't think the skill floor is that high for half the jobs, it's not a tank vs DPS situation.
Tanking is easy, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
The difficulty comes in the execution of simple mechanics while trying not to hamstring yourself depending on the job making up for lackluster DPS. Whatever risky shit you pull to drop a couple more points of DPS often ends up being your downfall from what I've seen. Not even sure why I have Shield Oath anymore.
The difficulty comes in the execution of simple mechanics while trying not to hamstring yourself depending on the job making up for lackluster DPS. Whatever risky shit you pull to drop a couple more points of DPS often ends up being your downfall from what I've seen. Not even sure why I have Shield Oath anymore.
I'm assuming the two bolded should be switched? And yeah, that's really the same rotation, it's still getting out the 6 fire IVs during opener. Opening with blizzard 3 is a timing decision which I should probably stop doing in A3S because I can't cast while you are pulling but anytime I get a countdown and can pre-cast, blizzard 3 all the way.
You don't lose your entire rotation for 30ish seconds anytime you screw up timing though. I would stop pretending BLM is like it was in 2.x.
It's quite different from yours though going through that compare and he has a 450 DPS difference from you. He does have battle litany but that won't offset that much DPS. So something to consider. This FFLogs is really illuminating, I have a couple things I'm changing based on comparing with PLDs parsing higher then me as MT.
Never thought about the people who dropped cash on that mount. What do you even do with it these days?
Oh, you didn't even do his rotation right, no wonder that made no sense. He is doing the swiftcast before the first fire, not after. Yeah, maybe I can try.
The 450 dps difference is because they are killing it before the jump, that's a whole group thing, I'm forced into the fight for an extra minute and a half dealing with the boss being gone and doing add, of course there is a gigantic overall difference
Here's a compare with that jump included.
350 DPS difference. His fight actually goes on longer:
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...JZP#fight=5,3&source=47,Great+Gai&view=events
Battle Litany probably makes a pretty big difference though as both these parses had a DRG. Does MCH or BRD add more BLM damage?
250 dps right? Or am I reading this wrong?
And yes, battle litany and trick attack are always going to be a big difference for BLM. The fact that we do fewer, hard hitting moves in the same amount of time as faster dps means that % increased of any kind are just overall worth a lot for us. I would not be surprised if battle litany put me in the neighborhood. Like I said though, this rotation makes sense, I'll probably try it.
I have no idea on bard vs. mch
Yeah, 250 DPS, sorry. 1228 to 975.
The only fight in which a MCH will boost BLM DPS at all in Savage is A2S, and it'll still be tiny compared to bard. 1,3,4 will be the 5% physical vuln boost for ~22 seconds every 2 minutes. 2 will be 5% magical vuln boost for ~22 seconds every 2 minutes. Foe Req is... a lot better for casters.
don't tell my group. the casters will gang up on me.
Can you do the same for me? I have no idea how to navigate this site. Comparing against top monks would be interesting. Wanna see if I can do anything differently.
It's also worth noting the gear discrepency of full i210 (sans weapons) there.
Bard is better for casters and, as far as I can tell, the MCH there didn't use Bishop Hypercharge at all so it's Foe's vs nothing.
this is why I Fell Cleave things now
Bard is better for casters and, as far as I can tell, the MCH there didn't use Bishop Hypercharge at all so it's Foe's vs nothing.
this is why I Fell Cleave things now
In the same conditions as Asami - people who have finished fight within 30 seconds of us (so with that last jump) in the current lockout (last 5 days), you are basically top MNK if you consider we have neither trick attack or battle litany.
Otherwise, without that consideration, it's 1145 (you) to 1219 (other player):
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/compa...vMpzQNfmj1a#fight=5,4&source=20,Lyfon Yharnam
This player had a Ninja for trick attack though. That would make up that difference I think.
EDIT - Here's us compared to the best group on Ultros on A1S (they have DRG and AST benefits):
http://www.fflogs.com/reports/compare/ncG7vH8t96jqgLhP/KyBx4YqTHQFanb2d#fight=3,5
I've noticed that some of my Stone IIIs have a tendency to miss my targets. Well, at boss fights (Ravana on Extreme and the one at the end of Neverreap, in particular). Everything seems okay with random mobs. I mean it's not a huge issue, but something I've noticed.
I assume that the accuracy stat fixes this, but the eso gear doesn't really have much variety? Am I wrong in buying the healing/white mage items only?
I assume that the accuracy stat fixes this, but the eso gear doesn't really have much variety? Am I wrong in buying the healing/white mage items only?
They took accuracy out of healer gear in Heavensward so there's not much you can do outside of melded gear which you would only really consider when doing early/fast raid progression.
Making sure to hit the rear or getting BRD's Rain of Arrows applied can alleviate misses but you'll still most likely miss a bunch.
yaffi
Member
Hats!
Bloodborne the Patch
English Dungeon Preview
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/6b16c65c40e9cdcab3109522c7b3de976c082cb8
i170 to enter.
English Dungeon Preview
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/6b16c65c40e9cdcab3109522c7b3de976c082cb8
i170 to enter.
Go back to bed or go make new OT
Waukeon (The snake buddy of the twister boss in Neverreap) has an evasion up mechanic, you shouldn't normally miss in EXDR. Spells have no positional acc mods by the by and a Stone to the face is the same as a Stone up the butt.
Also lol @ 170 guess EXDR is gonna be 2 dungs after all. But on the other hand, hats!
Also lol @ 170 guess EXDR is gonna be 2 dungs after all. But on the other hand, hats!
Unknown Soldier
Member
All right fine, I'll take post #20,000
Let's see if we reach post #20,000 in OT2 before patch 3.1 comes out
Let's see if we reach post #20,000 in OT2 before patch 3.1 comes out