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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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This was probably my favorite episode of the season, so far.. so intense.
I have some problem understanding the logic behind their justice system in King's Landing/7 Kingdoms, though:
You're judged and you can either plead guilty or innocent.
In case you plead guilty and ask for mercy, one of the outcomes is to be sent in the Night's Watch for life.
Another outcome, whether you plead guilty or not, is that you have your head cut off... in many cases this seems the most likely outcome, 'cause life is cheap in Westeros.
HOWEVER, you can choose to overrule all of this, with a "trial by combat", where you and the opposite party both choose a champion (or fight yourself) to determine whether you can walk free or die by the sword.
So.. why wouldn't anyone choose this? Why wouldn't Ned Stark choose this? However weak and pathetic in combat you may be, you still have better chances than being executed.
Also it seemed to imply that Tyrion was going to fight himself (which would explain all the gasping) but shouldn't he be able to choose a champion to fight for him? In which case (and i'm sure he could find *someone* to fight for him) that would remove a lot of the weight from his decision.
I have some problem understanding the logic behind their justice system in King's Landing/7 Kingdoms, though:
You're judged and you can either plead guilty or innocent.
In case you plead guilty and ask for mercy, one of the outcomes is to be sent in the Night's Watch for life.
Another outcome, whether you plead guilty or not, is that you have your head cut off... in many cases this seems the most likely outcome, 'cause life is cheap in Westeros.
HOWEVER, you can choose to overrule all of this, with a "trial by combat", where you and the opposite party both choose a champion (or fight yourself) to determine whether you can walk free or die by the sword.
So.. why wouldn't anyone choose this? Why wouldn't Ned Stark choose this? However weak and pathetic in combat you may be, you still have better chances than being executed.
Also it seemed to imply that Tyrion was going to fight himself (which would explain all the gasping) but shouldn't he be able to choose a champion to fight for him? In which case (and i'm sure he could find *someone* to fight for him) that would remove a lot of the weight from his decision.
Because not everyone is a trained fighter, and the person chosen to fight against you most likely would be. It would only even be an option for master at arms trained highborns more then likely. And I don't think Ned Stark had the same type of 'trial' did he? I think in that case it was different. He just flat out got ordered to death by the living king.
But wouldn't those still be better odds than being executed? I mean you still got a chance of a master swordsman doing a mistake or even fucking tripping and hitting his head!
Odds? Maybe a small little bit, sure. But I'd put money on the death to the Knight being more painful and drawn out than a swift beheading, lol.
Suffer and die slow for a 0.4% chance at life or hope you win the trial and/or lose trial and get your noggin lopped off.
I think ned just trusted the system too much.
BrokenIcarus
Member
Trial by combat lets the gods decide if the person is hilly guilty or not.
Stevie Gerrard
Member
I agree, it's a dumb law and really an obvious option for anyone backed into a corner in this sort of trial. It makes all the trial stuff rather irrelevant, if anyone can see they're going to face execution they can at least take the chance of having someone fight for them against the crown's champion. Any fighter would have a puncher's chance in a 1v1 contest, and that's much better than the alternative.
As such it feels like a weak plot device to me, particularly since it's already been used once to get the same character out of a similar situation.
And within the story, you'd think Tywin would have considered the possiblity if not the likelihood of Tyrion doing this when faced by this kangaroo court. Maybe he has, and this is just another layer to his plan.
Overall mixed feelings about this episode. Some of the dialogue and acting was brilliant, loved Davos and Stannis, the small council scene, Varys, Oberyn, Pycelle, and the best Khaleesi scene in a long time. On the other hand, plot-wise it felt quite lame at points: the trial by combat "twist", the Iron Bank folding weakly to Davos' argument in order to get Stannis' story back on its feet again, Yara freaking out and running away after coming all that way.
Jay, finally caught up with the series after starting to binge watch it about a month ago, so it is safe for me to enter this thread and start discussing!
So, is anyone also kinda disappointed that Tyrion will not go to the wall? I would like to see him team up with Jon snow. Jon snow is popular in castle black and a good fighter, but I think he could really have used Tyrion's wits and intelligence to help defeat those two assholes that want Jon death. Tyrion's brains and Jon's fighting/leadership skills would make a great combo.
So, is anyone also kinda disappointed that Tyrion will not go to the wall? I would like to see him team up with Jon snow. Jon snow is popular in castle black and a good fighter, but I think he could really have used Tyrion's wits and intelligence to help defeat those two assholes that want Jon death. Tyrion's brains and Jon's fighting/leadership skills would make a great combo.
ebullientprism
Member
It just feels like the whole thing is building up towards Jaime's death. His whole redemption arc (the "rape" aside), making that deal to try and save Tyrion and the loss of his hand and his fighting ability seems to be heading in one direction.
I can see him volunteering to fight for Tyrion and getting good and dead.
I can see him volunteering to fight for Tyrion and getting good and dead.
The honest answer is that you have to suspend your disbelief. I'm sure someone can think of a dozen different crafty ways to explain this away, maybe Ned didn't even know about this ancient custom (flat chance), but the real answer is because the plot needed Ned to die. Ned was a seasoned warrior capable of fighting Jamie Lannister in the show and wields a Valyrian greatsword, he would dominate in single combat.
Second, I'm sure that most trials are a fair deal, Tyrion's high profile trial is rare where the trial is more of a show than a quest for the truth. I'm sure your average citizen's trial regarding things as minor land disputes and theft are conducted fairly and even if you knew you would be found guilty it would be better to take the punishment for say theft than risk your life in single combat.
SolidusDave
Member
Trial by Combat is really broken if you think too much about it.
Like, someone like the Mountain can literally commit any crime and just shout "TRIAL BY COMBAT" 5 minutes after the judges started talking.
(maybe that's why they leave him around raping/torturing/pillaging? Waste of everyone's time to bring him to court
)
Related question: Is it realistic that all the highborns are much better fighters than the common soldiers? Sure they will get better and personal training, but I would expect soldiers to train every day while highborns probably would not, no?
I mean... fighting is a soldier's job...what else do they do the whole day besides standing guard.
Like, someone like the Mountain can literally commit any crime and just shout "TRIAL BY COMBAT" 5 minutes after the judges started talking.
(maybe that's why they leave him around raping/torturing/pillaging? Waste of everyone's time to bring him to court
)Related question: Is it realistic that all the highborns are much better fighters than the common soldiers? Sure they will get better and personal training, but I would expect soldiers to train every day while highborns probably would not, no?
I mean... fighting is a soldier's job...what else do they do the whole day besides standing guard.
ebullientprism
Member
There werent really many full time soldiers in that kind of a time period though, right? Its mostly a bunch of knights that would lead armed peasants.
Trial by Combat is really broken if you think too much about it.
Like, someone like the Mountain can literally commit any crime and just shout "TRIAL BY COMBAT" 5 minutes after the judges started talking.
(maybe that's why they leave him around raping/torturing/pillaging? Waste of everyone's time to bring him to court
Related question: Is it realistic that all the highborns are much better fighters than the common soldiers? Sure they will get better and personal training, but I would expect soldiers to train every day while highborns probably would not, no?
I mean... fighting is a soldier's job...what else do they do the whole day besides standing guard.
Yeah but they didn't have standing professional armies in medieval times, that's why mercenary professional armies were so coveted. The majority of "soldiers" had day jobs (farmers and what not) when their Lord when to war they would suit up and prepare for combat but it's not like they would train everyday beforehand. Only highborns and their small professional guard they kept with them would have real consistent training.
SolidusDave
Member
Me_Marcadet
Member
Ned got seriously injuried by Jaime and spent a lot of time in a dark cell with barely something to eat and drink, all his household knights were killed and the Lannisters have taken his daughters. Trial by combat was not an option, Ned would have died as a crazy man with no sense of dignitiy. It was either the wall or death for him.
Nameless
Member
Trial by Combat is really broken if you think too much about it.
Like, someone like the Mountain can literally commit any crime and just shout "TRIAL BY COMBAT" 5 minutes after the judges started talking.
(maybe that's why they leave him around raping/torturing/pillaging? Waste of everyone's time to bring him to court
A trial isn't an automatic part of the legal process in Westeros, though. When word got out that The Mountain was slaughtering people throughout the Riverlands, Ned stripped up him of everything on the spot and sent Beric to kill him. There was no trial as there was question concerning Ser Gregor's guilt.
Same with The Hound. Tywin put a price on his head. That he committed treason really isn't up for debate.
Nameless
Member
No he didn't. If I remember correctly, a stupid shitface knight stabbed him in the back (or rather heel).
lastplayed
Member
The last certain trial by battle in England occurred in 1446: a servant accused his master of treason, and the master drank too much wine before the battle and was slain by the servant.
Heh, sounds like something straight outta GoT.
Tatersalad
Member
SolidusDave
Member
True, but I think in the case of The Mountain it would have been indeed a trial because no one has witnessed the crimes. If the crown wants him dead, it wouldn't matter I guess. The Hound obviously left his post, so there it's clear.
I'm pretty sure Ned send Beric to apprehend The Mountain, not as a kill-commando.
Or maybe there are different types of trials? Like, just one that basically reads you your sentence and you have no chance to defend yourself because it's already clear?
Shin Kojima
Banned
I hope Cersei will choose The Mountain and Tyrion will choose Shae.
Me_Marcadet
Member
You know that's how normal people are with TV shows right?
Sometimes it's surreal to come in hear and talk about some bit part actor who had three minutes of screen time, and everyone's calling them by the characters full name, knows their entire history and then can recant the one sentence story he told about his mother's pet pony in season 1.
His "the dwarf guy" is refreshing,
Can someone explain to me how Cersei was allowed to tear Robert's decree allowing Ned to be the king until Joffrey (or rightful heir) comes of age? Isn't that treason?
You bastard.
Matt_
World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
I can't quite remember but probably because Ned himself committed treason by saying Joffrey was a bastard and not worthy to rule
Thats and Cersei does what she fucking likes
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
No way in hell does Jaime fight against the champion Tyrion picks, no matter what pressure comes from his sister/love and father.
Bronn assured Tyrion that Shae boarded the ship to Pentos. Either he lied or she got off the ship afterwards.
My theory is that Tyrion will try to name Bronn as his champion again...but Bronn will refuse, and it will be revealed that he is on Cersei's payroll now. She names him as her champion as another 'fuck you' to Tyrion. Tyrion asks the room at large if anyone will fight for him...and Jamie accepts.
It makes way too much sense, especially considering Bronn has been teaching Jamie how to fight again, and they had that moment where Bronn told Jamie he'll never win if he doesn't fight dirty. Jamie will fight dirty and win.
I don't want Bronn to die.
My theory is that Tyrion will try to name Bronn as his champion again...but Bronn will refuse, and it will be revealed that he is on Cersei's payroll now. She names him as her champion as another 'fuck you' to Tyrion. Tyrion asks the room at large if anyone will fight for him...and Jamie accepts.
It makes way too much sense, especially considering Bronn has been teaching Jamie how to fight again, and they had that moment where Bronn told Jamie he'll never win if he doesn't fight dirty. Jamie will fight dirty and win.
I don't want Bronn to die.
If I remember right, Ned sentenced the Mountain to death after the villager guy came to him when he was hand of the king.
Eric the Red
Member
A decree only has weight if there's someone to enforce it, basically. In a power vacuum, people gravitate towards who looks likely to be the strongest and that's why Ned wasn't playing the "game" properly. Robert wasn't alive to insist, Ned was new to King's Landing and his only ally was Peter Baelish - which of course means he was alone. No one wants to follow that. They want to follow who they're already used to taking orders from, Cersei and her family.
It's sort of the same reasoning Davos uses with the Iron Bank in this latest episode. By all accounts Tommen is King but the real power, Tywin, is gonna be dead soon. Then who are you left with? A kid? You're gonna get paid back from this kingdom managed by a kid? Make a long term investment in Stanis.
Yes yes I agree, I just wanted to point out that he was defeated unfairly (not really by Jaime).
Freeing slaves? She has no problem running with warriors who do worse than that. She's on an eat or be eaten conquest.
This would make for some great drama, but I don't think Tywin would nominate Jamie knowing his disadvantage in that situation. Losing both Jamie and the trial probably isn't in his best interest unless he's pulling some kind of crazy long con.
This would make more sense.
P.S., don't spoiler pure speculation. Thanks.
Nameless
Member
Remember there was an old farmer who travelled to King's Landing to report the atrocities taking place in the Riverlands. Once he laid out the facts (humongous dude in black armor killing babies, decapitating horses, fucking people up, and leaving bushels of dead fish as a sign) it was clear the farmer was referring to The Mountain, who was attacking the Riverlands at Tywin's behest. Ned sentenced Ser Gregor to death and summoned Tywin to appear before the crown to answer for his knight's crimes.
I think whether or not there's a trial depends on to what extent the accused's guilt can be disputed. So, if Tyrion had stabbed Joffrey in the jugular at the wedding there wouldn't have been a trial at all. He'd be locked up until sentencing where his only available play would be to plead for mercy.
Tywin's age (67) feels like a really weak reason for the Iron Bank to justify funding Stannis. I mean sure, the life expectancy in GoT-land is probably a lot lower than it is in today's world, but the fact is that there are plenty of men in the series who are much older than Tywin and still lead active lives. There's no reason to think Tywin couldn't rule for another 10 years without outside intervention.
No there was a witness. Remember he came to see Ned when he was acting king or whatever, and told him about The Mountain going through their village: http://youtu.be/uKB0ogglzGQ
He then ordered Beric to carry out the king's justice.
I have always said and noticed that as long as he isn't acting out with Cerci on mind, he seems like a moral man. As soon as its about him getting with or to Cerci all morals are thrown out the window. All logic as well.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Someone mentioned something interesting in regards to the last episode. Funny that Varys isn't a Lord and as Oberyn mentioned, yet everyone calls him that. While Danny has written a mini-book of titles that her maid lets everyone know how powerful she is. Lack of experience and ego playing a role, I think she would get killed if she lived in Westeros. It's good for her that she's staying here.
Reminds me of Tywin's "a King who states he is a King is no real King" speech from last season.
Reminds me of Tywin's "a King who states he is a King is no real King" speech from last season.
So I finally watched this episode last night. Was super busy Sun night and all Monday.
Some thoughts so I apologize if some of these points are just repeats of things discussed:
1. Am I the only one who found the whole extract Theon scene pointless? I mean I get that it sets up his total transformation and loyalty to his tormentor BUT from his sister's point of view WTF was that? Epic speech, row row row your boat to get him back, fight a castle, kill people but oh no some dogs! Lets run! Forget Theon!
Maybe I was just pissed and sad that he is still stuck in that situation but it was just pointless and time consuming. We could have just had a scene of him showing his loyalty and cut out the whole sister rescuing angle. Truth be told I was looking forward to it since last season. Completely let down.
2. Finally Westeros seems to address what's happening with Danny, her growing army, and her dragons. Seems like we will finally get some interaction. Though I wouldn't be mad if she just decided you know what fuck Westeros. The rest of the world is so grand and seems more exotic. Why not just rule those lands?
3. Continuing on the previous point when we see Braavos I keep thinking why in the world these families keep fighting over and for Westeros. All the cities we have seen in the free world seem to have amazing architecture, standard of living, sometimes better and bigger, and seem just as developed/evolved. Yet everyone and their mother is obsessed over Westeros.
4. Everything with the trial was fantastic. Top notch acting from everyone, great writing, and had me on the edge of my seat worried, angry, and then cheering at the end when Tyrion said fuck you all.
5. BUT question...they kept showing Margery and she obviously seemed uncomfortable knowing Tyrion is innocent and this whole mess is her grandmothers doing. I wonder if this is developed on further down the road and she maybe does something to help Tyrion out. She seems disturbed by how all the Lannisters save for Jaime are killing off one of their own.
6. I guess this confirms Baelish and Granny's plan all along to pin sole blame on Tyrior and Sansa. Fucked up. Didn't expect that from her grandmother especially to imply Sansa was behind it. I guess she got reassurance from Baelish that even if they think she is the one behind it, he will keep her safe with him in the Vale.
I hate how easily everyone lined up against Tyrion. The poison and the necklace was found and how all his friends turned on him but that was expected. As soon as the Fool was killed and the necklace thrown on him, I knew it was to help frame Tyrion.
7. Missed Jon Snow and his story in this episode. Again cut the sister rescue angle and give me more Snow and Bran!
Some thoughts so I apologize if some of these points are just repeats of things discussed:
1. Am I the only one who found the whole extract Theon scene pointless? I mean I get that it sets up his total transformation and loyalty to his tormentor BUT from his sister's point of view WTF was that? Epic speech, row row row your boat to get him back, fight a castle, kill people but oh no some dogs! Lets run! Forget Theon!
Maybe I was just pissed and sad that he is still stuck in that situation but it was just pointless and time consuming. We could have just had a scene of him showing his loyalty and cut out the whole sister rescuing angle. Truth be told I was looking forward to it since last season. Completely let down.
2. Finally Westeros seems to address what's happening with Danny, her growing army, and her dragons. Seems like we will finally get some interaction. Though I wouldn't be mad if she just decided you know what fuck Westeros. The rest of the world is so grand and seems more exotic. Why not just rule those lands?
3. Continuing on the previous point when we see Braavos I keep thinking why in the world these families keep fighting over and for Westeros. All the cities we have seen in the free world seem to have amazing architecture, standard of living, sometimes better and bigger, and seem just as developed/evolved. Yet everyone and their mother is obsessed over Westeros.
4. Everything with the trial was fantastic. Top notch acting from everyone, great writing, and had me on the edge of my seat worried, angry, and then cheering at the end when Tyrion said fuck you all.
5. BUT question...they kept showing Margery and she obviously seemed uncomfortable knowing Tyrion is innocent and this whole mess is her grandmothers doing. I wonder if this is developed on further down the road and she maybe does something to help Tyrion out. She seems disturbed by how all the Lannisters save for Jaime are killing off one of their own.
6. I guess this confirms Baelish and Granny's plan all along to pin sole blame on Tyrior and Sansa. Fucked up. Didn't expect that from her grandmother especially to imply Sansa was behind it. I guess she got reassurance from Baelish that even if they think she is the one behind it, he will keep her safe with him in the Vale.
I hate how easily everyone lined up against Tyrion. The poison and the necklace was found and how all his friends turned on him but that was expected. As soon as the Fool was killed and the necklace thrown on him, I knew it was to help frame Tyrion.
7. Missed Jon Snow and his story in this episode. Again cut the sister rescue angle and give me more Snow and Bran!
Nameless
Member
I know! I can't complain too much since this is shaping up to be the best season yet, but I was really looking forward to seeing more of these guys. With four episodes left, I can't imagine why they'd randomly pop up now , especially given the bigger characters who've been pushed to the back burner.
Last time we saw them they were leaving to track down a party of Lannisters in the area. Maybe there's an outside shot they cross paths with Arya & the Hound again, maybe even Brienne & Pod.
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