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Full translation of Mark Cerny's intrerview with Japanese press

C

Callibretto

Member
not expecting to read Phil Harrison in the article, wouldn't this mean MS have all the insider info of PS4 development up to the time Phil leave Sony? even simple stuff like Cerny is the lead architect or that it use x86

edit: nvm, I just check Phil left Sony at 2008, that's very early in PS4 development
 
C

Callibretto

Member
I didn't understand most of what he's talking about, but still interesting to read. reading the latest amd thread about ps4, I wish that nvidia and amd pissing match is filled with technical stuff like this. lol
 
S

stryke

Member
DieH@rd said:
They aim to prolong the life of PS4 by delaying the deployment of lowlevel APIs. Interesting tactics.
Click to expand...

My takeaway was that they will continue optimising their APIs and tools and release them accordingly. (Similar to libGCM I suspect). For example, Cerny alluded to HSA and that kind of stuff is in its infancy in the industry and will probably take time to further develop them.
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
stryke said:
My takeaway was that they will continue optimising their APIs and tools and release them accordingly. (Similar to libGCM I suspect). For example, Cerny alluded to HSA and that kind of stuff is in its infancy in the industry and will probably take time to further develop them.
Click to expand...

Yeah.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
This type of functionality isn’t used widely in the launch titles. However, I expect this to be used widely in many games throughout the life of the console and see this becoming an extremely important feature.
Click to expand...

This speaks volumes to the potential in improvement in both graphics and physics over the coming years. The part about data bypass reminds me of how XB3 is also going with the move engines, i.e. a way to extract from more from less by simply modifying the existing hardware.

Makes me somewhat believe that by the mid-late period of this console generation, we shall get very close to the "Infiltrator" demo in real time.

Regardless of PS4's commercial success, the paradigm shift in hardware design was one of best calls Sony could have made and it's all thanks to Mr. Cerny.
 
K

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
So interesting to read the southbridge has its own, embedded low power cpu dedicated for downloads/uploads and other I/o functions.......it even works when the ps4 is off/ asleep!
 
kikonawa

kikonawa

Member
Callibretto said:
not expecting to read Phil Harrison in the article, wouldn't this mean MS have all the insider info of PS4 development up to the time Phil leave Sony? even simple stuff like Cerny is the lead architect or that it use x86

edit: nvm, I just check Phil left Sony at 2008, that's very early in PS4 development
Click to expand...
Even then there are lots of non disclosure type of signed agreements that last for years
 
M

maltrain

Junior Member
DieH@rd said:
I think that this detailed translation of Mark Cerny's interview with japanese press deserves its own thread. It touched creation of PS4, difficulties of letting PS3 BC go, customizations of off-the-shelf PC hardware, and much more. Full kudos goes to gaffer rykomatsu who translated all this.
Click to expand...

Really thanks to YOU and RYKOMATSU for this... very, very interesting...
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Really fascinating article. I love reading about the PS4 architecture. It seems incredibly smart and efficient.
 
C

Cidd

Member
Corto said:
Great read. Thanks for all the work translating Rykomatsu!



It's nice. It's a strong mature (decades of development) kernel that enables multitasking and proprietary customization (ie. Apple OS X is BSD based also)
Click to expand...

Wow, didn't know that. thanks for sharing.
 
C

Cidd

Member
ricen-beans said:
Great work guys!

So considering PS4 will have x86 architecture which is more aligned to PC development, how easy would it be to "transfer" some current PC games to ps4?

Witcher 2
Bioshock infinite
Tomb Raider

These are just examples of games that look great on PC now, better than current console counterparts, and I'd imagine would run on "max settings" on PS4.

Or am I completely off base?....
Click to expand...

The only one from that list I see has a potential port is Bioshock Infinite, They could Add other incentive to buy it on the PS4/720 like a GOTY edition with all DLCs included just like what's happening with the Wii U and Deus Ex: HR.
 
O

onQ123

Member
stryke said:
My takeaway was that they will continue optimising their APIs and tools and release them accordingly. (Similar to libGCM I suspect). For example, Cerny alluded to HSA and that kind of stuff is in its infancy in the industry and will probably take time to further develop them.
Click to expand...

To me it seem like they are talking about creating a better API for using the GPGPU more like a CPU & that using HSA isn't going to get as much out of the system as having a API designed for the GPGPU & CPU to work as 1.



GPU Customization with use of GPGPU in Mind. Difference in Launch Title Numbers (cont’d)

Cerney: In the next few years, we’ll also be supporting a different approach

We have our own shader APIs, but in the future, we’ll provide functions which will allow deeper access to the hardware level and it will be possible to directly control hardware using the shader APIs. As a mid-term target, in addition to common PC APIs such as OpenGL and DirectX, we’ll provide full access to our hardware.

Regarding the CPU, we can use well known hardware, and regarding the GPU, as developers devote time to it, new possibilities which weren’t possible before will open up.

The properties of CPU and GPU are quite difference, so in the current stage, if you were to use an unified architecture such as HSA, it will be difficult to efficiently use the CPU and GPU. However, once the CPU and GPU are able to use the same APIs, development efficiency should increase exponentially. This will be rather huge. Thus, we expect to see this as somewhat of a long-term goal.
Click to expand...
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
maltrain said:
I don't understand that, technically speaking. Can you explain it why surprised you or what does than mean?
Click to expand...

There is zero PC's and mobile phones today that have mini CPU in their Southbridge. I really did not hear about that kind of Soutbridge module in existence until today [maybe someone can provide some info].

But the idea is great, Southbridge has access to everything important for lowpowered/bacground use[hard drive, network, bios]. What does Tech-GAF think, will it be ARM or x86 [if its BSD, then it pretty much has to be x86]? AMD can mix and match pretty much everything, and they have great lowpored x86 CPUs [Temash]. Will Southbridge access power-hungry GDDR5, or will hit have its own ram somewhere nearby [1GB of DDR3 will be PERFECT, especially if that CPU can take entire OS UI processing when console is fully powered]?
 
I

IcyEyes

Member
Just as an example…when the CPU and GPU exchange information in a generic PC, the CPU inputs information, and the GPU needs to read the information and clear the cache, initially. When returning the results, the GPU needs to clear the cache, then return the result to the CPU. We’ve created a cache bypass. The GPU can return the result using this bypass directly. By using this design, we can send data directly from the main memory to the GPU shader core. Essentially, we can bypass the GPU L1 and L2 cache. Of course, this isn’t just for data read, but also for write. Because of this, we have an extremely high bandwidth of 10GB/sec.
Click to expand...

I wish all people could really understand the difference between raw power and optimization.
Console will never be as "powerful" as a PC, but the optimization/customization make them extremely competitive and with very long legs.

That's why (for example) a Ps3 doesn't look so crappy after 7 years of life (The Last of us is impressive to look at).
That's why I think a console like the PS4 will stay very competitive for a long time and will give us awesome looking games, even if today the specs are not so "powerful" compared to a PC.

Optimization is everything, always!

Ps I like the comparison with Newey :)
 
K

Kung Fu Grip

Banned
ricen-beans said:
Wow at the comment section of that article lol. MS hasn't even announced their plans yet and we already have the MS defense force coming out.
Click to expand...

Oh wow i didn't even see those. I just posted it to show GAF>>>>>internet>>>>>> sarcasticly by me, GAF.

Mark Cerny, looks like a psychotic heroin addict as do you, but more so like a little boy that murdered his family with his controller in a fit of rage. The PS4's specs are underwhelming and indie shovelware won't save the tarnished PlayStation brand. They are last place, with everything they do.
Click to expand...

lololololol!

Good times ahead.
 
Coulomb_Barrier

Coulomb_Barrier

Member
This is an absolutely brilliant piece of work guys, really insightful stuff.

The part about the SPURS and the cache bypass is very interesting.

All in, I wonder the performance boost the PS4 will enjoy over equivalent PC parts. 40%? And then you take away that API restriction of PCs and the advantage is more still.
 
A

androvsky

Member
i-Lo said:
Pray tell, what is, "native supported floating point format"?
Click to expand...

I think he's asking if it'll support double-precision or single-precision floating point operations. A bit of a valid question since the Cell was notable for supporting double-precision in the SPUs when it came out, while today GPUs don't always support double-precision.

According to the AMD wiki, chances are the GPU in the PS4 will support double-precision, but it's not guaranteed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series
And it'll be a lot faster in single-precision anyway, as usual.

Double-precision floating point is the standard for most scientific calculations done on a computer, pretty much all modern CPUs support it. Single-precision floating point is less precise, but for things like games the extra performance is often worth the loss of accuracy. Basically, 32-bit vs. 64-bits, but with floats instead of ints.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point
The standard provides for many closely related formats, differing in only a few details. Five of these formats are called basic formats and others are termed extended formats, and three of these are especially widely used in computer hardware and languages:
Single precision, called "float" in the C language family, and "real" or "real*4" in Fortran. This is a binary format that occupies 32 bits (4 bytes) and its significand has a precision of 24 bits (about 7 decimal digits).
Double precision, called "double" in the C language family, and "double precision" or "real*8" in Fortran. This is a binary format that occupies 64 bits (8 bytes) and its significand has a precision of 53 bits (about 16 decimal digits).
Click to expand...
 
Portugeezer

Portugeezer

Member
private400 said:
LOAD THOSE MEGATON BOMBS!!!


8y7XxtGl.png

MY BODY IS READY !!!!
Click to expand...

Vita had many titles for launch, but no real system sellers. All I'm saying is, many titles doesn't mean many great titles... but I am hopeful!

Killzone Shadow Fall has potential to be the best KZ game (I think the story about a divided city. Watch Dogs we all know how good that looks. Infamous will be great I'm sure, the previous games were great. Drive Club is looking good too.

No shitty Riiiiiidge Racer or usual launch crap ports.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
androvsky said:
I think he's asking if it'll support double-precision or single-precision floating point operations. A bit of a valid question since the Cell was notable for supporting double-precision in the SPUs when it came out, while today GPUs don't always support double-precision.

According to the AMD wiki, chances are the GPU in the PS4 will support double-precision, but it's not guaranteed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series
And it'll be a lot faster in single-precision anyway, as usual.

Double-precision floating point is the standard for most scientific calculations done on a computer, pretty much all modern CPUs support it. Single-precision floating point is less precise, but for things like games the extra performance is often worth the loss of accuracy. Basically, 32-bit vs. 64-bits, but with floats instead of ints.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation.
 
M

missile

Member
i-Lo said:
Pray tell, what is, "native supported floating point format"?
Click to expand...
The native format is the format the FPU is wired to. For example, the Cell was
wired to a non-IEEE-754 compliant single precision format, which runs at
full speed of the arithmetic unit. But it could also do IEEE-754 compliant
double precision operation, but at the cost of going extra rounds - degrading
the performance a lot.

I do not expect we will get an IEEE-754 compliant double precision floating-point
format, nor even an IEEE-754 compliant single precision format, which is way
too much for a gaming machine and slows down performance. But at times some
hardware allows the arithmetic unit to be configurable within this regard.

androvsky said:
... According to the AMD wiki, chances are the GPU in the PS4 will support double-precision, but it's not guaranteed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series
And it'll be a lot faster in single-precision anyway, as usual. ...
Click to expand...
I expect a non-compliant IEEE-754 32bit floating-point format as the native
format to operate the GPU at full speed. Anyhow, I guess this will be all
clear in a few weeks from now.
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
Cerny confirmed in the interview with Nikkei [its in English] that PS4 will use 16 512MB GDDR5 chips.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20130401/274313/?P=1

As for the "supercharged" parts, or the parts that SCE extended, he said, "There are many, but four of them are representative." They are (1) a structure that realizes high-speed data transmission between the CPU and GPU, (2) a structure that reduces the number of times that data is written back from the cache memory in the GPU, (3) a structure that enables to set priorities in multiple layers in regard to arithmetic and graphics processing and (4) a function to make the CPU take over the preprocessing to be conducted by the GPU.


-----

In another article, Sony expressed wish to eventually make a switch from 16 to 8 GDDR5 chips. They already managed to do similar thing with XDR on PS3. Who knows when will manufacturers start creating 1GB GDDR5 chips, current 512MB ones presumable entered mass production in Q1 of this year...
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1724538&postcount=1220

2.jpg
Click to expand...
 
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