LordKasual
Banned
I believe they said 50. Since the new cap is 70
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT2| RIP Bowmage 2015-2017.
- Thread starter Ken
- Start date
- Status
I believe they said 50. Since the new cap is 70
LowParry
Member
Whew, that grind from 50 - 60 in POTD will be interesting.
AST's problem is because of the way XIV is and not really allowing for any support class, it has to be able to heal on par with the others or else it just... can't come because it's effectively inferior to bring even with the utility the class bringsextra damage Balance brings. (Which is exactly what happened before they got the buffs in 3.4) The fact 4 out of 6 of its cards are unreliable (bole) or useless in most cases/content (spear, arrow, spire) and are more often used as royal road fodder is pretty ridiculous.
Arrow's only useful for when you have a BLM, as it's essentially a Balance exclusively for them since they can't run out of MP so they aren't affected by the downside of doing things faster while all it does for melee is make them run out of TP faster.
Spire's effectively useless since in most fights there's enough downtime to pace out Invigorate use to avoid running outunless it's something like A9S where uptime is 100% and people need to AOE. (And MCH/BRD more reliably do it plus are AOE by default)
And I probably don't even need to explain why Spear is useless. The odds of coordinating with someone to reduce their CDs before they pop them in the middle of a fight where both of you need to focus on things other than cooldown timers on your buttons are extremely low.
Maybe the Lord/Lady cards will fix things in regards to the AST toolkit, but when they're rebalancing the healer classes they probably need to make WHM provide some utility that AST or SCH can't account for. It is the god tier AOE healer with Medica and Medica II, plus Cure III, but if that stuff isn't actually needed what place does a WHM have in the current state of the game? WHM is now the pre 3.4 AST. They can't make it required, but AST have the WHM toolkit and only suffer from the fact that their aoe heals don't reach as far, so there's almost no point running AST/WHM for most groups when Scholar offers the better shields plus a ridiculously good healing kit. Indomitability and Emergency Tactics are too good, not to mention the pet abilities themselves.
Arrow's only useful for when you have a BLM, as it's essentially a Balance exclusively for them since they can't run out of MP so they aren't affected by the downside of doing things faster while all it does for melee is make them run out of TP faster.
Spire's effectively useless since in most fights there's enough downtime to pace out Invigorate use to avoid running outunless it's something like A9S where uptime is 100% and people need to AOE. (And MCH/BRD more reliably do it plus are AOE by default)
And I probably don't even need to explain why Spear is useless. The odds of coordinating with someone to reduce their CDs before they pop them in the middle of a fight where both of you need to focus on things other than cooldown timers on your buttons are extremely low.
Maybe the Lord/Lady cards will fix things in regards to the AST toolkit, but when they're rebalancing the healer classes they probably need to make WHM provide some utility that AST or SCH can't account for. It is the god tier AOE healer with Medica and Medica II, plus Cure III, but if that stuff isn't actually needed what place does a WHM have in the current state of the game? WHM is now the pre 3.4 AST. They can't make it required, but AST have the WHM toolkit and only suffer from the fact that their aoe heals don't reach as far, so there's almost no point running AST/WHM for most groups when Scholar offers the better shields plus a ridiculously good healing kit. Indomitability and Emergency Tactics are too good, not to mention the pet abilities themselves.
Parties of nothing but SAM and RDM!
LordKasual
Banned
Lets hope the "combat changes" also include mechanic changes for AST.
And a way to refresh Enochian that isn't goddamn annoying
And a way to refresh Enochian that isn't goddamn annoying
Just got back from a bit of an internet break and ran the benchmark. Game looks fantastic.
I did start speculating afterwards.
As a PLD main, the cast-time on the new skill is worrying (I'm assuming it's Banish, or some kind of Holy Rebuke).
I really hope they consider traiting Clemency and this new skill to have a chance to be instant after a block. The 1.5 sec cast time was a step in the right direction for sure (I was able to land my heals much more consistently) but I still find it worrying that they are out of touch on what exactly PLD needs for its toolkit. Especially after observing that WAR is getting a charge (the final piece of their kit in my opinion) and DRK is getting a Cover/Apocatastasis clone, which gives it some meaningful utility, especially if it can be used on another tank.
I did start speculating afterwards.
As a PLD main, the cast-time on the new skill is worrying (I'm assuming it's Banish, or some kind of Holy Rebuke).
I really hope they consider traiting Clemency and this new skill to have a chance to be instant after a block. The 1.5 sec cast time was a step in the right direction for sure (I was able to land my heals much more consistently) but I still find it worrying that they are out of touch on what exactly PLD needs for its toolkit. Especially after observing that WAR is getting a charge (the final piece of their kit in my opinion) and DRK is getting a Cover/Apocatastasis clone, which gives it some meaningful utility, especially if it can be used on another tank.
It might be dangerous but the Spear should honestly be retroactive, that is, instead of being a "skills cast during The Spear have reduced cooldowns" it should be "skills cooldown 20% faster or whatever during The Spear".
Even then its benefit will be really nebulous until people run the numbers on how many extra Battle Hymns and Trick Attacks this is generating over the course of a 8 minute fight. Hell, it might even beat out Balance given a coordinated group.
I think Spire and Ewer should be folded into one card (Ewer, I suppose), and then Spear made into some other kind of utility?
Even then its benefit will be really nebulous until people run the numbers on how many extra Battle Hymns and Trick Attacks this is generating over the course of a 8 minute fight. Hell, it might even beat out Balance given a coordinated group.
I think Spire and Ewer should be folded into one card (Ewer, I suppose), and then Spear made into some other kind of utility?
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I'm already warming up to WAR more. Should make the transition from PLD to WAR easier in SB if I just play WAR without touching PLD at all.
Next live letter is definitely going to be the most important one.
They are switching to an ammo system for Bard so you will have to purchase ammo at vendors in order to use any attacks.
Also the charge time on skills has been increased to 2 seconds and you gain an increasing damage debuff for moving that caps at -70% damage done.
These changes will separate the good Bards from the great Bards.
Next live letter is definitely going to be the most important one.
They are switching to an ammo system for Bard so you will have to purchase ammo at vendors in order to use any attacks.
Also the charge time on skills has been increased to 2 seconds and you gain an increasing damage debuff for moving that caps at -70% damage done.
These changes will separate the good Bards from the great Bards.
J_ToSaveTheDay
Member
Switched back to my usual network settings and grabbing Heavensward now, which is going very fast (0.40MB/s on OP's DNS v 5.5MB/s on Google's).
See ya online soon, FFXIV-GAF!... I'll be a tiny little lv1 starting completely fresh.
See ya online soon, FFXIV-GAF!... I'll be a tiny little lv1 starting completely fresh.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
Yes! Buying the PC version after having the PS4 version or vice versa will add 30days to your subscription.
Stone Ocean
Member
I think it's not supposed to be a passive, but once you activate it, it doesn't fall off completely. You'll still have a timer that you can refresh manually for a bonud, but you won't get locked out of F4 if you make a mistake anymore.
In the benchmark video, the new BRD skill didn't seem to have a casting animation. I can only dream that Minuet is fucking dead, lying in a ditch on top of its own blood.
Great thank you! I'm glad my purchase of the PS4 version won't go to waste, lol.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
Let's not fool ourselves here speaking as someone who has been using Bard as his main Job since he started playing the game I can almost say that in terms of "balance" changes I don't see the Bard getting much of it because I feel that the Bard is in a pretty nice position right now.
They could change/remove some unused/useless Actions but in terms of actual % adjustments I would be fine if things stay the way they are.
Shadowbind-This Action has to either be removed from the game or make it a PVP only action because it currently has little to no use in any other content and even if they changed it so that the target stays stuck in place for a defined amount on time even if the target gets hit I still don't see much use for it.
Swiftsong-Sure I can move as fast as a Ninja when not in combat but other than that it's useless.
Wide Volley- Do we really need a 3rd AoE Action that cost 30 more TP to do the exact same damage as Quick Nock? I don't think so.
As for Wanderer's Minuet I don't think it's going away so if you haven't hot used to by now or don't like it than don't bother playing with a Bard.
SB is going to be incredibly interesting to see how they handle balancing ranged damage.
BRD and MCH still have lower weapon damage than the other DPS, but the balance arms race that started in 3.2 has ultimately positioned both as strong in actual DPS terms and if they remove the Disembowel reliance in SB we're either looking at large damage adjustments for both jobs or the official end of penalizing support DPS for the support part of the job.
I'm hoping it's the latter, largely because actually providing the support regen is a definite damage hit so they don't need to go back to penalizing base damage and then double penalty when functioning as support. NIN has a bunch of utility with no damage penalty, so hopefully the go forward is just giving all DPS access to support functions instead of trying to keep physical ranged as second tier damage.
WV is the only AOE GCD that can be used from a decent distance. Quick Nick is always going to be preferable if you can get up close and personal, but if they remove WV Bards trying to AOE without being right up on the mobs are going to be stuck waiting around for BL resets. They could adjust potency to make it closer to Spread Shot vs Grenado, and encounter design will play some role in How much use WV sees, but Wide Volley does still serve an extremely specific function.
They still desperately need to rework it. Barrage EA is an incredibly satisfying set of numbers to toss up, but the actual execution of the double oGCD with a cast time continues to feel bad. The use of Feint to prevent GCD clipping is a pretty solid indicator the class design has issues, and if Bards lose Feint when crossclassingn goes away without gaining a reliable instant GCD, the job is going to feel worse to play. . While a lot of Minuet does end up feeling better if you stack SS, they never really got Minuet Bard to feel natural. The oGCD logjams and EA having a cast time constantly disrupts the flow of actual gameplay. If they intend to keep Minuet they need to polish the hell out of the skillset so things flow together because the HW implementation has never escaped feeling hacked together in spots.
Bard now is better off than it was in 3.0, to the point that I will actually voluntarily play it after refusing to touch it for most of Gordias, but it has basic issues stemming from the poor implementation of WM that need to be addressed.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
Character screenshot time.
Chest is the Berserker armor in case anyone was wondering.
Post a screenshot once you're settled.
Chest is the Berserker armor in case anyone was wondering.
Post a screenshot once you're settled.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
1-They could remove the penalty for using songs but what would be the counter balance? Increase the MP cost? Lower the potency? Put a cool down in it? I don't know which one I would choose.
2-I still think that having a 3rd AoE Action is too redundant so a better compromise here would be to either increase Potency or decree TP cost and remove Quick Knock but speaking from experience I don't think there has been a situation where I couldn't use Quick Knock iver Wide Volley because every time a tank grabs enough Enemies to justify the use of Quick Knock it's possible for me to move into the appropriate position/range.
3-As for Wanderer's Minuet the only thing I can say is that the Bard does feel better to use when I'm not using Wanderer's Minuet but I don't see a scenario where Square-Enix​ removed it do it's just easier for me to accept that it's here to stay even if it makes the Bard a little clunky to use at times.
Stone Ocean
Member
The weird implementation is the whole crux of the issue. WM is clearly something that was shoehorned in with little regard to how 2.0 abilities worked just because MCH would also have Gauss. It's wonky, it only exists for two abilities and it makes BRD feel like shit to play. BRD needed way, way more work than a small rework to Barrage and RoD to warrant this piece of shit. Want to keep WM in 4.0? Fine, then fucking go back and rework old BRD stuff to actually work around it.
Also I'm pretty sure BRD was confirmed to be getting big changes in 4.0 in some interview.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
I still think that the only reason they shoehorned in Wanderer's Minuet was because Machinist got Gauss Barrel and they didn't think it was fair that one Job could move and shoot at the same time while the other one couldn't. It would be much more easier to simply remove Wanderer's Minuet instead of drastically changing the Bard to make Wanderer's Minuet feel more natural but like I said before I just can't see Square-Enix​ willingly removing Wanderer's Minuet.
That's not what I'm talking about. For the most part, it was assumed in ARR that Bard would be lower-end damage even when not singing at all. It was to keep Bard from being too OP. It's why ranged weapon damage was lower--even with 0% songs, Bards were supposed to be second-string damage dealers. After the MCH buffs and BRD counter-buffs, BRD and MCH are incredibly strong damage now and there's a chunk of the playerbase that is expecting them to get knocked back down to second-string damage in SB even without songs. That would suck, especially given that Creator style raid design means song use is super minimal. I'd prefer being a solid DPS and docked for singing, but am concerned about an expectation that we go back to lesser DPS at best and worse if we sing/promote.
Bard only has two real AOE GCDs, though. That's not overkill at all--Rain of Death isn't spammable. A potency tweak to bring it WV in line with Grenado wouldn't be a bad idea, but again encounter design will matter. In dungeons they could give us all three buttons and it would be fine because nothing matters, but there's a flexibility to WV that I don't see it benefitting bard to lose. Make the skill better, sure, but dont eliminate it.
The existence of cast times isn't an inherent evil--I ditched Bard for Machinist, and Minuet is basically half-assed Gauss Barrel. It's the half-assed that's the problem. There are ways to implement cast times that work and can be rewarding. The MCH opener is built around knowing when you can double oGCD and when you can't, using ammo, etc. it works because it was all designed to work together. Minuet has never felt like it had half the time or effort invested; they can either take Minuet out back and put it down, or they can invest actual time and effort into reworking the bard kit so Minuet works with it instead of against it.
If they do nothing to actually address the flow of bard, it's going to be an incredible failure on their part. We've been stuck with a bad Minuet interpetation for two years because they don't want to make major changes mid-expansion, so SB launch is going to be their one shot in two years to take a serious stab at making Bard feel like a job they planned out instead of Ctrl-C+Ctrl-V'ing Gauss Barrel onto it because they couldn't figure out how to balance it with MCH.
Wouldn't doubt this for a second.
Stone Ocean
Member
If BRD doesn't get any meaningful changes I'm not even gonna bother getting it to 70
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
1-Just were did this assumption come from? Because from the outset I remember the Bard was the go to pick for the Binding Coil of Bahamut and it wasn't until 2.1 when the Bard got slapped with nerfs that it stopped being so great until the buffs it got in 3.0 but you're right I rather not see that scenario you described come into reality.
2-I think it's better to actually think this is exactly what's going to happen so that way we won't get our hopes up for nothing.
It came from exactly what you described there. The general argument at the time was if you could take a Bard and they'd do as much damage as any other DPS without singing, it gives them an unfair advantage. If a Bard was competitive with a Monk, you suddenly have a reason to consider stacking Bards because with no songs your damage is competitive and you suddenly have access to twice as much regen if you end up needing it. So you handicap Bard damage; they still get brought for regen, but post-nerf you're no longer incentivized to stack.
What happened after 3.2 almost seems unintentional--MCH was fine to play but inferior rDPS, so they got buffed for Midas. This + Midas encounter design wound up making MCH OP as hell, at which point everyone bandwagon hopped, Bard got counter-buffed, and then Creator came up with an incredibly strong argument for doubling up on physical ranged.
I don't want to see it nerfed and penalized, but physical ranged being unfairly dominant right now isn't an uncommon complaint.
It's an expansion focused heavily on changes to the combat system, where they've specifically said they intend to address Bard, and Minuet is I think at this point by far the most unpopular HW job change and has been a consistent point of complaint since a few hours into Early Access. My expectations for the dev team are relatively minimal, but addressing a wildly unpopular piece of bad design in a combat revamp expansion when you've explicitly said you're going to address Bard is just about the lowest my expectations can go. It's going to be impossible for them to not at least try something.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Welp, the software token app broke once again, and now is asking me for the registration process. And I lost the emergency password, I mean I think I wrote it down like 2 years ago...
I don't understand how any 2-step verication software I use have yet to give me a problem, and this garbage app, broke on me like 3 times since I started using it.
/rant
My comeback will have to wait one more day.
I don't understand how any 2-step verication software I use have yet to give me a problem, and this garbage app, broke on me like 3 times since I started using it.
/rant
My comeback will have to wait one more day.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Bard Anima complete!
I hope when the Stormblood relic comes out, if we get to skip stage 1 by turning in anime, we get a hilarious cut scene of the Anima being furious you're giving it away.
I hope when the Stormblood relic comes out, if we get to skip stage 1 by turning in anime, we get a hilarious cut scene of the Anima being furious you're giving it away.
I was a Bard main prior to 2.4 where I made the switch to Warrior for my static. Was seriously considering switching back in 3.0 but the execution of Wanderer's Minuet kept me away, and I decided to stick with tanking.
I'm also in the party of hoping that they seriously take a look at the execution of Minuet in Stormblood.
I was one of the people that didn't mind being a second-string dps as long as I felt like I was contributing, and the combination of damage and songs helped me feel that like that back in the coil days. I was never playing with people that were heavily optimized that singing wasn't required, and if it wasn't, Foe Requiem was a nice reward. When Heavensward was announced I was desperately hoping for a new song that would buff melee dps. Instead Bard got no new support abilities (Warden's Paean does exist, I'm just baffled at how situational it was until 3.4) and was given a lot more damage tools, something I didn't really like. I've totally accepted it as the norm now, but if Stormblood made Bard's support abilities more interesting it would become much more attractive in my eyes.
I think Machinist could benefit from a bit more "support-love" too. Since the fights have had drastically less need for resource regeneration mid-combat, Machinist has the more interesting support abilities in its toolkit (Hypercharge, Disassemble/Rend Mind) and I think that can totally be pushed further. Would love for Bard to share a bit of that.
Awhile back I wrote up a google doc on what my ideal for a 4.0 Bard would be. Was pure fantasy, but the idea I really enjoyed was having an aura that Bard could use that, for each five seconds or so the party was under the effect of a song, they would receive a stacking determination buff. Singing used to be Bard's thing and I want to see more emphasis on it.
I'm also in the party of hoping that they seriously take a look at the execution of Minuet in Stormblood.
I was one of the people that didn't mind being a second-string dps as long as I felt like I was contributing, and the combination of damage and songs helped me feel that like that back in the coil days. I was never playing with people that were heavily optimized that singing wasn't required, and if it wasn't, Foe Requiem was a nice reward. When Heavensward was announced I was desperately hoping for a new song that would buff melee dps. Instead Bard got no new support abilities (Warden's Paean does exist, I'm just baffled at how situational it was until 3.4) and was given a lot more damage tools, something I didn't really like. I've totally accepted it as the norm now, but if Stormblood made Bard's support abilities more interesting it would become much more attractive in my eyes.
I think Machinist could benefit from a bit more "support-love" too. Since the fights have had drastically less need for resource regeneration mid-combat, Machinist has the more interesting support abilities in its toolkit (Hypercharge, Disassemble/Rend Mind) and I think that can totally be pushed further. Would love for Bard to share a bit of that.
Awhile back I wrote up a google doc on what my ideal for a 4.0 Bard would be. Was pure fantasy, but the idea I really enjoyed was having an aura that Bard could use that, for each five seconds or so the party was under the effect of a song, they would receive a stacking determination buff. Singing used to be Bard's thing and I want to see more emphasis on it.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I hate the look of the BRD anime to be honest. I love the glow effect, but the base weapon is just so ugly....
I'm going to glam it to Yoichi Bow, but debating if I am going to use the relic glow or not...
I feel pangs of panic at the thought of the day that my old FFXI security keyfob thing loses battery power.
I probably should look into making sure I have the right emergency password.
All the final step bases look blocky and ugly, I wonder if it isn't on purpose to contrast the particles.
If only you could glam particle effects. How many doors would that open for glams?
45When do I start getting good SCH gear? I'm level 44 and I'm sick of this Aetherial Linen Cowl I've been wearing forever
What The Fox
Neo Member
Do we know when we'll be finding out about the new actions/job changes/balancing? It appears my static is getting back together for 4.0, and what they add could affect which healer I want to roll as (whm or ast). Super interested in how they decide to change things up for SB.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
May 20th.
No, Steam/PC/PS4 trial accounts are all separate, but getting back up to where you are in the trial won't take very long, and you can buy the game now but wait to apply the CD key to your trial account as well. Steam version will probably go on sale sometime before launch but who knows when that'll be.
May 20th live letter.
I wish this was how Spear would work, and I don't necessarily think it would be dangerous if AST cards continue to not stack, but this particular idea might be a coding issue (that they could hopefully work on with no PS3 anymore?).
Since SCH has Selene and AST has what they do, I don't think giving WHM some kind of AoE status boost that only they bring would be bad. Not something as essential as Shell or as OP as Balance (which is likely not going to stay as-is come SB launch anyway), but I have been wondering for a while now if that shiny light spell WHM did in the benchmark might have been some kind of utility buff instead of a traditional heal (since why give them yet another AoE heal?)
Ewer restoring a small amount of HP and TP at the same time would be pretty cool too, might even be on par with Arrow/BLM for MCH and BRD when songs and turret buff is out..Maybe since Spire is related to TP now, would a TP cost reduction card be good? Or maybe bad? Or redundant?
I'm trying to think of ways were *insert card here* would be better than Balance at least some of the time, like Arrow now. It's ok if Balance is generally great as long as it's not always the best in every scenario (and fuck you if you don't draw it). But it's pretty hard to muse when the new skills are so close and we don't know what they do.
Doesn't go on sale in steam very often. Purchasing the steam version will also lock you into having to purchase expansions from steam and since the game rarely goes on sale there you'll most likely have to pay full price and won't get launch discounts (BB GCU, Amazon Prime, GMG, etc...) on new expansions.
AFAIK, you can't mix trial characters you have to purchase what you played on to continue. So steam trial -> steam full, PS4 trial -> PS4 full, etc...
I like how that post was made well after Bards lost the ability to auto-attack.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=178413524&postcount=17463
tomo was waiting for that P5 to drop lol.
tomo was waiting for that P5 to drop lol.
What The Fox
Neo Member
Dr_Boris_Goltz
Banned
I got a code from Amazon for this game and I'm not sure what it is.
Quote my post to see it and it's yours!
Quote my post to see it and it's yours!
- Status