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Fire Emblem Heroes |OT|Natural Selection Simulator

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commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Having talked to some of them and having been informed of how they make the list I have to disagree. They take units, strip them of skills and seals, apply neutral natures and analyze performance in a mostly 1v1 context. They also make these comparisons with units performing different roles. Technically this is an accurate way of comparing units (minimizing variance) but it's not really useful in the context of a practical arena setting.

It's why they rate units like Spring Camilla, Ursula and Cecilia so low.
Personally I think this leads to a list that doesn't reflect the realities of the current metagame at all.

I also have to disagree with your second paragraph, even on the highest levels Reinhardt performs remarkably well without support, and only needs one Hone buff to escalate his favorable matchups.

Well, I'm not talking about how the list is created. That doesn’t actually matter much. Like I said, I’m talking about how to best view and interpret their list. If you just use it to see how units within a class compare with one another, I can’t find a lot to disagree with. If you want to compare units across function (e.g., compare how Ike is an S+ and Rein is a S), it doesn’t really work, and no tier list could possibly work in this regard, because units can and do serve completely different needs and have different roles. Like, if you need a mage, Effie’s S+ rating isn’t going to mean that you include Effie over a Julia. But you would use an Effie over a Donnel.

Also not sure what you disagree with w/r/t Rein. I didn’t say he doesn’t perform well; I just said that, to get maximum benefit out of him, you need to use a specific team composition and that limits his flexibility when it comes to team comp (assuming you want to maximize his effectiveness). Unless you disagree that he needs a specific team comp in order to reach peak performance…? I think we can all agree that, while Rein is very strong on his own, he is even stronger on a horse team. And Nino is strongest on a buff team. Etc etc. Units like Nowi don’t need much of anything w/r/t teammates in order to dominate, and I think that has value.
 

Roman

Member
Well, I'm not talking about how the list is created. That doesn't actually matter much. Like I said, I'm talking about how to best view and interpret their list. If you just use it to see how units within a class compare with one another, I can't find a lot to disagree with. If you want to compare units across function (e.g., compare how Ike is an S+ and Rein is a S), it doesn't really work, and no tier list could possibly work in this regard, because units can and do serve completely different needs and have different roles. Like, if you need a mage, Effie's S+ rating isn't going to mean that you include Effie over a Julia. But you would use an Effie over a Donnel.

Also not sure what you disagree with w/r/t Rein. I didn't say he doesn't perform well; I just said that, to get maximum benefit out of him, you need to use a specific team composition and that limits his flexibility when it comes to team comp (assuming you want to maximize his effectiveness). Unless you disagree that he needs a specific team comp in order to reach peak performance...? I think we can all agree that, while Rein is very strong on his own, he is even stronger on a horse team. And Nino is strongest on a buff team. Etc etc. Units like Nowi don't need much of anything w/r/t teammates in order to dominate, and I think that has value.

For one I strongly disagree with putting Ike on the same tier as Ryoma, assuming they are used in the same role. I similarly disagree with putting Linde and Reinhardt on the same level.

I would also honestly use any lance user except Sharena in tier S over Effie in almost any team, especially Azura. Furthermore, I am not seeing how Nowi dominates in any context, the reasons the tier list itself cites for her ranking have lost most of their relevance over time (Falchions) and usage of Julia, Cecilia and Nino has vastly increased.
 
Screenshot_2017-05-15-14-58-13.png

Trying to be optimal in Team Robin is suffering =_=

I wonder if I should just say fuck it and use some flags this round
 

Sushen

Member
There should be a list that reflects what's the current meta because that's all that matters. Sure, some units take little SI to be useful but I rarely see non-tweaked units in the arena nowadays. Of course the list needs to be updated to reflect the latest meta.

What's good on paper is only good on paper.
 

Mupod

Member
Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.

Trying to be optimal in Team Robin is suffering =_=

I wonder if I should just say fuck it and use some flags this round

the only reason I've got any placement in team Robin is the 100 flags I managed to use with 3x points while half asleep. I always planned to burn them all in the final round but I hope Tharja's sheer numbers allow me to actually use them at 3x points.
 

Sushen

Member
Trying to be optimal in Team Robin is suffering =_=

I wonder if I should just say fuck it and use some flags this round
I'm on the other side of the fence and I'm dumping my flags like there is no tomorrow thanks to 3x multipliers. I'll see if it was a smart thing to do in a couple day.

Likely, I won't be ranked high in the final matchup.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
For one I strongly disagree with putting Ike on the same tier as Ryoma, assuming they are used in the same role. I similarly disagree with putting Linde and Reinhardt on the same level.

I would also honestly use any lance user except Sharena in tier S over Effie in almost any team, especially Azura. Furthermore, I am not seeing how Nowi dominates in any context, the reasons the tier list itself cites for her ranking have lost most of their relevance over time (Falchions) and usage of Julia, Cecilia and Nino has vastly increased.

If you want to argue that Ike isn’t as good as Ryoma, then fine. Everyone has a different opinion. But you will agree that, among the red swords, those two are probably the best (well, I think Xander is up there as well). Within reds, the rankings they have aren’t way off. Same with Effie vs. Ephraim. If you think he’s better than Effie, then fine. Many others feel differently. But they are both sitting at the top of the blue lance list (I consider dancers to be a separate category altogether, tbh).

Again, my point is that that we should use this, or any tier list, to get an idea of how categories of units compare with one another, e.g., one red sword vs another red sword. Tier lists don’t work when you try to compare two different types of units because there are many other factors that come into play.
 
I am rank 2024 of 6617 for top 10% in Tier 15 with 4840 points. Looks like there's about 66 000 people in this rank. Will be 17 tomorrow but will struggle to stay in, don't think I will move up to rank 18.
 

Mupod

Member
I am rank 2024 of 6617 for Tier 1 in Rank 15 with 4840 points. Looks like there's about 66 000 people in this rank. Will be 17 tomorrow but will struggle to stay in, don't think I will move up to rank 18.

I mean from this we can figure out exactly how many will be in 17, right? Sounds like around 9000 people. And if I'm reading this right, half of those will move up. In which case I'll probably be stuck at 17, especially if I have to carry a weaker bonus unit than Ike.

 
Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.



the only reason I've got any placement in team Robin is the 100 flags I managed to use with 3x points while half asleep. I always planned to burn them all in the final round but I hope Tharja's sheer numbers allow me to actually use them at 3x points.

The 3x bonus for Robin ate always right as I fall asleep so I don't even get that.

I'm on the other side of the fence and I'm dumping my flags like there is no tomorrow thanks to 3x multipliers. I'll see if it was a smart thing to do in a couple day.

Likely, I won't be ranked high in the final matchup.

Anyone not dumping everything they have during multipliers are the ones that won't rank high really
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.
T13 Rank 1225 at 4806. Tried another run or two as side effects of trying to get flags, but never got past 4800 again. Kept running into too many 684 opponents, and didn't want to use more crests surrendering.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
There should be a list that reflects what's the current meta because that's all that matters. Sure, some units take little SI to be useful but I rarely see non-tweaked units in the arena nowadays. Of course the list needs to be updated to reflect the latest meta.

What's good on paper is only good on paper.

I honestly think it's hard to pin down the meta right now. I see such a wide variety of teams. I wish someone on reddit would collect a bunch of data each week and post stats on unit frequency. I'm guess it also varies a lot across arena tiers. I rarely see horse emblem, for example, because their BST is too low. I see a crap load of Hectors though.

Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.

I'm in T15, still at 4836, good for rank 2228 in my tier. I feel like tier 17 is going to be brutal.
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
I see Hector almost every single match now. It's crazy. There are also a lot of double armor teams that have either Hector and Effie, or Hector and Zephiel.

I also ran into a guy named "Tank Emblem" who ran something like MRobin, Cherche, Hector and Effie, and most units had defense or sustainability skills put on them. That was pretty funny, though the team wasn't particularly powerful.

As for tiers, I think Bunnilla is a great unit for Flier Emblem, but I almost never run into flier teams so it's rare to see her in her strongest form. When she's only around one buffer or so, she's pretty much the same as Nino, but with more mobility.

I've only seen her in a full flier team once, and that was when she utterly destroyed me. So I'm not sure where I'd put her in a tier list. I mean, in a flier emblem team she's top tier, but would probably be A-ish outside of that.
 

explodet

Member
T15, 4515, rank 38K.
I won't be moving up tiers, but that's fine. I think competition is getting ridiculous. I went with a low-stress season this time around.
 

kewlmyc

Member
Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.

Tier 15:

Rank in Tier: 1640

Offense: 4850

Defense: 582
 

Roman

Member
If you want to argue that Ike isn't as good as Ryoma, then fine. Everyone has a different opinion. But you will agree that, among the red swords, those two are probably the best (well, I think Xander is up there as well). Within reds, the rankings they have aren't way off. Same with Effie vs. Ephraim. If you think he's better than Effie, then fine. Many others feel differently. But they are both sitting at the top of the blue lance list (I consider dancers to be a separate category altogether, tbh).

Again, my point is that that we should use this, or any tier list, to get an idea of how categories of units compare with one another, e.g., one red sword vs another red sword. Tier lists don't work when you try to compare two different types of units because there are many other factors that come into play.

No, honestly I think Ike and Xander should be a tier below Ryoma - I think the rankings are off. I also think Eirika should be above Ike.

I also disagree on dancers being graded separately. Even in the parameters you interpret this list I don't agree with it at all.

Furthermore the list itself cites reasons for placing units that are simply not relevant anymore or hold far less weight, and lists checks and counters that are far more hindering now.

Nowi is still an excellent example of this - the text praises her for her performance against Falchions and lists green mages as a significant downside. Yet, the tier list has not adapted to Falchions decreasing and green mages severely increasing in usage.
 

Firemind

Member
What kind of build do you guys have for Kagero? Mine's +ATK -RES.
Moonbow/Draw Back/Death Blow/filler/Savage Blow (filler being Wings of Mercy)

Savage Blow shouldn't be slept on. It turns many matchups into OHKOs that wouldn't otherwise (Reinhardt, Ursula, MRobin without TA, Ike, +Ryoma)

Drawback is used to put your dancer out of range after Kagero takes out a unit, making Kagero a perfect hit and runner.
 

Vena

Member
Ike is a worse red than either Lucina or Marth, he has no business being compared to Ryoma other than as being noted as his inferior.
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
Furthermore the list itself cites reasons for placing units that are simply not relevant anymore or hold far less weight, and lists checks and counters that are far more hindering now.

Nowi is still an excellent example of this - the text praises her for her performance against Falchions and lists green mages as a significant downside. Yet, the tier list has not adapted to Falchions decreasing and green mages severely increasing in usage.
I feel like Nowi should be higher on the tier list, actually. IMO she should be around the same tier as Hector. She's like Hector in that it's relatively easy to come up with a dedicated counter to her, but she wreaks absolute havoc to anyone who doesn't hard counter her. Like Hector, if you don't have a unit who hard counters Nowi, she can end your run.

Like Hector, she's a great tank/counterkill unit, which makes her excellent for offense teams but comparatively weaker on defense teams because humans can easily position their dedicated counters against the AI. Personally, I only fight Nowi with my own Nowi. I know that Falchions don't cut it against her, especially against Nowis that are built to counter them.

As for the meta shifts, I don't think Hector was ever considered anything but a top tier unit, even when red swords and Falchions were super abundant. It's just that everyone seems to agree that outside of his hard counters, Hector is an incredibly strong unit, and I feel the same applies to Nowi. The abundance of green mages doesn't discount the fact that Nowi is incredibly powerful against anyone who is not a hard counter to her.
 

Sushen

Member
It looks like it's over for Leo. Hopefully there isn't another multiplier before the end as I have spent so much this round like almost 600k.
 

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
No, honestly I think Ike and Xander should be a tier below Ryoma - I think the rankings are off. I also think Eirika should be above Ike.

I also disagree on dancers being graded separately. Even in the parameters you interpret this list I don't agree with it at all.

Furthermore the list itself cites reasons for placing units that are simply not relevant anymore or hold far less weight, and lists checks and counters that are far more hindering now.

Nowi is still an excellent example of this - the text praises her for her performance against Falchions and lists green mages as a significant downside. Yet, the tier list has not adapted to Falchions decreasing and green mages severely increasing in usage.

Okay, so I guess you want to fixate on the actual rankings of the characters. You think Eirika is better than Ike. I do not. But we are disagreeing between the top two ranks – very small difference, much like disagreeing between Effie and Ephraim. Very, very little difference. And you keep talking about the list of reasons in this tier list, but those reasons are very, very old and outdated and most have not been updated. No one actually relies on those reasons.

At the end of the day, it seems like you are really only arguing that you disagree with some of the rankings. Well, ALL of us disagree with some of the rankings. That’s true for any tier list, for any game. I'm not disagreeing with you on that.
 
Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.

Managed 4768 in tier 15 since I had to bring 4 star Anna. The next 2 sets of seasons should be better since I have 5* Xander and then Sharena to follow up.
 
Arena's almost done for the week - so what's everyone's tier placement looking like?

I'm in T14 with 4820, ranked 820. The top 5% of T14 will move up to T17, so after all this time I'll have finally caught up from being a week behind. I initially kept getting scores of 4804-4806 and that run was just a fluke I guess. But I wonder if 4804 would've got me in the top ~2200 as well.



the only reason I've got any placement in team Robin is the 100 flags I managed to use with 3x points while half asleep. I always planned to burn them all in the final round but I hope Tharja's sheer numbers allow me to actually use them at 3x points.

I have 4674 Offense, 554 Defense, and 24,758 Rank. I'm in the upper half of tier 15, so I'm going up to tier 16.

I couldn't get a perfect run this week, but that wouldn't have increased my bracket because my perfect runs currently cap somewhere between 4730 and 4760.
My total Arena payout will be 5000 Feathers and 3 Orbs, which is very nice.

In the voting gauntlet, my team score is 795,840 and cumulative is 803,960. Team rank is 140 and cumulative rank is 2,993. I've used all obtainable flags except for 620 of them.

Getting a high cumulative is my highest priority, so I realized that I had to spend when round 2 came around. There's no way I could have scored all possible x3 bonuses in the Final Round.

I'll be backing Robin once Julia loses, because I've never summoned Tharja.
 

Scum

Junior Member
Moonbow/Draw Back/Death Blow/filler/Savage Blow (filler being Wings of Mercy)

Savage Blow shouldn't be slept on. It turns many matchups into OHKOs that wouldn't otherwise (Reinhardt, Ursula, MRobin without TA, Ike, +Ryoma)

Drawback is used to put your dancer out of range after Kagero takes out a unit, making Kagero a perfect hit and runner.

Cheers.
 

Kar L

Member
Barely in the top 10% for tier 15 but not sure if that was a good idea, since it probably means I'm going to go down a tier next week...
I know what you mean lol. I'm in the same boat. Scored 4798 this week. I have a solid team, but no merges. Just scraping by. Hopefully we can at least maintain rank this week.
 

Kar L

Member
Boey loses 4 stats with a bane in atk, spd, and res. With a bane in res he reaches 14 res, amazing.
Yeah you really want a speed or HP bane with Boey. +Def is pointless, he'll already have a ton. I definitely wouldn't mind pulling a +Res one though. That's where he needs some help, and he's a tank.
 

Kar L

Member
4820 has me at around rank 800. Pretty comfortably in the 5% bracket, so I'll be tier 17 next week. So will a lot of people, though. And unless one of my mainstays ends up a bonus unit, it'll be rough going.

For the gauntlet, the only time Robin has been losing to Leo was very early on...I was half awake and only had 8 minutes to spend flags. I only had time to use 100. So, here's hoping Robin ends up way behind for the final round so I can actually spend my flag hoard with the multiplier. I'm really not a fan of this mechanic.
wow seriously? 4798 has me just past rank 6000. That's a lot of people in just those 20 points of rating! Nearly everyone, in fact.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Ike is a worse red than either Lucina or Marth, he has no business being compared to Ryoma other than as being noted as his inferior.

Ike is a worse Ryoma, but he's still better than Lucina/Marth by virtue of his innate Distant Counter. It's that good.
 

Vena

Member
Ike is a worse Ryoma, but he's still better than Lucina/Marth by virtue of his innate Distant Counter. It's that good.

Its not when you melt to the very things you're trying to counter, and you're getting gibbed by Desperation Ninos and only really serving as a check to AI controlled dumb-Nino or a Julia. Same reason its not "that good" on Xander and he's butressed up to a higher tier by the fact that he's on a horse and can slot into horse emblem.

Lucina will also melt but she comes with a LOT more offensive fire power than he does.

Marth is more of a tank variant with Falchion+Renewal regenerative options that allow him to be the best non-stat compromised medic in the game.

Both Lucina and Marth have the speed to avoid being doubled by all/most of the cast.
 

Kar L

Member
my first couple attempts ended badly but I think I have the hang of these maps now. The pillars one can get awkward. I'm glad I haven't run into full cavalry on the bridge map where everyone starts super close.
hahaha this ruined one of my deathless streaks yesterday. I mean just look at this nonsense. What's really screwed up is I would have won, Ike would have lived with 1hp while baiting Cecilia on the first turn had I been using fortify res on Azura instead of fortify def.
IMG_3313_zpsfuci4wrz.png


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3315_zpsnjyi0rr6.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3314_zps8pfe9tdf.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3316_zpsc4aloajd.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3317_zpsjisnwy83.png

That is the team I am trying to build too. I want to get an Elise now more than anything. I just don't have a +Atk Cecilia right now is the only problem. I plan to leave raven tome on her as well because we're going to have to roll with a bonus unit every week.
 

Roman

Member
Arena rewards are already in, you can get your 3 orbs.

Meanwhile we have updated our FE GAF Discord tier list, I will just paste the changes:

Lucina moves down from S/A to A
Lukas moves up from C to B
Linde moves down from S to A
Soren moves up from B to A
Celica (added) goes to A
Mae (added) goes to B
Boey (added) goes to C
Genny (added), as an unmounted healer, defaults to D
 

Syntsui

Member
hahaha this ruined one of my deathless streaks yesterday. I mean just look at this nonsense. What's really screwed up is I would have won, Ike would have lived with 1hp while baiting Cecilia on the first turn had I been using fortify res on Azura instead of fortify def.
IMG_3313_zpsfuci4wrz.png


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3315_zpsnjyi0rr6.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3314_zps8pfe9tdf.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3316_zpsc4aloajd.png
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/Nothing371/IMG_3317_zpsjisnwy83.png

That is the team I am trying to build too. I want to get an Elise now more than anything. I just don't have a +Atk Cecilia right now is the only problem. I plan to leave raven tome on her as well because we're going to have to roll with a bonus unit every week.

Dude used feathers to promote more than one Xander? Whales are scary.
 

Kar L

Member
So I'm basically debating whether I want to give my Ike Fury 3. The reason why I'm debating is because heavy blade is pretty sweet, especially with threaten attack. Also because he has freaking zero sp. aka it would take a million years of grinding. Persuade me gaf!

His current build is Heavy Sword 3, Vantage 3, Threaten Attack 3, Reposition, and Luna. +HP -DEF.
I don't like Fury 3 on my bruisers, generally speaking. Not if they tank quite a bit and soak up single digit damage.

Anyways, on Ike you want both Quick Riposte and Aether, trust me. Along with Heavy Blade the Aether heals him back up into Quick Riposte range. It charges after just one combat on the enemy phase. 3 attack and then boom, you have a small self heal while you bonus damage goes off.

The whole Fury + Vantage thing is much more applicable on other characters. Quick Riposte gives Ike an extra attack on the enemy phase. Vantage just makes him go first. You want the extra attacks which also charge your special.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Its not when you melt to the very things you're trying to counter, and you're getting gibbed by Desperation Ninos and only really serving as a check to AI controlled dumb-Nino or a Julia. Same reason its not "that good" on Xander and he's butressed up to a higher tier by the fact that he's on a horse and can slot into horse emblem.

Lucina will also melt but she comes with a LOT more offensive fire power than he does.

Marth is more of a tank variant with Falchion+Renewal regenerative options that allow him to be the best non-stat compromised medic in the game.

Both Lucina and Marth have the speed to avoid being doubled by all/most of the cast.

> Its not when you melt to the very things you're trying to counter

Nino fails to OHKO Ike even with maximum buffs.

> Desperation Ninos and only really serving as a check to AI controlled dumb-Nino or a Julia.

This should never happen.

> Lucina will also melt but she comes with a LOT more offensive fire power than he does.

Being able to double most enemies is neat, but Ike more than matches her offensive power with Quick Riposte.

> Marth is more of a tank variant with Falchion+Renewal regenerative options that allow him to be the best non-stat compromised medic in the game.

Gimmick set. Marth is borderline outclassed by Lucina anyway.

---

Without distant counter, Ike is a competent but unremarkable red sword unit. With it, he has the ability to check (not counter) green mages and certain ranged units. He's above the rest because his coverage is considerably wider. It's the same reason why Ryoma > all reds; in a game where keeping every unit alive is priority #1, and fully buffed green mages can ruin streaks, a character like Ike is invaluable.
 
Yeah you really want a speed or HP bane with Boey. +Def is pointless, he'll already have a ton. I definitely wouldn't mind pulling a +Res one though. That's where he needs some help, and he's a tank.

You never want a SPD bane on someone who lacks Wary Fighter. We're not just talking about a -3 drop which is bad enough, but this is -4. You think that's OK?

Only Reinhardt can get away with -SPD since he'll alway be doubled.

Even a DEF bane is fine if his +stat is ATK or SPD. I don't think Boey is anything to be scared of if you have any competent mage or dragon.
 
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