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Fire Emblem Fates |OT| Nohr does what Hoshidon't

Zebetite

Banned
Effie can absolutely double, and that's not what's important about Effie anyways. Her speed growth is abnormally good in general, which means it's much harder for her to get doubled, and she can do it without picking up an awful skill like Wary Fighter taking up a precious skill slot. Charlotte, Nyx, and Arthur are all about as bad (as units), sure, but I'm singling him out because Benny's viability is slightly more contested. It shouldn't be.

His personal is way worse than Effie's, his only viable class is General, which is pretty poor compared to Great Knight even when you include the doubled weakness on that class, and the game itself pushes you toward leaning on Effie so much in the early game, there's no reason you have to catch him up on Conquest. Certainly not the map you even get him in (and in fairness, Charlotte's not very good there either). And certainly not when the game gives you more than enough sturdy units with much better class access/bases/growths.

And speed is absolutely, overall, the best stat in the game in terms of what it does for a character. It pushes their damage output, minimizes what enemies can do to them, and on top of that affects their dodge rate too. Every class in the game benefits from speed in more or less the same way. There's a reason why pair-up bots that give high speed are pretty universally considered good at what they do.

I'm not trying to pretend Benny's a particularly good unit or anything but taking issue specifically with the "skill slots are too valuable to waste on wary fighter" line of thinking. I mean, generally, you're right, it's a weak skill. But CQ is a resource-limited game and you can't afford the gold to flip everyone into new classes nor can you afford everyone the exp to get skills in those classes. If you just look at the Knight line and its skills (6 Total), is Benny really going to miss +2 Defense to bandaid his horrible speed?

Idk, I've never gotten the "dictate what units people ought to use based on these specific criteria" line of thinking. It's valuable to have discussions about what units are ~objectively the best~ in a given FE game but the minute it crosses over into "don't use this unit in any playthrough because I said so" I get the fuck outta dodge. If someone wants to use Benny it's their prerogative and if that's the case it can be just as valuable to speculate how to make Benny work /okay/ as it is to speculate what team will carry you through the game with the most ease.

So I'll do that open speculation for everyone: if you wanna use Benny, give him Wary Fighter. It was basically made for him.
 
Effie has good speed growth (50%) as a knight but she starts with a loltastic base of 5.

depending on the sadistic rng, she might be either at the point where you needs or doesn't need wary fighter
 

Shinypogs

Member
I prefer Effie but I found Benny to be great in my 2nd conquest run, especially vs ninjas. Plus his son was a good pair up for velouria.

There will always be differing opinions on best value for time and effort in games like these but I imagine no character is totally unviable with a little work. Has the FE series ever had a completely unusable character?
 

Moonlight

Banned
This is going to be a very silly game of 'nuh uh and uh huh' but Effie can double anything inside her weight class assuming she hasn't been screwed over by RNG, and with a good pair-up bot, can handle most things (if not double than consistently stay below the doubling threshold) a head above that. There's no delusion here.

I'm not trying to pretend Benny's a particularly good unit or anything but taking issue specifically with the "skill slots are too valuable to waste on wary fighter" line of thinking. I mean, generally, you're right, it's a weak skill. But CQ is a resource-limited game and you can't afford the gold to flip everyone into new classes nor can you afford everyone the exp to get skills in those classes. If you just look at the Knight line and its skills (6 Total), is Benny really going to miss +2 Defense to bandaid his horrible speed?
I mean, if you like him and want his supports, you should use him. I said as much, and it's the golden rule for any FE game. But if you're looking strictly at good or even especially okay units, units you'd use given all things equal, he's not one. He comes in too late relative to an existing unit in a role, his niche is too specific (moving wall), and Conquest is choked with great tanks that require less investment and scale better in a lot of different regards.

The path to making Benny 'work' isn't hard. You level him up, you class him into General, and at the end you jump him into Great Knight. Pair him up with someone good like Charlotte. But that's a lot of time hanging around in a mediocre class picking up not so hot skills. Effie can immediately jump into Great Knight and do work, Benny can't. The implications of needing to immediately move into General and wait fifteen more levels for a reasonably impactful skill are serious, unless you want to Second Seal him almost immediately, which is also naturally pretty expensive, especially at the first opportunity you could do so.

You make the game harder for yourself by picking Benny. So if someone asks for good units to use in Conquest, and I specifically mean, good units to use, I would advise against him.

I'll concede that, yeah, it's hard for some units in Conquest to reach the point where skill slot caps are supremely relevant and you can't afford to class change everyone for fully optimized layouts, but how characters naturally curve is important (Effie picks up Luna at the same time Benny gets the skill that stops him from getting owned), and even playing with a vague XP handicap, I still managed to hit the point where it became a consideration. Effie also benefits from this from being available so early and generally being a huge magnet for XP in general given maps like Conquest 10. I'm not gonna say don't use him at all no matter what, but I'm also not gonna say all units are made equal.
 
Please elaborate.

In certain chokepoints, you want to minimize the damage from enemy hordes, so you are better off not destroying all of them. You can only take so much damage.

On child Paralogues, Speed is actually crucial. If you can't double enemies there, you are screwed because those maps often force you to clear them fast.

On main story maps, Speed is totally not as important as you think it is.

the problem is where you're plugging chokepoints with units that can't take multiple hits, because think about it, if Benny could double and ORKO things while keeping his defense he would obviously be a far better unit

Effie was extremely valuable on my recent run, but she does not double enemies. Let's not become delusional.

and no, Effie can totally double slower enemies, learn to stack stat boosts
 
There are instances where units need to double enemies, and instances where they will not and should not.

I totally know there are ways to make slow units fast. I learned this by doing child Paralogues on Lunatic. There were a few setups that required Xander to clear a certain room/area in one turn, and I accomplished that by giving him a Speed Tonic, A+ Kaze pair up, and Azura Dance.

I never argued that Benny was a great unit in the first place, and I already stated that Effie was better. I just found issue that you singled him out.

He's just not as bad as you think he is, and actually contributes more than some other units.
 
I'm surprised that people here are saying Charlotte is bad. She is definitely in my top 5 units for Conquest. She's among the strongest fighters I have and her skill and speed are pretty good. She has bad defense and garbage resistance, but it doesn't matter much if she is 1-shotting everyone anyways (and her good skill means she's not missing often), and her humongous HP allows her to usually take at least one hit even against mages.

Effie is still the MVP of the group, though. Outside of Corrin + Royals, of course.

Status report: Currently in Conquest 19. Doesn't look too bad if I position my units well enough. I only reset once due to a flub (Beruka is surprisingly weak at this point, may be time to bench her after I marry her to Benny). Also, when Sophie came in she was immediately better than her father in every stat, so Silas is going bye-bye for the rest of my playthrough.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I'd say Effie is at least better than Leo, as far as royals go. He's gotten better for me, but even as a strategist his speed and magic both leave something to be desired, and his skill isn't all that good either so he doesn't even hit reliably.

Maybe Elise too. She's a bog standard staff user. Good magic and speed after promotion allow for some decent damage even with low weapon ranks, but she gets 1HKO'd by a strong breeze making her a big liability later in the game. Her skill is lacking too, so she gets her fair share of misses.
 
I'd say Effie is at least better than Leo, as far as royals go. He's gotten better for me, but even as a strategist his speed and magic both leave something to be desired, and his skill isn't all that good either so he doesn't even hit reliably.

Maybe Elise too. She's a bog standard staff user. Good magic and speed after promotion allow for some decent damage even with low weapon ranks, but she gets 1HKO'd by a strong breeze making her a big liability later in the game. Her skill is lacking too, so she gets her fair share of misses.

My Elise is a beast against other mages. She's top 3 in her resistance stat among everyone else in my group. I think only Leo and Kaze have more, and even then just barely.
 
I'd say Effie is at least better than Leo, as far as royals go. He's gotten better for me, but even as a strategist his speed and magic both leave something to be desired, and his skill isn't all that good either so he doesn't even hit reliably.

Maybe Elise too. She's a bog standard staff user. Good magic and speed after promotion allow for some decent damage even with low weapon ranks, but she gets 1HKO'd by a strong breeze making her a big liability later in the game. Her skill is lacking too, so she gets her fair share of misses.

Leo has a Sorcerer with Nosferatu can block an army on his own. Apart from ninjas of course...Damn ninjas!
 

PK Gaming

Member
Charlotte joins at level 10 with abysmal bulk and shaky accuracy (even if you take off Gamble). It is possible to make her a workable combat unit, but you need baby her and constantly feed her XP since she's trailing behind everyone else in levels. Literally the worst part about using her as a combat unit is screwing yourself out of top tier stat booster. Because goddamn, her pair up bonuses are absolutely ridiculous.

I'd say Effie is at least better than Leo, as far as royals go. He's gotten better for me, but even as a strategist his speed and magic both leave something to be desired, and his skill isn't all that good either so he doesn't even hit reliably.

Maybe Elise too. She's a bog standard staff user. Good magic and speed after promotion allow for some decent damage even with low weapon ranks, but she gets 1HKO'd by a strong breeze making her a big liability later in the game. Her skill is lacking too, so she gets her fair share of misses.

Did you forge a Lightning tome for him yet? That and Speed support is pretty much all he needs to stomp enemies on Conquest.
 

Moonlight

Banned
The problem with Charlotte is an issue of investment, IMO. She's very hard to feed in her intro map due to the fact that either end of the map will destroy her if you leave her exposed for one reason or another, and by then you should already have Camilla and Beruka anyways who are tougher, faster, and stronger and presumably better at using their axes. Once you're through the intro map, she's already kind of stumbling out of the starting line and how hard it is to justify keeping her around kind of compounds. At the high end, she'll do dumb damage, but at a certain point, sometimes you don't need to be that dumb. It's especially harder to justify her since, like, she's so good right off the bat in the sense she gives you super relevant and good pair-up stats, and a lot of them.

Elise is your best first generation magic user and I won't back down from that. Her durability shouldn't be a problem given her high mobility and assuming fairly good positioning. Leo's about as good as Effie. Better rounded and has naturally kind of amazing growths, though he's less high impact when he joins compared to Camilla or Xander.

He's just not as bad as you think he is, and actually contributes more than some other units.
He's not unusable, certainly. He's just hard to justify in a lot of regards and subbing him with Effie is strictly a trade down in a lot of regards. He shouldn't be a question where your option is him or Effie if you care about making the game easier for yourself. Conquest has a lot of variance in terms of units (very much unlike Awakening in that regard) and I don't think being a better fit than, say, Nyx, the blind sorceress, is a great case to include him compared to the sorts of units you can throw into any situation you've thought about for like ten seconds and feel good about it. Benny's sole defining characteristic is that he's a huge tank, and he's a worse one than Xander, Effie, Beruka, Keaton, and arguably Leo.
 
I'd say Effie is at least better than Leo, as far as royals go. He's gotten better for me, but even as a strategist his speed and magic both leave something to be desired, and his skill isn't all that good either so he doesn't even hit reliably.

Maybe Elise too. She's a bog standard staff user. Good magic and speed after promotion allow for some decent damage even with low weapon ranks, but she gets 1HKO'd by a strong breeze making her a big liability later in the game. Her skill is lacking too, so she gets her fair share of misses.

Leo's offense is perfectly fine, and lol at him not having enough magic of all things (???)

like I get the impression that this thread in general just isn't using pairup to boost stats

I guess I haven't really ran into those issues since I was all about having a balanced team up until like the last chapter and got her to be promoted to a Hero by Chapter 19. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You know that's really late right?
 
I guess I haven't really ran into those issues with Charlotte since I was all about having a balanced team up until like Chapter 18 and got her to be promoted to a Hero by Chapter 19. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Zebetite

Banned
Leo's offense is perfectly fine, and lol at him not having enough magic of all things (???)

like I get the impression that this thread in general just isn't using pairup to boost stats

i'm a dirty attack stance scrub because pairup is for dorks and leo's combat was still a-oh-fuckin-kay by me

he might not be a literal god like most of the other royals but he's still better than virtually any rank and file unit you'll ever get
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Leo's offense is perfectly fine, and lol at him not having enough magic of all things (???)

like I get the impression that this thread in general just isn't using pairup to boost stats

He's a level 12 strategist with 25 base magic. I don't that's particularly good.


I probably should use tonics though. The only temp stat booster I've used was a rainbow thing on Corrin to play with Ryoma.
 
I'd say Effie is at least better than Leo, as far as royals go. He's gotten better for me, but even as a strategist his speed and magic both leave something to be desired, and his skill isn't all that good either so he doesn't even hit reliably.

Maybe Elise too. She's a bog standard staff user. Good magic and speed after promotion allow for some decent damage even with low weapon ranks, but she gets 1HKO'd by a strong breeze making her a big liability later in the game. Her skill is lacking too, so she gets her fair share of misses.

No. You're greatly underestimating Leo's mixed defenses. Leo is damn essential on Lunatic difficulty, and there are certain maps I could not have completed without him.

Effie is absolutely necessary early game, and we can all agree on that. But other units will step in once the game progresses.

She can still be useful late game, but she does eventually become replaceable/benchable
 
He's a level 12 strategist with 25 base magic. I don't that's not particularly good.


I probably should use tonics though. The only temp stat booster I've used was a rainbow thing on Corrin to play with Ryoma.

level 12 Leo as a Dark Knight averages 26.5 magic, if reclassed to Strategist immediately averages 28 magic

but even with 25 magic that is definitely good enough with a Felicia/Nyx pairup+tonic
 

Moonlight

Banned
I'm gonna hit the pause button to say that Elise is a goddess of utility that only Azura could possibly contest, and if Elise explodes with a stiff breeze (and really, she shouldn't) than Azura disintegrates with light nudging, so in the end I think Elise wins the round overall. She has an amazing supporting Personal with tons of synergy with her staff, insane magic growth (which of course means both great heals and amazing damage), and a relevant Rally moving into the late-game where magic becomes more predominant in enemy comps. Hitting level 15 in conjunction with her Personal and, though more situational, Demoiselle means that she can basically convert any formation into an unfuckable death phalanx.

And Leo, much like Xander, already starts in his most effective class.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I'm gonna hit the pause button to say that Elise is a goddess of utility that only Azura could possibly contest, and if Elise explodes with a stiff breeze (and really, she shouldn't) than Azura disintegrates with light nudging, so in the end I think Elise wins the round overall. She has an amazing supporting Personal with tons of synergy with her staff, insane magic growth (which of course means both great heals and amazing damage), and a relevant Rally moving into the late-game where magic becomes more predominant in enemy comps. Hitting level 15 in conjunction with her Personal and, though more situational, Demoiselle means that she can basically convert any formation into an unfuckable death phalanx.

And Leo, much like Xander, already starts in his most effective class.

Effie might be my best overall character. She's basically Xander but with more base speed and strength (and admittedly a bit higher level). So saying Elise doesn't quite stack up to her is not exactly the most negative thing in the world.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Hey, I'm just saying, Elise is godlike. I think she compares more favourably to Effie in that as big of a stan as I am for her, you can fill her role with other units like Xander or Keaton later on. Elise and Leo are the only two good magic users you get in Conquest if you aren't picking up Ophelia, and Elise fills a way more specific niche in that regard.
 

CazTGG

Member
Now that (most of) the extra class DLC is out, Charlotte's main issue is pretty easily resolved by plugging in Aether via an item that grants the skill without the need to change classes. Astoundingly high HP and critical hit chance guarantees she can take a hit, coupled with a great skill stat and growth that makes her highly likely to activate it or, if you'd prefer a higher chance of her being able to recover health, Sol in another slot. Give her a Killer Axe and she's golden since she'll recover almost, if not, all damage from a critical Sol/Aether.

Also, magic in general isn't very good in Fates, but Elise is serviceable, if very, very vulnerable due to her low HP and Defense growths. Definitely want to keep her away from the front of your army.

EDIT: I just remembered an exploit on Chapter 13 that makes it pretty easy to level up anyone to at least a promoted level 1 character if you have enough time: Wait until there's 1-2 enemies left on the map, then give whichever character you want to raise a ranged weapon that prevents them from critical'ng foes, following up an attack or activating skills. Stand in the middle of the three healing spaces while moving the rest of your units out of harm's way and wait for them to attack whichever character you chose. When they get low on health [the enemy] should move to one of the two healing spots to recover their health before trying to hit you again. Since you're both recovering lost HP, they'll just keep hitting you (maybe, the spots make it more difficult to be hit with an attack) and you'll keep recovering health as you quickly level up without any worry of either unit dying. I did this long enough to get Mozu to promote and then some after about a half-hour or so. For an extra bonus, have Azura dance to level her up as much as possible and pair them up with different characters to gain supports.

I prefer Effie but I found Benny to be great in my 2nd conquest run, especially vs ninjas. Plus his son was a good pair up for velouria.

There will always be differing opinions on best value for time and effort in games like these but I imagine no character is totally unviable with a little work. Has the FE series ever had a completely unusable character?

There's a good amount that are outclassed in some capacity (In Fates, the first that comes to mind is Takumi being better than Setsuna in almost every regard, ditto Effie for Benny), but there aren't many that I can think of off the top of my head. Even Micaiah, terrible as she is, has a bit of a glass canon quality to her and can heal people pretty well once she gets promoted. There's a few laguz in Radiant Dawn which become non-viable once you get the royal laguz but that's about it.

Magic is excellent in Conquest (barring Ninja Hell). It's even better in Birthright which loads you up on broke as fuck scrolls. Don't confuse the fact your initial mages suck with magic being bad.

Going to have to disagree (except for the Birthright part, it is much better on that path): Putting aside individual units and their viability (Odin as a mage is just...no, use him til' you can get his kid), magic is far more generic and less helpful a weapon that it has been in previous games. Part of that stems from them condensing the weapon into "magic sword weapon class and also one dark magic spell" on the Conquest route rather than the more varied and diverse set for light, anima and dark magic, both in terms of the three types' strengths and weaknesses, but also with each having unique tomes to use like Luna or the potential criticals granted by the light tomes. Say what you want about Awakening, at least its magic was a little more unique with the various wind, thunder and fire spells along with some dark spells and all of one (admittedly powerful) light tome. On the Birthright path, they're made a little more unique due to the various boons scrolls can give you but as for using the weapon in Conquest, sorry but it's just not as useful as the weapon use to be, not that the weak wielders help.

Seriously, the 1st generation of magically inclined characters are terrible, save for Elise who has her own issues on Conquest.
 
I prefer Effie but I found Benny to be great in my 2nd conquest run, especially vs ninjas. Plus his son was a good pair up for velouria.

There will always be differing opinions on best value for time and effort in games like these but I imagine no character is totally unviable with a little work. Has the FE series ever had a completely unusable character?

Oh yeah. There have been a few. Standouts include Fiona and Gareth in RD and Wendy and Sophia in Binding Blade.

As for magic units, I've found that Leo and surprisingly enough, Dark Knight Odin to be my go-to Magic users in my Conquest run-through. Elise is good but largely held back by her shitty defense and HP
 

Moonlight

Banned
Also, magic in general isn't very good in Fates, but Elise is serviceable, if very, very vulnerable due to her low HP and Defense growths. Definitely want to keep her away from the front of your army.
Magic is excellent in Conquest (barring Ninja Hell). It's even better in Birthright which loads you up on broke as fuck scrolls. Don't confuse the fact your initial mages suck with magic being bad.
 

Okamid3n

Member
Playing Lunatic Conquest, I wanted to spice things up and I allowed the following things :

DLC classes once I reach level 20,
Bonus items from visit points/battle points (I have 500 visit points and 200 battle points).

To counter this, I thought it'd be enough to restrict myself to not doing paralogues and castle invasions...

...I was wrong, the game is really quite easy with the bonus items and dlc classes.

Oh well, it's probably more fun that way! Today's witch class is completely ridiculous, though, the warp is so good. It's really fun, so I'll keep using it even if it breaks the challenge further.
 
Playing Lunatic Conquest, I wanted to spice things up and I allowed the following things :

DLC classes once I reach level 20,
Bonus items from visit points/battle points (I have 500 visit points and 200 battle points).

To counter this, I thought it'd be enough to restrict myself to not doing paralogues and castle invasions...

...I was wrong, the game is really quite easy with the bonus items and dlc classes.

Oh well, it's probably more fun that way! Today's witch class is completely ridiculous, though, the warp is so good. It's really fun, so I'll keep using it even if it breaks the challenge further.

Lunatic Conquest is well balanced compared to Lunatic Awakening which forced you to low man. Lunatic Conquest be frustrating on late-game maps, but it's fun! It is wonderful when you figure out how to finally get past a troublesome chapter. Chapter 10 is the hardest early game chapter, but mid-game is a little more straightforward.

My Lunatic run allowed Castle Items and Castle battles for completing supports, but I didn't actually grind. I only have 300 Visit points and 260 Battle points, so I don't even have access to any of the truly broken items!

In Awakening, Lunatic+ was a truly broken difficulty and basically required DLC. Conquest Lunatic can beaten without any DLC.
 

MegaPanda

Member
After benching Shura in BR and stealing his boots in CQ, I'm actually tempted to use him in Revelations. Maybe I'll just grind the rest of my units out of mediocrity
 

champloo

Member
I'm surprised that people here are saying Charlotte is bad. She is definitely in my top 5 units for Conquest. She's among the strongest fighters I have and her skill and speed are pretty good. She has bad defense and garbage resistance, but it doesn't matter much if she is 1-shotting everyone anyways (and her good skill means she's not missing often), and her humongous HP allows her to usually take at least one hit even against mages.

Charlotte has the most kills on my run so she is obviously viable as a combat unit. I'll admit some effort is needed before she becomes good on her own. Her pair up bonus is too good to give up as well.
Her best class is probably Berserker though. She does hilarious damage as one (50x2 with 50% crit rate by Endgame)

Speaking of Elise, I don't think she is that irreplaceable, definitely not as important as Effie on my run. Felicia is better as a support unit, and as a magic user, she is not really better than Nyx since she is staff-locked until promotion.
 

Azuran

Banned
LMAO some of the join levels in Revelation are so stupidly low that it makes units useless right from the get go. I can tell most my favorites will be screwed and I'll have no choice but to grind for hours because I'll probably want to use them.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Seriously, the 1st generation of magically inclined characters are terrible, save for Elise who has her own issues on Conquest.

That's not true. Leo and Mag!Corrin are ridiculously competent as magic users on Conquest, and Nyx a mediocre but usable unit (with effort). I'm not sure why you're singling out Elise as the best magic user when her tomes start at E-rank. Also, I don't agree at all with your 2nd assertion either. The removal of anima/light magic didn't nerf magic, it was the general cuts to base damage, added penalities and increased costs on tomes that weakened magic. That said, Magic is still quite useful on Conquest since 1-2 range is amazing and targeting the general lower Res stat makes it easier to kill enemies.

Also your point Awakening having more unique magic is simply not true. The elemental tomes in Awakening were identical, save for differences in power and accuracy. Magic is far more unique in Fates since there legitimate pros and cons to using pretty much any tome. Nosferatu significantly improves survivability, but its combat ability is poor. Mjolnir is a crit machine but its base damage is weak and it lowers your avoid. Lightning lets you attack consecutively but it lowers your stats after use. And so on.
 

Xenoflare

Member
LMAO some of the join levels in Revelation are so stupidly low that it makes units useless right from the get go. I can tell most my favorites will be screwed and I'll have no choice but to grind for hours because I'll probably want to use them.

It just confused me, units like Hayato proves that IS WAS thinking about giving units more levels to compensate join time but then you have Odin and Nyx.

Oh god Nyx, level 9 Dark Mage and there is Shura as a Level 10 prepromote.

uh
 
LMAO some of the join levels in Revelation are so stupidly low that it makes units useless right from the get go. I can tell most my favorites will be screwed and I'll have no choice but to grind for hours because I'll probably want to use them.

It's pretty hilarious that I have to bench Elise in Revelation, since she is practically a staple on Conquest. Sakura's still excellent at the healing role, so it's not a huge deal.

I am using Shura as my lockpicker, since he is massively stronger than the other Locktouch units.

Overall, I just can't help but use Ryoma and other royals to break the game. I just don't want to grind the other units to get them caught up.
 

Moonlight

Banned
That's not true. Leo and Mag!Corrin are ridiculously competent as magic users on Conquest, and Nyx a mediocre but usable unit (with effort). I'm not sure why you're singling out Elise as the best magic user when her tomes start at E-rank.
I don't think Corrin's exactly a fair thing to add since Corrin will fill basically any role in the army you want them to. But yes, Mag Corrin wrecks.

Elise absolutely is the best (first gen) magic user, though. She has the highest relevant growths with the highest relative bases (from join time), and the fact that she starts at E-rank tomes is... honestly, like, completely fine. E-rank tomes will still blow up anyone liable to be blown up with magic as long as there's enough stats to compensate, and Elise will almost always have enough stats. And all she needs to hit is C-rank and you officially have enough ranks in tomes to use essentially every vanilla tome in the game worth using. Leo's good because of his general versatility, his unique tome isn't actually that good (and the skill trigger is lol) and his magic is good but not spectacular, and all of that blends together into a dude you can generally fit into anything.

She's absolutely waaaaaaaaay better than Nyx too, as a magic user. Didn't realize I'd have to explain this, and a lot of it doesn't even have to do with Elise being that much better and more Nyx just being that much worse. Being staff locked till promotion is irrelevant, because magic isn't actually good until a little after Elise typically promotes (around chapter 16 or 17, unless you've been heal farming, then perhaps earlier than that even). It's actually way better for her because she can safely and reasonably efficiently build experience whereas with Nyx or Odin or whoever you'd need to almost universally put yourself in a worse position just to properly feed them. Nyx being able to use tomes before Elise doesn't matter when there's no reason to really use tomes during that space of time (and Nyx generally just having a pretty poor stat spread), and the fact that the game throws shitloads of ninjas and generally high res units at you up to that point compounds how bad she is. She doesn't even get the benefit (unlike Odin) of having a ton of stat boosters to pump her relevant weakness, because you get a lot less Secret Books to patch her abysmal Skill (and therefore, her hit rate).

Vanilla first-gen mages in Conquest are like... Elise > Leo >>> Odin (with Spirit Dust) > Nyx. Felicia with the Flame Shuriken helps smooth it all out, too.
 

Shinypogs

Member
Lets say I want to use my character as a pairup partner and eventually spouse for Nyx next time I play conquest ( so sad I'll have to be male that run, I really do love being female and male kanna seems way cooler ) the idea would be to pick the skill boon and a class that gives skill boosts during pairup to shore up her low skill correct?

Alternatively if I want to stay female and marry Odin ( he's probably gonna get stuck as my pairup partner in that case or benched after s rank is gained) do I need to go +magic boon for ophelia's sake or can she handle another build as a mom as long as I don't directly contribute to worsening her weakest growths?

Also if I want to be Soleil's mom in yet another run are there any character builds that are going to completely ruin her?

I should be getting burnout from playing all the versions on varying difficulties back to back but instead all I want to do is try new builds and use characters I left benched in previous playthroughs.
 
Charlotte has the most kills on my run so she is obviously viable as a combat unit. I'll admit some effort is needed before she becomes good on her own. Her pair up bonus is too good to give up as well.
Her best class is probably Berserker though. She does hilarious damage as one (50x2 with 50% crit rate by Endgame)

I'm keeping her as a Hero for now since she's more in need of better Skill/Speed growths than Strength growths, plus the extra defense doesn't hurt, either. I'll probably change her to Berserker at level 15 (if she even gets that far; the only unit in my Birthright playthrough to reach level 15 as a promoted class was Corrin, and that was during Endgame).
 
*lot of words*

ok, two things:
1. Elise vs Leo isn't about who has better combat (hint: it's Leo cause he has better (aka existent) bulk), it's whether Elise's staffbotting and general support is more valuable than Leo's good but not essential combat (cause he joins past the earlygame and he's not one of the big 3 aka Corrin/Camilla/Xander).
2. Brynhildr doesn't offer much over regular tomes compared to the other royal weapons vs swords/bows, true, but this is merely an indication that tomes are a good weapon type. Seriously, it's a 10 mt 1-2 range weapon that hits resistance (Flame Shuriken has 9, Levin Sword/Bolt Naginata have 11 and the latter two especially are good). Actually though:

+2 Iron Yumi: 13 mt, 72 hit/Fujin Yumi: 14 mt, 70 hit, 5 crit, 10 avoid, reduces terrain costs
+2 Thunder: 9 mt, 82 hit/Brynhildr: 10 mt, 80 hit, 5 crit, 10 crit avoid, hits resistance

Thunder>Iron Yumi obviously, and Brynhildr>Fujin Yumi when comparing them directly instead of to other weapons of their type

hell let's even throw in Raijinto/Siegfried, while Brynhildr is worse than both it's much closer to them than to Fujin Yumi:

Raijinto: 15 mt (effectively), 80 hit, 5 crit, 10 avoid
Siegfried: 11 mt, 80 hit, 5 crit, 10 crit avoid, +4 defense

as far as how good magic is in each route, in Conquest you still have Horse Spirit/Lightning/Calamity Gate (although the Hoshido scrolls require Ophelia's paralogue), in fact magic is technically better in Conquest than in Birthright because in the latter you have no good magic users except maybe Corrin while here you have Leo+Elise attack stance chip (and hell Camilla can even use tomes early on)

Literally the only usable tomes at E is forged Fire, which admittedly does decent damage, but it's still nothing to write home about, and D rank is also very underwhelming as well.

whoa slow down there, Horse Spirit is D rank

(although if you don't do Ophelia's paralogue yeah it's C rank for Lightning)
 

PK Gaming

Member
Elise absolutely is the best (first gen) magic user, though. She has the highest relevant growths with the highest relative bases (from join time), and the fact that she starts at E-rank tomes is... honestly, like, completely fine. E-rank tomes will still blow up anyone liable to be blown up with magic as long as there's enough stats to compensate, and Elise will almost always have enough stats. And all she needs to hit is C-rank and you officially have enough ranks in tomes to use essentially every vanilla tome in the game worth using. Leo's good because of his general versatility, his unique tome isn't actually that good (and the skill trigger is lol) and his magic is good but not spectacular, and all of that blends together into a dude you can generally fit into anything.

I disagree, 100%. Elise starts out stafflocked, which means she's gaining EXP at a considerable lower pace than combat units (unless you promote early, which weakens her combat ability. Her skill growth is bad too). Literally the only usable tomes at E is forged Fire, which admittedly does decent damage, but it's still nothing to write home about, and D rank is also very underwhelming. It takes an immense amount of fighting to build that up from E to C, which sucks because you're diverting EXP from units that want it). Arm scrolls are a thing, but there's absolutely no reason to give them to her when the competition for them is fierce.

Elise is incredible because she's a medic on wheels, not because she can (eventually) nuke things with magic. She provides consistent Freeze/Enfeeble/etc support from the beginning, and gains light combat utility later on, but should almost always be on support duty. She absolutely does not compare to Leo, who has an infinitely better start than she does, an actual enemy phase, and has access to solid support options like Felicia or Adventurer!Nyx that makes him noticeably better in combat. Like, I can't even think of a character that really benefits combat Elise, and it's a massive waste to give her a pair up bot when she should be on staff duty.

She's absolutely waaaaaaaaay better than Nyx too, as a magic user. Didn't realize I'd have to explain this, and a lot of it doesn't even have to do with Elise being that much better and more Nyx just being that much worse. Being staff locked till promotion is irrelevant, because magic isn't actually good until a little after Elise typically promotes (around chapter 16 or 17, unless you've been heal farming, then perhaps earlier than that even). It's actually way better for her because she can safely and reasonably efficiently build experience whereas with Nyx or Odin or whoever you'd need to almost universally put yourself in a worse position just to properly feed them. Nyx being able to use tomes before Elise doesn't matter when there's no reason to really use tomes during that space of time (and Nyx generally just having a pretty poor stat spread), and the fact that the game throws shitloads of ninjas and generally high res units at you up to that point compounds how bad she is. She doesn't even get the benefit (unlike Odin) of having a ton of stat boosters to pump her relevant weakness, because you get a lot less Secret Books to patch her abysmal Skill (and therefore, her hit rate).

Elise has the potential to be better, but it's a different story in practice. I'm going to refute the claim that Magic "becomes" good after a certain point straight up, because Magic is always good. It's just in Nyx's case, you can't count on her to one round enemies until she gains a speed lead (Mag!Corrin and Leo are pretty much always kicking ass with magic). In any case, Nyx isn't a particularly good unit, but you can make her decent with favoritism. (The same kind favoritism that grinds Elise out of E-rank tomes).

Vanilla first-gen mages in Conquest are like... Elise > Leo >>> Odin (with Spirit Dust) > Nyx. Felicia with the Flame Shuriken helps smooth it all out, too.

I'd rank them like

Mag!Corrin >> Leo >>>>>> Nyx > Odin > Elise.

Odin is suckish, but he has the benefit of having amazing support options (Like Nyx, Felicia and Elise herself)

In the end, there's no real reason to go out of your way to make Elise combat ready. She should be using her staff at every opportunity to build her staff rank, since she's your premier staff user, not trying to build her tome rank in order to fight when there are so many better combat units.
 

champloo

Member
She's absolutely waaaaaaaaay better than Nyx too, as a magic user. Didn't realize I'd have to explain this, and a lot of it doesn't even have to do with Elise being that much better and more Nyx just being that much worse. Being staff locked till promotion is irrelevant, because magic isn't actually good until a little after Elise typically promotes (around chapter 16 or 17, unless you've been heal farming, then perhaps earlier than that even). It's actually way better for her because she can safely and reasonably efficiently build experience whereas with Nyx or Odin or whoever you'd need to almost universally put yourself in a worse position just to properly feed them. Nyx being able to use tomes before Elise doesn't matter when there's no reason to really use tomes during that space of time (and Nyx generally just having a pretty poor stat spread), and the fact that the game throws shitloads of ninjas and generally high res units at you up to that point compounds how bad she is. She doesn't even get the benefit (unlike Odin) of having a ton of stat boosters to pump her relevant weakness, because you get a lot less Secret Books to patch her abysmal Skill (and therefore, her hit rate)..

On my run Elise ended up having about the same Skill(15ish) as Nyx so they both miss a lot. It may be a RNG thing but Elise' flat growth rate in skill is pretty bad anyway. Nyx however can at least use Lightning earlier to ease the low hit rate problem by attacking four times per turn.

Lets say I want to use my character as a pairup partner and eventually spouse for Nyx next time I play conquest ( so sad I'll have to be male that run, I really do love being female and male kanna seems way cooler ) the idea would be to pick the skill boon and a class that gives skill boosts during pairup to shore up her low skill correct?

Alternatively if I want to stay female and marry Odin ( he's probably gonna get stuck as my pairup partner in that case or benched after s rank is gained) do I need to go +magic boon for ophelia's sake or can she handle another build as a mom as long as I don't directly contribute to worsening her weakest growths?

Also if I want to be Soleil's mom in yet another run are there any character builds that are going to completely ruin her?

I should be getting burnout from playing all the versions on varying difficulties back to back but instead all I want to do is try new builds and use characters I left benched in previous playthroughs.

You don't have to sacrifice your Corrin in order to make those units work though.
Nyx can gain access to Archer if your A+ her with Mozu which covers her problem with hit rate. As for the kids, there are a lot of options, some may be even better than Corrin
 

KSai

Member
Finally beat Lunatic Conquest 10!

Funny thing was I spent a few days failing to beat it, then completely took a break from it, not trying at all yesterday. After a couple tries with remembering how to optimize my first turn, I beat it on my first real run through.

That mission was horrible. I restarted my Lunatic run from the beginning and finally beat it without losing anyone. Now my character isn't a Bow Knight anymore, so he can't do the 0 damage ninja shuffle on the next level. Not sure how I'm going to progress but I'll get through eventually.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Okay, first of all, freeze. I'm not saying you should class Elise into Dark Mage or something. That's the implication I'm getting here in this 'is Elise a good magic user' and this dilemma of 'why would you make Elise a combat unit'. Strategist still gives her tome access. She does pretty well to kill things with her tomes given that and E rank is not as crippling as you make it seem.

This isn't an either/or situation. Elise can't compromise her utility as a staff user by taking advantage of tomes unless you're putting her in a class I never advocated you put her in.

The XP curve on staves isn't actually as wide a gap as you're making it seem either. Staff XP is consistent and safe, unlike kill XP, and scales with the rest of your party as opposed to the encounters themselves, which means XP gain per heal is pretty good if you're not osmosing experience too much. Elise was my second character to hit her first level cap, and this didn't happen because of 'favouritism'. She's an essential cog in your army, and if you've been using her enough, her XP gain should be at the very least on curve with everyone else.

She also, again, has a much easier time building experience and staying with the rest of the army because Odin and Nyx are inherently harder to maintain. Even if staff experience isn't as efficient as kill experience, she still expects to receive more of it on average without compromising herself. You can jack Odin up with Spirit Dust, but it's more like a drip-feed through the mid-game, and Nyx is straight up much harder to 'fix' in general. Odin has everything he needs except Magic. Nyx can't hit the broad-side of the barn and her growths are generally incredibly lackluster aside from her magic and her speed. Which is also kind of important, since you do need to hit stuff with her to gain XP, which is another factor to consider when trying to feed Nyx in general.

So tl;dr, no, investing in Nyx to make her 'good' is nowhere near the same thing as investing in Elise to make her good. Elise will naturally and, frankly, very easily fatten up on XP. You don't need to plan specifically to funnel XP or rig a scenario just to keep her alongside the pack. Elise kind of justifies herself.

And honestly, just look at Nyx and Elise side by side. Consider these facts. First of all, you brought up that Elise's skill is not that great. And no, it's not. But consider that she starts with 8 skill at level 4, when you first acquire her. Nyx starts with 8 skill at level 9. Consider that Elise starts with 11 magic, and Nyx starts with just one point more, again, with a five level difference. And consider, once again, that Elise still will gain more magic on average than Nyx can. By the time she transitions into a combat-capable character (or for a direct comparison, when they're both level 1 promotes) she'll be better at Nyx's job than Nyx herself will be with an nth of the effort.

The thing about me saying magic isn't good until a certain point I think is perfectly relevant, though. Your perspective is skewed because you rocked the game with an optimized Magic/Luck build scaling damage and toughness off Magic and tail-ending with Levin Sword. That's amazing, but it's completely irrelevant to what Odin and Nyx bring to the table. Magic in Conquest, essentially, is as good as the characters who can use it and those characters are as good as the circumstances of the maps that they start on, and if they can't get anything started there, they're basically garbage forever. 10 is notable because it's a huge early XP boost but they're both super garbage in that level if they're not manning a turret. Which of course, doesn't actually benefit them. Units with low resistance or vulnerabilities still exist in the early stages of the game, of course, but no mage in the early stages of the game (unless you are building a Mag!Corrin) is worth using offensively anyways. So again, Elise being staff locked isn't relevant toward anything but her starting rank which also isn't nearly as crippling as you're making it sound. And as you conceded, she pushes good damage with a forged Fire, and you didn't need to expend all that effort to get her to the point Nyx could essentially be doing the same thing but a little worse to boot.

I think you're seriously and disproportionately over-valuing the tome itself over what the unit can actually do with it, basically.

I'm getting sidetracked, though. Nyx sucks. Elise doesn't. Saying that they take the same amount of effort and 'favouritism' to be 'good' at killing dudes is silly and disrupts the point. Your point about Leo having a better start and a better enemy phase is noted and yeah, Leo is amazing. But Elise will still hit things harder and she has overall decent stats to handle anything on your turn. Leo is more well rounded but by design, he's not the magic nuke Elise is. He's versatile, but his tome has an irrelevant gimmick and isn't actually that great compared to the actual magic weapons in the game. My statement didn't relate to 'the best unit who happens to use tomes' (and the answer would be Camilla, actually). If we're talking characters that are really nothing but mages, then Elise does the job better than any other first gen. Strategist gives her a strong mix of power, mobility, speed, and renders her bulletproof to any other magician in the game, and that's relevant because most 2 range units in the game you need to worry about outside controlled circumstances transition to tomes by this point.

This post wound up being way messier than I expected, but it's late and I wanted to get it out of the way before I went to bed. To summarize. Elise being a strong magic caster is not mutually exclusive with her utility as a healer and staffbot. There's basically no way she can't farm XP as well or better than her counterparts. Elise is quite to the contrary, a unit that doesn't need specific favouritism to grow. She has a better start and better scaling than Nyx or Odin could ever dream of. And Leo is a great unit, but as a dedicated mage he falls just short in a numbers game because Dark Knight is by design a sort of compromise class. Elise is there to blow people up without gimmicks.
 

champloo

Member
And honestly, just look at Nyx and Elise side by side. Consider these facts. First of all, you brought up that Elise's skill is not that great. And no, it's not. But consider that she starts with 8 skill at level 4, when you first acquire her. Nyx starts with 8 skill at level 9. Consider that Elise starts with 11 magic, and Nyx starts with just one point more, again, with a five level difference. And consider, once again, that Elise still will gain more magic on average than Nyx can. By the time she transitions into a combat-capable character (or for a direct comparison, when they're both level 1 promotes) she'll be better at Nyx's job than Nyx herself will be with an nth of the effort.

Not to nitpick, but Elise starts with 5 skill at level 5, and Nyx with 5 skill at level 9. For a direct comparison. here are their stats on average as level 1 promotes:

Level 1 Strategist Elise 24.5hp 2.75str 26mag 10.75skl 21.75spd 25lck 7.25def 22.25res
Level 1 Sorcerer Nyx 24.3hp 2.65str 22.7mag 9.85skl 20.6spd 5.2lck 8.2def 15.4res

It's true Elise is slightly better in most stats. but factoring in weapon rank which give Nyx some bonus hit rate, and class bonus with more hit rate and crit rate, they is not really a difference. Considering Elise gets a bunch of support skills while Nyx gets Heartseeker and Malific Aura, I'd even say Nyx is better. Even at level 20, they are neck in neck in all the important stats while Nyx has a higher cap in magic and Elise has a higher cap in speed. Elise is still probably the better overall unit, just not because she is a better spellcaster
 
In Birthright Chapter 22
when you've arrived at the Nohr capital, the group gets harassed by a ruffian who says this is a bad part of town and people like "us" can be trouble. Corrin is confused for a moment and says "what do you mean 'us'...oh". And then Takimi confirms that "Yep, we're surrounded". That scene made me chuckle though because they used Takumi's "Ugh...not again." voice clip for that line.
 
And Leo is a great unit, but as a dedicated mage he falls just short in a numbers game because Dark Knight is by design a sort of compromise class. Elise is there to blow people up without gimmicks.

what does this even mean

you realize there's more to combat than "how much damage can I deal" right, not that Leo struggles to put out enough damage and ORKO things anyway
 
On Nyx vs. Elise:
Elise supports three of the female mainstays in Conquest (Effie, Azura, Camilla), has growths so ridiculous that RNG cannot possibly screw her out of her ability to nuke enemies but merely delay it, can at least tank the mage match-up with good Res, will never eat a crit in her life, and is more or less required anyway thanks to being one of two Staff users early on. If you really want, you can re-class her to a Sorcerer through an A+ with Camilla to further her nuking and loldefensive ability at the cost of movement and staff usage. All that on top of having some great supporting skills that can turn units into walls if you know what you're doing.

Nyx meanwhile only supports Effie, can get screwed by RNG, has okay-at-best Res for the mage match-up, can get screwed by crits in said match-up, and isn't 100% required as she's not an early Staff user.

Not to nitpick, but Elise starts with 5 skill at level 5, and Nyx with 5 skill at level 9. For a direct comparison. here are their stats on average as level 1 promotes:

Level 1 Strategist Elise 24.5hp 2.75str 26mag 10.75skl 21.75spd 25lck 7.25def 22.25res
Level 1 Sorcerer Nyx 24.3hp 2.65str 22.7mag 9.85skl 20.6spd 5.2lck 8.2def 15.4res

It's true Elise is slightly better in most stats. but factoring in weapon rank which give Nyx some bonus hit rate, and class bonus with more hit rate and crit rate, they is not really a difference. Considering Elise gets a bunch of support skills while Nyx gets Heartseeker and Malific Aura, I'd even say Nyx is better. Even at level 20, they are neck in neck in all the important stats while Nyx has a higher cap in magic and Elise has a higher cap in speed. Elise is still probably the better overall unit, just not because she is a better spellcaster

On 20/1 and 20/20:

Elise doesn't have to work way to 20/1 while Nyx has to compete with all other combatants to reach 20/1 -- And Elise ends up better anyway.

20/20 Nyx might compare to 20/20 Elise, but 20/20 Nyx can also compare to 20/14 Elise which says a lot about just how absurd Elise's growths are and how she can outright destroy targets at her level.

On Heartseeker and accuracy in general:

Heartseeker only works if Nyx is up in an enemy's face. Unless she's using Lightning, she damn better kill in one shot or else she's in for a world of hurt, being able to take like 2 points more damage than Elise. Lightning's inherent accuracy problems and low Might force it to be used from afar anyway.

From afar, Nyx at B-Tomes and Elise at E-Tomes are equally accurate using the same Tome, but E-rank Tomes are accurate as-is and Elise compensates for their lack of firepower with her Magic stat.

Mag!Corrin >> Leo >>>>>> Nyx > Odin > Elise.

20/1 Sorcerer Odin:
18.5 Mag, 16.75 Spd

20/1 Strategist Elise
26(!!) Mag , 21.75 Spd

>_________>

This is ignoring the fact that you have to feed Odin kills constantly while Elise just Heals Mends her way to promotion by Ch. 18 if not earlier.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Okay, first of all, freeze. I'm not saying you should class Elise into Dark Mage or something. That's the implication I'm getting here in this 'is Elise a good magic user' and this dilemma of 'why would you make Elise a combat unit'. Strategist still gives her tome access. She does pretty well to kill things with her tomes given that and E rank is not as crippling as you make it seem.

This isn't an either/or situation. Elise can't compromise her utility as a staff user by taking advantage of tomes unless you're putting her in a class I never advocated you put her in.

E-rank tomes aren't crippling, but they aren't noteworthy either, which was my main point. Forged Fire still has underwhelming base damage, and even if she can ORKO low Res enemies (which any mage can do), she's still falling short on bulkier units and doesn't even have an EP OR fantastic support options to back it up. Also, you're missing the point; nobody implied you should make her a Dark Mage because that would lower her movement and take away her staff access, which is just about the dumbest thing you can possibly do on Conquest.

The XP curve on staves isn't actually as wide a gap as you're making it seem either. Staff XP is consistent and safe, unlike kill XP, and scales with the rest of your party as opposed to the encounters themselves, which means XP gain per heal is pretty good if you're not osmosing experience too much. Elise was my second character to hit her first level cap, and this didn't happen because of 'favouritism'. She's an essential cog in your army, and if you've been using her enough, her XP gain should be at the very least on curve with everyone else.

Staves are set up so that the user gains experience once per turn at most. Combat units can gain significantly more EXP, especially when the EP or boss units are taken into account. There is absolutely no conceivable way that Elise is promoting early unless you're staff grinding, which shoots a huge hole in the "Elise is a great mage" argument, when said mage doesn't even exist for a huge chunk of the game. Healing is also variable, so there are some cases where you won't gain much EXP on her if you don't need to heal.

She also, again, has a much easier time building experience and staying with the rest of the army because Odin and Nyx are inherently harder to maintain. Even if staff experience isn't as efficient as kill experience, she still expects to receive more of it on average without compromising herself. You can jack Odin up with Spirit Dust, but it's more like a drip-feed through the mid-game, and Nyx is straight up much harder to 'fix' in general. Odin has everything he needs except Magic. Nyx can't hit the broad-side of the barn and her growths are generally incredibly lackluster aside from her magic and her speed. Which is also kind of important, since you do need to hit stuff with her to gain XP, which is another factor to consider when trying to feed Nyx in general.

Odin isn't difficult to maintain dude. Felicia and tonics gives him 12 speed at base, which is enough to double every enemy in chapter 8 outside of Fighters and Flora. That's a ton of experience he can nab for free right there, and he can similarly perform in Mozu's paralogue which is just "free EXP" the level. I wouldn't personally use him as a mage since his slow start is really bad and his returns aren't that impressive but it is absolutely possible to make him a viable unit since his support options really are that good. He just needs a ton of maintenance on the player's part before he can start snowball (unless he gets shit level ups, but you were only going to use him up until you got Ophelia anyway). Also, if Nyx can't hit the broadside of a barn, then what about Elise? Her skill growth is similarly terrible but she doesn't even have the luxury of having Heartseeker. Of course, Nyx generally shouldn't be attacking enemies at point blank either, but at least she has access to instant Forged Lightning which lets her 2HKO enemies before they can even counter attack.

So tl;dr, no, investing in Nyx to make her 'good' is nowhere near the same thing as investing in Elise to make her good. Elise will naturally and, frankly, very easily fatten up on XP. You don't need to plan specifically to funnel XP or rig a scenario just to keep her alongside the pack. Elise kind of justifies herself.

Investing in Nyx absolutely makes her good. "Good" in the sense that can she can kill most enemies in one round at a range when trained up which is pretty much all I need her to do as a Mage. She's very flawed and she simply isn't a character I would personally use in combat (especially when her support is like +1 move, +6 Speed and +3 which is way too good too pass up), but she isn't worthless either. Elise's main issue as a combat unit is that she simply does not exist as a Mage for a good chunk of conquest, spends a significant amount of time in E/D rank hell, which lowers the amount of contributions she can make as a Mage AND her pair up options are ass on top of that. That's why I have her pegged as inferior to Leo/Odin/Nyx, who all can make use out of great tomes like Forged Lightning, Mjolnir and Horse Spirit (with the latter 2 of course functioning as decent mages after a boost).

The thing about me saying magic isn't good until a certain point I think is perfectly relevant, though. Your perspective is skewed because you rocked the game with an optimized Magic/Luck build scaling damage and toughness off Magic and tail-ending with Levin Sword. That's amazing, but it's completely irrelevant to what Odin and Nyx bring to the table. Magic in Conquest, essentially, is as good as the characters who can use it and those characters are as good as the circumstances of the maps that they start on, and if they can't get anything started there, they're basically garbage forever. 10 is notable because it's a huge early XP boost but they're both super garbage in that level if they're not manning a turret. Which of course, doesn't actually benefit them. Units with low resistance or vulnerabilities still exist in the early stages of the game, of course, but no mage in the early stages of the game (unless you are building a Mag!Corrin) is worth using offensively anyways. So again, Elise being staff locked isn't relevant toward anything but her starting rank which also isn't nearly as crippling as you're making it sound. And as you conceded, she pushes good damage with a forged Fire, and you didn't need to expend all that effort to get her to the point Nyx could essentially be doing the same thing but a little worse to boot.

That's a false claim. Early game has Fighters and Armors who are absolutely fucked by Magic, and most of the early bosses (besides like Hinoka) have shit resistance. If anything, using an optimized Corrin has shown me how destructive Magic can be. It's only held back by its lackluster users, but you eventually get Leo and Ophelia who rock at magic, and you can make Odin and Nyx function with the help of supports/tonics.

I think you're seriously and disproportionately over-valuing the tome itself over what the unit can actually do with it, basically.

Tomes are literally the life blood of mages. They're the reason why Ophelia is a crit Goddess, the reason why Leo can consistently erase enemies with Forged Lightning/Brynhilda, the reason why Odin and Nyx have any worth in combat since they can sort of the do the above, but are worse at it. Elise spends a significant portion of the game being unable to do any of these things, which is why she isn't a noteworthy mage.

I'm getting sidetracked, though. Nyx sucks. Elise doesn't. Saying that they take the same amount of effort and 'favouritism' to be 'good' at killing dudes is silly and disrupts the point. Your point about Leo having a better start and a better enemy phase is noted and yeah, Leo is amazing. But Elise will still hit things harder and she has overall decent stats to handle anything on your turn. Leo is more well rounded but by design, he's not the magic nuke Elise is. He's versatile, but his tome has an irrelevant gimmick and isn't actually that great compared to the actual magic weapons in the game. My statement didn't relate to 'the best unit who happens to use tomes' (and the answer would be Camilla, actually). If we're talking characters that are really nothing but mages, then Elise does the job better than any other first gen. Strategist gives her a strong mix of power, mobility, speed, and renders her bulletproof to any other magician in the game, and that's relevant because most 2 range units in the game you need to worry about outside controlled circumstances transition to tomes by this point.

Sorry, but Leo not being a magic nuke is complete and utter bullshit. Leo easily caps Speed and Magic and I could consistently get his speed high enough with support to double most enemies, which basically meant quadruple Lightning tome (or an incredibly hard hitting 2 hit with Brynhilda, which hits like a truck because since his magic is overkill). Who cares if his personal tome's ability sucks ass, its unpenalized 1-2 range with high base damage, which is amazing on its own. Elise is never hitting as hard as Leo, period.

Nyx takes noticeable investment to be good as a mage. Elise takes little investment to be acceptable as a mage and she simply does not exist as one until she promotes (which is a long time without staff grinding). That's the crux of my argument.

This post wound up being way messier than I expected, but it's late and I wanted to get it out of the way before I went to bed. To summarize. Elise being a strong magic caster is not mutually exclusive with her utility as a healer and staffbot. There's basically no way she can't farm XP as well or better than her counterparts. Elise is quite to the contrary, a unit that doesn't need specific favouritism to grow. She has a better start and better scaling than Nyx or Odin could ever dream of. And Leo is a great unit, but as a dedicated mage he falls just short in a numbers game because Dark Knight is by design a sort of compromise class. Elise is there to blow people up without gimmicks.

What? Dark Knight Leo has 8 move, access to all the best tomes (instant access to Lightning), Lifetaker, Heartseeker, (which mitigates his sketchy skill growth), very good pair-up options and an actual enemy phase. Exactly what about him is gimmicky? As I said earlier, Elise isn't there to blow people up. She's there to Freeze, to heal, to rescue without being attached to a high move unit due to her own high move. I don't need her to blow her up because I can't count on her offense being anything better than "average", especially when she doesn't have the pair up options OR tome rank to be a threat for most of the game.
 
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