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Frank Ocean pens letter to Grammy producers, annihilating them in the process.

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First off, cut the bullshit patronizing tone.

Secondly, I would say that derision exists towards artists whom people don't exemplify artistry. Take Taylor, for example. Taylor isn't someone who I would claim is an artist, rather a brand manager who can sing what is written for her or what she herself writes over beats made by someone else. None of her albums contain deeper interpretations, nuanced themes, narratives other than the ones boosting her personal brand, or complexity to them. She's an artist in so far as she knows what to create to keep her image perfect. Compare her to someone like Grimes, someone who I consider an artist because Grimes tries. She tries to create narratives with weird shit in them, she tries her hand and self-production, at finding new talent, at design, and she largely succeeds. Grimes or Charli XCX or FKA Twigs or Jenny Hval are all artists because they try to push the boundaries of their genre instead of complacently churn out songs that pander to their audience's expectations. Even taking Taylor's music in a vacuum away from her personal life, her music is more vapid than something like a Grimes or Twigs or a Tinashe, because her subject matter is confined to her relationships, romantic or otherwise. In short, Taylor Swift is an artist because she lacks the genre-pushing ambition her fellow artists seem to do so well.

Thirdly, your implied belief that GAF is inherently misogynistic in the way it treats media is horseshit. There are people on this forum who enjoy largely female media as are there people on this forum who will shout their love of waifus, abusers, and jiggle physics from the mountain tops. I honestly don't know the breakdowns for artists and which have primarily female audiences and which ones do. In terms of pop music, I know people on this forum like the work of the aforementioned Grimes, FKA Twigs, ANOHNI, Jenny Hval, Charli XCX, Bjork, Kate Bush, Fiona Apple, and very likely more. Going into electronic, you have the Black Madonna, Jlin, Fatima Al Qadiri, Elysia Crampton, Uniiqu3, Suzanne Ciani, Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith, GFOTY and so much more. These are all artists that people on this forum most certainly like, but can't exactly create a topic about because no one would respond to them. Unfortunately, the controversy and bullshit will always rise to the top. Take the OT for Bat For Lashes' new album, 12 posts total because no one else cared to actually go in and listen to it.

Fourthly, "Yes, it is completely valid to think Kanye releases better music than Taylor, however, the moment someone has the reverse opinion it is considered blasphemous. Hell, Taylor could be substituted for ANY artist whose primary audience is women and the same level of bile would have been thrown." In this statement, the reason the opposite gets derision is because people don't equate Kanye and Taylor to be on the same level of artistry. I don't because I don't see Taylor's music as anything greater than pop songs meant to light up the charts while reinforcing her status as music's number one heartbreaker feminist. At least in Kanye's music, you can dig deeper and find themes and nuance. I don't think you can for 1989, unless "Style" is actually about Taylor's continual fear at being left alone as her life becomes defined by her breakup headlines. As for the second part, replace "Taylor Swift" with "Bjork" or "Kate Bush" or "Fiona Apple" or "Sleater Kinney" or "Grouper" or "Missy Elliot" or whomever, and you have people who will more than likely pick the females over Kanye because their music has earned that artistic respect.

Finally and to wrap this monologue up, "1989" beat "TPaB" on one metric alone; sales. On every other conceivable level, "To Pimp A Butterfly" exceeded "1989"; on artistry exhibited, on themes & nuances, on issues touched upon, on cultural relevance to events outside of your daily commute, on communicating someone else's larger struggles to the world. Time is going to be a lot more favorable to "TPaB" than "Taylor Swift Gets Her Heart Broken Vol. 5".

I'll call you out on this. Good and memorable music is not all about themes and nuance required to tell a story. If it were, punk rock of 30 years ago exceeds or at least equaled rap today. Are you a fan of that? Probably not.

At its core, music is all about emotional connection. That's why Taylor Swift is popular. It's why country music works. It's why you like Kendrick. Good music connects emotionally through many avenues. Sometimes it's the lyrics but not always because otherwise you'd be arguing instrumental music could never be good and I think you surely wouldn't say that. Instead it's only the feelings that music makes you feel that matter.

In this way, Taylor Swift is a massive success. Far more than Kendrick Lamar. Because she makes music that connects with people. It's not cerebral and nuanced and groundbreaking, but none of those are requirements for objectively good music. Subjectively? Perhaps. But that's only because certain music connects better emotionally with certain people. That's why we all like different things.

What was the best album that year? Depends on the metric, but I'd guess it would need to be the album that actually did connect with that many people. The awards can't consider every album so it can't be the album with the potential to connect with the most. That would be Taylor because Top 40 brought her to the largest audience.

I think you've simply missed the reason music is good. Nothing is objectively good. I hate rap and hip hop. I think TPAB is a terrible album. I don't really like 1989 either. I'm not wrong. But neither are you.
 

effzee

Member
Music/Creativity is all about recycling and re-expressing messages. I don't really understand what you mean by "new message", like B.O.B bringing out a song about the world being flat in 2016?

I suppose Kendrick doesn't break ground with a brand-new message on TPAB but some thinking points he brings up on that album...

The Blacker The Berry



This single was released in the wake of the Ferguson riots and Kendrick makes the point that as much as he tries to integrate with his race's "culture", he questions how he can be upset about the unjust killing of Blacks when Kendrick (possibly not actually him) has killed in the name of gang violence. I think that's quite a unique message/critical thinking topic in today's music.

Thanks for explaining music to me.

Point was you can't say Taylor and her genre of music is devoid of message when there are songs with message. And you can't claim that the message is delivered by other popular artists as well or better to invalidate that yes there is a message.

I'm not arguing for her music I don't listen to it. Rap is my favorite and at times only genre of music. I love Kendrick and I know his message, narratives, and love his creativity but overall find the message argument to be nonsense.

Social rap has been around for ever and some rappers have devoted their careers to it so I always find the message or what new message is so and so delivering to be utterly moronic.

Taylor is a pop artist so her songs, like 99.9% of music in the history of music, is going to be about love.

Kendrick's message is more socially relevant, important, and to me musically superior but it's nothing new.

Music doesn't have to be new to be great and at the end of day not everyone is looking for the same thing out of their music. I like my rap a bit more socially aware and aggressive, some don't. Some people just like feel good pop music some don't.

My wife likes Adele cause she likes to cry along to it.

Who cares? None of these artists are delivering new messages. Enjoy what you enjoy.
 

Aomber

Member
I'll call you out on this. Good and memorable music is not all about themes and nuance required to tell a story. If it were, punk rock of 30 years ago exceeds or at least equaled rap today. Are you a fan of that? Probably not.

At its core, music is all about emotional connection. That's why Taylor Swift is popular. It's why country music works. It's why you like Kendrick. Good music connects emotionally through many avenues. Sometimes it's the lyrics but not always because otherwise you'd be arguing instrumental music could never be good and I think you surely wouldn't say that. Instead it's only the feelings that music makes you feel that matter.

In this way, Taylor Swift is a massive success. Far more than Kendrick Lamar. Because she makes music that connects with people. It's not cerebral and nuanced and groundbreaking, but none of those are requirements for objectively good music. Subjectively? Perhaps. But that's only because certain music connects better emotionally with certain people. That's why we all like different things.

What was the best album that year? Depends on the metric, but I'd guess it would need to be the album that actually did connect with that many people. The awards can't consider every album so it can't be the album with the potential to connect with the most. That would be Taylor because Top 40 brought her to the largest audience.

I think you've simply missed the reason music is good. Nothing is objectively good. I hate rap and hip hop. I think TPAB is a terrible album. I don't really like 1989 either. I'm not wrong. But neither are you.

I agree with this. Music is such a subjective thing, I mean I'm an absolute music fanatic, but I just don't like To Pimp A Butterfly. I've tried, I've listened to it so many times. I appreciate it for what it is and the artistry, but I can't enjoy it for the life of me.

I don't like 1989 either just to be clear
 
lol he's petty af. 1989 deserved AOTY. This isn't one of those situations

giphy.gif
 

LionPride

Banned
I got no problem with folks liking 1989, it's a good album, but don't try and tell me it was better than To Pimp A Butterfly or SOUND & COLOR for fuck's sake

Hell, it was really equal to BBTM by Weeknd, which was not as good as his mixtapes were!
 

Aselith

Member
The most annihilating thing in the letter imo

Taylor aint worried. He spent a few lines talking about his album sales and money to show success and we know damn well that she demolishes him on both fronts. AND she got the award. Stay salty, Ocean!
 
Artist vs musicians vs performers.

Avatar vs art house movies.

MJ was popular artist and performer. There were better musicians at his time too. Same with all new guys and gals.

Just enjoy.
 

XAL

Member
Rich people something something who gives a shit something something subjectivity something something none of this MATTERS
 
Rich people something something who gives a shit something something subjectivity something something none of this MATTERS
So the adoption of black musical culture and the refusal to recognize young black artists from an institution that claims to be the authority on music is meaningless?
 

Damerman

Member
First off, cut the bullshit patronizing tone.

Secondly, I would say that derision exists towards artists whom people don't exemplify artistry. Take Taylor, for example. Taylor isn't someone who I would claim is an artist, rather a brand manager who can sing what is written for her or what she herself writes over beats made by someone else. None of her albums contain deeper interpretations, nuanced themes, narratives other than the ones boosting her personal brand, or complexity to them. She's an artist in so far as she knows what to create to keep her image perfect. Compare her to someone like Grimes, someone who I consider an artist because Grimes tries. She tries to create narratives with weird shit in them, she tries her hand and self-production, at finding new talent, at design, and she largely succeeds. Grimes or Charli XCX or FKA Twigs or Jenny Hval are all artists because they try to push the boundaries of their genre instead of complacently churn out songs that pander to their audience's expectations. Even taking Taylor's music in a vacuum away from her personal life, her music is more vapid than something like a Grimes or Twigs or a Tinashe, because her subject matter is confined to her relationships, romantic or otherwise. In short, Taylor Swift is an artist because she lacks the genre-pushing ambition her fellow artists seem to do so well.

Thirdly, your implied belief that GAF is inherently misogynistic in the way it treats media is horseshit. There are people on this forum who enjoy largely female media as are there people on this forum who will shout their love of waifus, abusers, and jiggle physics from the mountain tops. I honestly don't know the breakdowns for artists and which have primarily female audiences and which ones do. In terms of pop music, I know people on this forum like the work of the aforementioned Grimes, FKA Twigs, ANOHNI, Jenny Hval, Charli XCX, Bjork, Kate Bush, Fiona Apple, and very likely more. Going into electronic, you have the Black Madonna, Jlin, Fatima Al Qadiri, Elysia Crampton, Uniiqu3, Suzanne Ciani, Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith, GFOTY and so much more. These are all artists that people on this forum most certainly like, but can't exactly create a topic about because no one would respond to them. Unfortunately, the controversy and bullshit will always rise to the top. Take the OT for Bat For Lashes' new album, 12 posts total because no one else cared to actually go in and listen to it.

Fourthly, "Yes, it is completely valid to think Kanye releases better music than Taylor, however, the moment someone has the reverse opinion it is considered blasphemous. Hell, Taylor could be substituted for ANY artist whose primary audience is women and the same level of bile would have been thrown." In this statement, the reason the opposite gets derision is because people don't equate Kanye and Taylor to be on the same level of artistry. I don't because I don't see Taylor's music as anything greater than pop songs meant to light up the charts while reinforcing her status as music's number one heartbreaker feminist. At least in Kanye's music, you can dig deeper and find themes and nuance. I don't think you can for 1989, unless "Style" is actually about Taylor's continual fear at being left alone as her life becomes defined by her breakup headlines. As for the second part, replace "Taylor Swift" with "Bjork" or "Kate Bush" or "Fiona Apple" or "Sleater Kinney" or "Grouper" or "Missy Elliot" or whomever, and you have people who will more than likely pick the females over Kanye because their music has earned that artistic respect.

Finally and to wrap this monologue up, "1989" beat "TPaB" on one metric alone; sales. On every other conceivable level, "To Pimp A Butterfly" exceeded "1989"; on artistry exhibited, on themes & nuances, on issues touched upon, on cultural relevance to events outside of your daily commute, on communicating someone else's larger struggles to the world. Time is going to be a lot more favorable to "TPaB" than "Taylor Swift Gets Her Heart Broken Vol. 5".

giphy.gif
 

Damerman

Member
It is, but not when that's been the topic you've explored for 4 previous albums, just this time in pop. Swift's entire image is predicated on her relationships, so she doesn't do much to stray away from it. In addition, her music doesn't feel boundary pushing the same way iconic albums like "Thriller" or "Jagged Little Pill" or "Like A Prayer" did. Swift knows her wheelhouse and her fans' wants, and she gives them what they want; artists don't do that, choosing to challenge themselves instead of following up on the same set of ideas and themes over and over.


I'd agree, "1989" was deserving of some award, but I don't think it deserved the highest-profile Album of The Year award that ostensibly reflects the entire music industry.

"To Pimp a Butterfly" was a cultural touchstone, it was an album that not only spoke about the modern black experience but it touched on fame's corrupting touch and faith and skin color and more. It was an album that strived to encapsulate what it was like to be a famous black celebrity. It tried to do something more grand and complex than just being a set of catchy songs about relationships, romantic or friendly or unfriendly. It was an album that not only got high praise from the President of the US but was also recently inducted into Harvard's inaugural hip-hop library along with Tribe Called Quest's "Low End Theory", Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" and Nas' "Illmatic." Its provided the theme to protests, its been taught in some college courses, and its generally regarded as a classic album for our troubled times.

"1989" had none of that. You didn't see people chanting "Welcome to New York" at protests, nor did you see the president claim "Style" was his favorite song of 2015, nor do you see professors talking about the thematic impact of "New Romantics" in the album. It's fine for what it is, a collection of songs that talk about TS's life and appeal to her base, but the fact it doesn't go out of its way to make listening to it an experience, something you need to listen to in full, something you need to listen to over and over to find bits you've been missing, is a disservice to the album format and frankly an example of a lack of vision for the album as a whole.

I have no doubt TS has faced a lot of shit in her life by virtue of her being a woman. But even in that case, her presence as one of the biggest stars on the planet juxtaposed by her unwillingness to speak out is deafening. She didn't speak out during the election at all nor did she participate in any of the rallies. Even beyond that, she isn't above attacking other women if they make a snide remark about her and invokes the spirit of feminism against them, see Tina Fey & Amy Poehler, Nicki Minaj, Katy Perry.

I know a lot of people see Taylor's music as just break-up songs or songs about your ex or songs about finding love and nothing more, but you can't really say Swift hasn't pigeonholed herself as pop's #1 purveyor of the stuff. And while there are people out there who hate on her because of this, I don't like her because of the cracks in her facade, like the attacks on those who snipe at her brand or her backstab of Kanye or her general apolitical stance in a year that needs powerful people to speak out. At the end of the day, Swift is a star who made a good album that sold well and Lamar was a duller star who made a phenomenal album that sold less and didn't get as much radio play. And the system that has been continually critiqued for its refusal to recognize young black artists made a choice that not only reflected poorly on them in terms of image but also showed that they don't truly recognize the best album of the year. And that's where we're at now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUKbl3728Pk


here is what torre is referencing for those of you who lack culture.
 

bort

Member
First off, cut the bullshit patronizing tone.

Secondly, I would say that derision exists towards artists whom people don't exemplify artistry. Take Taylor, for example. Taylor isn't someone who I would claim is an artist, rather a brand manager who can sing what is written for her or what she herself writes over beats made by someone else.


swifts 2 AOTY have less writing credits and producer credits than TPAB

 

Servbot24

Banned
.

At its core, music is all about emotional connection. That's why Taylor Swift is popular. It's why country music works. It's why you like Kendrick. Good music connects emotionally through many avenues. Sometimes it's the lyrics but not always because otherwise you'd be arguing instrumental music could never be good and I think you surely wouldn't say that. Instead it's only the feelings that music makes you feel that matter.

I gotta strongly disagree here. A lot of my very favorite music is emotionally void.

That's... actually interesting.

What's interesting about it? I can't even comprehend how's it's possible to care how many people wrote a song - or worse, consider that to be an indicator of quality. Are the sound vibrations pleasing to your ears? That's all there is.
 
swifts 2 AOTY have less writing credits and producer credits than TPAB
If you sample something, you have to credit the original writers of the song you're sampling.

Not even that, look at the notes. Songs feature background singers as well that get writing credits.
 

BadAss2961

Member
If you sample something, you have to credit the original writers of the song you're sampling.
Bit of an odd way of crediting. Would be more accurate putting that on the producer's credit.

Hip-hop might need separate sampling credits altogether with it being so prevalent.
 

janoDX

Member
Damn, how does Kendrick have so many writers on every track?

Sampling and not hiding ghost writers, instead he includes them.

Taylor is known for having ghost writers and hiding them.

Taylor aint worried. He spent a few lines talking about his album sales and money to show success and we know damn well that she demolishes him on both fronts. AND she got the award. Stay salty, Ocean!

Oh look a 17 year old teenager!
 
I'll call you out on this. Good and memorable music is not all about themes and nuance required to tell a story. If it were, punk rock of 30 years ago exceeds or at least equaled rap today. Are you a fan of that? Probably not.

At its core, music is all about emotional connection. That's why Taylor Swift is popular. It's why country music works. It's why you like Kendrick. Good music connects emotionally through many avenues. Sometimes it's the lyrics but not always because otherwise you'd be arguing instrumental music could never be good and I think you surely wouldn't say that. Instead it's only the feelings that music makes you feel that matter.

In this way, Taylor Swift is a massive success. Far more than Kendrick Lamar. Because she makes music that connects with people. It's not cerebral and nuanced and groundbreaking, but none of those are requirements for objectively good music. Subjectively? Perhaps. But that's only because certain music connects better emotionally with certain people. That's why we all like different things.

What was the best album that year? Depends on the metric, but I'd guess it would need to be the album that actually did connect with that many people. The awards can't consider every album so it can't be the album with the potential to connect with the most. That would be Taylor because Top 40 brought her to the largest audience.

I think you've simply missed the reason music is good. Nothing is objectively good. I hate rap and hip hop. I think TPAB is a terrible album. I don't really like 1989 either. I'm not wrong. But neither are you.

Perfect post.
 
I'll call you out on this. Good and memorable music is not all about themes and nuance required to tell a story. If it were, punk rock of 30 years ago exceeds or at least equaled rap today. Are you a fan of that? Probably not.

At its core, music is all about emotional connection. That's why Taylor Swift is popular. It's why country music works. It's why you like Kendrick. Good music connects emotionally through many avenues. Sometimes it's the lyrics but not always because otherwise you'd be arguing instrumental music could never be good and I think you surely wouldn't say that. Instead it's only the feelings that music makes you feel that matter.

In this way, Taylor Swift is a massive success. Far more than Kendrick Lamar. Because she makes music that connects with people. It's not cerebral and nuanced and groundbreaking, but none of those are requirements for objectively good music. Subjectively? Perhaps. But that's only because certain music connects better emotionally with certain people. That's why we all like different things.

What was the best album that year? Depends on the metric, but I'd guess it would need to be the album that actually did connect with that many people. The awards can't consider every album so it can't be the album with the potential to connect with the most. That would be Taylor because Top 40 brought her to the largest audience.

I think you've simply missed the reason music is good. Nothing is objectively good. I hate rap and hip hop. I think TPAB is a terrible album. I don't really like 1989 either. I'm not wrong. But neither are you.
Music is inherently subjective, I'm not denying that.

But there's a difference between awarding opinion and awarding fact. An award that represents the choice of the People already exists. What the Grammys are supposed to award is quality. The Grammys are the music industry as a whole coming together and saying this album was the best of the year. It's been positioned as something prestigious and meritorious. You may not be able to say an album is objectively good, but when you have a major institution snubbing what was the album of the year for many influential music institutions, you have a fucking problem.

TPaB was the "album of the year at least 48 times (so far), while also being chosen second 21 times and placing in the top 10 on 24 more lists. TPAB has a cumulative score of 210 on Metacritic’s point system, which gives an album 3 points for a 1st place vote, 2 points for 2nd place and 1 point for ranking 3-10th on a list. The second place album has 85 points." 1989 didn't earn #1 on anybody's list at all.

If you want an award an album for how popular it is, you give it an AMA, a Billboard award, a People's Choice Award, a Teen's Choice Award and whatever else there is out there. The Grammys position themselves as standing for quality, and the one album that everybody in the music news sphere certified as being the most quality album of the year was denied its spot.

I don't care if Taylor Swift makes you feel good or got pushed the most on radio. Kendrick Lamar created art, and Taylor Swift created songs. Kendrick tried to accomplish something greater with his music and demonstrated ambition while Taylor made the same "empowerment anthem" that kids TV has been telling you since the 70s and the same breakup songs except this time it was over synths and horns. There's nothing inspired about Taylor's album other than the fact she ditched country for pop.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
This is clickbait, nothing to see.

You should lay off the internet for awhile. The thread title, the tumblr gifs

The internet is for pooping, silly.

Music is inherently subjective, I'm not denying that.

But there's a difference between awarding opinion and awarding fact. An award that represents the choice of the People already exists. What the Grammys are supposed to award is quality. The Grammys are the music industry as a whole coming together and saying this album was the best of the year. It's been positioned as something prestigious and meritorious. You may not be able to say an album is objectively good, but when you have a major institution snubbing what was the album of the year for many influential music institutions, you have a fucking problem.

TPaB was the "album of the year at least 48 times (so far), while also being chosen second 21 times and placing in the top 10 on 24 more lists. TPAB has a cumulative score of 210 on Metacritic’s point system, which gives an album 3 points for a 1st place vote, 2 points for 2nd place and 1 point for ranking 3-10th on a list. The second place album has 85 points." 1989 didn't earn #1 on anybody's list at all.

If you want an award an album for how popular it is, you give it an AMA, a Billboard award, a People's Choice Award, a Teen's Choice Award and whatever else there is out there. The Grammys position themselves as standing for quality, and the one album that everybody in the music news sphere certified as being the most quality album of the year was denied its spot.

I don't care if Taylor Swift makes you feel good or got pushed the most on radio. Kendrick Lamar created art, and Taylor Swift created songs. Kendrick tried to accomplish something greater with his music and demonstrated ambition while Taylor made the same "empowerment anthem" that kids TV has been telling you since the 70s and the same breakup songs except this time it was over synths and horns. There's nothing inspired about Taylor's album other than the fact she ditched country for pop.

You did it again!
 
Come Away With Me Over The Rising was worse then 1989 over To Pimp A Butterfly. Hell I don't think 1989 or To Pimp A Butterfly devised it X and Wilder Mind are fair better albums then both of them and they didn't even get nominated.
 

Toparaman

Banned
Where's the annihilation? They probably read his letter, shrugged their shoulders, and moved on.

Also, this whole idea that TPaB should've won over 1989 based on artistic merit doesn't make any sense. The Grammys are awarded based on votes, not some kind of rigorous critical evaluation. And who are the voters? Well, here's the criteria:
Voting Member

This classification is for creative and technical professionals who qualify in at least one of the categories of eligibility. All recordings must be commercially available in the U.S. either through traditional distribution channels or recognized online retailers/streaming services.

Recordings Released Online Only:

Must have 12 qualifying digital tracks or equivalent duration of content;*
One qualifying track must have been released within five years of receipt of application;
Releases must be currently available for purchase through recognized online music retailers or recognized online music streaming services, defined as paid, full catalogue, audio-only, on-demand streaming and/or limited download subscription services, at the time of submission to The Academy; and
Recordings must be accompanied by verifiable documentation, e.g. liner notes, Allmusic.com.
Recordings Released Through Physical Distribution:

Recordings commercially released in the U.S. through physical distribution outlets.
Must have six physical tracks or equivalent duration of content.*
One qualifying track must have been released within five years of receipt of application.
Qualifying tracks must be currently available for sale through physical music retailers.
Recordings must be accompanied by verifiable documentation, e.g. liner notes, allmusic.com.
GRAMMY Nomination:

If you were nominated for a GRAMMY® Award within the previous five years.
Eligibility may be subject to career substantiation through the following documentation. The Academy recommends that applicants submit as much documentation as possible.

Recordings available for streaming/download through recognized music aggregators
Documented sales/chart information
Established, active website/social media/online presence including:
Current or historical touring dates/performances
Fan base interaction
Current band/artist information
Music videos
Music/media player with current releases available
Active marketing and promotion efforts
Print material
Press releases/EPK
Reviews of performances by print or online magazines
Press interviews
* Excluding intros, outros and interludes

A one year membership begins at $100. The Recording Academy approves membership at its sole discretion based on the assessment of the material submitted.

TLDR: pretty much anybody who's anybody in the music industry is qualified to vote. And likely do. They chose Taylor Swift over Kendrick, not the people who produce the awards.

You don't bash EviLore for your personal GOTY not being NeoGAF's GOTY. You bash the NeoGAF community. Frank and Kanye should aim their ire at their fellow recording artists, instead of some vague, ill-defined boogeyman.
 

HaloSon

Banned
Last night proved Franks was right on this. More artist should follow his lead and stop participating in this psychological bullshit of an awards show.
 
Music is inherently subjective, I'm not denying that.

But there's a difference between awarding opinion and awarding fact. An award that represents the choice of the People already exists. What the Grammys are supposed to award is quality. The Grammys are the music industry as a whole coming together and saying this album was the best of the year. It's been positioned as something prestigious and meritorious. You may not be able to say an album is objectively good, but when you have a major institution snubbing what was the album of the year for many influential music institutions, you have a fucking problem.

TPaB was the "album of the year at least 48 times (so far), while also being chosen second 21 times and placing in the top 10 on 24 more lists. TPAB has a cumulative score of 210 on Metacritic's point system, which gives an album 3 points for a 1st place vote, 2 points for 2nd place and 1 point for ranking 3-10th on a list. The second place album has 85 points." 1989 didn't earn #1 on anybody's list at all.

If you want an award an album for how popular it is, you give it an AMA, a Billboard award, a People's Choice Award, a Teen's Choice Award and whatever else there is out there. The Grammys position themselves as standing for quality, and the one album that everybody in the music news sphere certified as being the most quality album of the year was denied its spot.

I don't care if Taylor Swift makes you feel good or got pushed the most on radio. Kendrick Lamar created art, and Taylor Swift created songs. Kendrick tried to accomplish something greater with his music and demonstrated ambition while Taylor made the same "empowerment anthem" that kids TV has been telling you since the 70s and the same breakup songs except this time it was over synths and horns. There's nothing inspired about Taylor's album other than the fact she ditched country for pop.

I'm not talking about popularity. Never once did I say that. I said emotional connection. I get it - you don't connect with Taylor's music at any level. And that's about more than the lyrics - it's about the feeling you get when you listen to it. I've never been a teenage girl. The lyrics in her songs are not relevant to me personally. But the music can evoke an emotion that is relevant regardless of their quality. That's music. That's art.

Kendrick Lamar created art, sure. But so did Taylor Swift. Kendrick's is not more valid simply because he tried to accomplish something greater and demonstrated ambition. It's just not. Music isn't about the message - again, if it were, you'd love punk rock. You don't. Why don't you love 80's punk rock?

Taylor's music does cater to the lowest common denominator. That's why it's successful. Nearly everyone can relate at least a little bit. Kendrick's music maybe not so much. Maybe that's why it didn't win. Kendrick's was targeted at a specific audience and it no doubt works for them but Taylor's was targeted at everyone and it succeeds more often than not. Like her or her subject matter or not, but her music is good. Almost anyone can understand it. You can't say that about Kendrick.

Again, I'm not trying to put Kendrick's music down. I don't like it, but I know many do. Good for them and good for him. His music has validity and is worthwhile, obviously. That doesn't mean it deserves to win. The Grammy's aren't a popularity contest obviously, but they also aren't a contest about who can make the edgiest lyrics about a sensitive subject. What are they about? I don't know. I'm not sure the Grammy's know what they're about. I think it changes to suit the winner. But that's not the point.

The point is that music is subjective. TPaB is not objectively good, relevant, artistic, or "something greater." It is subjectively all of those things and more or less. It depends on who you ask. So the calls that it was somehow snubbed or more deserving - those are wrong because this is not objective. It's subjective.

I gotta strongly disagree here. A lot of my very favorite music is emotionally void.

It's not that the music has emotion. It's that it connects with you emotionally. It sounds like it does.
 
Where's the annihilation? They probably read his letter, shrugged their shoulders, and moved on.

Also, this whole idea that TPaB should've won over 1989 based on artistic merit doesn't make any sense. The Grammys are awarded based on votes, not some kind of rigorous critical evaluation. And who are the voters? Well, here's the criteria:


TLDR: pretty much anybody who's anybody in the music industry is qualified to vote. And likely do. They chose Taylor Swift over Kendrick, not the people who produce the awards.

You don't bash EviLore for your personal GOTY not being NeoGAF's GOTY. You bash the NeoGAF community. Frank and Kanye should aim their ire at their fellow recording artists, instead of some vague, ill-defined boogeyman.
I know you're banned, but here's why your opinion is misinformed.

In 2014, a journalist talked about his experience as a Grammy voter and basically exposed why so many albums that aren't the critical consensus get wins.
Members of that committee were not supposed to concern ourselves with quality—our job was to determine whether each album belonged in the Reggae category. The rules stated that 51% of the album’s tracks had to consist of reggae music (a genre that includes such disparate styles as roots reggae, ska, dub, and dancehall). Some albums were easy to categorize while others posed more of a challenge. Where, for instance, was the line between dancehall and electronica or rap or alternative?

Along with the official guidelines, I soon learned another unwritten rule during private conversations with other committee members: be careful about green-lighting an album by someone who was really famous if you don’t want to see that album win a Grammy. Because famous people tend to get more votes from clueless Academy members, regardless of the quality of their work. This is especially true in specialized categories like reggae and, to a lesser extent, hip-hop, where many voting members of the Recording Academy (who tend to skew older than the demographic for rap music) may not be well acquainted with the best releases in any given year. That's the reason why famous names like Marley, Toots, and Sly & Robbie stand a much better chance of winning in the reggae category than, say, Beres Hammond.
Already we have a flaw of the most famous getting the wins, not the best musician.
Although I’d been writing about reggae music for 15 years or so when the Grammys first reached out, I was not a member of the Recording Academy at the time. But I soon learned that I could be. All you need is six or more credits on official music releases—these credits can include vocalists, conductors, songwriters, composers, engineers, producers, instrumentalists, arrangers, art directors, album notes writers, narrators, and music video artists or technicians. Since I’d written many liner notes over the years I qualified. So I paid my membership fee and became a proud voting member.
So now you have an easy way of becoming a voting member; as long as your name gets credited on an album, you can become a voting member. This means, in theory, DJ Khaled's infant son can now vote for the Grammys as he's an executive producer on Khaled's album.
Bottom line: the vast majority of the nominations are chosen by people who have little real expertise in a given field. I refrained from voting in heavy metal and classical because I know very little about those genres. But I could have if I wanted to, and that strikes me as a problem.
And here lies the problem. If you have people that vote on name recognition and don't really care about the genres they vote for, they undoubtedly skew towards the names they know, like Macklemore because he was on the radio everyday courtesy of "Thrift Shop."
Finally, Billboard wrote this article about some anonymous voters speaking out about the voting and they said this:
"The voting bloc is still too white, too old and too male. I do see a significant difference from [what it was] three or four years ago -- the voters are becoming more diverse in terms of minorities, females and younger ages -- but there's still a long way to go."
"Taylor [Swift] made a great album. But when it comes down to actual voting, it's not just about the music. Taylor stands up for causes that matter to artists and songwriters -- and an important part of the Grammys is advocacy. When you show up at events to support what The Recording Academy does, that goes a long way with voters. It's said there's no lobbying or soliciting -- I don't want to call it 'lobbying' -- but there is a kind of 'innocent, healthy' lobbying.

"What always plays on people's minds is the last people who made an impression on them. We all have short ­attention spans. Let's say in the case of album of the year, Alabama Shakes deserves it. But if Taylor Swift got invited to the Grammy Museum and she showed up and that's my last impression ... when I see those names come across the ballot, I'm going to be thinking about Taylor ­coming to sing for us live."
All this means that the Grammys are less and less about quality and more and more about who's the most famous, who gets the most radio play, and who panders the most.
In each category, the voters select 15 albums or songs to be nominated. Then there are committees for each genre, and those committees narrow those 15 nominees down to five. Which I think is wrong, and I'm on a committee! On top of that, the committee can actually replace two of those five records that people actually voted for with records that weren't even in the initial top 15. My committee had, like, 15 people -- producers, managers, etc. -- and everyone had their own agenda. Myself included! In my category, at least one act that wasn't in the top 15 ended up with a Grammy nomination."

To tie this all together, you have a system where admittance is relatively easy if you're an executive, where you can influence voting to benefit your artists, where you don't listen to minor categories' submissions and can vote for the most famous person, where the majority of the base is old and white, and where lobbying can easily sway your opinion to give an award to the best quid pro quo artist.

It's horseshit and needs fundamental change. And that's why the Grammys are shit.
 
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