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Forza 5 Showroom | New cars and details for Forza 5, ongoing reveals

saladine1

Junior Member
Am I understanding this correctly?

He mentions that the wheel will be upgradeable. Does that mean we can add H Shifter and clutch?
Does that go for both wheels?

That's what you get for poking fun at MUSTANGS. -__-

ssqWgAY.jpg
 

p3tran

Banned
Is that an imposter Major Nelson? He doesn't look like Nelson.

actually, both people on that video are imposters and are lying to our face.
especially the bald one, saying "THE LEVEL OF INNOVATION IS THE REASON THAT 360 WHEELS CANNOT WORK WITH XBONE",
wow, that must be the POOREST excuse for corporate greed I've seen the latest years....
 

amar212

Member
actually, both people on that video are imposters and are lying to our face.
especially the bald one, saying "THE LEVEL OF INNOVATION IS THE REASON THAT 360 WHEELS CANNOT WORK WITH XBONE",
wow, that must be the POOREST excuse for corporate greed I've seen the latest years....

I agree and I will meet all that, point by point and with historical overview in the article and new thread I am preparing, I hope later tonight.

It was a decade of arrogance, lies, hypocrisy and utmost greed and this has just reached a new level.

This is the final nail in the coffin for all true racers who invested serious money in their accessories through last decade and especially during X360 times.
 

Xanadu

Banned
I agree and I will meet all that, point by point and with historical overview in the article and new thread I am preparing, I hope later tonight.

It was a decade of arrogance, lies, hypocrisy and utmost greed and this has just reached a new level.

This is the final nail in the coffin for all true racers who invested serious money in their accessories through last decade and especially during X360 times.

i look forward to reading it
 
Its bull shit that they didn't say this months ago. You would think you would want to let potential customers know they should save up, not everyone is in a position to drop $400+ at a moments whim.

And even though it looks like the thrustmaster might offer the ability to buy clutch pedals/ h-gate shifter down the line, how much and when?

Real bad job of informing potential customers.

And if Sony comes out of left field with a statement of all wheels working......just fucking LOL
 

CrunchinJelly

formerly cjelly
Its bull shit that they didn't say this months ago. You would think you would want to let potential customers know they should save up, not everyone is in a position to drop $400+ at a moments whim.

And even though it looks like the thrustmaster might offer the ability to buy clutch pedals/ h-gate shifter down the line, how much and when?

Real bad job of informing potential customers.

And if Sony comes out of left field with a statement of all wheels working......just fucking LOL

they pretty much did say this months ago, though.
 
they pretty much did say this months ago, though.

They did not.

Fanatec wheels are NOT 360 wheels. They have a USB cord and worked on all 3 platforms. The MS wireless wheel was obvious since there is a new wireless standard. But there is no reason they couldn't allow you to use the Fanatec wheels through a USB connection.
 

Revson

Member
16 cars on track is now OK, is it?

My my, how our expectations continue to drop...

Honestly, I really don't want more than 16 cars on track until they make serious changes to the online to improve the standard of racing.

The most disappointing thing to me in that lobby screenshot is that public hopper races are still ridiculously short. 3 laps on Laguna Seca? That's about 4 minutes of bumper cars.
 

shinnn

Member
They did not.

Fanatec wheels are NOT 360 wheels. They have a USB cord and worked on all 3 platforms. The MS wireless wheel was obvious since there is a new wireless standard. But there is no reason they couldn't allow you to use the Fanatec wheels through a USB connection.
The fanatecs wheels work though wireless on the X360.
 
The fanatecs wheels work though wireless on the X360.

It wouldn't take a feat of magic to get them to work over USB for xbox one. And the fact that they were asked by multiple people at E3 about Fanatecs and they just passed the buck is so fucking pathetic.
 
That's why FM is a controller only racer for me. In FM3 support was pretty weak, it didn't justified paying premium for a Turbo S. I sold it a few months later. I'm still waiting to see if the ClubSport Wheel is really the way to go before buying one.
 

shinnn

Member
It wouldn't take a feat of magic to get them to work over USB for xbox one. And the fact that they were asked by multiple people at E3 about Fanatecs and they just passed the buck is so fucking pathetic.
If so Fanatec should have updated the firmware in their previous wheels, instead of making a new one just to be compatible with the X360.

That wasn't his point though. Fanatec could update the firmware to be comparable with the xbox one, but would most likely only be able to use it with a USB since the wireless standards have changed.
Same.

But they also have a usb option
USB option don't work on the X360. But work on the PS3. Are you seeing the pattern?

Logitech dropped their USB wheel. Madcatz newest wheel for the X360 uses wireless (they could make it USB to lower the price, but they didnt).

Maybe the force feedback commands are only transmitted over wireless?
 

LeBoef

Member
What the guy was explaining is exactly the same way current XID works.

Why are they are mentioning Kinect though, is it going to be mandatory with wheels?

Come on, seriously?


Never expected 360 wheels to work. Just waiting for a fanatec announcement. Want that csr wheel xbox one compatible to be announced.

Edit
Am I understanding this correctly?

He mentions that the wheel will be upgradeable. Does that mean we can add H Shifter and clutch?
Does that go for both wheels?




I'd say its up to the wheel manufacturer

Edit2
Amar raging on 911wheel blog. Dunno mate, all you do is stress out fanatec folks with such things.
No offense, just my 50 cent
Sorry for going OT
 

amar212

Member
That wasn't his point though. Fanatec could update the firmware to be comparable with the xbox one, but would most likely only be able to use it with a USB since the wireless standards have changed.

No.

"Firmware" that allows any peripheral to be compatible with Xbox360 - and most probably with XboxOne - is Microsoft's firmware/SDK/API called "Xinput" (XID). Fanatec can only do modifications to its own firmware if allowed by Microsoft.

In order to have some device being recognized and compatible with Xbox360 console, you have to have Microsoft license and you have to actually buy and implement special wireless-chipset from Microsoft (manufactured and sealed by Infineon Corp.) that authenticates your hardware and make it Xbox-compatible.

Fanatec - or any other - manufacturer can't do anything unless Microsoft allows them to do so. In theory, in order to have Fanatec wheels compatible with XboxOne, Microsoft should allow Fanatec to become their own partner again, supply them with new Infineon authenticators together with the new XboxOne Xinput modules that are Wi-Fi-based (X360 version of chipset uses radio-RFsignal) and to have all owners being able to exchange the complete chipsets and motherboards themselves.

So, no. This was 100% deliberate decision in order to build firewall against new platform and start new cycle of supply/demand by making previous hardware generation incompatible. Of course, they could always allow for a simple HID-based FFB that whole world is using, but then they would lose all that sweet licensing money.

Travesty.

If so Fanatec should have updated the firmware in their previous wheels, instead of making a new one just to be compatible with the X360.

No Shinn, all Fanatec wheels work flawlessly through USB under normal standardized HID "TouchSense" FFB. It does not even ask for a classical firmware in the usual PC-mode, it is simple plug-and-play.

Maybe the force feedback commands are only transmitted over wireless?

For Xbox platforms, yes. It is Xinput (XID) standard and it emulates both FFB and steering saturation from usual controller inputs (thus inferior to proper HID USB FFB standard - but unlike HID, XID (Xinput) is prone to licensing and can be controlled through Microsoft own firmwares).
 
If so Fanatec should have updated the firmware in their previous wheels, instead of making a new one just to be compatible with the X360.


Same.


USB option don't work on the X360. But work on the PS3. Are you seeing the pattern?

Logitech dropped their USB wheel. Madcatz newest wheel for the X360 uses wireless (they could make it USB to lower the price, but they didnt).

Maybe the force feedback commands are only transmitted over wireless?

56_1-500x500.jpg


This allowed you to play wireless on PS3, the only reason why they are not going to do the same for XB1 is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
Whole Lotta folks in here seem to be experts in XID, Wifi direct protocols, and MS accessories license policy.

New hardware. New accessories designed to work with it. Old toys go in the box in the closet. With this board so seemingly obsessed with keeping gaming "like it has always been" I don't see how this situation is any different.

No tears, guys. You knew that with the box using an entirely new communication system that making old stuff work would be way more work than designing new.
 

Dural

Member
Well that does it, not getting at launch now. I have a huge backlog anyway, gonna wait a little while and see where both consoles are. I wouldnt have considered a PS4 A year ago, my how things have changed. You'd think the company that built themselves on backwards compatibility in the pc world would be more open in the console world.
 
Well that does it, not getting at launch now. I have a huge backlog anyway, gonna wait a little while and see where both consoles are. I wouldnt have considered a PS4 A year ago, my how things have changed. You'd think the company that built themselves on backwards compatibility in the pc world would be more open in the console world.

Right now the Fanatec situation on PlayStation is no better although there's still a chance something may happen.
 

p3tran

Banned
You'd think the company that built themselves on backwards compatibility in the pc world would be more open in the console world.
"more open"? where you on a different planet earlier this year when they announced their original plans and vision? :D
 

amar212

Member
Okay, I made myself a nice cup of coffee and postponed an intention to make a new big article for some time because I was getting lost in trying to make a comprehensive overview of this madness that lasts for more then a decade now.

I will do it soon.

Until then, here is few tidbits I managed to highlight from the video, just to make some comments about nonsense and utter misinformation displayed today in that short few minutes. All quotes are from poor Branden Powell, Director of Strategic alliances on the Xbox One partner development team while Larry Herb ask the questions he mostly have no idea about (sorry Larry, but that is like that, no hard feelings I hope).

So, one by one (pun intended):

about "new" Force Feedback "Equational" effects

FFB has been done in pretty much same way for the 15 years in across the industry.. previously you had some "canned" forces that developers could push through device to try to simulate the feeling they wanted.. what we done is developing a new way of doing that using an "equation language"... what that means is developer can "push down" some things using RPM or ABS and "equation language" will do the thing and create those forces for them.. it also give them "new blocks" they can develop...

I don't even know where to start without going all technical again and again. What he described is basically the SAME XINPUT LOGIC that MS has been using on Xbox platform since X360 and introduction of Xinput XID API. XID was never in direct communication with the motherboard, it was always an "equation language", as described by Logitech engineers who were working on the Logitech X360 wheels back in 2007:

MS is using a special USB and input protocol (XID) but more important they decided to use a completely different method of generating FF effects. On the PC or PS3 FF effects are created in the console and the console only sends out Force commands to the motor (left, right and how strong). This consumes some CPU power. Therefore MS decided to put a lot of pre-defined FF commands into the IC of the wheel and the console sends something like ("play FF effect #24" = "shaking while driving over rough surface"). This allows the game developer to use more CPU power for graphics and other stuff. And actually the very first FF controllers on PC were using this method as well. So far the the theory. As programming such commands is difficult for the game developers there is a tendency that many game developers go back using the same force effects as on the PC as a simple Force effect is also just a command (e.g. "play FF effect #1" = "move wheel to left").

What I presume is how XboxOne is using the new generation of Xinput, but it is the same Xinput as before, only the 1.4 version (as a latest version). From what he described, new "equational effects" are nothing but the good-old XID, used again as the barrier to prevent usage of HID USB devices and forced together with the new Wi-Fi authenticator as a nice way to alienate all current owners of the X360 XID wheels, as well as owners of all other HID wheels.

Not even to speak about nonsense about implementing FFB regarding RPM, ABS effects of shifting (although he does not mention shifting). Any game can do it through existing HID or XID protocols, while I happen to have that strange Fanatec pedals that produce ABS-effect and vibration for... years now? And I also heard that new Fanatec CSS shifter supports... tactile force feedback? Yeah, Never Seen Before Equational Effects™

about "New Modularity"
...what we've done is created a new modularity of the platform.. (I really can't even comment on the "moving the buttons" story, it is too mind-boggling, I want to bite my keyboard in half..).. there is additional components that can be added over time.. different shifer combination.. different pedal type.. you can add gauges..

Yeah, it is groundbreaking and never seen before... wait. Hm. Where have I seen such "new modularity"? Hmm.. Oh, yeah, I remember! I happen to have a great wheel in room next door, it is Xbox360 official product licensed by Microsoft with official title Forza Motorsport Force Feedback wheel! I added additional components on it over time - from sequential shifter from strange Japanese manufacturer, to new pedals with clutch, and I am waiting a sequential shifter with force feeedback that is 100% compatible with that wheel. Yeah, Never Seen Before New Modularity™

about Thrustmaster 458 Italia wheel
clearly it's a 1:1 mapping of a classic 458 Italia..and you have power inside, so only small cable...

It is NOT 1:1 mapping, since the actual wheel rim is significantly smaller than original F458 wheel (only 70% size of the original wheel).. and I really wouldn't be proud with motors that "consumes less power" - because internal power means small motors and small motors implies weaker FFB IMO. For example, Fanatec CSRE have very strong main motor with 2 separate motors used for vibration only. I really can't imagine this small wheel will be able to meet strength of FFB supplied by CSRE.

about MadCatz whel
the wheel is swappable.. so when you want to do F1 racing or GT racing, whatever your favorite racing style is, you're going to be able to buy wheels that matches that style.. so you make that initial investment and you just add a pieces over time.. and when you look at the pedals, it has the level of adjustability we have never seen before.. you can actually adjust the width between the pedals, pedal throw, adjust the spring for the dampening and resistance..

This is utterly despicable. All of the above can be done on the very Xbox360 Fanatec Forza Motorsport Force Feedback wheel (rim swapping) and its CSP (and later CSPV2) pedal set. On top of the "never seen before features" we have on Fanatec CSPV2, we can adjust ABS resistance, shake of additional vibration motor for pedals (one XboxOne has not yet discovered - it "could be implemented in the future thanx to equational effects") and regulate dampening not only by tensioning the springs, but also by replacing springs with sturdier ones (for 10$ in your local RC-car shop, because CSPV2 pedals uses RC-standard springs) or by filling the oil-damper with oil with higher density. Oh, and I also happen to have a third pedal, you know, that uses functionality Forza Morosport 5 is delivering.. the clutch, you've probably heard about that?

about X360 compatibility
when we think about things such as controller pairing or level of force feedback changes.. unfortunately X360 wheels are not compatible with XboxOne..

So, basically, we have 2 reasons. One is change of wireless communication standard, from X360 RF to XboxOne Wi-Fi. Okay. Other is "level of force feedback changes" where new Xinput is way better then old one. Okay. So, once again, no usage of USB HID option, which would allow to completely forget about "controller pairing" and "level of force feedback changes" and would finally allow for normal plug-and-play, not to speak about utterly un-necessary features for Forza players, such a ability to use controller and wheel in the same time (you know, for playing with Livery Editor, PhotoMode or Autovista without being actually forced to exit the game and boot it again with controller in order to get your FFB and sensitivity properly working on the wheel once you return to the wheel again, because damn Xinput emulates FFB only at the system-boot due to API limitations).

And for the final punch:
we gave the hardware manufacturers ability to do things they've never did before

Really? Except every single one of points above is covered by Fanatec models either through existing Fanatec eco-system or either through existing Fanatec support for HID FFB through USB connectivity. What a hypocrisy, deliberate misinforming and despicable attitude. This is really a sad day for many racers and another lost chance for Microsoft to establish its platform and one of its most important franchises as the true home for racing fans from other platforms and its own previous generation of Xbox hardware.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
just saw todays bad news. seriously rotten, especially if amar is right and there is no true good reason. if i were one of the ones affected, this would be enough to push me to ps4 (assuming their wheels work).
 

amar212

Member
So what's new with Xinput 1.4?

Anyone know yet?

Just to make it clear, I am not sure it is 1.4 used - I said "presume" in text above. XboxOne XID is clearly different than older version used by X360 but I still have to find proper confirmation it is 1.4. It could also be a modificated 1.3 (also newer then x360 one), but since 1.4 is the latest version, I suppose they are implementing that one.
 

nib95

Banned
On my phone. Can someone summarise what's going on with the Xbox One steering wheel support? Can I use the G25/CSR Elite with it or not?
 
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