I was also underwhelmed after the long wait for Yara to finally arrive at Castle Bolton, but I think the point was to establish that the Greyjoy family was finally ready to cut all ties to him for good after seeing the soulless husk that he had become. The rescue party was his last (foreseeable) hope, and now they're out of the equation. Poor Reek, abandoned and alone. ;_;
Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
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I was also underwhelmed after the long wait for Yara to finally arrive at Castle Bolton, but I think the point was to establish that the Greyjoy family was finally ready to cut all ties to him for good after seeing the soulless husk that he had become. The rescue party was his last (foreseeable) hope, and now they're out of the equation. Poor Reek, abandoned and alone. ;_;
Nameless
Member
Maybe it's because I don't want Reek to be rescued or Ramsay to die, but I didn't have a problem with what happened. Just because you sail half way around Westeros and deliver an epic speech doesn't mean your plan will to work. Yara was out manned, out matched, and Reek fought with every thing he had not to be taken. So what they if they knocked him out, they still would have ran into Ramsay.
I feel like Game of Thrones should have long squashed the conditioning that makes us assume a character will/should attain their goal just because there was a lot of build up or desire to reach it. Shit don't work line that. Ask Robb Stark.
I feel like Game of Thrones should have long squashed the conditioning that makes us assume a character will/should attain their goal just because there was a lot of build up or desire to reach it. Shit don't work line that. Ask Robb Stark.
dead monkey uk
Member
I agree with your other points, but not this one. I think anyone would run if a pack of dogs were set on them, plus Theon refused to go and had bitten his sister. I think this scene was required to show just how far Theon had gone. Even his sister was not able to help him.
DrFaustPhD
Member
I agree that's what they were trying to convey, but the real problem was the choreography/blocking and cinematography didn't sell the situation. When Ramsay was walking towards the lock with the key, it felt like there was more than enough time and room for Yara or one of her men to swing a sword through his arm, it felt like Yara had enough men to over-power the rest of Ramsays men in that room (also her line about "...and no more of your men have to die" is incongruous with her not making a move as he goes for the dogs). If the scene did a better job of showing why Yara couldn't have at least tried to kill her brothers captor there would be less pushback against the sequence.
Nameless
Member
Yes but I'll still complain about it damnit!
I wanted a rescue
You don't think he's good where he's at? Reek is fiercely loyal, respectful, and has no ego whatsoever. He's an objectively better person than Theon Greyjoy.
Gotta give Ramsay his props as a master psychologist.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Yep, that's the sentiment I have seen here: The concept behind is fine, but the execution on the show was not up to par.
Plus, it's pretty obvious that people really do not know what means to face a pack of dogs thirsts of blood. These are Ramsey's pets, not your average Poodle.
In any case, it's a given that it's not the end of Yara story. Reek is now going to be used as bait (by trying to simulate he is Theon) so they will cross paths soon. Which is fine because more manly berserk Ramsey is always a plus.
No. The "court" and the accuser -Cercei- will decide whom will fight on their behalf (champion) and Tyrion will have to say if he will do it himself, or he has someone that it's willing to cover him.
robotzombie
Member
The crown gets to choose a champion to stand for them, and Tyrion does as well should he find someone that would agree to it. This has already happened once before; Lysa Arryn had one of her knights fight for her and Bronn volunteered for Tyrion.
I personally believe that when Tyrion made the claim this time, he was fully of the mindset that he would just fight himself and not care if he died, just to fuck over his father's plan. But there is a very likely scenario given the way the storyline is going along with some hints from previews:
The theory is that the crown will choose the Mountain as their champion, which is a very obvious choice given that he's probably the strongest opponent they'd have under their employ. This will give Oberyn the opportunity to kill the Mountain without controversy, and so he may choose to stand for Tyrion in order to get his revenge.
All he had to do was declare a trial by combat in front of everyone when he was supposed to confess his crime, again the real answer he didn't is because the plot needed him to die.
Her warriors have done worse than that? Care to explain. Surely you're not talking about her being Khal Drogo's wife and the shit the Dothraki were up to? She was pretty much given as a present to the Khal by her brother, and she did stop the raping of the conquered when she encountered it. That act ended getting Drogo killed. So really, I don't know what you're talking about.
Everyone vying for the throne uses those titles. In the same episode, Sir Davos uses them to introduce Stannis to the Iron Bank. Yet you only seem to have an issue with Dany's use of it. As was mentioned, Stannis has 4000 men to his name, that he can neither feed or equip. He's holed up on some island whining about he's rightful claim, and now has gone to get a loan on his weak ass credit score. Dany has conquered a city, has 8000 Unsullied and 2000 Second Sons to her back. Why is Stannis using the titles ok with you, but not Dany?
Oh yisss!
Nameless
Member
He couldn't have requested a trial by combat because it wasn't a trial. Ned committed treason in front of the royal court and a throne room full of people. He was guilty, and there was no disputing it. All he could do was plead for mercy. Cersei agreed to let him join the nights watch if he recanted his treasonous statements and confessed as part of that plea, but obviously Joffrey had other plans.
I think my mind has distorted it a bit, but where was the scene were Tywin tell Joffrey to go back to his quarters? I want to watch it again as it really showed who was the King in the end.
edit: nvm I found it.
edit: nvm I found it.
If there was nothing to dispute then why did they need to have him confess? Even if the evidence against you is clear there is still usually a trial if you profess your innocence. Afterall, Ned had a reason he declared Joffrey illegitimate thus there is a fact in dispute requiring a trial.
For show. It was pretty much done to cement in the public eye that the honourable Ned Stark was a traitor to the crown. Plus, Ned was concerned for his daughters, and they promised him their safety in exchange for the confession.
And yet, if we won a trial by combat his daughters could have walked away freely. I don't know why everyone is trying to come up with these explanations, can we just accept the fact that the "trial by combat" is a bit of a contrived plot device? All stories have plot holes and contrived plot devices especially ones as vast and complex as GoT, it doesn't make the story any weaker by accepting this fact.
robotzombie
Member
I think you are trying a lot harder to make this scenario a "contrived plot device" than the people giving explanations as to why it isn't.
Nameless
Member
There was no disputing that he publicly defamed the King and attempted to usurp his rule by force. Everyone saw him do it. They had him confess to false reasons because the ex Hand of the king, the honorable Ned Stark questioning the legitimacy of Joffrey's claim wasn't a good thing for the new King.
Lavpa Jasai
Member
I think someone mentioned in this thread about a podcast where one host is someone who has read the books and one is someone who hasn't and both give their opinions of the TV show only with NO spoilers...anyone know what I'm talking about?
Nameless
Member
It's not a plot hole. Again, if Tyrion had murdered Joffrey with a knife in front of everyone at the wedding, he'd have no grounds to ask for a trial by combat to get himself the hook. There would be no trial as there would be no question of his guilt.
Ned Stark didn't get a trial at all. There was no option for him to have a trial by combat.
Political reasons. Ned Stark confessed traitor being punished is far far FAR better for stability than Ned Stark, honourable noble, straight as an arrow, being punished by an asshole boy king nobody likes. Of course asshole boy king went off his rocker and chopped Ned's head off causing the North to revolt but that was hardly the likely outcome.
And I really don't see this as a plot-hole either.
I also don't think you can ask for a trial by combat if the charge against you was openly witnessed by a large number of people. The Hound got a trial by combat because it was his word against Arya's. Tyrion got the some treatment in the Vale, because once again, they had only Catelyn Stark's accusation to go by. Ned doesn't get a trial by combat cause his crimes were witnessed by all. Did Ned Stark not waltz into the throne room with the Gold Cloaks to his back, and declare in front of all that King Joffrey Baratheon was not the rightful king? Yes, yes he did. Open and shut case.
The only reason they hadn't killed him yet, was because of of how that would look to the public. Ned Stark was realm renown as the honourable Eddard Stark of Winterfall. That's where the confession deal comes into play. He confesses, the crown gains their legitimacy, and they get the added benefit of throwing Ned's standing with the common folk down a peg. In return Ned secures the safety of his daughters.
robotzombie
Member
This is really the more important argument than the "whether or not he was allowed to" one anyway. There was no logical reason for him to even request it, so I can't see how it was a plothole. It would be stupid for him to do that. He can't fight for himself, his men were slaughtered, he'd have to reach out to some kind of Northern bannerman who would accept for him, they'd be going up against Jaime/The Hound/The Mountain/etc so there is a great likelihood they'd lose, and his daughters were being held hostage in the first place.
In no part of the scenario Ned was it would it make sense for him to want a Trial by Combat
Me_Marcadet
Member
The plot didn't need him to die, but the characterisation and all the events since the first episode would not lead to any other issue than death or the Wall.
It would be really out of character for Ned to claim a trial by combat, he really had no reason to do so.
All he could do was confess his crimes, save his daughters and live with his brother and son at the Wall.
A trial by combat would have been a joke and I don't think Ned would want to risk his daughters lifes and die with everybody in King's Landing laughing at him when he is killed by a worthless kingsguard like Meryn Trant.
Incredible.
Braag
Member
Nameless
Member
God damn right. Fuckin Iron Born shits
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Err what? This suggestion came from someone else, and I hadn't picked up on it. Obviously, this was something hitting the sweet spot coming from the writer himself. I know you have Danny in your avatar, but can you at least try to have a shred of objectivity when it comes to her?
Everyone has titles, including Stannis who I would assume has done a hell of a lot during his time since he's twice her age, and he had 4 titles. Guess how much Mother of Dragons had.. 8. 8 titles for someone who started accomplishing things roughly a year to a year and a half if we go by season 3 timeline.
"Daenerys Stromborn of the House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, the Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons"
I really hope we don't get to hear her titles by the end of season 5 as an intro, it might take half the episode just to finish it. I expect all to have titles, but this is pretty hilarious that she has so many. Here's the script for the second person introduced in the episode,
"The noble Loraq begs an audience with the Queen."
"The noble Loraq can speak to me hilself" she responds aggravated. I had to smile looking at her reaction.
Apparently she doesn't have a problem that someone else introduce her to others by memorizing several pages from a book of her accomplishments.. but when someone else is introduced to her in a similar manner she doesn't like it. Mother of Hypocrisy sees herself over everyone else a little too quickly. She's turning more and more into a pompous bitch with every season after season 1 (in which she was one of my favorite characters). If I were a better man, I wouldn't doubt it she gets even worse when it comes to this. The good news is that Stannis is also one that is fighting her for the throne of Entitlement, but she's far more interesting than he is. At least he listens to his advisers.
cott damn
A Cast of Kings
I highly recommend listening to their interview with Cogman (co-producer and writer for GoT.) He goes into lots of interesting details on making the show
How do people not realise why she held that guy to such disdain? He represented the Masters, the very group of people she just over thrown. Plus when you factor in her repulsion at what the Masters did, are you confused as to why she would behave like that?
If Stannis had accomplished things of worth, they'd be known. The only thing I know of Stannis based on what the show has told us, is that he was holed up at Dragonstone for most of Robert's rebellion, and got his ass kicked when he tried to storm King's Landing. The only reason he doesn't have more titles following his name is cause there probably aren't any accomplishments of his noteworthy to mention. And you're right, Stannis keeps thinking he's hot shit whilst just sitting there brooding like a housewife. At least some of the other characters are doing things to warrant their bravado.
Ok Dany did not listen to her advisor once, let's not get carried away with this "she doesn't listen to her advisers." Also, Stannis listening to his adviser cost him the Battle of Blackwater Bay. Malisandre wanted to be there at that battle, so she could guarantee a victory for Stannis. Who advised Stannis not to let her come, on the wisdom that their victory might be attributed to the Red Woman? Sir Davos. So it goes both ways. Robb Stark refused to heed advise on many occasions as well, which ultimately cost him his life. In a world where many characters commit similar mistakes, why single out one of them for scorn?
I have no problem with critism for Daenerys, because she has done some infantile things. Refusing to heed Sir Barriston's advice simply because she couldn't get over what the Masters had done, and as a result failing to see the bigger picture, is a valid criticism towards her. But stuff like her titles (some of which she had by virtue of her birth, some by virtue of her marriage to a Dothraki Horse Lord, and a few other by deeds she accomplished), her annoyance at the slave Masters son, etc. Those seem like nitpicking to me.
Arrowgigantic
Member
You should change your avatar to a piece of pizza.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
When has Danny actually listened to them for advice unless it's for some factual statement someone says? Does Stannis listening to his advisers and him getting hurt for it somehow detract Danny being entitled? You're trying to connect random dots that make no sense. So her not listening to anyone in your opinion is the right decision, even though my point is that she doesn't listen to others? What the fuck?!...
It's hard to choose which way she was looking at it. The childish black and white way or her being pompous as usual. Flip a coin and we'll let you pick the side you think best fits her.
We'll just agree to disagree man, and leave it at that. We'll be at this all day lol
Anyway, What is it about these Essos cities that make them so incredibly impressive in comparison to anything in Westeros? Kings in Westeros hand out rewards in little pouches of gold, and these loan sharks over in Braavos have themselves some fine ass coin dispensers. That shot when they were going under the Bravoos version of the Colossus of Rhodes with the rest of the city in the back drop, was gorgeously framed.
Anyway, What is it about these Essos cities that make them so incredibly impressive in comparison to anything in Westeros? Kings in Westeros hand out rewards in little pouches of gold, and these loan sharks over in Braavos have themselves some fine ass coin dispensers. That shot when they were going under the Bravoos version of the Colossus of Rhodes with the rest of the city in the back drop, was gorgeously framed.
chicko1983
Member
I agree with the sentiment about the Free Lands seemingly more prosperous than Westeros.
Bravos looked three or four times bigger than Kings Landing and that is really the only city in Westeros.
Mereen looked grander than Kings Landing.
Can white walkers even cross the ocean? I would be living somewhere in Bravos if I lived in this world.
Bravos looked three or four times bigger than Kings Landing and that is really the only city in Westeros.
Mereen looked grander than Kings Landing.
Can white walkers even cross the ocean? I would be living somewhere in Bravos if I lived in this world.
Remember when they opened up the gates to
It's almost like a Game of Thrones version of the differences between the East during the early Arab/Islamic civilization, and the West that had a Europe that was still reeling from the collapse of the Roman world. Braavos would be akin to say Baghdad during it glory days, and King's Landing would be like Paris or London around the same time.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Bravos looked more like Constantinople IMO.
Wouldn't that still be considered East? So it still fits with this East/West separation. I used Baghdad as one example of a city that was far and above greater than any in Europe at its peak. Constantinople, perhaps Damascus, and some of the cities of Andalusia would also fit. But you're right about Constantinople. Wasn't even thinking about the lack of an ocean port in Baghdad, I was thinking more in terms of splendour. lol
As a whole, the cities of Essos seem so much grander than their counterparts in Westeros. We haven't seen High Garden or any of the Dornish cities. But from those shown, only King's Landing is of note, and that pales in comparison to Braavos, Qarth, and Mereen.
I wonder where the Free Cities draw their exuberant wealth from.
Braag
Member
Or that movie The Physician where they showed the difference of medical knowledge between England and Persia back in 11th century.
I guess it would make sense for the free cities to be more akin to that.
Hell if I was Dany I would just stay across the narrow sea too
Plus there's no white walkers there though slavery is a pretty big minus.The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Haha. I forgot about that scene. And that explains where that little dance from the end of the Bad Lip Reading Game of Thrones video was from.
Lamel
Banned
fredrancour
Member
They're pretty far south. Maybe they get less hammered by winter so they've got more-developed economies.
Hours Left
Member
That's all the usable film they had of him.
Love Stannis. Love him. Wish I could find a longer GIF.
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