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Football Thread 2012/13 |OT3| Two-sided triangles

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AndresON777

shooting blanks
elsk delivering tonite. I love that hatred of madrid, utd and cr7.


----when Iniesta is healthy and in form I think he could be the 2nd best player in the world. Its amazing how great you have to be to overcome a sorry ass JT as your keeper.
 

elsk

Banned
elsk, so what would Ronaldo have to accomplish for him to become the second best player in the world, at least in your eyes?

He would have, at least, to do what Robben did in the 09/10 season. Bring his team, that is much better than the Bayern team back then, to the CL final and win the cup and league. Get to the final of the WC with Portugal would be a good indicator too.

For me, right now, he is not something much bigger than Ribéry. Only more consistent.
Real Madrid works for him to score just like Bayern worked for Gomez to score, the number of goals don't really tell you everything.
 

FootballFan

Member
Elsk I think I am going to have to
dis
agree with you. Ronaldo has to be #2. Iniesta is the only player I can see that someone can have an argument for, and even then it would need to be one hell of an argument.

Ronaldo is unlucky to be playing at the same time as Messi, unfortunately for him Messi is 2 years younger as well so chances are Ronaldo will start playing worse before Messi does.

Robben was fantastic that season with Bayern though.
 

jtb

Banned
He would have, at least, to do what Robben did in the 09/10 season. Bring his team, that is much better than the Bayern team back then, to the CL final and win the cup and league. Get to the final of the WC with Portugal would be a good indicator too.

For me, right now, he is not something much bigger than Ribéry. Only more consistent.
Real Madrid works for him to score just like Bayern worked for Gomez to score, the number of goals don't really tell you everything.

so are you saying he got worse from his Manchester United days? because that's basically what he did in 07-08, then again in 08-09... And look at the goals he scores; it's not just 150 tap ins from the Real Madrid midfield. Hell, they use him even less as a direct target man than United did.

Anyways, we all know Sneijder should've won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. Him or Milito. That Inter team was incredible and would have beaten any top team today. Robben isn't even in the picture for me.
 

elsk

Banned
Anyways, we all know Sneijder should've won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. Him or Milito. That Inter team was incredible and would have beaten any top team today. Robben isn't even in the picture for me.

Compare Bayern 09/10 squad with Inter 09/10 squad. I wasn't even mad when we lost that final, it was logical. Reaching the CL final and winning the domestic double with that squad is pure Robben.

Inter was a perfect working machine made by Mou. I think they were -much- better than Mou's Real Madrid, I'm not taking merit away from Milito and specially Sneijder but if they were asking for the best player of 09/10 season that was Robben's trophy.
 

pulga

Banned
Compare Bayern 09/10 squad with Inter 09/10 squad. I wasn't even mad when we lost that final, it was logical. Reaching the CL final and winning the domestic double with that squad is pure Robben.

So basically what youre saying is that Ronaldo has to win the treble, the WC, Ballon d'Or, and wank your dog to be considered second best?

Hell, if he did all that id consider him THE best :lol :lol
 

Meier

Member
Vast media conspiracy or not, I think you're the only person on earth (except maybe Bendtner) who doesn't think CR7 is #2 at worst, elsk. I will say I am always impressed by how strongly you stick to your convictions. An admirable, if slightly insane, trait. ;)
 
so are you saying he got worse from his Manchester United days? because that's basically what he did in 07-08, then again in 08-09... And look at the goals he scores; it's not just 150 tap ins from the Real Madrid midfield. Hell, they use him even less as a direct target man than United did.

Anyways, we all know Sneijder should've won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. Him or Milito. That Inter team was incredible and would have beaten any top team today. Robben isn't even in the picture for me.

Even if we look at last year. Ronaldo won the league, lost in the cup to the team lead by the best player in the world and was a penalty shootout away from being in the CL final. Even by Elsk's own criteria Ronaldo is almost there.
 

elsk

Banned
Vast media conspiracy or not, I think you're the only person on earth (except maybe Bendtner) who doesn't think CR7 is #2 at worst, elsk. I will say I am always impressed by how strongly you stick to your convictions. An admirable, if slightly insane, trait. ;)

Haha, thanks Meier :)

Even if we look at last year. Ronaldo won the league, lost in the cup to the team lead by the best player in the world and was a penalty shootout away from being in the CL final. Even by Elsk's own criteria Ronaldo is almost there.

Almost. He's not even on Robben 09/10 level yet.

So basically what youre saying is that Ronaldo has to win the treble, the WC, Ballon d'Or, and wank your dog to be considered second best?

Hell, if he did all that id consider him THE best :lol :lol

Well, if Robben did all that and wasn't even considered as "second best", why CR7 should be considered second best without doing all that?
 

pulga

Banned
Even if we look at last year. Ronaldo won the league, lost in the cup to the team lead by the best player in the world and was a penalty shootout away from being in the CL final. Even by Elsk's own criteria Ronaldo is almost there.

Made it pretty far in the Euros, too. More than anyone thought they would. But you know, Robben and co. imploded.
 

AndresON777

shooting blanks
Anyways, we all know Sneijder should've won the Ballon D'Or in 2010. Him or Milito. That Inter team was incredible and would have beaten any top team today. Robben isn't even in the picture for me.

disagree. If Barça had a decent RB and pretty much any top half of la liga keeper they would crush that team. Also competent linesmen wouldnt hurt. Also julio cesar is shit.
 
Made it pretty far in the Euros, too. More than anyone thought they would. But you know, Robben and co. imploded.

Lol, I forgot they thought it was a good idea to let Bruno Alves take a penalty. Bruno Alves is best left to do what he does best, injure the opposition. Makes quite a tandem with Pepe, I gotta say.
 

jtb

Banned
Well, if Robben did all that and wasn't even considered as "second best", why CR7 should be considered second best without doing all that?

Just to be clear, in the voting for the 09-10 Ballon D'Or, Ronaldo wasn't even in the top 3 so it appears the media (or whoever votes on those things) agreed with you. It was Messi, Xavi, Iniesta. And when Ronaldo stepped up in Europe (and Robben crashed out in the first knockout round) the next seasons, Ronaldo was once again the 2nd best player in the world.

disagree. If Barça had a decent RB and pretty much any top half of la liga keeper they would crush that team. Also competent linesmen wouldnt hurt. Also julio cesar is shit.

Dani Alves? regardless, Barca faced them and they lost. And for all the moaning about Milito's offside goal, Pique's was too. And Motta shouldn't have been sent off. And the volcano changed everything, etc. etc. etc.
 

Meier

Member
Aguero is apparently considering playing next week against Peru.. Mancini is supposedly furious about it. Cripes, please don't get further injured, Kun!
 

AndresON777

shooting blanks
Just to be clear, in the voting for the 09-10 Ballon D'Or, Ronaldo wasn't even in the top 3 so it appears the media (or whoever votes on those things) agreed with you. It was Messi, Xavi, Iniesta. And when Ronaldo stepped up in Europe (and Robben crashed out in the first knockout round) the next seasons, Ronaldo was once again the 2nd best player in the world.



Dani Alves? regardless, Barca faced them and they lost. And for all the moaning about Milito's offside goal, Pique's was too. And Motta shouldn't have been sent off. And the volcano changed everything, etc. etc. etc.

Alves cant defend he should play in Alexis' spot. Also the Bojan goal shouldve counted.

ps Cesc sucks on a big club ;P


---Peru is actually a decent team but they dont need Kun to beat them
 

elsk

Banned
@Timo_44:
A17n9pbCQAAXPPT.jpg


Don't worry, be ukrainian.

He's awesome.
 

FootballFan

Member
Dani Alves? regardless, Barca faced them and they lost. And for all the moaning about Milito's offside goal, Pique's was too. And Motta shouldn't have been sent off. And the volcano changed everything, etc. etc. etc.

Being eliminated by them doesn't make them better, unless you lose continuously. Everton is better than United all of a sudden because of their great performance? Doubt it. It took 130% of effort plus everything Inter had to get past Barca. I think todays Madrid, Barca or maybe even Bayern would whoop them.

What's next, Greece was the best international team in 2004 and can beat Spain from today? One thing you can't forget, its the champions league. United can get knocked out in the group stages by Basel. Messi, Robben, CRonaldo can all screw up crucial penalties, Chelsea can turn around a dreadful season and come back from 3-1 down in the first leg to win the CL, Rubin Kazan can and did beat Barca etc anything can happen.

edit
This is not to take away from Inters performance, they did a great job defending, but everyone remembers it because it was so damn hard to pull it off and they barely managed to do it. If Inter had been doing that all season noone would have been surprised that they eliminated Barca, but that wasn't the case, people expected Barca to make it through and Inter pulled off a performance of a lifetime.
 

elsk

Banned
I do think Mou's Inter deserved to win the CL. They were the best team back then, on the same level as Barcelona. As much as I hate them, I can't say Bayern or anyone else deserved to win that cup more than them based on how good their team was back then.
 

rodvik

Member
Speaking of CRonaldo, I am blanking. Who were United playing when he scored that amazing header taken at full sprint and nearly knocked himself out? I thought it was Roma but my google fu is weak.
 
There's 2 irreplaceable players in the world, that's Ronaldo and Messi.

Within some teams, there are other ones, like Iniesta on Barça, that are pretty much irreplaceable considering the team's vision, playstyle, and general philosophy. Right now, no one could do it like Iniesta does it in Barça. No one has had the time at the club to embrace their philosophy, and honestly, not many have Iniesta's quality to begin with.

Outside of these cases, I could see Messi being irreplaceable anywhere in the world. He has not proven himself in different conditions, but it's by his choice of staying with Barça. But he's honestly good and would do amazing in any top team. Ronaldo has proven himself in 2 clubs, with nearly every season outdoing himself, save for 2 seasons I believe, out of like what, 8.

They play in a way that's beyond the norm. Everyone else does something that's been done before by many players. These 2 guys do something that hasn't been done before, or has been done 50 years ago, when football was another game and games ended with ridiculous scores.

Messi is a beast that scored like what, 70 goals for Barça last season. Ronaldo 60, with a few games less. Ronaldo beat the record for goals scored in La Liga 2 seasons ago. This season, Ronaldo added another 5 from that, 45, and Messi, even more incredibly, added another 10, scoring 50. Messi scored 5 in a CL game, an all time record. Ronaldo scored against every team last season in La Liga, yet another all-time record. They've performed consistently for at least 5 years, improving nearly each year their stats. Other people (including you know who for RM and then BM) have great seasons, some have it one year, some have it for 5 years straight. These 2 guys have incredible seasons year after year, and then on top of that seasons that are above nearly anything done previously on football. That's the difference.

Against facts there are no arguments on the Robben case.
 

FootballFan

Member
There's 2 irreplaceable players in the world, that's Ronaldo and Messi.

Within some teams, there are other ones, like Iniesta on Barça, that are pretty much irreplaceable considering the team's vision, playstyle, and general philosophy. Right now, no one could do it like Iniesta does it in Barça. No one has had the time at the club to embrace their philosophy, and honestly, not many have Iniesta's quality to begin with.

Outside of these cases, I could see Messi being irreplaceable anywhere in the world. He has not proven himself in different conditions, but it's by his choice of staying with Barça. But he's honestly good and would do amazing in any top team. Ronaldo has proven himself in 2 clubs, with nearly every season outdoing himself, save for 2 seasons I believe, out of like what, 8.

They play in a way that's beyond the norm. Everyone else does something that's been done before by many players. These 2 guys do something that hasn't been done before, or has been done 50 years ago, when football was another game and games ended with ridiculous scores.

Messi is a beast that scored like what, 70 goals for Barça last season. Ronaldo 60, with a few games less. Ronaldo beat the record for goals scored in La Liga 2 seasons ago. This season, Ronaldo added another 5 from that, 45, and Messi, even more incredibly, added another 10, scoring 50. Messi scored 5 in a CL game, an all time record. Ronaldo scored against every team last season in La Liga, yet another all-time record.

Against facts there are no arguments.

Very good post. Messi also is the first to be the top scorer in the CL 4 seasons in a row, and first person to get 14 goals in 1 CL campaign(iirc). Its crazy what they both do, whether it's Ronaldos 150 goals in 149 games or Messis incredible 73 goals 28 assists(101 goals involvement..) last season.

Ugh international football for 2 weeks. yawn
 

Kozak

Banned
So Ronaldo is not the 2nd best because there are players who when on their best form and ONLY when on their best form are better?

What a load of rubbish. You're tripping Elsk. Ronaldo has done it on a rainy night at the Britannia, Robben couldn't.
 

AndresON777

shooting blanks
I guess its cos Im south american and now I get conmebol qualifiers for free on bein sport but 2 days of qualfier matches has me stoked =)
 
I guess its cos Im south american and now I get conmebol qualifiers for free on bein sport but 2 days of qualfier matches has me stoked =)

I love internationals as well. I get super nervous watching the national team, even when we play minnows. It just feels like the stakes are so much higher than the average league match. I mean the World Cup only comes around once every four years.
 

AndresON777

shooting blanks
I love internationals as well. I get super nervous watching the national team, even when we play minnows. It just feels like the stakes are so much higher than the average league match. I mean the World Cup only comes around once every four years.

Yeah I havnt watched a conmebol qualifier in 8 years lol. shit gets my blood pressure up and we usually have to go to a colombian restaurant or bar. Friday I'll be at work but one of my bosses is colombian too.

it reminds me of those midweek champions league games because I cant drink. I literally broke a sweat in the chelsea barça return leg.
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/399168_483091178382480_1868587347_n.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
50m, and no striker. Hell, we had 20-30(?)m from selling players too.
[quote="AndresON777, post: 41760974"]I went from being an inter hater to an inter fan <3[/QUOTE]

I went from liking you to hating you in the same post.

[quote="qindarka, post: 41761834"]
Also, Zidane didn;t help Juventus to any CL title anyway.[/QUOTE]

Well it's not like we crashed out in the group stages with Zidane!!! :p

[quote="elsk, post: 41768066"]I do think Mou's Inter deserved to win the CL. They were the best team back then, on the same level as Barcelona. As much as I hate them, I can't say Bayern or anyone else deserved to win that cup more than them based on how good their team was back then.[/QUOTE]

Chelsea deserved it more IMO. Inter played negative football with Eto'o, Millito, Wesley and Balotelli just for the hell of it. Chelsea, against all odds, managed to knockout all the big teams.
 
Chelsea deserved it more IMO. Inter played negative football with Eto'o, Millito, Wesley and Balotelli just for the hell of it. Chelsea, against all odds, managed to knockout all the big teams.

Are you saying that Chelsea didn't play negative football?
 

PJX

Member
Chelsea deserved it more IMO. Inter played negative football with Eto'o, Millito, Wesley and Balotelli just for the hell of it. Chelsea, against all odds, managed to knockout all the big teams.

But Chelsea played the same negative football that you are accusing Inter of playing.
 

AndresON777

shooting blanks
50m, and no striker. Hell, we had 20-30(?)m from selling players too.


I went from liking you to hating you in the same post.



Well it's not like we crashed out in the group stages with Zidane!!! :p



Chelsea deserved it more IMO. Inter played negative football with Eto'o, Millito, Wesley and Balotelli just for the hell of it. Chelsea, against all odds, managed to knockout all the big teams.

lol the national team supercedes all club allegiances. If Falcao goes to RM I have to commit seppuku :|
 
Do Arsenal fans know that Bergkamp and Henry both failed to score goals in the beginning of their first season for Arsenal? Bergkamp and Henry both scored their first goals in mid september vs Southampton.



Arsenal play Southampton on the 15th, which is mid September.



I wonder if Giruod will follow in the footsteps of Bergkamp and Henry.
 

pulga

Banned
There's 2 irreplaceable players in the world, that's Ronaldo and Messi.

Within some teams, there are other ones, like Iniesta on Barça, that are pretty much irreplaceable considering the team's vision, playstyle, and general philosophy. Right now, no one could do it like Iniesta does it in Barça. No one has had the time at the club to embrace their philosophy, and honestly, not many have Iniesta's quality to begin with.

Outside of these cases, I could see Messi being irreplaceable anywhere in the world. He has not proven himself in different conditions, but it's by his choice of staying with Barça. But he's honestly good and would do amazing in any top team. Ronaldo has proven himself in 2 clubs, with nearly every season outdoing himself, save for 2 seasons I believe, out of like what, 8.

They play in a way that's beyond the norm. Everyone else does something that's been done before by many players. These 2 guys do something that hasn't been done before, or has been done 50 years ago, when football was another game and games ended with ridiculous scores.

Messi is a beast that scored like what, 70 goals for Barça last season. Ronaldo 60, with a few games less. Ronaldo beat the record for goals scored in La Liga 2 seasons ago. This season, Ronaldo added another 5 from that, 45, and Messi, even more incredibly, added another 10, scoring 50. Messi scored 5 in a CL game, an all time record. Ronaldo scored against every team last season in La Liga, yet another all-time record. They've performed consistently for at least 5 years, improving nearly each year their stats. Other people (including you know who for RM and then BM) have great seasons, some have it one year, some have it for 5 years straight. These 2 guys have incredible seasons year after year, and then on top of that seasons that are above nearly anything done previously on football. That's the difference.

Against facts there are no arguments on the Robben case.

:bow This. Both are phenoms we are unlikely to ever witness any time soon, if not ever.
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
I think I posted about it before, but IMO, Chelsea had no choice. Many of their players were suspended and their strikers are shit.

Eto'o a wingback, REALLY?

Edit:typos sorry
 

Zabojnik

Member
Man, judging from the reactions on Juve's forums after the first couple of matches, Giovinco is going to have a hard time helping the various factions within our fandom finding any sort of consensus about him. It's a love or love to hate thing at this precise point in time. The ones that adored him as a youngster (guilty as charged!) are hoping / are convinced that he's finally on his way to becoming the next best thing after Messi. The ones that 'hate' him and would've gladly left him at Parma, are waiting for the first fatal mistake, the first bad performance to crucify him and go 'TOLD YOU SO!!!' on everybody else.

Personally, I wish everybody would just shut the fuck up and let him acclimate to the old/new enviornment and Conte's tactics. He's been playing under tremendous pressure and it showed in these first few matches. It's pretty clear to me that he and Conte have yet to figure out what his exact role should be in what seems to have become our new default formation (3-5-2), but I'm confident he'll get there in time. Unless you're playing like Barcelona, a striker of his stature (164cm) is going to have a hard time against defenders that have 30 centimeters and 30 kilograms on him. However, I think he has the technical ability to more than compensate for his physical shortcomings. If, I repeat, if he's given time to find his footing.

I'm pretty sure that's how Conte sees it too, otherwise he wouldn't have been so eager to request his immediate return to base. Hopefully Seba's matured enough to understand and be ready to face the challanges and the pressure that awaits him.

Come on Atomic Ant, you have my full support!

attachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D49826%26stc%3D1%26d%3D1343933229
 

FootballFan

Member
It's not hard to see where the 'Ant' part of the nickname comes from. :p

formicaatomica.png

Giaccherini certainly is not a giant either, though still bigger than Giovinco. Pablo Piatti(5'3 or 160cm) and Buonanotte(5'3 or 160cm) are tiny too. Cheaper versions of Messi, left footed, short, good dribblers and Argentinian.
 
I would suck John Terry's cock for an oil-rich businessman to buy my club.

I wouldn't and I certainly don't want that at United. What I do want is proper fan ownership, be it like Barca or through the stock exchange, though there are downsides to both.

We are in a lucky position with revenue though so could stop compete like this.

Too many examples of clubs getting done in by rich owners and mis-management of funds leading to unsustainable business models.
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
Lorenzo Insigne is even shorter. Remember the name!

Come on Atomic Ant, you have my full support!

Wait, there's a faction that hates our homegrown Juvinco? He may not be Il top player, but fuck me if he isn't a FANTASTIC Serie A player. We shat in his mouth with Ranieri, it was to be expected that he spat some of that shit back with Parma.

His performance blew my mind last week, he scored two goals, assisted one, tracked back and did everything right.
 

FootballFan

Member
Lorenzo Insigne is even shorter. Remember the name!

I was genuinely surprised when my Napolitan friend told me Insigne was only 21. Surprised a bigger club didn't pick him up earlier. (also he is not shorter than Buonanotte and P.Piatti)

edit
I see he always belonged to Napoli, was just on loan.
 

Carbonox

Member
Newcastle want Tom Ince. I fail to see the point considering we have 5-6 wingers, unless we're looking to replace Obertan with Ince.
 
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