Forza 5: Behind the scenes look (video) [Up: 1080p/60fps]

Another shill, but for Sony?

I'm confused :?

Yeah, compared to the trash that's floating around now, he's nothing. Shame, I'm sure he would've eased up prior to Monday :( Maybe it's only for a day or two.

I looked at his history and nothing stood out as bannable and compared to some of the posters in those other microsoft threads it really is surprising to me.

As for E3, I'm looking forward to it even though my hype for FM5 was completely obliterated by microsoft. I guess it's about time I took up iRacing or something.
 
I'm confused :?
Has a username similar to the ones that were recently banned (no spaces in username, blatant drive-by trolling) but most of the things that have come to light today have been MS shills, not anti-MS shills.

Edit: For the new page:
I just have to write this down, because everything is falling apart. And I am not happy because of it. And I think it is wrong. And it has been wrong for almost a decade.

What am I talking about?

When first Forza on Xbox was released in 2005 it was directly competing GT4 released in 2004. At that point of time, HID force feedback wheels were already a very serious market product that was present in homes of hundreds of thousands of players worldwide, mainly thanks to Logitech efforts and their production of Dual Force/Wingman and Driving Force family of wheels that practically changed the driving genre forever.

At the point of first Forza arrival, there were 3 extremely well-sold Logitech FFB/USB-HID wheels: second generation of USB/HID PC wheel Wingman Formula (270 degrees) that was perfectly working on PS2, three generations of Dual Force wheels USB/HID (270 degrees - models known as Dual Force, Driving Force and GT Force, also working on both PC/PS2 and also a legendary Logitech's Driving Force Pro model (USB-HID/900 degrees, PC/PS2), that will later become the best selling driving wheel of all time. I do not know the numbers for all those wheels, but I can presume that in 2005 there were hundreds of thousands them in the world.

But let's take a step back first.

What is ironic today - and not only today - is how actual HID technology and all foundations for USB force feedback wheels that 99% of the world is using today under Immersion Company's TouchSense technology license is actually made by - MICROSOFT. Yeah, you read it right. Microsoft.

Microsoft's own DirectInput technology - which Microsoft deliberately showed down the drain in favor of Xinput, which allows them monitoring and licensing of hardware - was the real pioneer of the full force feedback technology that we know today, used on legendary Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel back in 2000 (Immersion Corp. came out with their TouchSense technology a full year later, in 2001, and launched its first wheel full year after the Sidewinder).

And best part: DirectInput supported HID. Sidewinder is a full USB/HID wheel.

And now comes the juicy part. The Immersion Company that licenses its own proprietary force feedback technology almost to the whole world is the same Immersion Co. that Microsoft settled with about patents Immersion successfully claimed back in 2004, prior to Xbox360 release, regarding the usage of their patents in their Xbox controllers. Thanks to that settlement, X360 launched with rumble effects in their controllers day one.

In the same time, Sony - the company that is preparing the third consecutive console that will *probably* use the same USB-HID standard as whole world (except Microsoft) is using for the last 13 years, remained in dispute with Immersion without settlement, which finally ended with great damages Sony had to pay to Immersion regarding rumble patents, which was the main reason why PS3 console was launched without rumble effects in controllers and without FFB support in wheels for driving games. Why? Because the same line of patents covers both technologies, owned by Immersion. It was after very EU launch of PS3 that dispute was settled and damages payed and Sony agreed to pay Immersion fee for usage of their technologies. And it was the moment when Sixasis was finally replaced with Dual Shock 2 and when legendary update finally brought force feedback to F1 Championship Edition and very GT:HD (which was already released WITHOUT force feedback support) and USB-HID force feedback technology was again part of PlayStation console, this time PS3.

And that is the same licensing/patents we are talking about. One that Microsoft settled with Immersion 2 years before Sony. And they are still using it and they've been using it all along.

Now let us get back to history for a second.

If you remember, Gran Turismo 4 was released in 2004. It took 2 years to release GT:HD demo, and another year until release of GT5:Prologue. And then, another two years have passed until GT5 was released. In the meantime, Microsoft Games and Turn10 pumped out Forza 1 (2005), Forza 2 (2007) and Forza 3 (2009).

Now let us just imagine.

IF Microsoft allowed the usage of USB-HID protocols on their consoles and allowed all those hundreds of thousands of potential owners of FFB wheels to be able to actually use them on Xbox/Xbox360, the success of the Forza franchise would be immensely greater.

During the infamous 2007-2009 period (also known as Gran Depression™) Gran Turismo fans were going absolutely insane over the fact how their wheels can't be used on X360 while GT5 was facing one delay after another. Also, dozens of thousands of PC players were pretty uninterested in Forza just because their wheels can't work with it.

And what Microsoft do in the meantime? First, they "invent" their own version of Xinput that supports wheels and then they produce that toy called Microsoft Wireless Force Feedback wheel (I am talking about 2006 actual wheel, not that U-shaped thingie released in 2011) and they also license the same tech to Logiitech (that starts the production of Driving FX model, but they soon ditch it because they can't break even: licensing a X360 license and actual hardware parts that have to be bought from Microsoft and put inside the wheel so it can be recognized by console - infamous "Infineon Chip" - at the end cost too much to keep the wheel price popular, so they just bail out).

I had that MS wheel and played Forza 2, Project Gotham 2&3, Test Drive Unlimited and Race Pro with it. In the same time I had DFP which I used to play all PS2 driving games with. Guess what? MS wheel and MS Xinput FFB solution SUCKED BIG TIME compared to HID-USB wheels (including my DFP).

But they didn't stoop there, no.

In 2009 they've announced legendary deal with Fanatec, that will lead to Forza 3 being first X360 game that will actually support 900-degree (which we will later learn it is not actually simulated, but emulated: XID-driven force feedback essentially does not communicate with the game directly, but instead it creates FFB through pre-determined commands, practically emulating FFB effects and linarity from 270-degree commands that corresponds with degrees supported by controller. As a side-result, sensation of countersteer on FFB wheels in 900-mode is severely compromised because system can't cope with maintaining *tensioned* FFB (as you can experience on either PC/PS3 where you can *save* the grip when you loose it) because of the line of FFB "command" has already being issued to device). But then came the issues with linearity, buffers and all that jazz. Despite Fanatec managed to find some great wizardry to actually portray X360 FFB close to one at HID-mode, it was still a let-down.

But even then people were buying Fanatec PWTS and GT2 models, together with CSP pedals and continue to invest into Forza series. Even then some of the "hundreds thousands" HID-army decided to bite the bullet, they've sold their Logitechs and bought Fanatecs because they were working on all platforms and on top of that they bought X360 consoles, Forza games and probably Gold memberships.

During that same period, Logitech launches its legendary G25 model and later G27. They lauch new generation of 270-degree FFB wheel in budget range, also supported by both PC/PS3, Driving Force EX. It allso launches new generation of Force model, Driving Force GT, that will be remembered as last wheel manufactured by Logitech. All those wheels are bought by PS2/PS3 and PC players around the world - thanks to crazy Logitech's policy of worldwide distribution and merchandising that will ultimately lead to their fall and demise of their wheel program - on top of the existing older models. And among those players there were tens of thousands during the aforementioned Gran Depression™ that would jump on X360 wagon and Forza 2&3 games only if their wheel would be supported.

But no. Microsoft was smarter then anyone..

They continued their policy when Forza 4 was announced. The new, broader partnership with Fanatec was highlighted, resulting with 2 new FFB models, officially branded as Forza Motorsport wheels. CSR and CSR Elite. Thankfully for many of today's owners of CSR/CSRE, Fanatec manufactured few cheaper models of pedals then superior CSP, so some could buy their sets for more reasonable money (but it was still a hefty, few hundreds of moneys investment). Forza 4 was spectacularly demoed with CSRE wheel on E3 2011 and released in the same year, aggregating great scores of media and users and announcing big partnership with Pirelli for the tyre model. But again, released version of the game was plagued with broken linearity and buffers when using wheels. Turn10 was so arrogant that they accused Fanatec for the issue, although it was clearly their own physics/Xinput emulator modeling that was causing the issue. Yoritomo was one of the first who presented the evidence which was soon blacklisted on the official forums. But thank to all voices from wheel users, Turn10 finally released FM4 update (one and only) that provided us with Simulation physics and proper 900-degree linearity (still emulated, still plagued by connectivity issues, but it was working, thank God).

In the meantime, GT5 was released, with another great USB/HID wheel to support it, Thrustmaster T500RS. Needless to say, Fanatec was smart enough to never produce wheel that will only work with X360, so many CSR/CSRE owners also opted for those wheels because they were multiplatform - and were giving a better performance when in USB-HID mode, just to highlight that little fact.

And then came 2013 and recent news. And all I feel is complete disbelief.

Almost a full decade later I still can't fathom what is going on in heads at people at Microsoft. How can anyone with even grain of sanity in their head decide to create a simulation-driving game that will be first-party and funded with hundreds of million of dollars through its development - but in the same time decide it will not support a peripheral standard that is superior then Xinput while already embraced by hundreds of thousands (if not even millions) players of that same genre in the world?

They didn't opted to loose potential sales and buildup of userbase on only one platform (Xbox and Forza 1) or two platforms (Forza 2/3/4 and X360) - they now decided to do the same with the third consecutive platform and make angry all people who invested into extremely expensive peripherals to play their flagship racing franchise - and other driving games on their platform that were only supporting Xinput - through last 7 years. Why are they doing that? What is the math beyond such short-sighted and absolutely non-visionary decision?

I can only fathom the success Forza series would have if first game and first console were to support 270-FFB wheels of the time and if Forza 2 supported the same. I can only fathom what stellar numbers would they achieved if X360 and Forza 3 - released in the very time of Gran Depression™ - were to support USB-HID wheels. And what would it done to popularity of the franchise and platform itself. Also, success of Forza 4 would probably be much greater, same for Forza Horizon. And same for all other driving games - and as we all know X360 had a damn great number of them, from exclusive ones (PGR, TDU, RacePro) to multiplatform releases (when I am already writing this down, I have to congratulate Codemasters on their FFB engine used on X360, it was probably the best third-party FFB on X360, great job done there in all Codemasters games, especially F1 2011, Dirt 3 and GRID 2) - which would all be much more popular and played (and BOUGHT, together with damn XBOX LIVE GOLD sweet money needed to play online) if Microsoft only decided to support the standard and technology they invented and founded themselves in year 2000.

And for the final spectacle, they now have a Forza 5, on next-generation console, as first simulation game that will cherish the next-gen. And in that very moment they announce how none of the X360 peripheral will be supported and there is no evidence they will ditch Xinput in favor of DirectInput, as everybody with some sanity would do. And in the same time, their main contender is launching a game on the current-platfoorm, handing them AGAIN an empty space to grab from sea of those ready to jump in the early adoption madness. With their USB-HID and X360 wheels in the hands, awaiting to see have the white collars of Redmond finally came to their senses.

Unbelievable.

Damn, I was really inspired now when I look the wall of text. Sorry for that, Friday night. Off to play some GT5 online with my friends. Monday is only two nights away, I am really, honestly and wholeheartedly waiting for some good news about XboxOne. May support for USB-HID standard be that news.

Rant over.

BTW I should probably post this in the main Forza 5 thread too? Maybe later.

BTW2 Sorry to hear FordGT get banned. He was hilarious in his doings. He will be missed in Monday.
and my reply, which I edited in late:
PS. Holy fuck, that post is incredible, amar. I had no idea on the "emulated" 900, and never even considered that Forza didn't sell as well because of the lack of HID support/allowance... but it makes perfect sense. So much so, that I'd probably say there are tens of thousands of copies of Forza (and possibly even consoles) that weren't sold because of it.

applause.gif
 
Has a username similar to the ones that were recently banned (no spaces in username, blatant drive-by trolling) but most of the things that have come to light today have been MS shills, not anti-MS shills.

Oh, Gafs new buzzword?

I'm not going to read all that. Its just amar bitching about the wheel situation more right? :p

It does suck

It's a good read if you've got some spare time.
 
Great post amar.

I think it deserves its own thread, since it's a very good example of how bad Ms is managing xbox.
Its a pretty technical post, but the long and short of it is that there's no forwards compatibility with existing 360 wheels? And the reasoning is "because we can"?

Or am I misunderstanding?
 
I just have to write this down, because everything is falling apart. And I am not happy because of it. And I think it is wrong. And it has been wrong for almost a decade.

What am I talking about?

When first Forza on Xbox was released in 2005 it was directly competing GT4 released in 2004. At that point of time, HID force feedback wheels were already a very serious market product that was present in homes of hundreds of thousands of players worldwide, mainly thanks to Logitech efforts and their production of Dual Force/Wingman and Driving Force family of wheels that practically changed the driving genre forever.

At the point of first Forza arrival, there were 3 extremely well-sold Logitech FFB/USB-HID wheels: second generation of USB/HID PC wheel Wingman Formula (270 degrees) that was perfectly working on PS2, three generations of Dual Force wheels USB/HID (270 degrees - models known as Dual Force, Driving Force and GT Force, also working on both PC/PS2 and also a legendary Logitech's Driving Force Pro model (USB-HID/900 degrees, PC/PS2), that will later become the best selling driving wheel of all time. I do not know the numbers for all those wheels, but I can presume that in 2005 there were hundreds of thousands them in the world.

But let's take a step back first.

What is ironic today - and not only today - is how actual HID technology and all foundations for USB force feedback wheels that 99% of the world is using today under Immersion Company's TouchSense technology license is actually made by - MICROSOFT. Yeah, you read it right. Microsoft.

Microsoft's own DirectInput technology - which Microsoft deliberately showed down the drain in favor of Xinput, which allows them monitoring and licensing of hardware - was the real pioneer of the full force feedback technology that we know today, used on legendary Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel back in 2000 (Immersion Corp. came out with their TouchSense technology a full year later, in 2001, and launched its first wheel full year after the Sidewinder).

And best part: DirectInput supported HID. Sidewinder is a full USB/HID wheel.

And now comes the juicy part. The Immersion Company that licenses its own proprietary force feedback technology almost to the whole world is the same Immersion Co. that Microsoft settled with about patents Immersion successfully claimed back in 2004, prior to Xbox360 release, regarding the usage of their patents in their Xbox controllers. Thanks to that settlement, X360 launched with rumble effects in their controllers day one.

In the same time, Sony - the company that is preparing the third consecutive console that will *probably* use the same USB-HID standard as whole world (except Microsoft) is using for the last 13 years, remained in dispute with Immersion without settlement, which finally ended with great damages Sony had to pay to Immersion regarding rumble patents, which was the main reason why PS3 console was launched without rumble effects in controllers and without FFB support in wheels for driving games. Why? Because the same line of patents covers both technologies, owned by Immersion. It was after very EU launch of PS3 that dispute was settled and damages payed and Sony agreed to pay Immersion fee for usage of their technologies. And it was the moment when Sixasis was finally replaced with Dual Shock 2 and when legendary update finally brought force feedback to F1 Championship Edition and very GT:HD (which was already released WITHOUT force feedback support) and USB-HID force feedback technology was again part of PlayStation console, this time PS3.

And that is the same licensing/patents we are talking about. One that Microsoft settled with Immersion 2 years before Sony. And they are still using it and they've been using it all along.

Now let us get back to history for a second.

If you remember, Gran Turismo 4 was released in 2004. It took 2 years to release GT:HD demo, and another year until release of GT5:Prologue. And then, another two years have passed until GT5 was released. In the meantime, Microsoft Games and Turn10 pumped out Forza 1 (2005), Forza 2 (2007) and Forza 3 (2009).

Now let us just imagine.

IF Microsoft allowed the usage of USB-HID protocols on their consoles and allowed all those hundreds of thousands of potential owners of FFB wheels to be able to actually use them on Xbox/Xbox360, the success of the Forza franchise would be immensely greater.

During the infamous 2007-2009 period (also known as Gran Depression™) Gran Turismo fans were going absolutely insane over the fact how their wheels can't be used on X360 while GT5 was facing one delay after another. Also, dozens of thousands of PC players were pretty uninterested in Forza just because their wheels can't work with it.

And what Microsoft do in the meantime? First, they "invent" their own version of Xinput that supports wheels and then they produce that toy called Microsoft Wireless Force Feedback wheel (I am talking about 2006 actual wheel, not that U-shaped thingie released in 2011) and they also license the same tech to Logiitech (that starts the production of Driving FX model, but they soon ditch it because they can't break even: licensing a X360 license and actual hardware parts that have to be bought from Microsoft and put inside the wheel so it can be recognized by console - infamous "Infineon Chip" - at the end cost too much to keep the wheel price popular, so they just bail out).

I had that MS wheel and played Forza 2, Project Gotham 2&3, Test Drive Unlimited and Race Pro with it. In the same time I had DFP which I used to play all PS2 driving games with. Guess what? MS wheel and MS Xinput FFB solution SUCKED BIG TIME compared to HID-USB wheels (including my DFP).

But they didn't stoop there, no.

In 2009 they've announced legendary deal with Fanatec, that will lead to Forza 3 being first X360 game that will actually support 900-degree (which we will later learn it is not actually simulated, but emulated: XID-driven force feedback essentially does not communicate with the game directly, but instead it creates FFB through pre-determined commands, practically emulating FFB effects and linarity from 270-degree commands that corresponds with degrees supported by controller. As a side-result, sensation of countersteer on FFB wheels in 900-mode is severely compromised because system can't cope with maintaining *tensioned* FFB (as you can experience on either PC/PS3 where you can *save* the grip when you loose it) because of the line of FFB "command" has already being issued to device). But then came the issues with linearity, buffers and all that jazz. Despite Fanatec managed to find some great wizardry to actually portray X360 FFB close to one at HID-mode, it was still a let-down.

But even then people were buying Fanatec PWTS and GT2 models, together with CSP pedals and continue to invest into Forza series. Even then some of the "hundreds thousands" HID-army decided to bite the bullet, they've sold their Logitechs and bought Fanatecs because they were working on all platforms and on top of that they bought X360 consoles, Forza games and probably Gold memberships.

During that same period, Logitech launches its legendary G25 model and later G27. They lauch new generation of 270-degree FFB wheel in budget range, also supported by both PC/PS3, Driving Force EX. It allso launches new generation of Force model, Driving Force GT, that will be remembered as last wheel manufactured by Logitech. All those wheels are bought by PS2/PS3 and PC players around the world - thanks to crazy Logitech's policy of worldwide distribution and merchandising that will ultimately lead to their fall and demise of their wheel program - on top of the existing older models. And among those players there were tens of thousands during the aforementioned Gran Depression™ that would jump on X360 wagon and Forza 2&3 games only if their wheel would be supported.

But no. Microsoft was smarter then anyone..

They continued their policy when Forza 4 was announced. The new, broader partnership with Fanatec was highlighted, resulting with 2 new FFB models, officially branded as Forza Motorsport wheels. CSR and CSR Elite. Thankfully for many of today's owners of CSR/CSRE, Fanatec manufactured few cheaper models of pedals then superior CSP, so some could buy their sets for more reasonable money (but it was still a hefty, few hundreds of moneys investment). Forza 4 was spectacularly demoed with CSRE wheel on E3 2011 and released in the same year, aggregating great scores of media and users and announcing big partnership with Pirelli for the tyre model. But again, released version of the game was plagued with broken linearity and buffers when using wheels. Turn10 was so arrogant that they accused Fanatec for the issue, although it was clearly their own physics/Xinput emulator modeling that was causing the issue. Yoritomo was one of the first who presented the evidence which was soon blacklisted on the official forums. But thank to all voices from wheel users, Turn10 finally released FM4 update (one and only) that provided us with Simulation physics and proper 900-degree linearity (still emulated, still plagued by connectivity issues, but it was working, thank God).

In the meantime, GT5 was released, with another great USB/HID wheel to support it, Thrustmaster T500RS. Needless to say, Fanatec was smart enough to never produce wheel that will only work with X360, so many CSR/CSRE owners also opted for those wheels because they were multiplatform - and were giving a better performance when in USB-HID mode, just to highlight that little fact.

And then came 2013 and recent news. And all I feel is complete disbelief.

Almost a full decade later I still can't fathom what is going on in heads at people at Microsoft. How can anyone with even grain of sanity in their head decide to create a simulation-driving game that will be first-party and funded with hundreds of million of dollars through its development - but in the same time decide it will not support a peripheral standard that is superior then Xinput while already embraced by hundreds of thousands (if not even millions) players of that same genre in the world?

They didn't opted to loose potential sales and buildup of userbase on only one platform (Xbox and Forza 1) or two platforms (Forza 2/3/4 and X360) - they now decided to do the same with the third consecutive platform and make angry all people who invested into extremely expensive peripherals to play their flagship racing franchise - and other driving games on their platform that were only supporting Xinput - through last 7 years. Why are they doing that? What is the math beyond such short-sighted and absolutely non-visionary decision?

I can only fathom the success Forza series would have if first game and first console were to support 270-FFB wheels of the time and if Forza 2 supported the same. I can only fathom what stellar numbers would they achieved if X360 and Forza 3 - released in the very time of Gran Depression™ - were to support USB-HID wheels. And what would it done to popularity of the franchise and platform itself. Also, success of Forza 4 would probably be much greater, same for Forza Horizon. And same for all other driving games - and as we all know X360 had a damn great number of them, from exclusive ones (PGR, TDU, RacePro) to multiplatform releases (when I am already writing this down, I have to congratulate Codemasters on their FFB engine used on X360, it was probably the best third-party FFB on X360, great job done there in all Codemasters games, especially F1 2011, Dirt 3 and GRID 2) - which would all be much more popular and played (and BOUGHT, together with damn XBOX LIVE GOLD sweet money needed to play online) if Microsoft only decided to support the standard and technology they invented and founded themselves in year 2000.

And for the final spectacle, they now have a Forza 5, on next-generation console, as first simulation game that will cherish the next-gen. And in that very moment they announce how none of the X360 peripheral will be supported and there is no evidence they will ditch Xinput in favor of DirectInput, as everybody with some sanity would do. And in the same time, their main contender is launching a game on the current-platfoorm, handing them AGAIN an empty space to grab from sea of those ready to jump in the early adoption madness. With their USB-HID and X360 wheels in the hands, awaiting to see have the white collars of Redmond finally came to their senses.

Unbelievable.

Damn, I was really inspired now when I look the wall of text. Sorry for that, Friday night. Off to play some GT5 online with my friends. Monday is only two nights away, I am really, honestly and wholeheartedly waiting for some good news about XboxOne. May support for USB-HID standard be that news.

Rant over.

BTW I should probably post this in the main Forza 5 thread too? Maybe later.

BTW2 Sorry to hear FordGT get banned. He was hilarious in his doings. He will be missed in Monday.

This is one of my biggest problems with the Forza series. The wheel support is atrocious. They should be supporting the standard and at least support the 360 wheels since those were not standard either. The fact that GT5 supports the standard makes GT5 a better game. I do not have to find a wheel that supports both modes to play. On top of that, the proprietary mode wheels are always more expensive!
 
Its a pretty technical post, but the long and short of it is that there's no forwards compatibility with existing 360 wheels? And the reasoning is "because we can"?

Or am I misunderstanding?

You're misunderstanding.

It's a history lesson on Microsoft and Wheel controllers mostly with some predictions on what will happen in the future.

It ain't gonna look like the launch trailer if the rumor about apu downgrade is true.

Completely unsubstantiated rumor.

Yes, ESRAM yield issues are likely true as yields pretty much always start out poor but that has little to nothing to do with gpu clockspeeds.
 
major nelson already denied any yield problems.

but hes lying amirite
Maybe.

Doesn't mean that Forza 5 wont look as good as the trailer indicates, though. We have no idea how far the game is pushing the Xbox One and what sort of concessions an individual game will have to suffer for a small apu downgrade.
 
Maybe.

Doesn't mean that Forza 5 wont look as good as the trailer indicates, though. We have no idea how far the game is pushing the Xbox One and what sort of concessions an individual game will have to suffer for a small apu downgrade.

Regardless of supposed downgrades being such early footage we don't know if it was created on a devkit more, less or about as powerful as the final X1.
 
Thats a terribly shallow observation.

Yeah, I guess so. I think graphical changes are a huge part of why people who aren't die-hard racing fanatics (which is most of the userbase) buy new iterations of GT and Forza.

major nelson already denied any yield problems.

but hes lying amirite
Hmmm didn't see that. I guess we'll see. Do they usually announce details specs like clockspeed and what not at E3 reveals?

edit: BTW excellent post Amar212.
 
Yeah, I guess so. I think graphical changes are a huge part of why people who aren't die-hard racing fanatics (which is most of the userbase) buy new iterations of GT and Forza.
Us die-hard racing fanatics care plenty about graphics, too. We like to see our cars and racetracks in absolutely tip-top shape more than anyone, probably. PC sims have very big graphics-focused priorities as well.

Main point was that you just couldn't know how a minor apu downgrade would effect the graphics of what we saw. Maybe an experienced game developer would have an idea, but even then, it would probably be difficult without knowing exactly what Turn 10 had going on.
 
What does "yield issues" mean? Sorry for asking this here I guess, but does it mean some of the components can not hit the performance as expected?
 
What does "yield issues" mean? Sorry for asking this here I guess, but does it mean some of the components can not hit the performance as expected?

Not every chip is identical. Some might be excellent, some may not work at all and many fall in between where they work, but not as well as the best chips. If MS wants a GPU that can run at 800Mhz without overheating they may have to throw away too many and instead reduce the target clockspeed so that they can put worse chips into their machine.
Edit: When overclocking CPUs higher clockspeed it faster, but more unstable while voltage makes it more stable, but much hotter. Good CPUs can run really fast while bad ones need a lot of cooling if they even manage to be stable. Same thing with GPUs and even flash memory where the good stuff goes into SSDs and the bad stuff into memory cards.

Another problem is that the chip (die) is big because of the EDRAM. They are made from a huge disc of very pure silicon where they print the chips onto the disc and cut out the dies. The bigger the die the fewer chips you get, the easier it is for those chips to be damaged and as a result it get's more expensive.

Yields is a funny thing because in many cases AMD, Nvidia and Intel all sell the same product for different prices like run a 3.4Ghz CPU at 3Ghz, disable some pieces on a GPU or disable CPU cores. It's of course a bad thing to sell i7s for the price of a Pentium, but there have been some CPUs and GPUs where you could literally dowload extra performance or an extra core and overclocking is a way of getting some of the performance taken from you.

Red spots are defects. Squares are the dies made from the silicon wafers (disc).
Wafer_die's_yield_model_(10-20-40mm)_-_Version_2_-_EN.png
 
Oh, Gafs new buzzword?
Only because of the time of year, and because several users have been banned because the email address they registered with was associated with a marketing company.
We note.

We notice.

Hey, would anybody be interested in a thread where I detail some of the social agency email addresses that have come up during my offsite research into some of our more recently vocal members?

It's fascinating.
But that's all I'll mention of it here. Plenty of other threads where it's been thrashed out.
 
Interesting. But I gave up on wheels early because I don't have a decent rig to attach them to. I tried using a wooden chair, and that kind of worked, but it felt stupid and cumbersome overall. Now I just stick with controllers...
 
Oh I understand, thanks! That would really suck if true and its also out of their hands.

Think it's even out of AMD's hands as GlobalFoundries make CPU/GPU/APUs for them.

Edit: Still not totally out of their hands as they could have designed a cheaper chip. Really wonder why EDRAM is so important over faster or split memory, but I am no software designer :P
 
HISTORY OF RACING GAMES, CHAPTER 11

I always gave Microsoft a semi-pass on USB/HID because I felt it was understandable that they wouldn't have understood the market for wheels at the time they conceived and delivered their first two consoles. The DFP was the yardstick, and they felt they could replicate the wheel and ffb while treating it like controller-class peripheral (read expendable). They never saw the G25 coming. They never saw the middle market for wheels exploding. These are high end items for high performance, and are clearly not priced for single generation use.

The Xbox One is the first console where they could truly see the importance and investment players made to driving game equipment. They should have acknowledged that, and embraced it. Unfortunately it seems they've slammed the door in our faces instead.

I love racing games. I've loved Forza since the Xbox mag demo (hacked for more laps, thank you very much). I love people who also love racing games. Not including support for existing wheels takes a huge piss on the racing community. I'm just not down with that one bit.

I feel badly for T10 and other race devs on the XO. It's certainly not their fault. They're just trying to make good racing games, and I'm sure they will. I'm not getting pissed on though.
 
Us die-hard racing fanatics care plenty about graphics, too. We like to see our cars and racetracks in absolutely tip-top shape more than anyone, probably. PC sims have very big graphics-focused priorities as well.

Main point was that you just couldn't know how a minor apu downgrade would effect the graphics of what we saw. Maybe an experienced game developer would have an idea, but even then, it would probably be difficult without knowing exactly what Turn 10 had going on.

I won't disagree with you. We don't really know. My thinking was that it's an already probably overly ambitious game for being a launch game, and if they have to add an extra optimization schedule to meet milestones, it might not be feasible. But really, who knows if the rumor is even true, or if they can still push out a game that looks that good in time even with lower specs.
 
Not every chip is identical. Some might be excellent, some may not work at all and many fall in between where they work, but not as well as the best chips. If MS wants a GPU that can run at 800Mhz without overheating they may have to throw away too many and instead reduce the target clockspeed so that they can put worse chips into their machine.
Edit: When overclocking CPUs higher clockspeed it faster, but more unstable while voltage makes it more stable, but much hotter. Good CPUs can run really fast while bad ones need a lot of cooling if they even manage to be stable. Same thing with GPUs and even flash memory where the good stuff goes into SSDs and the bad stuff into memory cards.

Another problem is that the chip (die) is big because of the EDRAM. They are made from a huge disc of very pure silicon where they print the chips onto the disc and cut out the dies. The bigger the die the fewer chips you get, the easier it is for those chips to be damaged and as a result it get's more expensive.

Yields is a funny thing because in many cases AMD, Nvidia and Intel all sell the same product for different prices like run a 3.4Ghz CPU at 3Ghz, disable some pieces on a GPU or disable CPU cores. It's of course a bad thing to sell i7s for the price of a Pentium, but there have been some CPUs and GPUs where you could literally dowload extra performance or an extra core and overclocking is a way of getting some of the performance taken from you.

Red spots are defects. Squares are the dies made from the silicon wafers (disc).

The yield issues are due to the ESRAM and not the clock speeds of the GPU...

Only because of the time of year, and because several users have been banned because the email address they registered with was associated with a marketing company.


But that's all I'll mention of it here. Plenty of other threads where it's been thrashed out.

lol!

Amazing!

Us die-hard racing fanatics care plenty about graphics, too. We like to see our cars and racetracks in absolutely tip-top shape more than anyone, probably. PC sims have very big graphics-focused priorities as well.

Main point was that you just couldn't know how a minor apu downgrade would effect the graphics of what we saw. Maybe an experienced game developer would have an idea, but even then, it would probably be difficult without knowing exactly what Turn 10 had going on.

Graphics are important. That's why PCARS has been getting so much attention.
 
I just have to write this down, because everything is falling apart. And I am not happy because of it. And I think it is wrong. And it has been wrong for almost a decade.

What am I talking about?

*snip*

Rant over.

Brilliant post, Amar. Don't do yourself a disservice by calling it a rant. It's a considered, eloquent, factual, unbiased and informative critique of anti-consumer corporate strategy. Yes, this absolutely deserves its own thread. Bravo.

We don't know yet (and we probably still won't know for a while) whether our Fanatec racing hardware will work with the Xbone, but considering the recent partnership announcements with Mad Catz and Thrustmaster, and MS's own statements about 360 hardware being incompatible... well, I'd be totally amazed if Fanatec support was sanctioned.

Microsoft at no point stated that Fanatec hardware for Xbox 360 would work with their next-gen console, but by entering into an official partnership and branding the wheels with the Forza logo (not the Forza 4 logo, but the Forza brand logo) there was certainly, for me, an implied assurance that support would continue for future versions of the game.

You know what? Even ignoring the Fanatec issue for a second I think there are too many things about the Xbone I'm unhappy about. The hardware, the policies behind it and Xbox division's whole attitude and focus just don't sit comfortably with me. Even if Fanatec support is confirmed I think Microsoft might already have lost me as a customer. They've certainly got a lot of work to do to to win me round.
 
Great post Amar!


People underestimate the role that wheels played in the popularity, at least where sales is concerned, of the Forza franchise. I've seen SO MANY people who wanted to 'jump in', (hardcore GT fans included) but couldn't/wouldn't because of the whole input issue.

I swear, the Forza franchise deserves much more credit and sales than it already gets. It's a great series that has drawn in so many people of varying backgrounds. Painters, tuners, racers, car lovers. It caters to all..... that is, if you have a dedicated MS endorsed peripheral.

MS need to realize that this whole problem can be turned around for the better if they would only climb off their high horses and give the series what it truly deserves. A chance for ALL racing fans to be able to enjoy Forza without any limitations..
 
Only because of the time of year, and because several users have been banned because the email address they registered with was associated with a marketing company.


But that's all I'll mention of it here. Plenty of other threads where it's been thrashed out.

I was shaking my head reading this thread though. I guess the 'you must be a shill' thing for juniors is only for those who are avidly pro-Xbox right now lol

OTT - I hope they are smarter about peripheral support next gen. Wheels are vital for racing games, even if I don't use one 90% of the time personally.
 
Okay, let's get some variety up in this bitch then!
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I like how you never have to look for a specific model's parts because they're all the same shape. Very convenient.
 
Oh I understand, thanks! That would really suck if true and its also out of their hands.

great outline by ty4on up there but regarding yield/downclock
Yeah, but it seems like the result (for whatever reason) is reducing GPU clockspeed..


the yield issues could very well be true as the chip is huge...BUT

IF EVEN TRUE.... there are two options for MS

1) reduce the clock speed slightly to allow the lower parts to run ok at lower voltage

2) discard the poor yield chips and keep the spec which leads to being able to make fewer machines for a while and spending more money on bad chips

there is no indication of any kind of down clock from the specs as we know them... MS implied they were running 1.2 (original speed) at the architect round table at the reveal when the Lead Engineer said 768ops/s (which would be 1.2 tf)
 
I was shaking my head reading this thread though. I guess the 'you must be a shill' thing for juniors is only for those who are avidly pro-Xbox right now lol

OTT - I hope they are smarter about peripheral support next gen. Wheels are vital for racing games, even if I don't use one 90% of the time personally.

I haven't wanted to mention Forza or X1 outside of Forza threads because I can't be bothered with the negative attitude and bitching, the whole fucking forum has gone mental.

Still hoping for some Fanatec news good or bad at E3, good? Great I'll buy another Forzabox, bad? Shame on MS they lost a customer.
 
I always gave Microsoft a semi-pass on USB/HID because I felt it was understandable that they wouldn't have understood the market for wheels at the time they conceived and delivered their first two consoles. The DFP was the yardstick, and they felt they could replicate the wheel and ffb while treating it like controller-class peripheral (read expendable). They never saw the G25 coming.


They seem to be suffering from a chronic learning disability and awareness disorder.

HID support for either my G25 or PWTS could win me back.
 
I just have to write this down, because everything is falling apart. And I am not happy because of it. And I think it is wrong. And it has been wrong for almost a decade.

What am I talking about?

When first Forza on Xbox was released in 2005 it was directly competing GT4 released in 2004. At that point of time, HID force feedback wheels were already a very serious market product that was present in homes of hundreds of thousands of players worldwide, mainly thanks to Logitech efforts and their production of Dual Force/Wingman and Driving Force family of wheels that practically changed the driving genre forever.

At the point of first Forza arrival, there were 3 extremely well-sold Logitech FFB/USB-HID wheels: second generation of USB/HID PC wheel Wingman Formula (270 degrees) that was perfectly working on PS2, three generations of Dual Force wheels USB/HID (270 degrees - models known as Dual Force, Driving Force and GT Force, also working on both PC/PS2 and also a legendary Logitech's Driving Force Pro model (USB-HID/900 degrees, PC/PS2), that will later become the best selling driving wheel of all time. I do not know the numbers for all those wheels, but I can presume that in 2005 there were hundreds of thousands them in the world.

But let's take a step back first.

What is ironic today - and not only today - is how actual HID technology and all foundations for USB force feedback wheels that 99% of the world is using today under Immersion Company's TouchSense technology license is actually made by - MICROSOFT. Yeah, you read it right. Microsoft.

Microsoft's own DirectInput technology - which Microsoft deliberately showed down the drain in favor of Xinput, which allows them monitoring and licensing of hardware - was the real pioneer of the full force feedback technology that we know today, used on legendary Microsoft Sidewinder FFB wheel back in 2000 (Immersion Corp. came out with their TouchSense technology a full year later, in 2001, and launched its first wheel full year after the Sidewinder).

And best part: DirectInput supported HID. Sidewinder is a full USB/HID wheel.

And now comes the juicy part. The Immersion Company that licenses its own proprietary force feedback technology almost to the whole world is the same Immersion Co. that Microsoft settled with about patents Immersion successfully claimed back in 2004, prior to Xbox360 release, regarding the usage of their patents in their Xbox controllers. Thanks to that settlement, X360 launched with rumble effects in their controllers day one.

In the same time, Sony - the company that is preparing the third consecutive console that will *probably* use the same USB-HID standard as whole world (except Microsoft) is using for the last 13 years, remained in dispute with Immersion without settlement, which finally ended with great damages Sony had to pay to Immersion regarding rumble patents, which was the main reason why PS3 console was launched without rumble effects in controllers and without FFB support in wheels for driving games. Why? Because the same line of patents covers both technologies, owned by Immersion. It was after very EU launch of PS3 that dispute was settled and damages payed and Sony agreed to pay Immersion fee for usage of their technologies. And it was the moment when Sixasis was finally replaced with Dual Shock 2 and when legendary update finally brought force feedback to F1 Championship Edition and very GT:HD (which was already released WITHOUT force feedback support) and USB-HID force feedback technology was again part of PlayStation console, this time PS3.

And that is the same licensing/patents we are talking about. One that Microsoft settled with Immersion 2 years before Sony. And they are still using it and they've been using it all along.

Now let us get back to history for a second.

If you remember, Gran Turismo 4 was released in 2004. It took 2 years to release GT:HD demo, and another year until release of GT5:Prologue. And then, another two years have passed until GT5 was released. In the meantime, Microsoft Games and Turn10 pumped out Forza 1 (2005), Forza 2 (2007) and Forza 3 (2009).

Now let us just imagine.

IF Microsoft allowed the usage of USB-HID protocols on their consoles and allowed all those hundreds of thousands of potential owners of FFB wheels to be able to actually use them on Xbox/Xbox360, the success of the Forza franchise would be immensely greater.

During the infamous 2007-2009 period (also known as Gran Depression™) Gran Turismo fans were going absolutely insane over the fact how their wheels can't be used on X360 while GT5 was facing one delay after another. Also, dozens of thousands of PC players were pretty uninterested in Forza just because their wheels can't work with it.

And what Microsoft do in the meantime? First, they "invent" their own version of Xinput that supports wheels and then they produce that toy called Microsoft Wireless Force Feedback wheel (I am talking about 2006 actual wheel, not that U-shaped thingie released in 2011) and they also license the same tech to Logiitech (that starts the production of Driving FX model, but they soon ditch it because they can't break even: licensing a X360 license and actual hardware parts that have to be bought from Microsoft and put inside the wheel so it can be recognized by console - infamous "Infineon Chip" - at the end cost too much to keep the wheel price popular, so they just bail out).

I had that MS wheel and played Forza 2, Project Gotham 2&3, Test Drive Unlimited and Race Pro with it. In the same time I had DFP which I used to play all PS2 driving games with. Guess what? MS wheel and MS Xinput FFB solution SUCKED BIG TIME compared to HID-USB wheels (including my DFP).

But they didn't stoop there, no.

In 2009 they've announced legendary deal with Fanatec, that will lead to Forza 3 being first X360 game that will actually support 900-degree (which we will later learn it is not actually simulated, but emulated: XID-driven force feedback essentially does not communicate with the game directly, but instead it creates FFB through pre-determined commands, practically emulating FFB effects and linarity from 270-degree commands that corresponds with degrees supported by controller. As a side-result, sensation of countersteer on FFB wheels in 900-mode is severely compromised because system can't cope with maintaining *tensioned* FFB (as you can experience on either PC/PS3 where you can *save* the grip when you loose it) because of the line of FFB "command" has already being issued to device). But then came the issues with linearity, buffers and all that jazz. Despite Fanatec managed to find some great wizardry to actually portray X360 FFB close to one at HID-mode, it was still a let-down.

But even then people were buying Fanatec PWTS and GT2 models, together with CSP pedals and continue to invest into Forza series. Even then some of the "hundreds thousands" HID-army decided to bite the bullet, they've sold their Logitechs and bought Fanatecs because they were working on all platforms and on top of that they bought X360 consoles, Forza games and probably Gold memberships.

During that same period, Logitech launches its legendary G25 model and later G27. They lauch new generation of 270-degree FFB wheel in budget range, also supported by both PC/PS3, Driving Force EX. It allso launches new generation of Force model, Driving Force GT, that will be remembered as last wheel manufactured by Logitech. All those wheels are bought by PS2/PS3 and PC players around the world - thanks to crazy Logitech's policy of worldwide distribution and merchandising that will ultimately lead to their fall and demise of their wheel program - on top of the existing older models. And among those players there were tens of thousands during the aforementioned Gran Depression™ that would jump on X360 wagon and Forza 2&3 games only if their wheel would be supported.

But no. Microsoft was smarter then anyone..

They continued their policy when Forza 4 was announced. The new, broader partnership with Fanatec was highlighted, resulting with 2 new FFB models, officially branded as Forza Motorsport wheels. CSR and CSR Elite. Thankfully for many of today's owners of CSR/CSRE, Fanatec manufactured few cheaper models of pedals then superior CSP, so some could buy their sets for more reasonable money (but it was still a hefty, few hundreds of moneys investment). Forza 4 was spectacularly demoed with CSRE wheel on E3 2011 and released in the same year, aggregating great scores of media and users and announcing big partnership with Pirelli for the tyre model. But again, released version of the game was plagued with broken linearity and buffers when using wheels. Turn10 was so arrogant that they accused Fanatec for the issue, although it was clearly their own physics/Xinput emulator modeling that was causing the issue. Yoritomo was one of the first who presented the evidence which was soon blacklisted on the official forums. But thank to all voices from wheel users, Turn10 finally released FM4 update (one and only) that provided us with Simulation physics and proper 900-degree linearity (still emulated, still plagued by connectivity issues, but it was working, thank God).

In the meantime, GT5 was released, with another great USB/HID wheel to support it, Thrustmaster T500RS. Needless to say, Fanatec was smart enough to never produce wheel that will only work with X360, so many CSR/CSRE owners also opted for those wheels because they were multiplatform - and were giving a better performance when in USB-HID mode, just to highlight that little fact.

And then came 2013 and recent news. And all I feel is complete disbelief.

Almost a full decade later I still can't fathom what is going on in heads at people at Microsoft. How can anyone with even grain of sanity in their head decide to create a simulation-driving game that will be first-party and funded with hundreds of million of dollars through its development - but in the same time decide it will not support a peripheral standard that is superior then Xinput while already embraced by hundreds of thousands (if not even millions) players of that same genre in the world?

They didn't opted to loose potential sales and buildup of userbase on only one platform (Xbox and Forza 1) or two platforms (Forza 2/3/4 and X360) - they now decided to do the same with the third consecutive platform and make angry all people who invested into extremely expensive peripherals to play their flagship racing franchise - and other driving games on their platform that were only supporting Xinput - through last 7 years. Why are they doing that? What is the math beyond such short-sighted and absolutely non-visionary decision?

I can only fathom the success Forza series would have if first game and first console were to support 270-FFB wheels of the time and if Forza 2 supported the same. I can only fathom what stellar numbers would they achieved if X360 and Forza 3 - released in the very time of Gran Depression™ - were to support USB-HID wheels. And what would it done to popularity of the franchise and platform itself. Also, success of Forza 4 would probably be much greater, same for Forza Horizon. And same for all other driving games - and as we all know X360 had a damn great number of them, from exclusive ones (PGR, TDU, RacePro) to multiplatform releases (when I am already writing this down, I have to congratulate Codemasters on their FFB engine used on X360, it was probably the best third-party FFB on X360, great job done there in all Codemasters games, especially F1 2011, Dirt 3 and GRID 2) - which would all be much more popular and played (and BOUGHT, together with damn XBOX LIVE GOLD sweet money needed to play online) if Microsoft only decided to support the standard and technology they invented and founded themselves in year 2000.

And for the final spectacle, they now have a Forza 5, on next-generation console, as first simulation game that will cherish the next-gen. And in that very moment they announce how none of the X360 peripheral will be supported and there is no evidence they will ditch Xinput in favor of DirectInput, as everybody with some sanity would do. And in the same time, their main contender is launching a game on the current-platfoorm, handing them AGAIN an empty space to grab from sea of those ready to jump in the early adoption madness. With their USB-HID and X360 wheels in the hands, awaiting to see have the white collars of Redmond finally came to their senses.

Unbelievable.

Damn, I was really inspired now when I look the wall of text. Sorry for that, Friday night. Off to play some GT5 online with my friends. Monday is only two nights away, I am really, honestly and wholeheartedly waiting for some good news about XboxOne. May support for USB-HID standard be that news.

Rant over.

BTW I should probably post this in the main Forza 5 thread too? Maybe later.

BTW2 Sorry to hear FordGT get banned. He was hilarious in his doings. He will be missed in Monday.

You've always gotten my respect...Always. I, as a wheel user, knight this post.
 
They seem to be suffering from a chronic learning disability and awareness disorder.

HID support for either my G25 or PWTS could win me back.

Right? I mean it seems obvious that those are the people you need championing your game. If last gen was a tough ask to get established race/sim fans to buy new equipment to play Forza with, this gen will be impossible. They'll be starting from scratch with new fans that don't already have wheels.

The door is still open a crack for HID, but I see Thrustmaster jumping onboard as a nail in coffin for that hope.
 
You know, it's just sad that we have to be talking about wheels and such. We should be discussing the FM5 showing at E3 with absolute hype. Speculating on what might or might not be shown. Getting excited...etc

Oh MS, what have you done....
 
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