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Final Fantasy XIV |OT4| Welcome, PS4 users!

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Feels so good to be able to make my own stuff for once. It certainly makes crafting a bit easier with the right jobs leveled to 50 first. Also felt good to help someone by making their precursor relic and not having to worry at all about the cost.

Now to just power level WVR and LTW to 50 and wait for my leves to regen before I knock out GSM.
 

Aeana

Member
Sadly, we didn't quite make it to a turn 9 win before our off-tank is off for vacation. Hopefully we can get it once he gets back in a month or so. I wonder if 2.3 will be in by then. :eek:
 

Ken

Member
Sadly, we didn't quite make it to a turn 9 win before our off-tank is off for vacation. Hopefully we can get it once he gets back in a month or so. I wonder if 2.3 will be in by then. :eek:

if only you guys had k'tai to lead the way
 

dramatis

Member
Antidotes are very useful, actually. Status restoration items are on a different cooldown timer than potions, so using an antidote doesn't preclude using an X-potion if the situation calls for it. The only reason you wouldn't want to use an antidote thanks to the cooldown timer is if you wanted to use something like a Spine Drop instead. My healer appreciates it when I use antidotes too, since every cast of Esuna uses up a turn of the global cooldown that could be spent on something else. Not a big deal if I'm the only guy being poisoned during a fight against weak foes, but definitely a big deal if everyone in the party just got poisoned during a hectic boss-fight. If the goal is to "not cause trouble for the rest of the party", then antidotes are a very useful thing.
Antidotes are not useful. The gargoyle fight in beta needed antidotes, sure, but they weren't that useful anyway because the item cooldown is not nearly as short as the time it took for the gargoyle to cast poison on you again. Antidotes see little use from 1-50, and a healer is much better than antidotes. There's not much use for them at all.

Why do you think alchemists were the crafting class to be laughed at back at launch? Because potions were quite useless then, and even now only the high level potions are useful—for endgame raids, not for low level play.

The gargoyle is not an example of how the developers used game content to instruct players in how to play the game better. If it had been, what would the gargoyle have been teaching? How to use items that take too long to cooldown to be useful? I beat it in beta through Cure only, because when I used antidotes the item cooldown was not short enough to mitigate the next poison anyway.

There are guildhests, dungeons, class quests, job quests, and various story instances that teach you how to play your class. The problem here isn't that there's no game content to teach people how to play better. What crazygambit is asking for is game content that will teach one guy before dungeons happen how all the other classes play...and to keep teaching them before dungeons as you level up, given that classes get new abilities as they level.

But it's already available! This game content is known as dungeons.

Knowing stuff like "who has sleep magic", "what breaks sleep", "can this class use AoE attacks", and so on is very useful knowledge even at level 15. Leveling dungeons like Qarn, Cutter's Cry, Stone Vigil, and Aurum Vale are not easy dungeons. They only seem easy for people who are surrounded by a player-base that has done them hundreds of times. When I was first leveling up back in the first couple months of the game, we wiped a ton of times on those early game dungeons. Back before the Duty Roulette was implemented, most of the people were newbies challenging the dungeons at the minimum entry level, and were not propped up by experienced players coming in at the level synced maximum.
Useful, but you don't need to know. When I played thaumaturge in a dungeon, I tell the party straight up that I am sleeping extra mobs. If they continued to punch slept mobs, then it became their responsibility and not mine. When I played scholar, in Cutters and Brayflox I would tell the party ahead of time that I don't have a cure for ailments, and to please try and avoid getting statuses.

The responsibility for smooth progression through a dungeon does not lie solely on one player. The exacting knowledge of what other classes do is not necessary for all dungeons from 1-50. Is it useful? Yes. Is it necessary? No.

In short, additional game content to teach single classes about other classes is not essential to completion of the game. Ultimately a player doesn't understand fully how the other classes play without playing those classes anyway.

I wiped a ton to Cutter's Cry and Aurum Vale too. But I didn't need to know the exact abilities of the tanks or dps to beat these dungeons. Would the knowledge of how other classes played been useful? Probably, but for dungeons, understanding the mechanics of bosses and handling pulls in moderation play a much more important role in completion than knowing what other classes do.

Anyways, I think your arguments are all over the place. You argue that players don't need to know the capabilities of their fellow party members, but then claim that there are insufficient tutorials for the game. You also claim that certain knowledge is "obvious", and presume that everyone in the endgame looks up stuff online (which isn't true). What exactly are you arguing for? You seem to be defending people's lack of knowledge by saying that it doesn't matter, then immediately lambasting the game for not teaching players better. Which is it?
You're not actually grasping my argument. I didn't claim there are insufficient tutorials for the game. I stated how the people who reached 50 and still don't know how to play the game will just not know how to play the game, with the implication that they skipped the tutorial text and mashed buttons and survived through echo, gear, and carries by other players. Those people who don't know how to play their classes, no amount of tutorials can help because they are simply not paying attention.

Certain knowledge becomes obvious after experimentation. It's possible to get through the game without using an item at all, so that's something that doesn't have to be known, but if you do use an item, the cooldown is readily apparent. Raise is not a spell that other characters need to be familiar with because it's not in their stable of abilities, so why should they be the ones worrying about the white mage's MP when that is the white mage's job? Focus on your own abilities, learn them inside out, perform to the best of your abilities, before worrying about how badly someone else is playing. That's common sense, no?

There is also knowledge that is actually obvious. You don't need a tutorial to teach you the green bar is your health. You don't need a tutorial to learn the chat box is a chat box. You don't need a tutorial to learn how to press start to get to the menu. It's the same reason you know clicking the red X button closes the window/program. You learned these elements through frequent gaming, and can translate the symbols into your experience in any game without a necessary tutorial.

There is a line between story play and endgame play, and that is why there is a distinction when it comes to necessary research for endgame raids. Usually the people who don't look up stuff for endgame are a burden to others because their style of play is learning through playing, they don't feel like looking things up, they don't want to spoil themselves, etc., but they waste a lot of time learning mechanics they could have laid out strategies for beforehand. Even parties that prepare have trouble clearing these instances. This is the point where the extra knowledge is essential.

But for 1-50? If you know your class, you can survive all that without ever knowing Raise costs a ridiculous amount MP. You can survive without knowing what the black mage rotations are, you don't need to know what the different monk stances are. You don't need to know that Scholar gets ailment cure later than White Mage does.

The dungeons themselves serve as the places where you learn party play and presumably observe the abilities of your allies. The social aspect (the MMO of MMORPG) provides the means by which you can become familiar with other classes, mechanics, and other activities. That's why asking for more game content to explain other classes doesn't make sense, because the mechanisms to learn about them already exist.
 

diablos991

Can’t stump the diablos
Antidotes are not useful. The gargoyle fight in beta needed antidotes, sure, but they weren't that useful anyway because the item cooldown is not nearly as short as the time it took for the gargoyle to cast poison on you again. Antidotes see little use from 1-50, and a healer is much better than antidotes. There's not much use for them at all.

Why do you think alchemists were the crafting class to be laughed at back at launch? Because potions were quite useless then, and even now only the high level potions are useful—for endgame raids, not for low level play.

The gargoyle is not an example of how the developers used game content to instruct players in how to play the game better. If it had been, what would the gargoyle have been teaching? How to use items that take too long to cooldown to be useful? I beat it in beta through Cure only, because when I used antidotes the item cooldown was not short enough to mitigate the next poison anyway.

There are guildhests, dungeons, class quests, job quests, and various story instances that teach you how to play your class. The problem here isn't that there's no game content to teach people how to play better. What crazygambit is asking for is game content that will teach one guy before dungeons happen how all the other classes play...and to keep teaching them before dungeons as you level up, given that classes get new abilities as they level.

But it's already available! This game content is known as dungeons.


Useful, but you don't need to know. When I played thaumaturge in a dungeon, I tell the party straight up that I am sleeping extra mobs. If they continued to punch slept mobs, then it became their responsibility and not mine. When I played scholar, in Cutters and Brayflox I would tell the party ahead of time that I don't have a cure for ailments, and to please try and avoid getting statuses.

The responsibility for smooth progression through a dungeon does not lie solely on one player. The exacting knowledge of what other classes do is not necessary for all dungeons from 1-50. Is it useful? Yes. Is it necessary? No.

In short, additional game content to teach single classes about other classes is not essential to completion of the game. Ultimately a player doesn't understand fully how the other classes play without playing those classes anyway.

I wiped a ton to Cutter's Cry and Aurum Vale too. But I didn't need to know the exact abilities of the tanks or dps to beat these dungeons. Would the knowledge of how other classes played been useful? Probably, but for dungeons, understanding the mechanics of bosses and handling pulls in moderation play a much more important role in completion than knowing what other classes do.


You're not actually grasping my argument. I didn't claim there are insufficient tutorials for the game. I stated how the people who reached 50 and still don't know how to play the game will just not know how to play the game, with the implication that they skipped the tutorial text and mashed buttons and survived through echo, gear, and carries by other players. Those people who don't know how to play their classes, no amount of tutorials can help because they are simply not paying attention.

Certain knowledge becomes obvious after experimentation. It's possible to get through the game without using an item at all, so that's something that doesn't have to be known, but if you do use an item, the cooldown is readily apparent. Raise is not a spell that other characters need to be familiar with because it's not in their stable of abilities, so why should they be the ones worrying about the white mage's MP when that is the white mage's job? Focus on your own abilities, learn them inside out, perform to the best of your abilities, before worrying about how badly someone else is playing. That's common sense, no?

There is also knowledge that is actually obvious. You don't need a tutorial to teach you the green bar is your health. You don't need a tutorial to learn the chat box is a chat box. You don't need a tutorial to learn how to press start to get to the menu. It's the same reason you know clicking the red X button closes the window/program. You learned these elements through frequent gaming, and can translate the symbols into your experience in any game without a necessary tutorial.

There is a line between story play and endgame play, and that is why there is a distinction when it comes to necessary research for endgame raids. Usually the people who don't look up stuff for endgame are a burden to others because their style of play is learning through playing, they don't feel like looking things up, they don't want to spoil themselves, etc., but they waste a lot of time learning mechanics they could have laid out strategies for beforehand. Even parties that prepare have trouble clearing these instances. This is the point where the extra knowledge is essential.

But for 1-50? If you know your class, you can survive all that without ever knowing Raise costs a ridiculous amount MP. You can survive without knowing what the black mage rotations are, you don't need to know what the different monk stances are. You don't need to know that Scholar gets ailment cure later than White Mage does.

The dungeons themselves serve as the places where you learn party play and presumably observe the abilities of your allies. The social aspect (the MMO of MMORPG) provides the means by which you can become familiar with other classes, mechanics, and other activities. That's why asking for more game content to explain other classes doesn't make sense, because the mechanisms to learn about them already exist.

TL;DR
 
o1mcLUT.png

Might be the best glamour set I've seen yet
 

iammeiam

Member
I hate Stone Vigil, but my book says I must have it, so I queued up just for it tonight.

Issues with the tank over-pulling at first, but we eventually get to the last boss. Healer somehow dies during an air phase. The tank, BLM, and I (BRD) keep going and manage to get to the final pre-death air phase and the tank bites it to one of the giant overhead AOE attacks. I get aggro, and proceed to run around like a nut job trying to hit all the buttons on the controller while never stopping moving, and between me and the BLM we whittle the boss down to a sliver before I die. BLM manages to fire off the last spell and finish off the boss! Victory! I zone out and find I got all the commendations, which never happens! Then I realize: I was dead, so no book credit for me. I have to go back to Stone Vigil.

In conclusion: SV sucks and books suck and I hate everything.
 

Semper88

Member
I'm guessing your character is male. :'(

I don't like the shoulders either way, but the modelling of the torso looks wrong on a female.

Yeah, changed from highlander to a male cat tho..

Could not stand the way human highlanders or other humans for that matter stand like a sack of potatoes. I mean come one.. the cats stand like lets fight!

the humans stand like.. uhhh whats going on here?
 
If any of you newbie's need help getting your precursor relic or melding it, I can help as long as it's CRP or ALC. In a few days I should be able to do LTW and WVR too.
 

SkyOdin

Member
Hey Guys just hit level 50 can someone point me in the right direction?
First of all, have you beaten the story? In not, beat the main story.

After that, the best thing to do is to start the Relic Quest in the Waking Sands. You can also start the Realm Awoken plotline and start unlocking the level 50 dungeons. You can find those all over the place in Eorzea, though a fair number will be found in Mor Dhona: Revenant's Toll.

Also, you owe it to yourself to talk to Wymond in Ul'dah to start the quest "The Rise and Fall of Gentlemen".

Why do the potions have such asinine cooldowns anyway? Yoshidaaaaaaaaaaa
Just think of potions as just another defensive cooldown. The amount of healing they do won't replace a healer, but it certainly can keep you alive. A well-timed potion has saved my bacon any number of times.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
So is there like a "cosmetic" equip slot or some equivalent? It's a pretty standard feature nowadays so you can play Fashion Souls with your MMO toons, but I haven't seen anything to that effect in FFXIV.
 

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
Hey Guys just hit level 50 can someone point me in the right direction?
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/21x998/so_you_just_hit_level_50_in_patch_22/
http://demajen.co.uk/?p=5812

So is there like a "cosmetic" equip slot or some equivalent? It's a pretty standard feature nowadays so you can play Fashion Souls with your MMO toons, but I haven't seen anything to that effect in FFXIV.
You can glamour most pieces with the look from another set. You need to be lv 50 to access the sidequest to unlock the ability.

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Glamours
 

Ken

Member
So is there like a "cosmetic" equip slot or some equivalent? It's a pretty standard feature nowadays so you can play Fashion Souls with your MMO toons, but I haven't seen anything to that effect in FFXIV.

you unlock it at level 50. it's called glamours.
 

SkyOdin

Member
So is there like a "cosmetic" equip slot or some equivalent? It's a pretty standard feature nowadays so you can play Fashion Souls with your MMO toons, but I haven't seen anything to that effect in FFXIV.

Once you hit level 50, you can use glamours to replace the appearance of any of your equipment with the appearance of another item that a) fits in the same slot and b) you can equip with that class. All it takes is a Glamour Prism of the the right level and item type.
 
Why do the potions have such asinine cooldowns anyway? Yoshidaaaaaaaaaaa

It's a standard mmo cooldown for pots. Shared cooldown makes it so you have to pick what one to use in a situation, and long cooldown makes it so chugging to win isn't a viable solution. Of course if there is no real need for them then you end up with the situation the game is in now, where they are just useless except for some buffing ones in a very small number of end game fights.
 

IvorB

Member
If you're applying Thundaga with the slow Ice 1 ticks, then on top of it you're casting Blizzaga, that's a lot of time you're not spending in Astral Fire, and the more time you spend on Fire more DPS you'll have. Stick to using Flare only when you have the means to regenerate your MP without transpose.

But you would need to cast Blizzaga either way. I don't know how much mana convert gives you; does it top you up completely? Also does it give you any Umbral state at all? If not then I reckon you would still need to cast Blizzaga once the Flare is done, regardless of whether you use Transpose or Convert, to get back to full mana. So that leaves the Thundaga cast. You need to keep this up anyway and it's not affected by Astral Fire so it's not that much of a waste to do it at this point. Only issue is that it could overlap with a Thundaga already in progress in which case that's a slight issue.

Flare -> Convert -> Blizzaga -> Firaga

Flare -> Transpose -> Thundaga -> Blizzaga -> Firaga

The only extra delay is the Thundaga cast which you need to do anyway at some point so it saves you doing it later and you haven't sacrificed the HP. That's my reasoning anyway. Maybe I will play around with Convert this weekend. Definitely want to try the double Flare combo.
 
Save the Date:

Saturday Night Fights: Second Evolution
Saturday, June 7th
3 PM Pacific/6 PM Eastern

More information to come later today. This time I will ask people to sign up, so be prepared when the event goes live on Guildwork.
 

chrono01

Member
But you would need to cast Blizzaga either way. I don't know how much mana convert gives you; does it top you up completely? Also does it give you any Umbral state at all? If not then I reckon you would still need to cast Blizzaga once the Flare is done, regardless of whether you use Transpose or Convert, to get back to full mana. So that leaves the Thundaga cast. You need to keep this up anyway and it's not affected by Astral Fire so it's not that much of a waste to do it at this point. Only issue is that it could overlap with a Thundaga already in progress in which case that's a slight issue.

Flare -> Convert -> Blizzaga -> Firaga

Flare -> Transpose -> Thundaga -> Blizzaga -> Firaga

The only extra delay is the Thundaga cast which you need to do anyway at some point so it saves you doing it later and you haven't sacrificed the HP. That's my reasoning anyway. Maybe I will play around with Convert this weekend. Definitely want to try the double Flare combo.
Convert lets you keep whatever stack you have [Astral/Umbral] as well as give you more than enough Mana [at level 50] for another Fire I and then Blizzard III. As I've mentioned previously, it's just not worth using Transpose in your single target rotation, unless you mess it up somehow, and even then you can always rely on either Convert or a mana potion to get you back the mana you need to fix it. The problem with using Transpose from Astral Fire III is that it puts you into only a single Umbral Ice stack and, while you will begin re-gaining mana, it will be at a much slower pace than if you used Blizzard III and received three stacks of Umbral Ice. Not only that, the casts opposite of your stack always cast at 2x the speed, so by casting Blizzard III while in Astral Fire III it casts very fast [and vice-versa], and you'll instantly have three stacks of Umbral Ice to enable optimum mana regeneration.

My rotation, with all CD's up, is as follows [Level 50]:

Thunder II --> Fire III --> Raging Strikes --> Fire I [until around 500 mana] --> Swiftcast --> Flare --> Convert --> Fire I --> Blizzard III --> Thunder II --> Fire III [when at full mana] --> Fire I --> Rinse/Repeat

If my CD's aren't available, I go:

Thunder II --> Fire III--> Fire I [until around 500 mana] --> Blizzard III --> Thunder II --> Fire III [when at full mana] --> Fire I --> Rinse/Repeat

Use Thunderstruck proc's on Thunder III, and at a higher priority than Firestarter [since another Thunderstruck can proc at any moment, effectively wasting your first one].

For AOE, that's the only time I use Transpose. I normally go:

Fire III --> Raging Strikes --> Fire II [until around 500 mana] --> Flare --> Convert --> Swiftcast --> Flare --> Transpose --> Fire III --> Fire II x 2 --> Flare --> Transpose --> Rinse/Repeat

You can get a third Flare in there by using a mana potion or by timing your Umbral Ice tick, but this is more-or-less what I do.
 

Spades

Member
Well, I've been holding off for a while but I finally took the plunge on XIV last weekend - managed to get a PS3 copy for £4 and got the free PS4 upgrade. I'm not a newcomer to the series itself as I played a fair bit of XI back in the day but I'm really enjoying what XIV has to offer at the moment.

I want to be a Dragoon and so I'm leveling up my Lancer at the moment, just hit 13.

One quick question, is there no way to make the chat box bigger? My wife was playing alongside me on the PS3 and the chat box is noticeably bigger (wider) on that version than on my PS4 version. It's at the point where I can barely see anything in chat as things move so quickly.
 

Number45

Member
Talk to the guy in Old Gridania (10,6)
I keep forgetting this dude exists.

In conclusion: SV sucks and books suck and I hate everything.
I actually quite like SV. Aside from that room it's all good, and even that room is OK if you know what you're doing.

Last boss is OK as a tank. Stuff to avoid and watch out for, and no adds. ^_^

Yeah, changed from highlander to a male cat tho..

Could not stand the way human highlanders or other humans for that matter stand like a sack of potatoes. I mean come one.. the cats stand like lets fight!

the humans stand like.. uhhh whats going on here?
That's because the default state of mind for cats of all types is murderous. :p

For me I really want to change the running and jumping animations. Those more than anything would tip me over the edge on a Fantasia. :(

In other news I got the Weathered Noct Loria (tank soldiery chest) last night. I don't mind the body as much as I thought I would, but I'm still not keen on the shoulders and I absolutely HATE the flowing back and sides (no idea what the proper name for that is).

Today will be spent working researching body glamours. I want it to look tank like (nothing skimpy), but I don't quite want it as a suit of armour. I'll probably just glamour the AF body.
 

IvorB

Member
Convert lets you keep whatever stack you have [Astral/Umbral] as well as give you more than enough Mana [at level 50] for another Fire I and then Blizzard III. As I've mentioned previously, it's just not worth using Transpose in your single target rotation, unless you mess it up somehow, and even then you can always rely on either Convert or a mana potion to get you back the mana you need to fix it. The problem with using Transpose from Astral Fire III is that it puts you into only a single Umbral Ice stack and, while you will begin re-gaining mana, it will be at a much slower pace than if you used Blizzard III and received three stacks of Umbral Ice. Not only that, the casts opposite of your stack always cast at 2x the speed, so by casting Blizzard III while in Astral Fire III it casts very fast [and vice-versa], and you'll instantly have three stacks of Umbral Ice to enable optimum mana regeneration.

My rotation, with all CD's up, is as follows [Level 50]:

Thunder II --> Fire III --> Raging Strikes --> Fire I [until around 500 mana] --> Swiftcast --> Flare --> Convert --> Fire I --> Blizzard III --> Thunder II --> Fire III [when at full mana] --> Fire I --> Rinse/Repeat

If my CD's aren't available, I go:

Thunder II --> Fire III--> Fire I [until around 500 mana] --> Blizzard III --> Thunder II --> Fire III [when at full mana] --> Fire I --> Rinse/Repeat

Use Thunderstruck proc's on Thunder III, and at a higher priority than Firestarter [since another Thunderstruck can proc at any moment, effectively wasting your first one].

For AOE, that's the only time I use Transpose. I normally go:

Fire III --> Raging Strikes --> Fire II [until around 500 mana] --> Flare --> Convert --> Swiftcast --> Flare --> Transpose --> Fire III --> Fire II x 2 --> Flare --> Transpose --> Rinse/Repeat

You can get a third Flare in there by using a mana potion or by timing your Umbral Ice tick, but this is more-or-less what I do.

Yeah I remember we discussed this and I've taken transpose out of my regular combos. But I'm still figuring out how best to work with Flare as I only unlocked it recently. I'll certainly try out convert when I play next but I don't like the idea of placing additional demands on the healer just to do my attacks. How much is the HP drain for convert? Isn't it, like, 50%? Yikes. *Shudders*
 

Ken

Member

I don't understand his argument. Is it that mechanics-driven fights are bad because if you can't execute them properly you can't win?

“Why not just make the boss or enemy simply strong?” is the basis of my recommendation.

Yeah that kind of sounds like he wants mechanics to be more lenient or to take a backseat which would just lead to groups brute forcing everything with gear and faceroll.

It feels like someone arguing that they should be able to pass a driving test solely because they got from point A to point B without crashing into anyone despite speeding and ignoring red lights, stop signs, and other rules of the road.
 

Number45

Member
I actually like the mechanic heavy fights that I've done so far. Sure it means that you need to be competent and work as a team to clear them, but that's what I want from an MMO at least for progression content.
 

theta11

Member
I don't understand his argument. Is it that mechanics-driven fights are bad because if you can't execute them properly you can't win?



Yeah that kind of sounds like he wants mechanics to be more lenient or to take a backseat which would just lead to groups brute forcing everything with gear and faceroll.

It feels like someone arguing that they should be able to pass a driving test solely because they got from point A to point B without crashing into anyone despite speeding and ignoring red lights, stop signs, and other rules of the road.

It's not that if you can't execute them properly you can't win. It's that the way they design the fights are focused primarily on mechanics over your ability to play your class or the gear you possess. Neither way is better than the other and it is important to have a good mix when you are designing content. As it stands right now there is no mix. Which is why every fight in my opinion can be simplified into the concept "DPS & Dodge".
 

draw4wild

Member
In conclusion: SV sucks and books suck and I hate everything.

This.....For me the hardest part of the 3 books I've done has been the low level dungeon. Half the time I queue up and either the tank or healer leaves immediately. I'm specifically avoiding the book for Aurum Vale as long as I can and when I have to do it I think I'll beg FC to help.

I don't understand his argument. Is it that mechanics-driven fights are bad because if you can't execute them properly you can't win?

I get his point tho, I don't raid high end and probably never will. But with the way it is now, in a year when I have 2x the hp and dps, it won't make it any easier for me to experience these encounters after the fact, I still need to learn every aspect of the fight as if I didnt have the extra hp/dps.
 

dramatis

Member
Yeah I remember we discussed this and I've taken transpose out of my regular combos. But I'm still figuring out how best to work with Flare as I only unlocked it recently. I'll certainly try out convert when I play next but I don't like the idea of placing additional demands on the healer just to do my attacks. How much is the HP drain for convert? Isn't it, like, 50%? Yikes. *Shudders*
"Sacrifices 20% of maximum HP to restore 30% of MP. Cannot be executed when current HP is lower than 20%."

Not advised for Titan obviously. Although in Titan you can try to live on the edge and Manawall his Landslide.
 

Number45

Member
It's not that if you can't execute them properly you can't win. It's that the way they design the fights are focused primarily on mechanics over your ability to play your class or the gear you possess. Neither way is better than the other and it is important to have a good mix when you are designing content. As it stands right now there is no mix. Which is why every fight in my opinion can be simplified into the concept "DPS & Dodge".

Ability to play the class as DPS = DPS check (focus on specific targets)
As tank = mitigation on incoming damage and holding enmity (which I believe is trivial)
As healer = dealing with unavoidable damage/cleansing

... surely the mechanics of the fight and the requirement to play your class properly are intrinsically linked? If you take the mechanics out of the fight (I'm working on the paraphrasing above, so apologies if I'm simplifying this too much) then you're left with a tank and spank and your role becomes resource management.

I'm not experienced in the end game content, but to me it seems like what's there now is a good mix of everything.
 

Ken

Member
It's not that if you can't execute them properly you can't win. It's that the way they design the fights are focused primarily on mechanics over your ability to play your class or the gear you possess. Neither way is better than the other and it is important to have a good mix when you are designing content. As it stands right now there is no mix. Which is why every fight in my opinion can be simplified into the concept "DPS & Dodge".

Hm, it's still my opinion that fights are quite dependent on player ability. Tanks still need an understanding on cooldown allocation and add management, DPS should know how to deliver the proper amount of damage when it's needed, and healers should be keeping the right people up on top of managing their mana pool.

I don't know if I could objectively weigh the balance of mechanics versus player ability/gear but I do think there's a good reliance on both mechanics and player ability in most current fights.

I get his point tho, I don't raid high end and probably never will. But with the way it is now, in a year when I have 2x the hp and dps, it won't make it any easier for me to experience these encounters after the fact, I still need to learn every aspect of the fight as if I didnt have the extra hp/dps.

Idunno, are you saying you want a free pass through Coil2 simply because you got handed free i150 Artifact3 armor many years down the line?

I think there's fun to be found in learning and executing mechanics properly, not from just seeing "Duty Complete" flash across the screen.
 

theta11

Member
Hm, it's still my opinion that fights are quite dependent on player ability. Tanks still need an understanding on cooldown allocation and add management, DPS should know how to deliver the proper amount of damage when it's needed, and healers should be keeping the right people up on top of managing their mana pool.

I don't know if I could objectively weigh the balance of mechanics versus player ability/gear but I do think there's a good reliance on both mechanics and player ability in most current fights.



Idunno, are you saying you want a free pass through Coil2 simply because you got handed free i150 Artifact3 armor many years down the line?

I don't think his point is that there is a reliance on all those aspects. His problem is the reliance on one in particular is weighed more heavily than the other aspects. This is completely true in many cases.

Basically the focus of many the fights is about "doing the dance". Some people find this sort of gameplay fun. Others however prefer a different kind of difficulty. The problem with these kind of fights you can't really "skill" your way through them. You have to put time in for all eight players to learn the dance. And your success comes at the point when the last person learns to dance. Some people prefer the difficulty born from having to make split second decisions. Something this game is sorely lacking.

I have no idea why there is such a black or white view of this on this topic. Because a person complains fights are too mechanics heavy means that he wants no mechanics at all?
 

system11

Member
Hm, it's still my opinion that fights are quite dependent on player ability.

Would have to agree, sometimes rolling with a broken wheel can mean the difference between success or wipe, and certainly makes a difference in dungeon runtimes.

I like mechanics being mandatory, it's broken if you can just DPS through everything.
 

Number45

Member
Basically the focus of many the fights is about "doing the dance". Some people find this sort of gameplay fun. Others however prefer a different kind of difficulty. The problem with these kind of fights you can't really "skill" your way through them. You have to put time in for all eight players to learn the dance. And your success comes at the point when the last person learns to dance. Some people prefer the difficulty born from having to make split second decisions. Something this game is sorely lacking.
Having to react to what's going on is great, but in an online game it has it's own set of very obvious problems. You can be very good at your class, but if you're suffering a relatively poor connection or reaction times aren't your forte then you're going to struggle.

To me the predictable mechanics help because they're predictable.

It's a tough one for them to resolve to the satisfaction of all. Are there examples of other MMO encounters that have been less polarising? I can only draw from my experience with WoW, but with each expansion and focus on a different type of fight you have people that loved and people that hated the changes.

So many people will list vanilla, BC or WotLK as their favourites for different reasons.

I have no idea why there is such a black or white view of this on this topic. Because a person complains fights are too mechanics heavy means that he wants no mechanics at all?
I was basing my comments on the back of “Why not just make the boss or enemy simply strong?”, which suggests wanting a greatly simplified fight. I'll try and read the full break down later.
 

Yu Narukami

Member
Lately I've been thinking about replaying this. I stopped at the time just before 2.2 because I was tired of grinding tomes every week. Is now the right time to come back or should I wait for the expansion or 2.3? Is it still grind tomes till your head explodes?
 
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