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[iammeiam]

T9 divebombs are easy.

Spoiler

Get Asami to do it for you

Even with everything marked I still die! I have no idea what is happening! Sprint does nothing! I have recorded and gone back and watched and I still don't know!

It's basically to the point I consider it a success if I'm the only death. At least with Levi I could just DF it forever until I worked out the timing for dashes and slams and grand falls and how to bait and such.

 

[studyguy]

3 MUHATMUS / 12 down

muh atmus!

Also there's no worse feeling than having a 1 in mini cacpot revealed first, then checking all the spots around it only to realize the game fucked you.

_ _ _
_ _ _
_ 1 _

OH MAN!

_ _ _
_ 8 _
3 1 9

FUCK!

 

[Dunan]

You should try getting in a GAF group for T5 these days--I remember grouping up with you one night months and months ago while I was still trying to get a clear, and the difference between then and now is pretty ridiculous.

Yes, I remember that group, and I remember not knowing how to handle the "hide in a little crevasse" part that comes after the initial Conflagration-based phase. It was frustrating, because even if you have one part pretty much down, the party is still going to wipe when a whole new insta-death mechanic comes in, and with it being halfway through the fight, you just can't practice it.

If you were in the GAF party I was in immediately before that, we took on Hullbreaker Isle and Tam-Tara Deepcroft HM as total beginners and were able to win them. Often wiping a time or two at certain bosses as we learned what to do, but we tried, figured out what was being asked of us, and eventually won. It was great. We were able to learn the battles while fighting them, which T5 (and presumably T9) just don't allow for.

Final Coil does seem to have been designed specifically with ease of future nerfs in mind, and less last-minute surprise mechanics (T11 tethers, T12 fountain are really the only things I can think of?) so they do seem to be learning.

The "last-minute surprise mechanics" are such a huge turn-off; are they standard in MMOs? Ratcheting up the difficulty of an already-established mechanic (making an area of effect slightly bigger; demanding a better reaction time for an enemy attack) is fine, and expected in video game boss fights. But to suddenly spring something on you that will cause you to instantly lose the entire battle if you don't pick up on it in a fraction of a second (in a game where you can't pause, remember)... who could possibly think these kinds of things are fun?

 

[Pellegri Testament]

The "last-minute surprise mechanics" are such a huge turn-off; are they standard in MMOs? Ratcheting up the difficulty of an already-established mechanic (making an area of effect slightly bigger; demanding a better reaction time for an enemy attack) is fine, and expected in video game boss fights. But to suddenly spring something on you that will cause you to instantly lose the entire battle if you don't pick up on it in a fraction of a second (in a game where you can't pause, remember)... who could possibly think these kinds of things are fun?

They are actually used in quite a few mmo raid fights. They're meant to keep you on your toes, rather than keep throwing the same things at you for the entirety of the fight and the fight becoming stale and easy because you know everything there is to know within the first few minutes. You're not meant to know how to deal with certain mechanics the first time you see them, trial and error has always been a major part of progression raiding.

 

[suzu]

I just returned to the game yesterday to ramp up for Heavensward.

For someone returning to the game since just after ARR's launch (cleared Garuda, but Titan, so I still don't even have my base Relic, 0 Coil turns cleared), what should I be doing or focusing on? I'm not too worried about getting back into end-game content since it's going to be obsolete very soon, so I'm wondering more about added game functions or features I need to unlock, important things to collect/farm, or other things to prepare for the expansion.

Probably just going to level various DoW/H classes up in the meanwhile.

These two links should be helpful.

- http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Guide:Progression_and_Level_Locked_Content
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HxICNH__f_qtlJTqPRmm8-zhohbz0HON_Mr7mutQEuc/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Tiops]

Reaching the final levels on my crafting classes . Those lvl40 leves are pretty expensive of you're no leveling other classes together (CRP lv40 requires Cobalt spears, and Cobalt Ingots are pretty expensive on Behemoth).

I think I'll get CRP, WVR and GSM to 50 this weekend. And I'm starting to few the sadness when people break the MB with low prices...

Btw, when do I get a skill that makes percentages less bullshit? I mean, 80% is like 50% when crafting and 25% when gathering D:

 

[Aeriscloud]

Redemption!

 

[StMeph]

These two links should be helpful.

- http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Guide:Progression_and_Level_Locked_Content
- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HxICNH__f_qtlJTqPRmm8-zhohbz0HON_Mr7mutQEuc/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks! That's basically exactly what I need to browse through right now.

 

[Xux]

Reaching the final levels on my crafting classes . Those lvl40 leves are pretty expensive of you're no leveling other classes together (CRP lv40 requires Cobalt spears, and Cobalt Ingots are pretty expensive on Behemoth).

I think I'll get CRP, WVR and GSM to 50 this weekend. And I'm starting to few the sadness when people break the MB with low prices...

Btw, when do I get a skill that makes percentages less bullshit? I mean, 80% is like 50% when crafting and 25% when gathering D:

Culinarian 37 is Steady Hand II which is a 30% boost.

 

[Tiops]

Culinarian 37 is Steady Hand II which is a 30% boost.

I got that already, but sometimes it feels like it reduced my chances. Seriously, yesterday I purposedly failed a craft after 7 Hasty Touches misses in a row...

 

[EndcatOmega]

I got that already, but sometimes it feels like it reduced my chances. Seriously, yesterday I purposedly failed a craft after 7 Hasty Touches misses in a row...

RNG gonna RNG. But yeah there's no way to make Hasty Touches 100%- there'd be no reason to use Basic Touches otherwise.

 

[LaneDS]

On a similar topic, which class is best for the later Ixali dailies that prevent you from using the cross-class skills?

 

[iammeiam]

If you were in the GAF party I was in immediately before that, we took on Hullbreaker Isle and Tam-Tara Deepcroft HM as total beginners and were able to win them. Often wiping a time or two at certain bosses as we learned what to do, but we tried, figured out what was being asked of us, and eventually won. It was great. We were able to learn the battles while fighting them, which T5 (and presumably T9) just don't allow for.

I wasn't in that group, but that doesn't surprise me because dungeons are fundamentally different content. For want of a better descriptor, they're not supposed to be hard, even when they're current. They're designed and tuned with the idea of four randoms being able to triumph in under an hour and a half (I can think of at least two dungeon bosses that patch that could be solo'd for most or all of the fight if necessary). Coil's entire purpose is to require a bunch of time and concentrated effort, and so encounter design that doesn't allow for a single ninety minute clear isn't super surprising.

There's a question of if/when they should nerfbat irrelevant coil down to dungeon level, though. T5 at that time was the hurdle you were supposed to get over to get to the 'current' hard content, so preserving some of the difficulty made some level of sense because it doesn't get any easier from there. That makes less sense now, since all it's barring you from is the joke-status iterations of 6,7, and 8.

I dunno, I think it's appropriate and expected for raid content to require a time investment dungeon content doesn't, but the question of how hard they nerf it and when is pretty interesting. My preference would be for opening avenues so people can just learn things piece by piece, but that'd still require a more-than-dungeons time investment. Hopefully that's what Alexander ezmode is going to be.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You should try getting in a GAF group for T5 these days--I remember grouping up with you one night months and months ago while I was still trying to get a clear, and the difference between then and now is pretty ridiculous. I think that group fell apart over Conflag and fireball indicators just flat-out not being seen, and somebody just raging over it because some people have short fuses, but subsequent overgearing has made it such that it's much less of an issue because it is possible to burn down the conflag in time even if half the party is stuck in there, and it is possible to two-soak a fireball if the marked person keeps running away. I think the only actual one-shot left in T5 is the wall, and a completely unsplit fireball and the latter will only kill 1 person which is, at this point, effectively nothing.

I still think they should introduce practice mode DF queues for trouble spots in the tougher fights, or 4-man Guildhests that emultate specific mechanics, or something. I would permanently relocate to T9 Divebomb practice because it's pissing me off.

Final Coil does seem to have been designed specifically with ease of future nerfs in mind, and less last-minute surprise mechanics (T11 tethers, T12 fountain are really the only things I can think of?) so they do seem to be learning.

I realized the other day that first boss on WoD is basically practice mode for T7 boss petrifaction.

 

[Frumix]

A number of mechanics utilized in Coil are subsequently placed into dungeons and easier raids and trials. Still not sure if it's a conscious effort or if it's just a blatant rehash!

 

[Dunan]

A number of mechanics utilized in Coil are subsequently placed into dungeons and easier raids and trials. Still not sure if it's a conscious effort or if it's just a blatant rehash!

I should hope it's the former -- the game should be teaching us the skills we need in later battles and not just throwing unavoidable YOU DIED mechanics at us when we're in parties with other players.

 

[QisTopTier]

I should hope it's the former -- the game should be teaching us the skills we need in later battles and not just throwing unavoidable YOU DIED mechanics at us when we're in parties with other players.

RIP 2.0 Twister

 

[UrSuLeTzU]

Ahh, the good ol' times. I swear Grimm was the first in GAF to get that behemoth helm(he was always there when it spawned, for some reason). Also RIP Milky Way, at least I still remember you
P.S: I still haven't forgotten the time you stole my Allagan Circlet Of Casting the first time we did coil, you stupid jerk

 

[aceface]

^^

RIP Kawazi T_T

 

[UrSuLeTzU]

^^
A moment of silence for our departed friends...

 

[scy]

The "last-minute surprise mechanics" are such a huge turn-off; are they standard in MMOs?

It's basically the gold standard of MMOs. And, for the most part, I prefer that kind of design to fights just hitting harder as time goes by. Almost every raid boss will get progressively harder throughout the fight. The issue is when you have fights like T5/T9 where each phase is completely unrelated to the other phases. Final Coil kept the "more mechanics as the fight goes on" aspect but it never deviates from the core fight too much outside of T12.

 

[EndcatOmega]

It's basically the gold standard of MMOs. And, for the most part, I prefer that kind of design to fights just hitting harder as time goes by. Almost every raid boss will get progressively harder throughout the fight. The issue is when you have fights like T5/T9 where each phase is completely unrelated to the other phases. Final Coil kept the "more mechanics as the fight goes on" aspect but it never deviates from the core fight too much outside of T12.

Even T12's phase 3 is related to what you do in 1 and 2, so it's not too cut off.

 

[Tabris]

T13 Phase 3 is a total different segment.

Also holy fuck is T8 Savage hard. It can't be simplified like the non-savage fights. It must be hardest fight in the game.

 

[scy]

Even T12's phase 3 is related to what you do in 1 and 2, so it's not too cut off.

Yeah, it's nowhere near T5/T9's level of different phases glued together. Just, of the Final Coil turns, it's the one that changes the most from phase to phase: Blackfire / Whitefire -> Brand + Redfire / Bluefire -> Brand + Fountain + Pinions.

The boss rotation stays mostly the same, though, so there's that.

T13 Phase 3 is a total different segment.

Pretty much every add phase in this game is unrelated to the rest of the fight since they're without the boss around.

Edit: Though, yeah, Divebombs are still Divebombs. I guess what keeps T13 from feeling like T5 again is that the final phase is back to Phase 1 rather than something unrelated like Twisters.

 

[Tabris]

Pretty much every add phase in this game is unrelated to the rest of the fight since they're without the boss around.

Disagree. T5, T6, T7, T8, and T9 have add phases with boss around.

Edit: Though, yeah, Divebombs are still Divebombs. I guess what keeps T13 from feeling like T5 again is that the final phase is back to Phase 1 rather than something unrelated like Twisters.

Um... lol

 

[Dunan]

What would you MMO veterans think of these fights with wildly differing phases if they presented the phases in a random order?

You would still have to master them all in order to win, but it would be possible to learn how to handle the late phases because you would actually get to see them.

As it is, we never get to practice the later phases. Some kind of training mode or special guildhest might be another way.

 

[scy]

Disagree. T5, T6, T7, T8, and T9 have add phases with boss around.

Perhaps this depends on your definition of add phases. Of those, the only ones I'd say have a phase devoted to adds are T5, T7, and T9. T7 was the exception to "add phase without the boss around" since the fight is basically about handling things that spawn while eventually killing the boss.

That said, how exactly does T5 have an add phase with the boss around? The pull? Dreads?

Um... lol

I mean, Tempest Wing and Twisters aren't really that similar in terms of how you deal with them. Twisters in T5 are this weird dance to not step in what you drop with random assignment, Tempest Wing is intercepting a tether and not blowing up people nearby.

 

[Valor]

I don't mind the fight changing completely from phase to phase. When you have a phase repeat (like T13's last phase) I think it becomes easier, in a way, because there's the familiarity rather than doing something completely new like T9's final phase. I'm not sure which method I prefer, honestly, but I think I lean towards a familiar callback with a new twist or something added in.

I still feel the only reason T5 is so hard for people is because divebombs are literally nowhere else in the game until you reach that point, and the mechanic is pretty hard to wrap your head around. I'm certain that a large chunk of players know you run from the ditch to out of the ditch but couldn't tell you at all the reasons why. I'm also sure a large percentage of people don't understand T9 dives either. Then you put "divebombs" in faceroll ST trash pulls. I don't understand the logic.

edit -> I wouldn't consider Dreads or Pull to be add phases. Sleepius is the only add phase, as far as I'm concerned. Dreads are just another mechanic in the fight that you dps down, and the pull is literally whatever. For t9, I would consider golems to be the add phase as well, and not the Scourges.

 

[Tabris]

That said, how exactly does T5 have an add phase with the boss around? The pull? Dreads?

But yes, there's the pull. Then there's Storm diving around during Snake phase. And dread knights.

EDIT - I forgot about dread knights, thought you meant dreadnaughts.

Dreadknights, yo. Twin isn't even on the field for snakes.

He's on the field diving around fucking your shit up unless you run up and down a hill looking stupid lol.

 

[Valor]

But yes, there's the pull. Then there's Storm diving around during Snake phase.

Dreadknights, yo. Twin isn't even on the field for snakes.

 

[Tabris]

Anyways, your point was that Final Coil doesn't have totally new surprise mechanics during each new phase. And I disagree, the add phases are new surprise mechanics.

Nothing you learned in Phase 1 and 2 helps you with Phase 3 of T13. Same with Phase 2 of T11. Same with Phase 3 and 4 of T12, etc.

 

[iammeiam]

I guess what keeps T13 from feeling like T5 again is that the final phase is back to Phase 1 rather than something unrelated like Twisters.

Is there anything introduced in T13 past phase, like, two that doesn't more or less directly map to something in a previous fight? Things that are new to the fight show up, but all of it seems to feel at least vaguely familiar. VS 5 and 9 where every phase introduced mechanics that felt brand new to the game. 13 seems like it switches up what it asks people to do fairly frequently, but by the midpoint of the fight there's nothing really completely new. Here's some adds that buff each other, here's a thing to stand in, here's some tethers to intercept, here's fucking divebombs again because OF COURSE, etc etc etc. New to the fight, but all stuff people should have done previously. Maybe Akh Morns? I dunno.

 

[Tabris]

Is there anything introduced in T13 past phase, like, two that doesn't more or less directly map to something in a previous fight? Things that are new to the fight show up, but all of it seems to feel at least vaguely familiar. VS 5 and 9 where every phase introduced mechanics that felt brand new to the game. 13 seems like it switches up what it asks people to do fairly frequently, but by the midpoint of the fight there's nothing really completely new. Here's some adds that buff each other, here's a thing to stand in, here's some tethers to intercept, here's fucking divebombs again because OF COURSE, etc etc etc. New to the fight, but all stuff people should have done previously. Maybe Akh Morns? I dunno.

Megaflare mechanic is pretty unique, especially with columns and twisters. Earth shaker mechanic is also pretty unique. And how you deal with dive bombs is pretty unique due to the megaflare that occurs right after.

Add phase has some unique things like a mob that switches between physical and magical immunity (I can only think of an S rank hunt that does something similar).

 

[Shamdeo]

i am secret behe

 

[Pellegri Testament]

What would you MMO veterans think of these fights with wildly differing phases if they presented the phases in a random order?

You would still have to master them all in order to win, but it would be possible to learn how to handle the late phases because you would actually get to see them.

As it is, we never get to practice the later phases. Some kind of training mode or special guildhest might be another way.

It doesn't matter if you can handle the later phases or not. If you can't handle a phase leading up to a later one, then you still won't get the fight down, whether things are random or not. How exactly would making the phases random solve anything? If anything it just makes it harder and guarantees that less people will even down the fight because they can't adapt to the randomness.

 

[iammeiam]

Megaflare mechanic is pretty unique, especially with columns and twisters. Earth shaker mechanic is also pretty unique. And how you deal with dive bombs is pretty unique due to the megaflare that occurs right after.

Megaflare and pillars are in by phase two, though (well, one pylon is)--My general impression is that the actual new to T13 stuff is more or less frontloaded, and everything they introduce later is a revisit tweaked or enhanced by the combination of mechanics.

 

[Tabris]

Megaflare and pillars are in by phase two, though (well, one pylon is)--My general impression is that the actual new to T13 stuff is more or less frontloaded, and everything they introduce later is a revisit tweaked or enhanced by the combination of mechanics.

I listed other things you didn't quote that answers your question.

 

[iammeiam]

I listed other things you didn't quote that answers your question.

Did you maybe edit that in shortly after posting? I didn't edit my quote. The only example that didn't make my quote is the immunity swap, which is one I didn't think of.

 

[scy]

Anyways, your point was that Final Coil doesn't have totally new surprise mechanics during each new phase. And I disagree, the add phases are new surprise mechanics.

Nothing you learned in Phase 1 and 2 helps you with Phase 3 of T13. Same with Phase 2 of T11. Same with Phase 3 and 4 of T12, etc.

No, my point was that Final Coil fights aren't like T5/T9 where you have phases in the same fight that only share a relation by virtue of being in the same fight. Nothing about it not having new surprise mechanics, just that it doesn't do it by radically changing the fight. Pretty much all of the Final Coil fights build upon themselves somehow rather than just throwing out the old mechanics and putting an entire new set of ones.

Add phases are an exception to this but they're also almost always the exception to this.

Did you maybe edit that in shortly after posting? I didn't edit my quote. The only example that didn't make my quote is the immunity swap, which is one I didn't think of.

It's pretty much just T4's Knight/Soldier except in one mob. So depends if you want to count that as an old mechanic revisited or not.

 

[Tabris]

Did you maybe edit that in shortly after posting? I didn't edit my quote. The only example that didn't make my quote is the immunity swap, which is one I didn't think of.

Evil eye, an HP percentage attack is pretty unique too.

 

[Frumix]

Tempest Wing is give or take a reissue of Homing Missile from T8, now with more knockback. Megaflare Tower... Actually happens in ST and WoD on the last boss, twice in ST if you count standing in circles to prevent Glasya from charging, but strictly speaking Aetherochemical Explosion works just like Megaflare tower. Of course the timing and implementation are an entirely different matter as T13 versions don't give you half a day to deal with it.

Evil Eye is new, yeah.

The standard method of dodging T5 divebombs is unintended anyway, so I can see why it might be confusing. The reason why it works is because you move out of the vertical range of the dive, which isn't something that the developers had accounted for, nor is it immediately obvious (if you think about it, for it to be logical, surely you should be dodging into the ditch rather than out of it). I recall this came up in a Yoshida interview that I'm having trouble finding - pretty sure it was mentioned in the context of the T2 enrage strategy if that rings a bell for anyone.

As I understand it, the reason it works is that the ditch is inexplicably outside of the orbit on which Twintania spawns so she dashes away from the field as opposed to through it.

 

[cultureculture]

I still feel the only reason T5 is so hard for people is because divebombs are literally nowhere else in the game until you reach that point, and the mechanic is pretty hard to wrap your head around. I'm certain that a large chunk of players know you run from the ditch to out of the ditch but couldn't tell you at all the reasons why. I'm also sure a large percentage of people don't understand T9 dives either. Then you put "divebombs" in faceroll ST trash pulls. I don't understand the logic.

The standard method of dodging T5 divebombs is unintended anyway, so I can see why it might be confusing. The reason why it works is because you move out of the vertical range of the dive, which isn't something that the developers had accounted for, nor is it immediately obvious (if you think about it, for it to be logical, surely you should be dodging into the ditch rather than out of it). I recall this came up in a Yoshida interview that I'm having trouble finding - pretty sure it was mentioned in the context of the T2 enrage strategy if that rings a bell for anyone.

 

[scy]

The standard method of dodging T5 divebombs is unintended anyway, so I can see why it might be confusing. The reason why it works is because you move out of the vertical range of the dive, which isn't something that the developers had accounted for, nor is it immediately obvious (if you think about it, for it to be logical, surely you should be dodging into the ditch rather than out of it). I recall this came up in a Yoshida interview that I'm having trouble finding - pretty sure it was mentioned in the context of the T2 enrage strategy if that rings a bell for anyone.

They say unintended and all that but the adds literally spawn around that safe spot anyway!

But, yeah, the ditch is a Z-axis / hitbox thing and not really how it's meant to be done.

 

[Valor]

Maybe Akh Morns? I dunno.

I would argue that the only new thing that the final phase adds is Akh Morn. We've seen similar abilities in the game before, but nothing quite like Akh Morn. T9 has Bahamut's Claw which is basically your crazy soft wipe mechanic, similar to Akh Morn in that multiple hits that gain even more multiple the more times used. The splitting damage mechanic is used in the Hydra fight for Triumvirate and several other damage splitting attacks (including Megaflare in t13) but usually splitting damage is more of less people can choose to split it or not. Tethering two people together to share damage is a rather new approach to it, but... it isn't uh. Super duper novel, I guess.

I'm from the Game Theory School of Thought™ that fights should build on each other and be cohesive, like scy is saying FCoB is. Throwing in a literal new ability set every phase (Twin-kun) isn't optimal, I feel, because of what Dunan said. Every phase you need to figure out "Okay, what the fuck is this and that? Oh great, now we need to do all of that again to get to the part we don't know". I remember Kagari saying that for t9, and it's extremely true. If you get through the opening phase, then you have to figure out how to deal with Golems, then Heavensfall, then tethers/dives/etc. All of which are radically different and time consuming to learn and practice. That's why I feel the final phase of t13 is more manageable, because it's stuff you've already seen with a few new tweaks to it. Much better design, I think.

 

[Tabris]

Tempest Wing is give or take a reissue of Homing Missile from T8, now with more knockback.

Homing missile has 0 knockback btw. So the knockback is unique.

 

[Tiops]

I agree that those "surprise! You're dead" phases aren't really great. T5 and T9 has those after 10 minutes of easy stuff.

I can see how T9 must have been for the first groups: Wipe a little bit at phase 1, understand how meteors work and that Ravensbeak is bad. Then you clear that pretty fast, understand the DPS check on golems, organize the group with second meteors, survive mega flare aaand a giant thing kills everyone. Ok, do things again and get pushed to the wall, understanding how Heavesfall works.

Learn Ghosts, understand how to clear Garrote, gets mechanics and clear things. Then Nael starts casting Bahamut's Claw and HOLY MOTHER OF GOD WHAT HAPPENED? After that it's 10 minutes of boring easy stuff until you get to pure chaos that wipe the party in 5 seconds and you have no idea why. You have to record that and watch in slow motion to see what's hitting you, why and in what order. When you finally get it, Divebombs. I love T9, and find the last phase pretty easy, but that's because someone wiped a lot there so I could read a guide and memorize everything. Even then, to find a group that can do everything flawlessly is pretty hard.

I hope Final Coil is different...

 

[Frumix]

Homing missile has 0 knockback btw. So the knockback is unique.

Knockback comes from Twintania's Twisters!
There's a lot of familiar patterns is all I'm saying which is why say when we attempted T10 blind we immediately started brainstorming ways to stack/unstack/kama sutra our way around the mechanics as opposed to just screaming WHAT DO WE DO.

Actually that makes me wonder how they're gonna approach further encounter design because besides reconfiguring mechanics, is there really that much they haven't done yet?

 

[Tabris]

Tiops, T13 progression is exactly the same as that except the Phase 4 moment of T9 occurs in Phase 3 of T13. That's the hard part to get out of successfully (everyone alive, healers mp not fucked, etc).

You still go through the "Let's do boring Phase 1 and 2 over every single time to get to practice later phases".

 

[Tabris]

Knockback comes from Twintania's Twisters!

There's a lot of familiar patterns is all I'm saying which is why say when we attempted T10 blind we immediately started brainstorming ways to stack/unstack/kama sutra our way around the mechanics as opposed to just screaming WHAT DO WE DO.

T5 Twisters don't knock back. They just kill you. There's an animation where they kick you into the sky, but it's just an animation.

 

[Frumix]

T5 Twisters don't knock back. They just kill you. There's an animation where they kick you into the sky, but it's just an animation.

They kill the unlucky sapper but if somebody happens to stand close to the explosion, they do get knocked back with the force of a thousand suns, and I'm not sure if it doesn't go all the way into the wall in 100% cases.