Support NeoGAF

[CrustyBritches]

Pubs are paid to put their games on Game Pass, and the games remain for sale elsewhere. 1st-party games aside, most titles are only on the services(GP and PS+/PSNow) for a limited time. Works extremely well in the case of games that already experienced their launch sales, or with incoming sequels. It's like getting paid for advertising your game.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The issue is imo pubs/studios who puts their games on a rental service on day one just to get a quick buck and not caring about the overall impact this will have on how consumers approach gaming as a whole. More and more gamers will get used to not buying games. Less profit = less quality AAA games = more MTX injected into games = half assed releases like infinite will increase.

Every person with a quarter-functioning brain has been saying that, thank God Sony is still competent in that regard and knows that perceived quality is valued to their brand as a whole.

 

[Hezekiah]

I mean..the main problem is something we're witnessing right now: People saying they will unsubscribe because there's no new AAA title to play in there.

That also brings 2 issues:

- Short-term: MS will try to have a constant flow of high-budgeted content to be there so that people never feel like they should unsubscribe and their studios could feel completely burned out after a few years;
- Long-term: If these subscription models are indeed the future...what if MS starts releasing games in...chapters like Life Is Strange so that there's always a flow of content? Imagine Gears 6 or 7 releasing in chunks instead of full paid games like right now. I'm not saying now but in 10 or 15 years.

This is something i fear. Hopefully releasing games as products never stops being a thing. Turning games into services, even single player experiences won't be good for anyone...including us.

Still too soon to say this.

Yeah because even then Matt Booty has said he wants them to be putting out a AAA game every quarter. So I can subscribe for a month and then unsubscribe, and wait for the next thing.

So for me, I finished Halo Infinite in a couple of weeks back in December and then unsubscribed. Now that Starfield has been delayed and there is nothing else coming, I won't sub again until next year - apart from maybe one month to play Atomic Heart.

 

[GHG]

It is considered concern trolling because the loudest complainers aren't even customers of the service or owners of the platform. It is a service. If you don't like the service don't subscribe. If enough people don't sub it will end and those complainers will find their happiness. Just sit back and watch it fail if it is so bad. Concerns for the actual customers rings quite hollow.

Got any method of quantifying this? Especially since you're usually so quick to tell everyone that you can subscribe to the service without needing to own an Xbox console. Or does that not count anymore for the purposes of handwaving this discussion?

 

[BennyBlanco]

I do wonder if Microsoft will adopt Sony's path of not releasing their games immediately, would that not be a better way to sustain the service?

I think they will do what they did with FH5

Let you play it a few days earlier if you care enough to buy the season pass

 

[GHG]

Lucky Xbox games aren't 3 minutes long and easy to pirate huh

In the long run it's more an issue of shifting mindsets and expectations, that's why the music comparison was drawn.

 

[DragonNCM]

Actually GP made me get more games then usual.

 

[dcmk7]

Got any method of quantifying this? Especially since you're usually so quick to tell everyone that you can subscribe to the service without needing to own an Xbox console. Or does that not count anymore for the purposes of handwaving this discussion?

I'm sure he doesn't come here for the gaming news.

 

[cireza]

Never subscribed to any music service. I buy my CDs and make sure the groups I like get the money.

 

[Klayzer]

In the long run it's more an issue of shifting mindsets and expectations, that's why the music comparison was drawn.

Fucking thank you. Hell, its already happening. If a third party game doesn't launch day one on Gamespass, the howling starts.

 

[Vognerful]

Ed Fries hasn't work in MS since 2004, how his insight can be better than Nadella or Spencer whom fully support the project?

Remember when. That Sony ex executive said that current AAA game development is not sustainable?

It remains to be seen what the different methods will yield for both companies.

 

[Three]

MCC for PC was done single game at a time cause they were actively porting each game with improvements between releases. They were maintaining very active development blogs. If they had waited to get them all ready before releasing, that would have been a year or two more after they originally started.

Have a hard time believing 3 months makes a huge difference in chronological order. Even if so it would have been a year max. They did that for infinite already and that still gets piecemeal "Seasons" for content. If they were releasing it all in one they could have maintained a single set release date with a single price but gamepass made it more beneficial to release 1 every quarter because they are pushing subs not sales.

 

[adamsapple]

Have a hard time believing 3 months makes a huge difference. Even if so it would have been a year max. They did that for infinite already and that still gets piecemeal "Seasons" for content. If they were releasing it all in one they could have maintained a single set release date with a single price but gamepass made it more beneficial to release 1 every quarter because they are pushing subs not sales.

If that were the case they would have released the games piece meal on Series S and X with the enhancements, but that was not the case.

We're just doing baseless speculation at this point.

Till date, not a single released game has been compromised for the sake of game pass. Even your comment on Infinite. Third/first games have been doing MP Seasons with content drops for years now, that also has nothing to do with game pass or PS+.

 

[Vognerful]

Ingham leaves out the fact that that same global recorded music industry had shrunk by 73% between 2001 and 2011. Interestingly streaming has saved the record industry - but not physical media and record stores. The resurgence of vinyl has only slowed down the decline. A substantial section of the recoded music revenues in the past went to the retail business, now those profits go to record labels and streaming services. Tens of thousands (or even hundreds of thousands) of jobs gone.

The existence of twitch streams as will as direct subscription to Patreon has also helped many music artists. People have to adopt to changing economics and technology.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Remember when. That Sony ex executive said that current AAA game development is not sustainable?

It remains to be seen what the different methods will yield for both companies.

You know what will happen? AAA games will end up being made in China, just like everything else. Now who jumps first to establish a legit studio there will be pumping games like crazy in nearly an annual rate.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Fucking thank you. Hell, its already happening. If a third party game doesn't launch day one on Gamespass, the howling starts.

Can you provide receipts for a specific 3rd-party game that people "howled" about not being on Game Pass day 1? I don't believe there's any expectation of 3rd-party games being day 1. I've seen people say they'll wait until it's on GP, but that's a whole different subject.

 

[Vognerful]

You know what will happen? AAA games will end up being made in China, just like everything else. Now who jumps first to establish a legit studio there will be pumping games like crazy in nearly an annual rate.

India is actually cheaper and have way more experienced devs than china. If I am mistaken china is getting a bit more expensive than some manufacturers want it to be; it is just the infrastructure and experience play to their side

I. Fact china is now looking at Africa to use cheap labor and resources.

 

[Vognerful]

Can you provide receipts for a specific 3rd-party game that people "howled" about not being on Game Pass day 1? I don't believe there's any expectation of 3rd-party games being day 1. I've seen people say they'll wait until it's on GP, but that's a whole different subject.

Elden Ring

/s

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I don't know. If Microsoft didn't do this then it would have been someone else because music, movies, and television has gone this route. Hell, even software in a lot of cases. This is where not just the industry is headed but most all forms of media, so instead of being fearful of what it would mean down the road, maybe just embrace it for what it is. I can tell you that because of Game Pass, I have tried and beat a ton of games that I'd never have given the time of day to because there was a monetary barrier for entry that I wasn't willing to pay in order to simply try the videogame and see if I liked it. And many of those games I ended up buying DLC for, etc.

Forza Horizon 4 was my first Forza Horizon game. MS included that with Game Pass and to date I bought all the DLC and car packs for it, that's money MS or the dev never would have saw from me had it not been for Game Pass. The idea of an open world arcade racer was not something I was interested in until I could play it for free and realized like "holy shit" this game is amazing. 200+ hours later and $60+ in DLC and car packs, and I'm not doing the same with FH5.

 

[DarkMage619]

Thanks. Customers and potential customers will comment on the service as they please. Im pretty sure you have given your opinions on things you don't own or subscribe to. Pass on the gatekeeping.

As proven on this site time and time again you do not need to own or even know about what you are talking about to be able to opine. I'm sure that all the Game pass subscribers appreciate your concern for their well being. I tend to not comment on things I don't own or use but I never claimed to be as altruistic as you.

 

[dcmk7]

As proven on this site time and time again you do not need to own or even know about what you are talking about to be able to opine. I'm sure that all the Game pass subscribers appreciate your concern for their well being. I tend to not comment on things I don't own or use but I never claimed to be as altruistic as you.

Is a former Xbox exec allowed to voice his concerns? Is that ok with you?

 

[DarkMage619]

Got any method of quantifying this? Especially since you're usually so quick to tell everyone that you can subscribe to the service without needing to own an Xbox console. Or does that not count anymore for the purposes of handwaving this discussion?

I use this forum to provide a sample size for the poll. I have told no one to subscribe to anything. In fact I said in this very thread that if you don't like the service DONT subscribe. If people don't sub it will die and some people will get their wish. There is no need to hand wave anything, people can speak with their wallets. The same applies to Xbox as a whole. Don't buy it if you don't like it. Pretty simple actually.

 

[Klayzer]

As proven on this site time and time again you do not need to own or even know about what you are talking about to be able to opine. I'm sure that all the Game pass subscribers appreciate your concern for their well being. I tend to not comment on things I don't own or use but I never claimed to be as altruistic as you.

So you have given your opinions as well. Also proven on this site, Xbox fans will always try to gatekeep, or play the victim card when it comes to MS criticism.

 

[GHG]

As proven on this site time and time again you do not need to own or even know about what you are talking about to be able to opine. I'm sure that all the Game pass subscribers appreciate your concern for their well being. I tend to not comment on things I don't own or use but I never claimed to be as altruistic as you.

Nobody gives a shit about your or other gamepass subscribers' well-being. That's not what this is about. What's happening is a discussion about the service and it's (and other similar services) impact on the industry as a whole.

If you don't like the discussion that's taking place then you can leave the thread.

 

[Orbital2060]

The music industry was fucked first by the consolidation that happened in the late 90s, with (1) Sony buying the CBS record label from CBS before other deals like BMG buying RCA records from NBC.

And then (2) Napster happened.

Those are the two main factors for the changes in the music business imo.

Wasnt Apple Music before Spotify? I dont think Spotify is the problem, more like a sign of the times.

But yeah the most important thing is to always remember that you are in the entertainment industry and not to hire too many suits. Or in Microsofts case, Im worried after Spencer and a lot of the other team members are retired and everything is running smoothly that the top brass wont hire some business executives and sell games like they would sell software solutions to businesses.

 

[Klayzer]

Is a former Xbox exec allowed to voice his concerns? Is that ok with you?

He had the audacity to have an opinion contrary to the pr machine.

 

[IFireflyl]

Do you agree that the global music revenue numbers were correct though? Your contention is the cause of the revenue split? Just so I get your position correct firstly.

You don't need my position. Provide proof that revenue decrease is due to piracy and I'll change my tune. MPAA and RIAA have been banging this drum since the 90s with zero actual evidence to show that pirated copies equates to a loss of sales. If I were never going to buy a CD because there was only one song I wanted which wasn't worth $15 to me, but then I found I could pirate the CD, RIAA would say that I cost them a sale. That's an incorrect claim since I was never going to pay $15 for the CD.

Why did you then use the assumption that it's a per time/download revenue model that comes purely from the 15$ a month or what not.

I just used an example. As I said, we don't know what model they are using, but regardless it doesn't change the outcome. See my response below for clarification.

As others have mentioned it's sometimes a per download model, sometimes an upfront fee, sometimes based on engagement and sometimes a combination. Its fundamentally is just arbitrage that MS is doing. Also you guy seems to have the assumption that the pool of money that MS is committing to getting content onto GP has to come out of the GP subscription revenue stream; where it really doesn't and imo; it won't.

For example. Xbox says GP increases MAU by 20% Xbox predicts that that 20% increased users buy 50% as much DLC/Fortnite Bucks/Fifa Points as their current audience. Xbox now has 10% more revenue from DLC etc as well as the GP subscription fees from those 20%. Thats the maths that Xbox is playing with. It might be a shitty margin for them but ehh, not my issue.

And either way my point stands: it's a worse business model for the industry although it is better for consumers. Developers are making less money in unit sales under a subscription model. In fact, one could argue that the subscription model is also worse for consumers in that this business model essentially forces developers to add/increase DLC content to make up for lack of game sales via the subscription model.

It's not a split though imo. Microsoft pay the publisher/devs a set fee for limited time rental license of their game/s.

I really doubt that they are paying a per download fee. They negotiate a price and that is it. If it was a bad deal, then nonody would be accepting it. They are not holding guns to peoples heads

See my comment above. Even with this being the case the subscription model is worse for developers than actually selling the full game. The only exception to this would be low-budget/indie-type games that maybe wouldn't sell well on their own, but the developers can get traction via the subscription model. But for AAA games (for example, Final Fantasy XVI) the subscription model would be worse for them.

 

[cormack12]

 

[Popup]

 

[JTCx]

Developers doing tours!

 

[Klayzer]

Nobody gives a shit about your or other gamepass subscribers' well-being. That's not what this is about. What's happening is a discussion about the service and it's (and other similar services) impact on the industry as a whole.

If you don't like the discussion that's taking place then you can leave the thread.

Deflect and derail. That's the usual game plan by them. They're only here for affirmation, not any conversations.

 

[Hobbygaming]

MS had games with monetization before Game pass though. Pretty sure Sony does too and they don't have Game pass at all. What is your evidence Game pass is the cause?

I'm not saying it has happened, I'm saying we'll have to see if it affects game design

 

[reksveks]

You know what will happen? AAA games will end up being made in China, just like everything else. Now who jumps first to establish a legit studio there will be pumping games like crazy in nearly an annual rate.

India is actually cheaper and have way more experienced devs than china. If I am mistaken china is getting a bit more expensive than some manufacturers want it to be; it is just the infrastructure and experience play to their side

I. Fact china is now looking at Africa to use cheap labor and resources.

Doesn't Sony already have a Malaysian studio also yeah, India already has a couple of studios just from Ubisoft (Pune and Mumbai)

 

[Trogdor1123]

Gamepass is nice for me. I have an Xbox but if a game isn't on gamepass, I just don't play it.

I'm sure it's not helpful for the industry when people like me make the move like that

 

[adamsapple]

So you have given your opinions as well. Also proven on this site, Xbox fans will always try to gatekeep, or play the victim card when it comes to MS criticism.

My dude why are you always making such aggressive posts about "Xbox duders" and whatnot, lol. Same in the Starfield delay topic, same in the Spider Man topic.

Relax a bit.

 

[ReBurn]

The GamePass route will result in a "SpotiFlex"-like situation, were people get obsessed of (day 1) games coming to the platform, cause they don't want to buy games - like in the good ol' days.

Taking a look at the top played artists on Spotify and the most watched movies and shows on Netflix, gives a very good picture of what we have in store for a 100% sub-based future.

I HAVE CONCERNS!

People liking what I don't think they should like is a huge concern.

 

[Saber]

Tbh I'm kinda worried about the quality of the games resulting on these services.

Like, people complained and criticized Battlefield(and rightly so) for its poorly development and being total mess of a game. But as soon as rumor came out saying this game would be going to Gamepass people were like "oh cool, at least I won't pay for this game". Felt to me people are more willing to play trashy broken games as long they were on their services, as if they aren't paying for anything. Not only that, it sounds to me as a green light for games to being like that.

Theres also a case when the customers don't give a single fuck about spending games on its plataform.

 

[ReBurn]

I've seen some admit that they've stopped buying games since these services. It's disheartening tbh

Oh I see. Other people need to just buy games like they used to.

 

[Leyasu]

No, they just buy studios and can adjust budgets depending on subscription sales, downloads etc. This is how Spotify and Netflix works.

They have almost certainly lowered the budgets already. They are undoubtedly using that revenue now to help pay for the development of their games.

So yeah, I would agree. Just not seeing it in a negative way. Without gamepass and it's recurring revenue, I don't believe that Microsoft would have started buying devs/publishers.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Gamepass is nice for me. I have an Xbox but if a game isn't on gamepass, I just don't play it.

I'm sure it's not helpful for the industry when people like me make the move like that

Of course it's helpful, they are monetizing you. Why else would the service exist? I'm the same way with PSNow. I played Infamous SS, KZSF, Bloodborne, Spider-Man, God of War, Uncharted 4, Horizon Zero Dawn all without buying any software or hardware(aside from a 3rd-party DS4). Their profit is from the sub.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Of course it's helpful, they are monetizing you. Why else would the service exist? I'm the same way with PSNow. I played Infamous SS, KZSF, Bloodborne, Spider-Man, God of War, Uncharted 4, Horizon Zero Dawn all without buying any software or hardware(aside from a 3rd-party DS4). Their profit is from the sub.

I'm not sure they are making much and it's less than I paid for games before too.

It's much more limited in who gets the money as well

 

[Leyasu]

See my comment above. Even with this being the case the subscription model is worse for developers than actually selling the full game. The only exception to this would be low-budget/indie-type games that maybe wouldn't sell well on their own, but the developers can get traction via the subscription model. But for AAA games (for example, Final Fantasy XVI) the subscription model would be worse for them.

How is it? If going on gamepass nets then a nice guaranteed slice of development costs before the game goes on sale, then how is it a negative? The game is still for sale on Xbox/PlayStation/pc.

 

[Punished Miku]

I think that the budgets should be cut when people have senior horse nutsack renderer and horse poop physics qa testers. I think MS made the right call as we transition into a recession as well. $70 games are going to look ridiculous if people can't afford food and rent easily.

I can't wait for AA games to be more prominent.

 

[MikeM]

I'm not losing any sleep over it. The gaming business is doing a fine job all by themselves of making themselves unsustainable and prone to failure. When I started playing games, I had to put in quarters. Shit changes sometimes.

On one side you have subs trying to save you money. On the other side, every game is $70. Fuck that $70 shit. I'm so grateful there are options.

They don't stay $70 forever tho. Thats like the premium, day 1 cost (aka glorified beta).

 

[8BiTw0LF]

People liking what I don't think they should like is a huge concern.

This is not about liking stuff, but a change of culture that could ruin itself, for the sake of having cheap games day 1.

 

[DarkMage619]

So you have given your opinions as well. Also proven on this site, Xbox fans will always try to gatekeep, or play the victim card when it comes to MS criticism.

You can easily replace PlayStation and Sony in your statement. Doesn't change the fact Game pass has no impact on PlayStation customers or games. Again it is nice to show such 'concern' for Xbox gamers though. I'm sure it's appreciated.

I'm not saying it has happened, I'm saying we'll have to see if it affects game design

I've noticed lots of the complaints about Game pass appear to be more speculation than actual evidence of harm. Bad products tend to be dropped.

Nobody gives a shit about your or other gamepass subscribers' well-being. That's not what this is about. What's happening is a discussion about the service and it's (and other similar services) impact on the industry as a whole.

If you don't like the discussion that's taking place then you can leave the thread.

I am participating in the discussion just like you are friend. If you don't want to hear commentary from people who actually use the service you too are free to leave the thread. I would be interested to hear how Game pass has impacted you or your enjoyment of your preferred platform.

Gamepass is nice for me. I have an Xbox but if a game isn't on gamepass, I just don't play it.

I'm sure it's not helpful for the industry when people like me make the move like that

I'm positive games are not put on Game pass for free. We have not seen evidence that playing a game on Game pass does not benefit the industry especially if it's a game was wasn't going to be bought in the first place. As long as it remains an option and it's forced on any one I'm not seeing the issue.

 

[adamsapple]

This is not about liking stuff, but a change of culture that could ruin itself, for the sake of having cheap games day 1.

Considering all games available on game pass sell at retail as well, this is just an unfounded concern right now.

When we start getting a bunch of games that are only available on game pass, then we can raise an actual issue about it.

I've noticed lots of the complaints about Game pass appear to be more speculation than actual evidence of harm. Bad products tend to be dropped.

Yeah, it's strange. Most Game Pass threads devolve into the fear some have about what MAY happen. It's real bizarre that folks get so worked up about hypotheticals.

 

[fermcr]

He gives the example of Spotify... yet, musicians are making more money then ever with Spotify.

 

[Three]

If that were the case they would have released the games piece meal on Series S and X with the enhancements, but that was not the case.

We're just doing baseless speculation at this point.

MCC on xbox release date: 2014
Gamepass launch date: 2017
MCC on PC release date 2019 (piecemeal)

If anything the fact that the port and enhancements didn't require staggered development and active development blogs on xbox series s and x shows it can be done without it.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

He gives the example of Spotify... yet, musicians are making more money then ever with Spotify.

That's surely not because of the pay-out from Spotify - it's the exposure from Spotify that helps selling tickets to concerts, merchandise and so on.