Following Concord’s historic failure, Sony admits its live-service push is “not entirely going smoothly”

I have shown Concord's characters to people who dont play videogames and they all, and I mean EVERYONE, said those characters were fucking shit. They couldnt believe a normal human being would design those monstrosities. Any person with a normal brain should see how awful they are.

Devs and execs who earn 6-8 figure salaries being unable to see the incoming disaster should be fired on the spot or even being sued for negiglence. It's fucking insane. These people should not work in this industry, or in any.
 
I have shown Concord's characters to people who dont play videogames and they all, and I mean EVERYONE, said those characters were fucking shit. They couldnt believe a normal human being would design those monstrosities. Any person with a normal brain should see how awful they are.

Devs and execs who earn 6-8 figure salaries being unable to see the incoming disaster should be fired on the spot or even being sued for negiglence. It's fucking insane. These people should not work in this industry, or in any.
As crazy as it sounds, when the Concord disaster was in full motion and the game was pulled, a game director (I think) tweeted he got a new job at SIE doing something else. So while the studio was in limbo at that time (and shut down a month later), somehow he still scored a new role at Sony. lol
 
You dont get it.
Yes, I get it. You're a gaming flatearther that don't accept reality and say that all Sony GaaS other than Helldivers 2

Even with H2's huge success and whatever D2 DLC mtx they get, there is no way that's covering Bungie's $1.2B employee retention pay off
Pretty likely their GaaS already generated enough revenue to pay the budget of all the dozen GaaS titles including the ones cancelled and not greenlighted as part of the process, and part of the money spent on acquisitions. So make sure the current games and part of the upcoming ones will generate the money that acquisitions did cost.

Regarding the Bungie employee retention bonuses some people got fired or left, so Sony didn't pay part of it. And in case part of them were linked to performance (we don't know if applies here, but it's something very common to avoid that people just sitting in a chair), maybe another part of it wasn't paid.

Btw, they mentioned in the presentation that part of the profit boost is that they did complete paying the remaining acquisition related costs. Meaning, they already completed the retention bonuses (pretty likely were for a period of 3 years).

They'd be more successful if they skipped all the above and just went with GT7 and MLB as usual.
No, Destiny 2 and Helldivers 2 are very successful. And pretty likely Tokon and Marathon plus some other one too. And party will be thanks to having learnt from mistakes made with Concord or Deviation. Game companies know that only retarded people can expect 100% success in every single project, and assume that a portion of the projects will fail. And when that happens, they try to learn as much as possible from that in extensive postmortems to try to avoid having the same mistake in the future.

That's a key reason why Sony's gaming division margins have dried up.
It's the opposite, they increased and are getting record profits. And part of it it's thanks to GaaS and (mosty PC) multiplatform.

That's why Sony has been so gung ho with PC ports and now will release more Switch/Xbox ports in the future. Need to make up high margin sales to comp dwindling division margins.
As Totoki said, Sony kept doubling down on PC ports because they are a very rprofitable business with a high ROI. They cost a couple millions and get profitable selling a couple dozen thousand copies, so even Sackboy get profitable and in most cases they end having huge ROI.

And according to Hermen and Nishino (plus the metrics) a portion of these players end buying a PS5 helping ot increase console active userbase (they are at all time highs).

And well, other than announcing Helldivers 2 for Xbox and the 3 titles licensed to Bandai Namco that also will be relesed in Switch, nobody said that they have plans to make more Switch/Xbox ports. Something that wouldn't make sense specially when Xbox consoles won't exist in a couple years and because Switch 2 isn't porwerful enough to run decently (or doesn't have enough disk space to store) many modern big games.

Their known future multiplatform expansion is adapting their IPs to mobile mostly by licensing it to top Asian devs/publishers, expanding on PC with their upcoming PC PSN store and Xbox consoles to be replaced by consolized PCs that will run Windows and Steam (meaning MS will have the Sony Steam titles there but won't get a dollar from them). Plus as we know, Bungie -including Marathon and Destiny 2- and MLB stuff to remain multiplatform.

And well, we also know they were exploring ideas to expand PS Plus to both PC and mobile with potential dedicated content that could appeal these players, and that they have been working since 2013 to bring some day PS Cloud gaming to smartphones, tablets and smart tvs.

The division sells 2-3x more revenue than 5 years ago and profit $$$ are about the same
The profits are now bigger than ever. But yes, Sony generally doesn't like to leave the money in the bank as profits and they prefer to invest it in stuff instead:

As a few examples, this generation they basically doubled the SIE manpower by expanding many of their teams, creating new ones and acquiring others, plus investing more than ever in both 2nd party and 3rd party deals, while working in more first party games than ever before at the same time.

They also made many investments in external publishers or devs, different types of gamedev tech, acquired EVO, revamped their game sub and cloud gaming plus highly expanded their accesories lineup.
 
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What are they? Helldivers isn't technically Sony and it's coming out on Xbox.

I am not aware of the others but I also don't own an Xbox or PlayStation this gen.
The Sony CFO explained it and mentioned them in the complete sentence that some anti-Sony hater cut when making the stuff in the OP: the are Helldivers 2, MLB, Gran Turismo 7 and Destiny 2. They are big hits providing a consi steady revenue and profit to SIE, around 40% of their first party revenue this quarter.

And yes, Helldivers is 100% technically a Sony (first party) game. It's a Sony owned IP, a Sony published game, a Sony funded game made mostly by Sony staff and serveral external outsourcing studios hired+funded+managed by Sony to make the game, being Arrowhead one of them. As in the case of most AAA games, the lead dev team (in this case Arrowhead) only represents around 10% of the staff who works in the game.

Regaring older very successful Sony GaaS with multiplayer there are many: a few examples are Everquest, DC Universe Online, Little Big Planet, PS Home or Gran Turismo Sport.
 
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Sony can't seem to make a live service game or a big multiplayer hit.

Socom on the PS2 was possibly the last franchise.
Have you been living under a rock or did somebody wipe Helldivers 2 from your memory?

What are they? Helldivers isn't technically Sony and it's coming out on Xbox.

I am not aware of the others but I also don't own an Xbox or PlayStation this gen.
It absolutely is technically Sony. In the same way that Socom was Sony ( Sony didn't own Zipper interactive when SOCOM 1 to 3 released.)

The other games are GT7 and MLB The Show (and Destiny if you count that too)
 
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.....but double down anyway 👍
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Yeah, there are no "cheap" failures in the AAA space. The only difference with GAAS stuff is the revenue potential on the upside is vastly greater than almost any single player title. Which is why they'll keep going to the well until they have titles that actually stick.

The reality is that most of the people cheering on the failures in attempting GAAS, couldn't predict what would be a successful game in that space if their lives depended on it, because they aren't interested in that sort of game in the first place.

Which is significant when evidently there *is* a massive audience to be tapped.

Its sad to me how many people seem to think that if a game isn't for them, it doesn't deserve to exist.
Completely disagree.

There are some very sensible suggestions already in the thread.

SOCOM would be a hit as it ties closely to precedents of other successful military shooters in the genre and few of them have a presence in the PS ecosystem so you have a gap in the market there already.

Hell fucking Killzone turned into a GaaS FPS full-on war sim would be fucking epic.

Resistance could work if done well.

Then maybe play around with smaller stuff moving into the gatcha genre (Jak & Daxter, & some more Japanese centric + licensed trans media IPs).
 
You dont get it.

Put it this way. Even with H2's huge success and whatever D2 DLC mtx they get, there is no way that's covering Bungie's $1.2B employee retention pay off, and all the extra costs of newly bought and shut down GAAS studios and games (add Firewalk and Concord to the mix). Huge money loss. And that doesn't even include the value loss in Bungie which has hit the shitter. They've already done 2-3 waves of layoffs. Add it all up and it's huge losses.

They'd be more successful if they skipped all the above and just went with GT7 and MLB as usual.

That's a key reason why Sony's gaming division margins have dried up. The division sells 2-3x more revenue than 5 years ago and profit $$$ are about the same. Huge dev costs sunk the financials.

That's why Sony has been so gung ho with PC ports and now will release more Switch/Xbox ports in the future. Need to make up high margin sales to comp dwindling division margins.
Interesting point as to why Sony now will release their games on other systems. Guess we may have to thank the woke games that failed.
 
Interesting point as to why Sony now will release their games on other systems. Guess we may have to thank the woke games that failed.
Still think it is exaggerated, some games like their live services games made sense on multiple platforms for them and it is something they had signalled it would be everywhere and yes I think that will be Day One (HellDivers II will be on Switch), some other games will arrive possibly only on PC a good while after premiering on consoles, and some others will still stay on consoles.

Their revenue was not dependent on all those failed Live Service game efforts, so cutting costs there is a direct margins boost.

Going multiplatform either all their titles day one would be a lot worse for them than their Luve Services games push as they put a huge portion of their revenue at risk and they must know deep inside that they will never have a successful PC Launcher where they can get people to buy their games and other games from and thus still get that sweet 30% of sales from them (lots less mtx revenue though as it would be more difficult to tie down on an open platform) and say bye bye to the PS+ subscription revenue.

You built a profitable moat / walled garden, protect it… makes no sense to throw that away and compete as a third party publisher only with mammoths three times your IP size. Make no mistake, if people think they can be a third party publisher on all platforms on day one, they will not keep people buying games and DLCs on their store and this puts a lot more revenue at risk; it is far far far more likely that their revenue would be solely dependent on their first party games only and I do not think that day one releases on PC and other platforms at the same time would make up for everything else they put at high risk of losing / that they would lose.

I think common sense there will prevail, they have not been overly moronic in the last decade or so and doing such a decision when their business is doing better than ever (PS5 revenue being super high and operating income especially wrecking 4 previous generations combined is quite something)
 
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That GAAS push was culmination of stupidy, only helldivers2 worked, and was big success, for the very reason it wasnt made for "modern audience" aka women, like rest of those 15 games, those CEO's are so greedy they think that those 2% of females who play multiplayer shooters magically gonna turn into 30-50% and at the same time those types of games gonna be able to retain 98% of male audience who's preferences are blood/sex/brutality/gritty stuff :)

There is a reason romantic comedy genre is extremly different to ppv boxing/ufc events- they attract totally different crowd (spoilers, we straight men can tolerate watching romantic comedy only in one particular scenario- we getting sex right after :messenger_ok: ).
I'd argue Helldivers II isn't even the success they wanted or if they were constrained to that level of success they'd have wanted 5-10 games all doing those numbers.

All companies want a Fortnite level game which prints money. The sooner they realise that it's not happening because those sorts of successes happen naturally (Mario, Pokemon, Tony Hawk, Halo, Wii Sports, Guitar Hero, Minecraft, Roblox, GTA RP, PubG, Fortnite) the better off they will be. They won't stop chasing it though because they realise the market for 20 hour cinematic single player games is shrinking with every generation.

Playstation became a one trick pony and now that pony isn't nearly as popular as it once was. But there's hope with Astrobot. They can start to expand their Japanese studios with the money from two GaaS failures and get a good cadence of fun games from different genres to supplement their cinematic action games and push for a couple of GaaS games.
 
I'd argue Helldivers II isn't even the success they wanted or if they were constrained to that level of success they'd have wanted 5-10 games all doing those numbers.

All companies want a Fortnite level game which prints money. The sooner they realise that it's not happening because those sorts of successes happen naturally (Mario, Pokemon, Tony Hawk, Halo, Wii Sports, Guitar Hero, Minecraft, Roblox, GTA RP, PubG, Fortnite) the better off they will be. They won't stop chasing it though because they realise the market for 20 hour cinematic single player games is shrinking with every generation.

Playstation became a one trick pony and now that pony isn't nearly as popular as it once was. But there's hope with Astrobot. They can start to expand their Japanese studios with the money from two GaaS failures and get a good cadence of fun games from different genres to supplement their cinematic action games and push for a couple of GaaS games.
helldivers2 was crazy succesfull, easily in top1% of 1% of any multiplayer games launched. Over 450k ccu on steam.
Thats top27 of alltime including all juggernauts, even singleplayer games.

 
All companies want a Fortnite level game which prints money.
Where this delusion comes from?
Not everyone had to be GTA or CoD, there are place even for smaller AAA games. Same with live service games - there are plenty of space and niches for other games. Some games deliberately target smaller playerbase but game will fit their tastes better, like asian shooter gachas.

For example latest battle royale, that are not Fortnite or CoD, came out in 2021 and confidently sit in Steam top10 - Naraka Bladepoint. It's different from Fortnite/CoD/PUBG as it based on swords and not guns, but still popular.
Rules similar to SP games - just make a good game that not just reskinned clone and it'll be fine.

Modern gaas are session based games and sessions are quite short, and unlike MMO there is no player lock-in mechanics like excessive time-based grind. So a lot of people play many games simultaneously, depending on mood or current preferences, same as people play SP games of different genres.
 
As crazy as it sounds, when the Concord disaster was in full motion and the game was pulled, a game director (I think) tweeted he got a new job at SIE doing something else. So while the studio was in limbo at that time (and shut down a month later), somehow he still scored a new role at Sony. lol


Crazy, indeed. These companies have lost any contact with reality and that's why they take these decisions. It's a condition of mind akin to a mental desease.

All companies want a Fortnite level game which prints money

This is like saying that I want to fuck Sydney Sweeney. Fornite is a MONSTER produced by a combination of factors that can't be replicated. The same applies to GTA or Genshin Impact. Sony can't look at those and think "I wanna be one of those". Nope, it doesn't work that way.
 
This is like saying that I want to fuck Sydney Sweeney. Fornite is a MONSTER produced by a combination of factors that can't be replicated. The same applies to GTA or Genshin Impact. Sony can't look at those and think "I wanna be one of those". Nope, it doesn't work that way.
Kotick replicated it just fine with Warzone
And Tencent and Netease even ~selling~ work-for-hire how to convert IP into successful live service game (CoD mobile, Diablo Immortal, Marvel Rivals)

Its layman fantasies that those game are unique and can't be replicated. In reality quite a few guys have enough experience to get with 80% chance maybe not GTA level of success (Fortnite, Genshin) but at least GoW/Spiderman level of success (1bn per year live service game)
 
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Kotick replicated it just fine with Warzone
And Tencent and Netease even ~selling~ work-for-hire how to convert IP into successful live service game (CoD mobile, Diablo Immortal, Marvel Rivals)

Its layman fantasies that those game are unique and can't be replicated. In reality quite a few guys have enough experience to get with 90% chance maybe not GTA level of success (Fortnite, Genshin) but at least GoW/Spiderman level of success (1bn per year live service game)


There are many successful GaaS but what makes those superhits unique is that they became sort of "metagames". That model can't be pursued. It's something that happens by a variety of reasons, some of which aren't controlled by companies. They don't decide what people will love or not.

Helldivers is a more realistic and achievable prospect, relying mostly on good work.
 
There are many successful GaaS but what makes those superhits unique is that they became sort of "metagames". That model can't be pursued. It's something that happens by a variety of reasons, some of which aren't controlled by companies. They don't decide what people will love or not.
Almost every GaaS game is metagame. Just community is smaller.
It essential part of live service and also one of the reasons why they are so successful - even "SP" games are highly social and thus more attractive to masses, especially younger crowd. Many games deliberately promote out of game interactions and almost all of them have a network of Discord channels to deepen ties within community (that helps with player retention and longevity of the game)
 
Crazy, indeed. These companies have lost any contact with reality and that's why they take these decisions. It's a condition of mind akin to a mental desease.



This is like saying that I want to fuck Sydney Sweeney. Fornite is a MONSTER produced by a combination of factors that can't be replicated. The same applies to GTA or Genshin Impact. Sony can't look at those and think "I wanna be one of those". Nope, it doesn't work that way.
Tell that to Sony who threw 90% of their studios at 13 GaaS games all at the same time while ruining an entire generation in terms of not meeting a lot of their core fans expectations in the sort of games they expected after PS3&4.

Also Helldivers was 100% a huge hit when it launched for the first couple of months. But that is not what they want. It has 15x less players now on average on Steam. They want a GaaS that has those sorts of launch numbers for several years not several months.
 
They have Helldivers 2, MLB The Show, Gran Turismo 7, and Destiny 2.

Do all of these combined make as much as Fortnite, COD, or GTA Online do on PSN?

They could have invested the billions they've wasted on this crap on actual system sellers, but no, they need to chase the braindead trends.
 
I'll never understand the thought processes that led them to spending $3.7b on Bungie. I know their stated goal and, at face value, it makes sense. They wanted someone with live service experience to bolster their live service push.

But was Bungie really the best choice? By the time Sony acquired Bungie, Bungie had already repeatedly pissed off their Destiny playerbase with their increasingly scummy monetization practices, rampant microtransactions, content vaulting, and low effort recycled content seasons. That doesn't sound like a studio I'd entrust a major live service push to.
 
I'll never understand the thought processes that led them to spending $3.7b on Bungie. I know their stated goal and, at face value, it makes sense. They wanted someone with live service experience to bolster their live service push.

But was Bungie really the best choice? By the time Sony acquired Bungie, Bungie had already repeatedly pissed off their Destiny playerbase with their increasingly scummy monetization practices, rampant microtransactions, content vaulting, and low effort recycled content seasons. That doesn't sound like a studio I'd entrust a major live service push to.
I guess panic buying during the pandemic, same reason people were fighting over toilet paper at Costco.
 
I'll never understand the thought processes that led them to spending $3.7b on Bungie. I know their stated goal and, at face value, it makes sense. They wanted someone with live service experience to bolster their live service push.

But was Bungie really the best choice? By the time Sony acquired Bungie, Bungie had already repeatedly pissed off their Destiny playerbase with their increasingly scummy monetization practices, rampant microtransactions, content vaulting, and low effort recycled content seasons. That doesn't sound like a studio I'd entrust a major live service push to.
At that time, I think the only big MP third party company available to buy was Bungie. So Sony simply just ponied up to buy the biggest one. MS bought Activision, so they went ape shit in board rooms thinking MS was going to wall off COD from PS. And if there's one company that loves being owned or doing major partnership deals is Bungie. They'll flip around to whomever offers them the most money.

All the other big MP/GAAS games are owned by giant gaming companies way bigger than Bungie (including UBI which in early 2022 was worth way more than $3.6B). So Sony wasnt going to spend that much.

They also wanted a GAAS shooter franchise since Sony has none going on (last one is KZ Shadowfall at PS4 launch), so they wanted to right away hop into shooter money.

And teasing all tech companies, interest/loan rates were rock bottom. Rates didnt start skyrocketing till Feb or March 2022 to around late 2023. So when Sony bought them, rates were at historic lows. So low, my variable mortgage was at 1.15%. So you got companies amped up buying other companies (check out Embracers acquisition history from around 2018-2022), Sony buys Bungie, MS buys Bethesda and Activision. All during low rates.

Everyone thought it was way too much to begin with, but a key problem is Bungie is a one trick pony at any given time. Halo with MS, and Destiny on their own. Anything else they make is few and far between or junk (Marathon). So Sony was basically spending a ton of money on an all eggs in one basket purchase. If Destiny was firing on all cylinders and Destiny 3 was coming out doing great then perhaps it could be worth it.

Instead, D2 immediately fell off right when they bought them, only thing they got going on otherwise is D2 DLC for 3 years and the studio is shedding people or had a small number transferred over to make a new game under a different studio since Sony doesnt even want it associated with the Bungie name. And by the time delayed Marathon comes out, it'll be 4 years living off D2 DLC packs. That is not worth $3.6B.

If Sony was in the buying mood with a pocket of cash, they should had bought up SP studios or just expanded their own SIE studios to focus on what they do best. All these new GAAS service games and studios they've been making or buying the past 4-5 years have been junk except for Helldivers 2. And Helldivers 2 was a sequel so it would had surely naturally come anyway.

Through an interpreter, Lin Tao admitted Sony's live-service push is "not entirely going smoothly". The CFO cited "Last year Concord [shut down], and this year Marathon was postponed, so somewhat negative news has been coming out".
You can tell Sony is shitting bricks at their GAAS performance. It's very rare you'll get them to admit mistakes. But if the CFO is publicly stating it (even in the most muted way possible saying Concord and Marathon are "somewhat" negative news), you know they are getting heat and cant hide disappointments forever. Sometimes you just got to man up.
 
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