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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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I

Iksenpets

Banned
Philippo said:
Oh those cast pics are adorable, does anyone knows where i can find more of them?
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You can try just searching the tag got-cast on tumblr. I just found this gem doing that.

tumblr_mq8psmRvUj1qcqa3io1_r1_500.png
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Goddamn Natalie Dormer.

Goddamn Pedro Pascal.

Goddamn.
 
R

RoninChaos

Member
VindicatorZ said:
I expected a response like this. I'm just saying, she seemed to be worried about getting caught, not anything else. That's what everyone else around me seemed to think too.

Maybe I'll have to rewatch the scene, but it seemed like she stopped fighting it after awhile.
Click to expand...

Lots of people still think the world is flat too. Doesn't mean they're right.
 
K

KtSlime

Member
RoninChaos said:
Lots of people still think the world is flat too. Doesn't mean they're right.
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There is only one correct understanding, and that is the one that the director/author intended. We can debate the merits of if he accurately conveyed the message he wanted to the audience, but we can't debate if it is rape or not, it's not rape because the director/author said it's not.

We can discuss whether midichlorians are a stupid addition to the StarWars universe, but we can't debate as to if they give Luke his Jedi powers, because that is defined for us by the author, who has authority on the topic.
 
S

SpaceShark

Member
ivedoneyourmom said:
There is only one correct understanding, and that is the one that the director/author intended. We can debate the merits of if he accurately conveyed the message he wanted to the audience, but we can't debate if it is rape or not, it's not rape because the director/author said it's not.

We can discuss whether midichlorians are a stupid addition to the StarWars universe, but we can't debate as to if they give Luke his Jedi powers, because that is defined for us by the author, who has authority on the topic.
Click to expand...
You're referring to authorial intent, which is certainly not the only correct interpretation. It's relevant, yes, but that doesn't make every other interpretation wrong.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Dr.Acula said:
LOL, he's such a doucher then, there's no way anyone watched that scene and thought it turned consensual toward the end.
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I thought it seemed pretty rapey too, but I asked a woman (with prior experience) what she thought and she said she saw it as Cersei resisting at first but then it turned consensual, that she was pulling his clothes off or something and kissing him back and so on. So in other words, pretty much exactly as the director intended.

So I dunno, I guess everyone has their own interpretation.
 
B

BentBricks

Member
Not sure how the rules work. It's not a spoiler after the show aired right? I'm going to discuss parts of Eps 1-3.

Phew, just found this thread and skimmed 5000+ posts in two days. All caught up.
I wanted to find a place where I could discuss theories with people who hasn’t read the books.

Here are my thoughts on who killed Joffrey. I read most of the guesses in this thread.

These are most of them:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108090444&postcount=2486
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108092163&postcount=2497
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108102285&postcount=2585
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108140799&postcount=2843
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108141726&postcount=2851
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108149733&postcount=2881
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108175416&postcount=3002
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108190815&postcount=3089
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108223575&postcount=3174
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108237324&postcount=3236
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108322371&postcount=3504
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108360201&postcount=3632
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108381858&postcount=3655
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108439791&postcount=3711
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108519264&postcount=3786
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108909390&postcount=4450
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108918852&postcount=4549
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108872211&postcount=4203

------------------------------------

I break it down to two things for each suspect: Motive and Opportunity

Motive - Almost everyone has a motive to kill the sadistic king. That makes it very hard to narrow the suspects.
Opportunity - I think this is where we can really trim down the suspects.

For my guess, I am omitting magic. Truly lame if that’s how it went down. Sure Melisandre and the leech thing may have something to do with it, but it will ultimately be by the hands of real people. Much like the Red Wedding. No magic.

I believe all the clues are shown. Some may not be shown directly, but there would be something to suggest the occurrence (i.e. discussion of obtaining poison). It would be very lame for the show not to give enough clues.

Method of poisoning
I will assume the poison was fast acting. Not necessarily instantaneous, but much less than a minute or two. If it was a slow poison, then he could have been poisoned way before the wedding. LAME.

- Necklace :
I admit, I thought about the necklace too. I dismissed it, but after seeing the necklace theories in this thread I went back and rewatched some scenes in Eps 1, 2, and 3. There are 7 crystals when Ser Dantos gave Sansa the necklace and there are only 6 at the wedding. Olenna playing with the necklace wasn’t to take the crystal. It was to bring attention to it as a clue. That is most likely the source of the poison.

- Physical contact : I watched the wedding scene 3 times fully and repeated a few specific scenes a few time. I did not see anyone touch him in a way to transfer poison (i.e. needle).

- Cup : Cup was laced with poison shortly before Joffrey drank it at pie time. It couldn’t be earlier because he was drinking from it a lot.

- Wine : Can’t be the win as others were drinking it.

- Pie : As the Hound would say, "F*ck the pie!"
Doubt it’s the pie since others would eat it. Doubt it's the piece given to Joffrey and Margaery. Margaery could have taken a bite first and Joffrey may still live. Can’t accidentally poison someone else otherwise, Joffrey will be on full alert and future attempts would be near impossible.

- Pie + Wine : Farfetched idea I had was it was a combo of pie and wine. This is way too convoluted and has similar issues of not having complete control of who it would kill.

CONCLUSION: It was the cup.


There could be 2 or more killers involved. One that actually poisons Joffrey and one or more that obtained the poison and planned how. I will focus on who did it the poisoning first, then discuss the other parts.

--------------------

Tywin
Motive : Remove a difficult to control king knowing Tommen is next in line.
Tywin is capable of this, but I doubt this is how he would do it.
There are so many reasons Tywin isn’t the person. There are a million ways Tywin could have the king killed. Such a public event is such high risk. Tywin did not fear Joffrey and even said being king doesn’t mean having the most power.
Opportunity : He is sitting at the table where Tyrion gets the wine to fill the goblet.

Tyrion
Motive : A bunch. Joffrey tried to kill Tyrion and constantly humiliates him.
Tyrion is not stupid. There are a lot of reasons he wouldn’t do it at the wedding with him being a prime suspect.
Opportunity : He touch the goblet multiple times.

Cersei
Motive : NONE. She loves her kids. Yes even Joffrey.
Opportunity : Yes, but no motive.

Tommen
Motive : To be king.
Opportunity : Yes.
He didn’t do it. Do I need to give reasons?

Olenna
Motive : Spare her granddaughter from marrying Joffrey because he’s a monster.
This is a weak motive. Olenna is all about being a strong woman. It undermines the Tyrell’s goal of making Margaery the Queen. I don’t see any strong or clear movite.
Opportunity : Not much. Unless she did a free throw from her table, she was not close enough to the cup. She may have planned it, but I don’t see motive for her killing Joffrey.

Mace
Motive : He’s spineless.
Opportunity : Not much. Far from cup. Did I mention he’s spineless.

Loras
Motive : None.
Opportunity : None.

Margaery
Motive : None. She wanted to be Queen.
Opportunity : She handled the cup.

Ser Dontos
Motive : King tried to kill him. He could have been paid by Littlefinger or someone else. We now know Littlefinger had a deal with Ser Donto to bring Sansa to him at the very least.
Opportunity : None. I don’t see him anywhere near the cup.

Littlefinger
Motive : Littlefinger was keen on marrying Sansa. He can’t with Sansa married to Tyrion. Also, he can’t be seen with Sansa unless the Lannisters were dead or not in power. Littlefinger has his eye on the throne too.
Opportunity : None. Possible master planner.
One does not simply sail into Blackwater. Littlefinger knew Ser Donto was to bring Sansa to him at that time. Littlefinger can’t be known to have taken Sansa. Also, how does Littlefinger know Joffrey was dead when he meets Sansa? Perhaps Littlefinger supplied the poison to Sansa via the necklace.

Varys
Motive : For the good of the realm.
Opportunity : None. He could still be one of the conspirators or even master planner.

Oberyn
Motive : Hates Lannisters.
Despite him hating Lannisters, it would be stupid of him to kill Joffrey at the wedding like that. Oberyn doesn’t strike me as stupid.
Opportunity : None.

Sansa
Motive : I’ll need several posts to list them.
Opportunity : She handled the cup prior to Joffrey’s death.
I need to rewatch the episode 1. Sansa went somewhere to pray where nobody would talk to her. Could she have been meeting with someone there?

Shae
Motive : Sees how Joffrey treats her lion. Revenge on Cersei for keeping her from Tyrion, also possibly having Shae killed.
Opportunity : None. She’s supposed to be gone. No clues that she didn’t go on ship.


CONCLUSION: Sansa poisoned Joffrey. She had to have other people help her though.
It would be such poetic justice for the death of her brother, Rob Stark. Killing Joffrey at his wedding just like Rob was killed at a wedding.


We all know Sansa has the strongest and most motives.

- But Sansa’s so obvious.
What better place to hide something than in plain sight? She’s such an obvious suspect; some wouldn’t think she did it.

- But Sansa’s too sweet and innocent.
Let’s not forget the scene where she tried to kill Joffrey. When Joffrey showed Sansa her father’s head, she was planning on pushing Joffrey off the plank. The Hound stopped her. We don’t know if she would have gone through it. Not only did she think it, she did start to move towards him.

Perhaps Little Dove has learned a few things from Cersei . Little Dove has learned to fly! Sansa has been surrounded by all these liars, cheats, and killers. Perhaps it finally started rubbing off on Sansa.
Sansa may be more ladylike and quiet, but she’s a human. Like Arya, she’s suffered a lot. Sansa has to lash out eventually or kill herself. The poisoning of Joffrey would be Sansa’s shift to the dark side. Unlike Arya being physical, Sansa would be more conniving like Cersei.

- But Sansa denied poisoning Joffrey to Littlefinger.
What did Littlefinger tell Sansa about the capital? “They’re all liars here.” Little Dove has learned to lie. Cersei would be proud.

- But how could Sansa plan on the events that let her lace the cup?
She couldn’t. She could have planned the poisoning and waited for an opportune moment. Joffrey’s antics gave her that moment. It was just a fortuitous opportunity.
 
D

Dirtyshubb

Member
Dr.Acula said:
LOL, he's such a doucher then, there's no way anyone watched that scene and thought it turned consensual toward the end.
Click to expand...

Me and my wife did, and so did many in this very thread.
Was it as clear as it could/should have been? Probably not but since so many say they understood the scene for what the directors intentions were i think your comment is a bit dramatic.
 
V

Vagabundo

Member
I thought I saw Sansa palm something into the goblet at the time, but after the little finger explained about the necklace I can't see how she is involved.

It has to be Olenna and Little finger in kahoots.
 
S

SolidusDave

Member
BentBricks said:
Margaery
Motive : None. She wanted to be Queen.
Opportunity : She handled the cup.
Click to expand...

Btw, I didn't really get that. Was he poisoned before the actual wedding started? So she's not queen because they were never actually married?

Considering he started to choke the second after drinking from the cup (and he already drank also after he got the cup back from Tyrion), makes her still very suspicious. She's the only one in reach and even handled the cup.
Obviously Littlefinger is behind it, but I still think Margaery might even trick her own grandmother into thinking she didn't do it?
Using such a fast poison can get you into trouble though, so maybe it's just a coincidence (but if it's whine+pie, then Margaery was very eager to feed him the cake... :p ).


I just remembered that Littlefinger and Margaery know each other from when her first to-be husband died. It's the scene where she reveals to him that she wants to be queen. Maybe she knew Joffrey as king would never work out well for her, so she conspired with Littlefinger for some sort of masterplan? Both have no real motive, so it could just be something we don't know yet.
 
N

neorej

ERMYGERD!
AuthenticM said:
She's not queen because Joffrey didn't put a child inside her before dying.
Click to expand...

Yup. You can only be queen without a king if the king is your son and too young to rule himself, I believe it's called a queen regent. Cersei was one before Joffrey was officially crowned king.
 
S

SolidusDave

Member
AuthenticM said:
She's not queen because Joffrey didn't put a child inside her before dying.
Click to expand...

Oooh, so that's how it works. Ok thanks.

Did we ever see him having sex/sexual interests? It seems each time he was more into torturing them instead. Maybe Margaery knew he would not give her a child / is infertile due to incest etc.? Anyway, I just realized I have no ground to speculate on her motive, just that she had the best opportunity :p


neorej said:
Yup. You can only be queen without a king if the king is your son and too young to rule himself, I believe it's called a queen regent. Cersei was one before Joffrey was officially crowned king.
Click to expand...
and if she only had a daughter?
 
D

Deaf Spacker

Memb
Was it explained where Littlefinger had been?

I'm starting to suspect that he was involved in the Purple Wedding and that Sansa's necklace (or part of it) was used to kill Joffrey like others have also said.
 
N

neorej

ERMYGERD!
SolidusDave said:
Oooh, so that's how it works. Ok thanks.

Did we ever see him having sex/sexual interests? It seems each time he was more into torturing them instead. Maybe Margaery knew he would not give her a child / is infertile due to incest etc.? Anyway, I just realized I have no ground to speculate on her motive, just that she had the best opportunity :p



and if she only had a daughter?
Click to expand...

then your fucked anyway. She'd have to be wed to a suitable king or prince and he'd become ruler if he's of age, else the future king's mum will take his place until such a time has come.
 
TheContact

TheContact

Member
Deaf Spacker said:
Was it explained where Littlefinger had been?

I'm starting to suspect that he was involved in the Purple Wedding and that Sansa's necklace (or part of it) was used to kill Joffrey like others have also said.
Click to expand...

Well when little finger admitted he was the one who orchestrated ser dontos to give sansa the necklace and also get her out of there, I assume he played a major part in killing Joffrey...

U did watch last week's episode did u not?
 
D

Deaf Spacker

Memb
carfo said:
Well when little finger admitted he was the one who orchestrated ser dontos to give sansa the necklace and also get her out of there, I assume he played a major part in killing Joffrey...

U did watch last week's episode did u not?
Click to expand...

Yeah, but before the last episode many people (myself included) completely forgot about him and whether he could be involved.
 
S

Stevie Gerrard

Member
SolidusDave said:
I just remembered that Littlefinger and Margaery know each other from when her first to-be husband died. It's the scene where she reveals to him that she wants to be queen. Maybe she knew Joffrey as king would never work out well for her, so she conspired with Littlefinger for some sort of masterplan? Both have no real motive, so it could just be something we don't know yet.
Click to expand...

I would say littlefinger's motive is chaos (it's a ladder), and for now he's achieved that, and snatched Sansa too. Sansa doesn't have a reason to go with the fool to the boat unless this incident happened, so Littlefinger gains by throwing the King's Landing establishment into turmoil again, and gaining a potential key to the north.

As for Margery, she might be playing a longer game. Everything we've seen from the Tyrells shows that they are content to spread their influence gradually and subtly. If she didn't kill Joffrey now, where is the opportunity to do so without looking like an obvious suspect? She's already established a strong position as a champion of the common people and she may be able to lever that into making her the sensible choice as wife for the non-psychotic Tommen.

It depends on how we interpret the scene between her and her grandmother. Which one we think is being sincere, all that scene shows for sure is that they weren't co-conspirators.
 
C

Curufinwe

Member
Watching that scene again it really stands out how Cersei's negative reaction to touching Jaime's fake hand is what sets him off. She said thing's changed because he took too long to return, but I think if he still had both his hands she would have jumped right back in bed with her brother.
 
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