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Frank Ocean pens letter to Grammy producers, annihilating them in the process.

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The Grammy's are awful but this makes him sound a bit petulant and arrogant.

I loved Channel Orange but Blonde was only alright. Endless sounded more interesting but was really just a hodgepodge of ideas rather than good songwriting for the most part.
 

Auctopus

Member
I find it interesting that people only started fighting her corner tooth and nail when she properly entered the pop world. I guess this is just something fans have to do when you have the Katy Kats and Beyhive on your borders? 1989 is really bland songwriting compared to the stuff on RED to me, even though I enjoyed 1989 somewhat.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
I find it interesting that people only started fighting her corner tooth and nail when she properly entered the pop world. I guess this is just something fans have to do when you have the Katy Kats and Beyhive on your borders? 1989 is really bland songwriting compared to the stuff on RED to me, even though I enjoyed 1989 somewhat.

Here Comes A New Challenger!
 
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Very well said. Much better than I could do.

Nice post, though still so subjective in the end. Judging artistry more for what's behind than for the actual product made, and that's the usual talk when people go against pop artists. Writing about relationships and that stuff is perfectly valid as a topic, and ts has explored that in a lot of songs ( though still have touched other topics too, see Ronan for example).

Another thing, I never said TPAB wasn't deserving of the award, specially because it's solid and as you said, carries a lot of meaning. What i dislike is people downplaying 1989 when it is an iconic pop album totally deserving of a win too.

And we can't really negate that ts is surrounded by a lot of misoginy, specially on her romantic life shenanigans. It's not difficult to see that that toxic shit spreads out to people's perception of her music.
 

HotHamBoy

Member
Nice post, though still so subjective in the end. Judging artistry more for what's behind than for the actual product made, and that's the usual talk when people go against pop artists. Writing about relationships and that stuff is perfectly valid as a topic, and ts has explored that in a lot of songs ( though still have touched other topics too, see Ronan for example).

Another thing, I never said TPAB wasn't deserving of the award, specially because it's solid and as you said, carries a lot of meaning. What i dislike is people downplaying 1989 when it is an iconic pop album totally deserving of a win too.

And we can't really negate that ts is surrounded by a lot of misoginy, specially on her romantic life shenanigans. It's not difficult to see that that toxic shit spreads out to people's perception of her music.

I think you meant to quote/reply to torre_avenue

Me, personally, I'm not saying she isn't surrounded by misogyny, what woman isn't? Seems like a strawman argument in this context, though.
 
The fact that you assume I am a Swift fan is telling.

I simply noted the level of derision that Gaf has towards any music, movies, books, or related media whose primary audience is women. Yes, it is completely valid to think Kanye releases better music than Taylor, however, the moment someone has the reverse opinion it is considered blasphemous.

You can talk yourself into believing that there is no sexism involved if it really makes you feel better.

Is that what this is about? Then I could say you're the sexist for granting a lower standard to media with women as the primary audience ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. They certainly don't deserve the shallow shit that's heavily promoted towards them.

Hell, Taylor could be substituted for ANY artist whose primary audience is women and the same level of bile would have been thrown.

You're going to have a hard time proving that.

Let's look at Radiohead. They tour and take time off and tour and take time off and they write music all the while. Some of that music doesn't get recorded for years, or decades. True Love Waits was written between Pablo Honey and The Bends and it just now appeared on a studio record last year. They percolate. They wait til they are ready. They write songs, not albums. When they do put an album together they fit the pieces together from what they have rather than writing songs *for* an album.

They absolutely do write albums. They just know when it's better to wait a piece out until they start working on an album that it would better fit.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Reposting from Gaf-Hop:

Right...sorry I don't believe him, wether he would have won AOTY or not (not over Lemonade, but he may have knocked off Bieber or Drake or Stirgill). Anyway there is an argument to be made about 1989 winning over TPAB. I wish TPAB had won, but I can't exactly be mad that 1989 won.
 
Nice post, though still so subjective in the end. Judging artistry more for what's behind than for the actual product made, and that's the usual talk when people go against pop artists. Writing about relationships and that stuff is perfectly valid as a topic, and ts has explored that in a lot of songs ( though still have touched other topics too, see Ronan for example).
It is, but not when that's been the topic you've explored for 4 previous albums, just this time in pop. Swift's entire image is predicated on her relationships, so she doesn't do much to stray away from it. In addition, her music doesn't feel boundary pushing the same way iconic albums like "Thriller" or "Jagged Little Pill" or "Like A Prayer" did. Swift knows her wheelhouse and her fans' wants, and she gives them what they want; artists don't do that, choosing to challenge themselves instead of following up on the same set of ideas and themes over and over.

Another thing, I never said TPAB wasn't deserving of the award, specially because it's solid and as you said, carries a lot of meaning. What i dislike is people downplaying 1989 when it is an iconic pop album totally deserving of a win too.

And we can't really negate that ts is surrounded by a lot of misoginy, specially on her romantic life shenanigans. It's not difficult to see that that toxic shit spreads out to people's perception of her music.
I'd agree, "1989" was deserving of some award, but I don't think it deserved the highest-profile Album of The Year award that ostensibly reflects the entire music industry.

"To Pimp a Butterfly" was a cultural touchstone, it was an album that not only spoke about the modern black experience but it touched on fame's corrupting touch and faith and skin color and more. It was an album that strived to encapsulate what it was like to be a famous black celebrity. It tried to do something more grand and complex than just being a set of catchy songs about relationships, romantic or friendly or unfriendly. It was an album that not only got high praise from the President of the US but was also recently inducted into Harvard's inaugural hip-hop library along with Tribe Called Quest's "Low End Theory", Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" and Nas' "Illmatic." Its provided the theme to protests, its been taught in some college courses, and its generally regarded as a classic album for our troubled times.

"1989" had none of that. You didn't see people chanting "Welcome to New York" at protests, nor did you see the president claim "Style" was his favorite song of 2015, nor do you see professors talking about the thematic impact of "New Romantics" in the album. It's fine for what it is, a collection of songs that talk about TS's life and appeal to her base, but the fact it doesn't go out of its way to make listening to it an experience, something you need to listen to in full, something you need to listen to over and over to find bits you've been missing, is a disservice to the album format and frankly an example of a lack of vision for the album as a whole.

I have no doubt TS has faced a lot of shit in her life by virtue of her being a woman. But even in that case, her presence as one of the biggest stars on the planet juxtaposed by her unwillingness to speak out is deafening. She didn't speak out during the election at all nor did she participate in any of the rallies. Even beyond that, she isn't above attacking other women if they make a snide remark about her and invokes the spirit of feminism against them, see Tina Fey & Amy Poehler, Nicki Minaj, Katy Perry.

I know a lot of people see Taylor's music as just break-up songs or songs about your ex or songs about finding love and nothing more, but you can't really say Swift hasn't pigeonholed herself as pop's #1 purveyor of the stuff. And while there are people out there who hate on her because of this, I don't like her because of the cracks in her facade, like the attacks on those who snipe at her brand or her backstab of Kanye or her general apolitical stance in a year that needs powerful people to speak out. At the end of the day, Swift is a star who made a good album that sold well and Lamar was a duller star who made a phenomenal album that sold less and didn't get as much radio play. And the system that has been continually critiqued for its refusal to recognize young black artists made a choice that not only reflected poorly on them in terms of image but also showed that they don't truly recognize the best album of the year. And that's where we're at now.
 

Dantrist

Member
Too much salt is bad for you, Frankie.

Blonde was trash too

Andre's verse was the highlight.
"Blonde was trash, because Andre's verse was the highlight."
... Does not compute.

You know that having one of the best god damn verses in a long time on your album is actually an argument people would use to praise it, not call it trash?
 
Just wanted to come back and say I reread the thing, and "annihilating" is still making me lol.

The only part that was good was when he dragged Taylor for winning. Glad she's gradually being seen as the face of white mediocrity.
 
Personally until the Grammys decide whether they wanna be sales awards or artistry awards I am not going to even bother acknowledging them. There is nothing genuine about the awards and that makes it useless to me.
 

LionPride

Banned
Nice post, though still so subjective in the end. Judging artistry more for what's behind than for the actual product made, and that's the usual talk when people go against pop artists. Writing about relationships and that stuff is perfectly valid as a topic, and ts has explored that in a lot of songs ( though still have touched other topics too, see Ronan for example).

Another thing, I never said TPAB wasn't deserving of the award, specially because it's solid and as you said, carries a lot of meaning. What i dislike is people downplaying 1989 when it is an iconic pop album totally deserving of a win too.

And we can't really negate that ts is surrounded by a lot of misoginy, specially on her romantic life shenanigans. It's not difficult to see that that toxic shit spreads out to people's perception of her music.
1989 is not fucking iconic
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Why the fuck did young musicians start talking about grammy's again? When I was a kid even acknowledging them was lame as fuck. Now cool musicians write open letters about them? So weird.

It's a step above a people's choice award I guess.

This is a super fair question. In the 90s none of the grunge acts would even acknowledge that the Grammys existed it was so uncool.

I kind of remember tuning in for the year the the RHCP, U2 and Radiohead were all nominated and all three of the turned out for it.

I do feel like openly making fun of the grammys is better than ignoring them
 
Shake It Off is damn good. Some of y'all act like 1989 didn't say anything meaningful, but then again we're in the "Meaningful Olympics" atm.
 

jett

D-Member
It invaded all parts of American life. You didnt have to search for it to hear it. It had an almost Thriller like presence.

Pop-gaf has gone full pop-gaf.

Can't say I understand people hailing Frank Ocean and Kendrick Lamar as alleged musical geniuses either.

Personally, I don't really care much for the music of any of the people mentioned. Guess it has to do with being in my 30's and getting that "old man yells at cloud" feel when I listen to modern music.
 

Tall4Life

Member
To stop worrying about judgmental people who have nothing better to do but hate and try and bring you down? Like, if you see anything wrong with that then that is 100% on you.
I could line up pop songs and artists on a wall and throw darts and probably hit 1000 who have had that same message and conveyed it the same or in a similar way. There is nothing profound masterful about this, its generic pop music.
 

LionPride

Banned
Pop-gaf has gone full pop-gaf.

Can't say I understand people hailing Frank Ocean and Kendrick Lamar as alleged musical geniuses either.

Personally, I don't really care much for the music of any of the people mentioned. Guess it has to do with being in my 30's and getting that "old man yells at cloud" feel when I listen to modern music.
K.Dot is one of the best rappers ever, his music is great, his story telling is great. He is already a top 5 rapper ever.

Now, comparing 1989 to MJ's second best album? No no no. No.
 
I could line up pop songs and artists on a wall and throw darts and probably hit 1000 who have had that same message and conveyed it the same or in a similar way. There is nothing profound masterful about this, its generic pop music.
Music rarely has unique themes. Like, love, war, and oppression have been sung about since the dawn of time.
 

PillarEN

Member
It is the Grammy's Frank. The weakest major awards show for any entertainment medium. Maybe one day it will change its direction and be more about music appreciation. For now that's only reserved for some of the categories that are completely glossed over by all the magazines and news outlets. It is what it is. Joaquin Phoenix handles this the best way. By not giving a shit about award ceremonies in a subjective field.
 

effzee

Member
I could line up pop songs and artists on a wall and throw darts and probably hit 1000 who have had that same message and conveyed it the same or in a similar way. There is nothing profound masterful about this, its generic pop music.


By that standard all music. Kendrick is great but what new or unknown territory is he delivering? His message, ability, and sound are great but there is nothing new message wise.

This is why it's stupid to get into these debates about not saying anything, generic, and whatever liable ppl assign when they want to dismiss what they don't like.

I agree that grammys need to decide their criteria on what they celebrate but even if you had a clear cut manner to decide who wins AOTY, you would have ppl complain another album is was more deserving.

Again just enjoy the performances.
 

jstripes

Banned
The Grammys have never been about artistic merit. The Grammys are an industry circle jerk.

Everyone in this thread is fighting a war where no one wins.

At least it's not the Junos, where every year they have to fill their Celine Dion or Bryan Adams quota.
 

CDV13

Member
Yea, sorry, my friends keep telling me how amazing Blond is and I just don't get it either. Channel Orange and Noastalgia, Ultra are far better IMO.

TPAB was a snoozefest with a message. GKMC and Section 80 are superior on every level other than relaying a cohesive message. I think the storytelling of the day in GKMC is more impressive than anything on TPAB, let alone the much more enjoyable listen the songs provide.

^Thatbis my take on the arguments in here over those albums.

Regarding the snubs, it's the Grammys, they usually pick the most pop friendly music/album can. Not surprising.
 

IC5

Member
Why the fuck did young musicians start talking about grammy's again? When I was a kid even acknowledging them was lame as fuck. Now cool musicians write open letters about them? So weird.

It's a step above a people's choice award I guess.
I dunno man. But I remember when The Suburbs won. I wonder what happened to the Grammy committee which did that? Maybe they gave in to all the internet fleas saying "who is Arcade Fire?" "insert favorite pop idol here, should have won. Not these unknowns..."
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Top 5 musicians according to GAF:

T Swift
Eminem
whatever metal band from the late 70s/early 80s I listened to last
whatever shonen anime OST I listened to last
Run the Jewels
 

LionPride

Banned
Yea, sorry, my friends keep telling me how amazing Blond is and I just don't get it either. Channel Orange and Noastalgia, Ultra are far better IMO.

TPAB was a snoozefest with a message. GKMC and Section 80 are superior on every level other than relaying a cohesive message. I think the storytelling of the day in GKMC is more impressive than anything on TPAB, let alone the much more enjoyable listen the songs provide.

^Thatbis my take on the arguments in here over those albums.

Regarding the snubs, it's the Grammys, they usually pick the most pop friendly music/album can. Not surprising.

Blonde is far better than Frank's past albums and Channel Orange is in my top 10 albums off of Pyramids alone.

TPAB is a beautiful album, one I'll listen to all the way through constantly. I love every song on their. K.Dot has done what most artists can't do, advance constantly. From OD to Section.80 to GKMC to his best album, To Pimp A Butterfly
 
He did lie about Taylor. Taylor's obvious transition to a good pop album over a rap album of meaningful proportions was BAD tv. So I feel frank on that, but Blonde was boring soooo, yeah.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I'm not really sure why everyone hates the Grammy's? If you don't care, then don't watch it, or pay attention.
 

effzee

Member
Top 5 musicians according to GAF:

T Swift
Eminem
whatever metal band from the late 70s/early 80s I listened to last
whatever shonen anime OST I listened to last
Run the Jewels

Have you ever read a single Eminem thread? Pretty sure it's 90% hate and 10% people who like.

If there is a consensus, GAF loves pretty much ever rapper over Eminem with the exception of Jay Z.

Yea, sorry, my friends keep telling me how amazing Blond is and I just don't get it either. Channel Orange and Noastalgia, Ultra are far better IMO.

TPAB was a snoozefest with a message. GKMC and Section 80 are superior on every level other than relaying a cohesive message. I think the storytelling of the day in GKMC is more impressive than anything on TPAB, let alone the much more enjoyable listen the songs provide.

^Thatbis my take on the arguments in here over those albums.

Regarding the snubs, it's the Grammys, they usually pick the most pop friendly music/album can. Not surprising
.

This is a recent trend and even then not consistent. Beck over Beyonce or Arcade fire invalidate the theory.

I think it's simply they have no clue what's considered quality or simply popular, have no real metric to measure albums by, and just randomly select. Is it sales l, popularity, reviews, or impact? All at once?

They don't know especially with genres like rap dominating the youth and they have no idea what it is, how it works, and how to award it properly.
 

Auctopus

Member
By that standard all music. Kendrick is great but what new or unknown territory is he delivering? His message, ability, and sound are great but there is nothing new message wise.

Music/Creativity is all about recycling and re-expressing messages. I don't really understand what you mean by "new message", like B.O.B bringing out a song about the world being flat in 2016?

I suppose Kendrick doesn't break ground with a brand-new message on TPAB but some thinking points he brings up on that album...

The Blacker The Berry

It's funny how Zulu and Xhosa might go to war
Two tribal armies that want to build and destroy
Remind me of these Compton Crip gangs that live next door
Beefin' with Pirus, only death settle the score
So don't matter how much I say I like to preach with the Panthers
Or tell Georgia State "Marcus Garvey got all the answers"
Or try to celebrate February like it's my B-Day
Or eat watermelon, chicken, and Kool-Aid on weekdays
Or jump high enough to get Michael Jordan endorsements
Or watch BET cause urban support is important
So why did I weep when Trayvon Martin was in the street when gang banging make me kill a nigga blacker than me?
Hypocrite!

This single was released in the wake of the Ferguson riots and Kendrick makes the point that as much as he tries to integrate with his race's "culture", he questions how he can be upset about the unjust killing of Blacks when Kendrick (possibly not actually him) has killed in the name of gang violence. I think that's quite a unique message/critical thinking topic in today's music.
 
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