Ah the Mog Ex roadblock. I've been there. So deceptively simple and yet...
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Final Fantasy XIV |OT6| Casino Royale
- Thread starter tiggerkiddo
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Ah the Mog Ex roadblock. I've been there. So deceptively simple and yet...
Maybe they don't care about that as much as lengthening the content out for top groups. Which I wouldn't agree with but who knows. Maybe they were embarrassed by how fast stuff was cleared the last few patches.
Doesn't that directly contradict what they said when they first announced the lower mode?
I hope it's that. I would prefer normal mode to be like our traditional raid, then a savage mode that actually gives you something.
I don't see the problem with gating some content from 90% of the player base to appease the 10%, when most of the other content in the game is for that 90%.
I also don't see a problem with 90% being a lower ilevel than the 10%. Maybe they need to change to a different naming system than ilevel. Maybe raid gear has a different colour.
I don't see the problem with gating some content from 90% of the player base to appease the 10%, when most of the other content in the game is for that 90%.
I also don't see a problem with 90% being a lower ilevel than the 10%. Maybe they need to change to a different naming system than ilevel. Maybe raid gear has a different colour.
Not even close to 10%
Probably a bad translation. While having super savage mode versions of future raids would certainly solve the problem of end game raiders clearing content too quickly, that's a far smaller problem than all the players stuck on first or second coil, and so on and so forth.
Having the leaving the story modes easier, at least allows new players to get caught up more quickly. Oh, sure, they'll be in for a rough time when they do start tackling the HM versions, but it's really not so different from now considering how heavily previous versions of Coil were nerfed.
Besides, during Fan Fest, YoshiP described Story Mode, as being aimed for intermediate level players. Making it harder than current Final Coil wouldn't fit that at all.
Having the leaving the story modes easier, at least allows new players to get caught up more quickly. Oh, sure, they'll be in for a rough time when they do start tackling the HM versions, but it's really not so different from now considering how heavily previous versions of Coil were nerfed.
Besides, during Fan Fest, YoshiP described Story Mode, as being aimed for intermediate level players. Making it harder than current Final Coil wouldn't fit that at all.
Point still stands, no matter the percentages.
Also who cares if people are stuck on 1st or 2nd coil? It's content meant for the raiding community. The rest of the content in the game is for those players.
This is why you don't make MMOs, no one would play it.
lol no one would play your loli cat girl fetish MMO either
But really, ignoring the MMO part, Square Enix does this with plenty of games. Take any of the recent Final Fantasy games, they all have a side boss(es) - such as Weapons, Ozy, Yiazmat, etc - that most gamers won't be able to beat because they require significant time. They are a side aspect for those that want the enhanced challenge and accomplishment.
They don't need to make it so 100% of the audience is able to complete all content.
Just in case you don't actually know how Final Coil works, you need a preformed group for it, no Duty Finder. On top of that, it's on the weekly lockout (similar to WoD but without the "run it infinitely until you get what you want" bit) so if you want loot, it needs to be a group of people that haven't cleared for the week.
I wouldn't be worrying about doing Final Coil (and, thus 515 - 558 Accuracy values) until then. You can easily hit 512 Accuracy with just Soldiery gear and basic food.
The goal is for the majority of the audience to be capable of doing it, however. That's the carrot that keeps the most people around.
Pellegri Testament
Member
lol no one would play your loli cat girl fetish MMO either
.....I might
lol no one would play your loli cat girl fetish MMO either
But really, ignoring the MMO part, Square Enix does this with plenty of games. Take any of the recent Final Fantasy games, they all have a side boss(es) - such as Weapons, Ozy, Yiazmat, etc - that most gamers won't be able to beat because they require significant time. They are a side aspect for those that want the enhanced challenge and accomplishment.
They don't need to make it so 100% of the audience is able to complete all content.
2 things though. This is an MMO, anything they do in single player games doesn't matter and should be ignored. Second, I'm not saying they need to put out content that everyone can clear. The point is to have content that is accessible to everyone while having a very high skill ceiling so that better players can far excel worse players. Coil is an example of having too high of a wall for entry.
Also, case in point, sex sells and cat girls are sexy.
Tabris's MMO would be him and his fellow raiders parading around in litters and finery while the masses scratch around in rags building pyramids and sh*t in the background ha ha!
Demoskinos
Member
Cause some other duties have similar acc caps on them.
Hmm, so I get to parade around in finery? Is it sexy finery?
hum there is a sales on FF titles and more importantly on FF14 collector edition (EU PSN). After poking around it seems the upgrade program from PS3 to PS4 is still in place until March 31 ? So can I buy the PS3 version for cheap and upgrade for free to PS4 ? Oh boy if I can do that, it means I can play TT from work with remote play ! wait I'm not sure that's such a great idea...
Also completed MNK Zeta, god is it hideous I really need the upgraded mog weapon now...
Also completed MNK Zeta, god is it hideous
I really need the upgraded mog weapon now...But that content is meant for the raiding community? Why does everyone else need to do it? Why isn't it OK to have a small amount of content gated from your main audience to appease that community, especially when the majority of the content appeases the main audience only? Because reducing the wall of entry means you lose that raiding community.
They do need to maintain proportionality between time in development and applicability to the userbase, though. Setting the tiny final coil population as the target audience and then dumping resources into creating a version that appeals to only a small subsegment of that is a much worse return on their effort than creating a version of raids that would make the raid patches relevant to most of the userbase. Right now even-numbered patches are content light for the vast majority of players; fixing that makes a hell of a lot more sense than extending the gear treadmill for a tiny fraction of the population.
Story mode and current difficult caters to casuals and raiders. Current and savage caters to raiders and raiders.
95% of the time if I'm on DRG it's because I wanted to Elusive Jump. DRG's only new trait in the expansion should be something that removes the cooldown.
Ha ha! Yeah it's everything you could possibly want. If you are a raider I would totally advise you to sign up.
Ha ha! Yeah it's everything you could possibly want. If you are a raider I would totally advise you to sign up.
Shush, less talking and more pyramid building.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Likely because most people don't understand or research content other than Coil and just assume that because acc is on so much gear, that it's needed for everything.
This is honestly something they need to approach differently in the expac. Acc has either been an all or nothing stat in just about all mmos that have it(or had it), where it's either used in everything or it's not used at all and gotten rid of(like WoW).
No, you allow everyone in, you don't allow everyone to complete the most difficult version of it. The raiding community doesn't go away, they still have their goal. The point is to have more of the community involved. Hardcore PVPers will always destroy the lessar PVPers but everyone can enter. That's a better example.
That's exactly how it is now. People can enter Coil. Just a lot can't get to the most difficult versions (Final Coil, Savage).
No, they've made too many gates between frst coil and now. Thats the issue they have to address.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Why would they care about that, Blizzard doesn't care how quickly players world-first new WoW raids.
That's easy, the expansion is a content reset and you won't need to clear the old raids to start doing Alexander.
irfaanator
Banned
when legitimate story content is behind end game raiding. Then you as a developer should expect most ppl to clear it. Not the other way
Shush, less talking and more pyramid building.
Yeah I'd better get to it before you level up that whip.
Pellegri Testament
Member
And this is a problem when the content is gated behind an "attunement". Coil 1-5 do not have anything holding people back from doing it, which is why so many have seen it at this point. Where as Coil 6-9 is locked behind Twin and 10-13 is locked behind Nael, both of which are harder than the first few bosses in the newer content. The harder you make the attunement, the less people that end up seeing the new shit that so much effort was put into.
I understand they want things to be story focused and they want people to see everything in order. But at the same time, there comes a point where new content isn't worth the effort to make, when only a tiny fraction of subscribers are even able to see said new content. It's the reason why WoW added easier difficulties and dropped attunements, the scale of the raids they were making, just weren't worth the effort when 5-10%(or even less in Funwell's and Ulduar's case) of subscribers were even able to see or down anything.
A "story mode" or even just dropping attunements in general would solve this issue. You want to see the new content but aren't in a good enough group that can down the final boss of the old raid? Easy, just go in story mode and kill it, which will unlock the ability to do the new shit. Once the new content comes out, the old is not relevant anymore. Do not force people to have to clear the old content just because you want to try and tell a story that even less people will care about, than people who just want loot.
That doesn't solve the issue? Making the same mistakes during the life of 3.0 would be stupid.
Unknown Soldier
Member
The only mistake I see was purposely not nerfing Twin and Nael in T5 and T9 beyond letting players try to outgear them. You can't outgear oneshot mechanics and the fact that many players today can't clear T5 is proof that the Echo was no solution at all to letting players see all the raid content. Titan EX has the same problem, you can't outgear falling off the arena.
In many respects the Echo even makes things worse and not better when you're supposed to kill adds before DPSing the boss or the boss enrages and wipes everybody. I was farming Ifrit HM, Mog HM, and Ramuh HM for cards and I literally had to tell the party "KILL THE ADDS UNLESS YOU ENJOY WIPES" or at least 50% of the time people would just tunnel the Primal until he enraged and wiped everyone. You had to see people's reactions when Ifrit HM did his Hellfire and blew the party up, no one could believe they managed to wipe to Ifrit HM when 4 of the people in the group had "The Final Witness" as their titles.
In Alexander, they will actually need to nerf the last boss of each raid tier when the new tier is released so that oneshot mechanics don't oneshot anymore. Also they should just get rid of that Echo crap, it literally does nothing.
Pyros_Eien
Member
The echo is pretty helpful actually in skipping cooldown usage, efficient mana usage for healing or DPS checks. But they should indeed get rid of the one shot mechanics and it wouldn't be near as bad. On nael, if you remove the instant death walls, reduce divebomb damage and maybe remove meteor stacking damage, the fight would be a ton easier. On Twin just remove the wall and that's good enough. It's the wall that fucks everything up really, when you get divebombs nowadays you have plenty of health to survive, it's just you get divebombed into the wall and die instantly.
Well for one its a poor use of the companies resources, why spend money on content that only a small percentage of the audience will see as opposed to spending it on content that the majority of players will see? Its a bad idea at a base economic level. I dont see the problem with a "normal mode" raid for the average player who just wants to see the content or the story but isnt that into raiding and then a "hard mode" for more dedicated raiders.
tiggerkiddo
Member
If they want to really take the teeth off Twin, make Twisters just do a little damage instead of one shot. I have watched so many carries die because the new person took out quite a few people (Including the healers) with a well placed Twister.
Altered Juice
Member
mfw i got my Excalibur, queued up High Level Roulette into Sastasha hm and started missing attacks on the first boss.
.
tiggerkiddo
Member
I stand corrected on the accuracy issue thingy. I don't really play many mmo's...>_>
The Last Wizard
Member
Whoever on gaf is Alina Delgado, I'm standing next to your character in limsa lominsa and we could be long lost twins:,)
*hugs* forgiven :3
UpsideDownAce
Member
Honestly if you're a tank planning on doing final coil you shouldn't be relying on pants to get you to accuracy cap. Those dred pants are too op. Just use food or something to meet the cap for whatever content you're doing
tiggerkiddo
Member
Failed at getting a Shiva book, hopefully the Book of Spades will do for T10-12.
Pyros_Eien
Member
Eh, you can worry about how to hit accuracy cap with dreadwyrm pants once you get them. Planning your accuracy caps based on what's on dreadwyrm before you even step into final coil seems pretty pointless, especially since you could be clearing it for 3months and still not see several of the pieces, or not get them if the other tank does.
No one said Alexander would have a story mode either. I think at reveal (JP fanfest Keynote) Yoshida said that normal mode will be "more accessible" (using coil with echo as an example) and hard mode will be harder than the current Coil? Maybe, say, normal is at the extreme primals level? That'd be nice. Having a story mode at launch would probably undermine raiding a bit for a group of people because once they see the story they might not have incentive to do the raid again at all - story is one of the incentives to do the content after all and here story isn't just told through cutscenes but even through battle and set design itself (How cool was it that
?) Sorry, you're not entitled to see it just because you bought the game. If it's just faceroll tier with no rewards, well, they just created a bunch of useless instances again.
I honestly have a hard time believing they'd just create a faceroll version of the main raid. The whole normal and hard division came from the fact there's no "midcore" content, did it not? How you have Crystal Tower you can sleep through and then it's straight to raid-level (although I'd argue extreme primals fill that niche as none of them with the exception of Ramuh are all that hard or require coil level of team coordination).
That reddit data isn't a mistranslation of the source, but whether the source is legit is questionable. Supposedly those people got to ask some questions to Yoshida at the event.
And for the record I actually like T9 as a fight in its original form. Savage is just unfun however.
To expand on the "You can't see the story if you don't get good" issue a bit, a lot of content in the game requires large amount of effort to comprehensively complete, but nobody bitches about it as hard as they do about Coil. Why does nobody complain Kirin isn't just handed out? Why does nobody complain Lucis tools aren't handed out? Oh, but you don't need skill and coordination for that, so it's not a problem. Uh-huh. I remember playing this tough game, but then I encounter this hard boss fight and then I just quit and ask the developers to show me the end cutscene. Said no one ever. A goal to work towards that's demanding is a good thing to have even if not everybody will succeed. And it's not about showing off your achievement to others although I'm pretty sure there are people who find enjoyment of that, but about stimulating players of medium level to work towards something and improve. Spending devs' resources on making an encounter for "hardcore" isn't a good idea but spending even more to create a faceroll version of that encounter just so that people could see the story which they can watch on Youtube is fine? I don't follow.
And finally, Final Coil is not a starting point, it's the end point of a long journey. I'd hope T10 out of 13 would have more challenge than T1 of 13, no? Cleared T10 with a pick-up party, on Ultros! What else do you want, press 1 to win?
Twintania was actually one of the many Storms
I honestly have a hard time believing they'd just create a faceroll version of the main raid. The whole normal and hard division came from the fact there's no "midcore" content, did it not? How you have Crystal Tower you can sleep through and then it's straight to raid-level (although I'd argue extreme primals fill that niche as none of them with the exception of Ramuh are all that hard or require coil level of team coordination).
That reddit data isn't a mistranslation of the source, but whether the source is legit is questionable. Supposedly those people got to ask some questions to Yoshida at the event.
And for the record I actually like T9 as a fight in its original form. Savage is just unfun however.
To expand on the "You can't see the story if you don't get good" issue a bit, a lot of content in the game requires large amount of effort to comprehensively complete, but nobody bitches about it as hard as they do about Coil. Why does nobody complain Kirin isn't just handed out? Why does nobody complain Lucis tools aren't handed out? Oh, but you don't need skill and coordination for that, so it's not a problem. Uh-huh. I remember playing this tough game, but then I encounter this hard boss fight and then I just quit and ask the developers to show me the end cutscene. Said no one ever. A goal to work towards that's demanding is a good thing to have even if not everybody will succeed. And it's not about showing off your achievement to others although I'm pretty sure there are people who find enjoyment of that, but about stimulating players of medium level to work towards something and improve. Spending devs' resources on making an encounter for "hardcore" isn't a good idea but spending even more to create a faceroll version of that encounter just so that people could see the story which they can watch on Youtube is fine? I don't follow.
And finally, Final Coil is not a starting point, it's the end point of a long journey. I'd hope T10 out of 13 would have more challenge than T1 of 13, no? Cleared T10 with a pick-up party, on Ultros! What else do you want, press 1 to win?
UpsideDownAce
Member
I guess that's always how I've worked out my gear progression is to build around my most desired piece, that way as soon as I get it, I can use it. I would hate to have crit/det gear I couldn't use because I don't meet acc cap when I could be planning around that scenario the whole time. Of course if you aren't doing final coil, you should just get t9 acc cap for your class to do content like shiva ex and 2nd coil
tiggerkiddo
Member
Reminds me how I built a build with the allagan casting shoes...I have still not seen them after all this time.
Yes clearly the only options available are what we have now or press 1 to win, there couldnt possibly be any other options, no excluded middle there, no siree. Your examples arent great either, the most obvious difference between Kirin and Lucis tools and Coil is that the former are entirely dependent on the effort you as the individual put in. Barring terrible luck you can keep banging away at them and you'll get them, you're not beholden to anyone else to progress. On the other hand to progress through Coil you need seven other players to be as dedicated to it as you are, leaving aside the fact that players may not be able or have the time/schedule/etc. to form a static the simple fact is that one you can do more or less yourself the other you cant. Theres also a substantive difference between a vanity mount and what equates to a vanity crafting tool and content the size of coil. Also if you dont follow how expending resources on content that only a small percentage of your playerbase will see offers a worse return than spending resources on content the majority will see then you cant have thought about it very hard. And comparing watching something on YouTube vs seeing it in context as intended strikes me as a false equivalency.
There are plenty of approaches that would serve both the casual and "hardcore" raider with no particular impact on either.
T7 is slowly teaching me to hate DF more than what should be physically possible.
I mean, it wouldn't have, and I actually just had a few decent runs there...but then I got into a group that got mad at me. As MT.
You cant screw up MT on T7 ;_; (the reason was because I moved the boss rather than stand in red for the last few percent and someone threw a petrify my way, when in reality that should never really happen when I move inwards)
I mean, it wouldn't have, and I actually just had a few decent runs there...but then I got into a group that got mad at me. As MT.
You cant screw up MT on T7 ;_; (the reason was because I moved the boss rather than stand in red for the last few percent and someone threw a petrify my way, when in reality that should never really happen when I move inwards)
Pyros_Eien
Member
I guess that's a way to do it, the issue lies in the fact there's no good pants for tanks anyway other than the super high accuracy ironworks. What else are you going to use, the 44parry 33skillspeed demon pants? So you might as well make use of the accuracy and use non accuracy food until you get dreadwyrm and replace maybe one piece of gear with an accuracy inferior one+lava toad legs. Hell by then you might get an ironworks weapon or dreadwyrm gloves, which would cover your accuracy needs from the loss of pants anyway. And if you don't have poetics, HA is the better option unless you have 2-3millions to spend on crafted pants just so you can not have accuracy, which would force you into suboptimal choices for other slots to match the accuracy of the pants anyway.
See FFXI did it right.
You had graded content that went from easy (story missions) to medium (expansion missions) to impossible (fights like Absolute Virtue). There was content that literally no one cleared (until much later) and content that everyone cleared, and everything in between. This ensures there is something for everyone to always strive for.
That's the big issue with this game. There's nothing to strive for, for a lot of the gamers.
You had graded content that went from easy (story missions) to medium (expansion missions) to impossible (fights like Absolute Virtue). There was content that literally no one cleared (until much later) and content that everyone cleared, and everything in between. This ensures there is something for everyone to always strive for.
That's the big issue with this game. There's nothing to strive for, for a lot of the gamers.
Pyros_Eien
Member
There's Crystal tower for the easy content, old coil for medium and newest coil for hard. The only thing sticking out are T5 and T9 at the end of each old coil being way harder than the rest of the old coil stuff. Assuming they were nerfed the same way the others were nerfed, that'd be something.
Granted you can argue that medium should be its own category of content and not just the leftovers from hard content, but having a normal/hard switch on coil wouldn't make it any different.
It is most likely the way they'd go I would assume, WoW does that already and it works pretty well, people can clear LFR raids even with complete idiots(though there's still a level of idiocy so low that it is apparently not possible to clear it all the time), more experienced raiders do flex or whatever it is and then the real hardcore raiders do heroic or whatever it's called nowadays. And it's all the same content, with maybe a few additional mechanics and obviously different numbers tuning.
To be honest, if they were to release new scaling raid content every 3months instead of alternating between hardcore and easy mode content, it'd probably be better for everyone. That'd probably mean the removal of 24man content, but I couldn't care less if they do that.
RellyRell28
Banned
So for the Shantotto card can you get it during this tournament or does the 15 match rule stop you from doing tourney matches.
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