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[SoraanTribal]

I have no idea how people accidentally enter the spoiler thread.

Well, I was just quickly glancing at the title of the thread and it says "Game of Thrones Season 4" and clicked on it. Wasn't paying attention to the first part really. I usually double check before entering the thread anyways, but I didn't that time for whatever reason.

 

[Pop On Arrival]

Pedros interview with Vanity Fair describing what Oberyns funeral would be like. probably posted already but whatevs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpewbz7GwCU

DJ Sunspear made me laugh.

 

[Kinyou]

Spoilers relating to the "Inside the Episode #8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3vgeMijCc)" -

Spoiler

At 8:50 it is mentioned that he is "poisoned"- so I presume that means Oberyn was indeed using poison. It only makes sense given his style and "Viper" nickname.

Spoiler

Ah, yeah. That seems to pretty much confirm it. Though he also doesn't really mention if it kills him. Some freakish guy like the mountain might just "sweat it out"

Yeah it seems instead of poetic justice we get poetic injustice. The honorable to a fault Ned Stark lies and admits treason, both dishonoring himself personally and publicly before being beheaded. The stoic Rob forsakes his promises for love and gets to see his wife stabbed in her pregnant belly before being cut down. Catelyn helps start a war with the Lannisters over their attempt to murder her son, in the process letting two lannisters go free and then watches her other son die on the orders of the lannisters before dying herself. Oberyn seeks vengeance on the man who murdered his sister and his confession, and instead gets to experience what she experienced in her last moments at the hands of the same man, while that man proudly gives him the confession he sought.
Meanwhile Joffrey dies a noble and brave king, not knowing that he is dying and not at the hands of the people he had wronged.
Someone earlier in the thread asked why we keep watching, and I think in part of it is that we keep waiting for the catharsis of some poetic justice.

Hah, that sums it up pretty well.

The failed rescue mission for Theon is probably also a prime example of that

 

[GungHo]

Probably because normal people die when a spear gets shoved into their chest area?

Normal people also need a hammer when they're going to do the whole Sledge-O-Matic thing with another human being's head.

 

[Nameless]

Spoilar Morghulis

Valar Spoilarhus, all men must be spoiled.

 

[MMBosstones86]

To those who keep entering the Book reader thread...Subscribe to this one, and only ever enter it though your subscription list. It's that easy.

There is no other way

So what happens if/when the wildling army breaks through the wall? I assume Roose Bolton calls his bannermen, but will Tywin raise the south's armies and march north to help?

What's Stannis gonna do when this is all going down?

I was under the impression that Stannis is marching North as he seems to be the only one that gives a fuck about the message the Crows sent out.

 

[Nameless]

There is no other way



I was under the impression that Stannis is marching North as he seems to be the only one that gives a fuck about the message the Crows sent out.

Also remember when he looked into the flames last season he saw "a great battle in the snow".

What good is the throne if the kingdoms it rules are besieged by 100,000 barbarians and/or White Walkers?

 

[Zeppu]

When you think about the onslaught of wildlings, then winter with Whitewalkers and (maybe) Dany with her dragons it makes all the stuff happening in King's Landing/Vale/Dragonstone seem incredibly petty.

 

[JB1981]

So what happens if/when the wildling army breaks through the wall? I assume Roose Bolton calls his bannermen, but will Tywin raise the south's armies and march north to help?

What's Stannis gonna do when this is all going down?

Stannis is going to bail out the Night's Watch and get mad respect from the North, IMO. The scene was foreshadowed in an earlier season when Davos handed Stannis the letter about what's coming to the North ... Davos bailed himself out of a death sentence with that one.

 

[Lurra]

I...I just feel empty inside! The end of this episode was very well done,and also acted very well.
I hate it but I love it, it's a common feeling I think!

 

[crazygambit]

Tyrion and Jamie bonded over bugs.

I didn't quite get the point of that whole conversation. Any ideas?

 

[Zelias]

I didn't quite get the point of that whole conversation. Any ideas?

I figured it was just Tyrion rambling out of sheer terror that he might die.

 

[Heshinsi]

Let what slide? Oberyn chose to be Tyrion's champion. And was killed because of it. His death was as fair as it could be in GoT universe.

Well they'd be pissed about the prince, but you're right, there's not much they could complain about. However, public confession that Princes Elia Martell was raped and butchered by Tywin Lannister's lackey? That I can see causing a spark. Tywin Lannister has carved himself a reputation of being a man in control of every situation, a man to be feared, and a man with a calculating and iron fisted agenda. No way you can convince Dorne that such a man had no idea and/or lacked the power to stop the Mountain from committing such a crime. Rememeber, Tywin gave the order to sack the city. When a city is sacked, rape and pillage is the natural order of the day. The fact that Tywin gift wrapped the dead bodies of Elia and her kids in Lannister red, and deposited them at Robert's feet, tells me this guy knew what went down.

Spartacus was more violent and had more sex.

No one cared about any of those assholes on that show (Gannicus and Andy aside), but I loved Oberyn man

 

[KarmaCow]

I didn't quite get the point of that whole conversation. Any ideas?

A man about to die trying to figure out why life can be so cruel.

 

[The Lamonster]

Well they'd be pissed about the prince, but you're right, there's not much they could complain about. However, public confession that Princes Elia Martell was raped and butchered by Tywin Lannister's lackey? That I can see causing a spark. Tywin Lannister has carved himself a reputation of being a man in control of every situation, a man to be feared, and a man with a calculating and iron fisted agenda. No way you can convince Dorne that such a man had no idea and/or lacked the power to stop the Mountain from committing such a crime. Rememeber, Tywin gave the order to sack the city. When a city is sacked, rape and pillage is the natural order of the day. The fact that Tywin gift wrapped the dead bodies of Elia and her kids in Lannister red, and deposited them at Robert's feet, tells me this guy knew what went down.

The last few sentences here make me think you're talking about the books.

 

[MMBosstones86]

I didn't quite get the point of that whole conversation. Any ideas?

It was by far the weakest jail-monologue that went down. Was waiting for a point, but it just kind of ended. I assume something deeper meaning about Tyrion being a bug and trying to find a reason why bad shit keeps happening to him?

 

[Macka]

I didn't quite get the point of that whole conversation. Any ideas?

I have a few ideas on the meaning behind it:

1. Sometimes things happen and there is no reason or logic to it.
2. Metaphor for the way Tyrion has been treated during his life. He is one of the beetles, constantly getting beaten down.
3. Very meta metaphor where George R.R Martin is the 'moron' who keeps indiscriminately killing off these characters for seemingly no reason.

 

[Dennis]

Hopefully Dany dies a quick and uneventful death so someone less fucking moronic and emotionally impulsive can sit the throne.

Come closer, my friend.....

"Dracarys"

 

[Joe Prodigy]

So what happens if/when the wildling army breaks through the wall? I assume Roose Bolton calls his bannermen, but will Tywin raise the south's armies and march north to help?

What's Stannis gonna do when this is all going down?

My boy Stannis is going to take the throne the first....errr......next chance he gets.

 

[Blader]

I didn't quite get the point of that whole conversation. Any ideas?

It's a metaphor for how GRRM will kill anyone, at any time, for any reason.

 

[Great Poster]

A man about to die trying to figure out why life can be so cruel.

I actually took this conversation completely differently. Recall that they were discussing the various "-cides" (fratricide, regicide, etc.) and Tyrion says "there's no name for killing your cousin..." which he then pivots to the story of cousin idiot-bug-smasher. He finishes the discussion with a very brief quip "...and then he was killed by the mule that kicked him."

I took his opening of "there's no name for killing your cousin" and the seemingly "and the mule killed him" and his ramblings about the pointless nature of killing all those beetles...and I deduced that Tyrion decided to kill the cousin...weird I know, but that's where I ended up. The way he stresses on about the helpless bugs being pointlessly crushed, and that's all the cousin seemed interested in...it just seemed to me that Tyrion had a hand in correcting something he saw as pointless destruction...maybe its out of character but that's my interpretation...

The pivot from "there's no name to killing your cousin" to a discussion about a cousin, ending with how he was killed by a mule just seemed too contrived

 

[crazygambit]

I have a few ideas on the meaning behind it:

1. Sometimes things happen and there is no reason or logic to it.
2. Metaphor for the way Tyrion has been treated during his life. He is one of the beetles, constantly getting beaten down.
3. Very meta metaphor where George R.R Martin is the 'moron' who keeps indiscriminately killing off these characters for seemingly no reason.

Ha! I like that one.

 

[The Lamonster]

It's a metaphor for how GRRM will kill anyone, at any time, for any reason.

I took it as some people are inherently violent and not always with any rhyme or reason.


btw let's not forget that Jaime killed his own cousin while held captive in Robb's camp.

 

[Siegcram]

I took it as some people are inherently violent and not always with any rhyme or reason.


btw let's not forget that Jaime killed his own cousin while held captive in Robb's camp.

There's no word for cousin-killing, though. Doesn't count.

 

[Snuggles]

Haha, my housemate smoked up and watched the most recent episode with his missus tonight, and really felt that last scene. Been a couple of hours and he's so down about it, came in to tell me he's convinced people will just stop watching the show now. One plot device that drives him mad (not at the device, but the emotional resonance it produces) is the "heroic character has easy victory snatched away at last second due to ego", and it really, really go to him here.

He's so bummed.

It's funny because I've seen a lot of comments like this after last Sunday, just as there were a lot after the Red Wedding, but they're possibly the two most talked about events in the series. This thread exploded after that ending. It generated more discussion than Joffrey's assassination. I understand the frustration to a degree, but I doubt that after all that, anyone is really gonna bail on the show and miss out on what happens next.

 

[Pandaman]

I actually took this conversation completely differently. Recall that they were discussing the various "-cides" (fratricide, regicide, etc.) and Tyrion says "there's no name for killing your cousin..." which he then pivots to the story of cousin idiot-bug-smasher. He finishes the discussion with a very brief quip "...and then he was killed by the mule that kicked him."

I took his opening of "there's no name for killing your cousin" and the seemingly "and the mule killed him" and his ramblings about the pointless nature of killing all those beetles...and I deduced that Tyrion decided to kill the cousin...weird I know, but that's where I ended up. The way he stresses on about the helpless bugs being pointlessly crushed, and that's all the cousin seemed interested in...it just seemed to me that Tyrion had a hand in correcting something he saw as pointless destruction...maybe its out of character but that's my interpretation...

The pivot from "there's no name to killing your cousin" to a discussion about a cousin, ending with how he was killed by a mule just seemed too contrived

I think the "no name for killing your cousin" came up as a reference to Jaime killing his cousin to escape Robb's army. thats probably why it came to Jaime's mind so easily anyway.

 

[dcdobson]

When you think about the onslaught of wildlings, then winter with Whitewalkers and (maybe) Dany with her dragons it makes all the stuff happening in King's Landing/Vale/Dragonstone seem incredibly petty.

I think that's one of the major themes of the show. Entitled and self-important people try to one-up each other while ignoring the various existential threats that surround them.

 

[Heshinsi]

The last few sentences here make me think you're talking about the books.

I haven't read the books, Jamie has mentioned that his father sacked the city and the rest is from the lore videos.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

I think the strongest common theme in what I have seen over three seasons is that shitty people do horrible things, and those that are wronged never get vindication/revenge. The death of Joffery teaches the reader/viewer that its not even a case of George setting up for a big pay-off later. No one wanted to see him die that way. The only protaganist that is getting her way is Daenerys, but I won't be surprised if she is killed off before she ever gets to King's Landing.

The big question of course, is whether Tyrion is going to die. Going by theme I've observed thus far, I'd say yes. For me the viewer I find that unfortunate, since he is such a strong character. I applaud George for being willing to kill off main charactrers, but I'm not always convinced that he is able to replace them successfully with other characters that I should care about. I honestly don't care about the whole Stanis plotline, mainly because I don't find myself rooting for or against. I'm just indifferent to what happens there. Same with the Grey Joy/Bolton plotline. I care about Theon, and Ramsay, but about those kingdoms in general.

 

[Gorechylde]

Yeah it seems instead of poetic justice we get poetic injustice. The honorable to a fault Ned Stark lies and admits treason, both dishonoring himself personally and publicly before being beheaded. The stoic Rob forsakes his promises for love and gets to see his wife stabbed in her pregnant belly before being cut down. Catelyn helps start a war with the Lannisters over their attempt to murder her son, in the process letting two lannisters go free and then watches her other son die on the orders of the lannisters before dying herself. Oberyn seeks vengeance on the man who murdered his sister and his confession, and instead gets to experience what she experienced in her last moments at the hands of the same man, while that man proudly gives him the confession he sought.
Meanwhile Joffrey dies a noble and brave king, not knowing that he is dying and not at the hands of the people he had wronged.
Someone earlier in the thread asked why we keep watching, and I think in part of it is that we keep waiting for the catharsis of some poetic justice.

Agree 100%. Oberyn standing triumphant over the mountain was that fist pump moment where justice has finally come to kings landing. I've never been from riding so high to WTF NOOOOOOOooooooo........ so fast. I watch for when the justice train will come to town. It's gotta happen... right?

 

[Heshinsi]

I think the strongest common theme in what I have seen over three seasons is that shitty people do horrible things, and those that are wronged never get vindication/revenge. The death of Joffery teaches the reader/viewer that its not even a case of George setting up for a big pay-off later. No one wanted to see him die that way. The only protaganist that is getting her way is Daenerys, but I won't be surprised if she is killed off before she ever gets to King's Landing.

The big question of course, is whether Tyrion is going to die. Going by theme I've observed thus far, I'd say yes. For me the viewer I find that unfortunate, since he is such a strong character. I applaud George for being willing to kill off main charactrers, but I'm not always convinced that he is able to replace them successfully with other characters that I should care about. I honestly don't care about the whole Stanis plotline, mainly because I don't find myself rooting for or against. I'm just indifferent to what happens there. Same with the Grey Joy/Bolton plotline. I care about Theon, and Ramsay, but about those kingdoms in general.

I don't see how he gets out of a direct execution order. Dude already escaped by the skin of his teeth once during a trial by combat, and even if the Mountain is truly dead, Oberyn clearly dies before him. You're right though, the show has pretty much killed off the majority of likeable characters. Season 1 there was Ned to cheer for. Season 2/3 had Robb and the Stark revenge tour to cheer on. This season we had Oberyn. They're all dead. I like Dany and the Stark girls, but Dany is pretty decisive in how people view her, and the Stark girls really haven't done all that much. I kinda like Jon, but his storyline has been a real bore for awhile. The only major characters that have been introduced who are making big moves are the Boltons, and I can't stand those dick heads.

 

[Azih]

Show seems to me like every character is in a greek tragedy. It's their flaws that get them killed. Oberyn y u gotta showboat?

 

[Pandaman]

Tyrion could somehow escape and run for it.

but the problem is that there is no place for him to go and nothing for him to do there and if a character might as well be dead in this series, i can't imagine them not dying.

 

[Vashetti]

Tyrion could somehow escape and run for it.

but the problem is that there is no place for him to go and nothing for him to do there and if a character might as well be dead in this series, i can't imagine them not dying.

Only place for Tyrion is the Wall I think. He seemed to get on well with Jon.

 

[Ovid]

Stannis is going to bail out the Night's Watch and get mad respect from the North, IMO. The scene was foreshadowed in an earlier season when Davos handed Stannis the letter about what's coming to the North ... Davos bailed himself out of a death sentence with that one.

The only problem I have with this scenerio is how would Stannis know that there are 100,000 wildlings marching to the Wall? Unless Melisandre saw the WW and the Wildlings in the flames, I don't see how he could prepare for that (even with the backing of the Iron Bank).

EDIT: She mentioned that the true war lies to the North. Maybe she means a war with the Wildlings? The next two episodes are going to be so fun.

 

[Revolver]

My love/hate relationship with this show continues to demoralize me.
That was the classic bait and switch, my horrified face staring back at me in the black screen as the credits rolled.

Hope Tyrion finds a way out of this, his face at the end

That was my reaction to a tee. Tyrion's reaction mirrored my own. After all this time I know better, but that ending just left me gutted. My wife on the other hand was inconsolable, crying and yelling "I hate this fucking show!" I know that just like me she'll be back to see what happens to Tyrion.

I have a few ideas on the meaning behind it:

1. Sometimes things happen and there is no reason or logic to it.
2. Metaphor for the way Tyrion has been treated during his life. He is one of the beetles, constantly getting beaten down.
3. Very meta metaphor where George R.R Martin is the 'moron' who keeps indiscriminately killing off these characters for seemingly no reason.

I like that one. I can just picture GRRM at his keyboard gleefully smashing people's hopes.

 

[Heshinsi]

Show seems to me like every character is in a greek tragedy. It's their flaws that get them killed. Oberyn y u gotta showboat?

Showboating didn't get him killed though. You'd have a point if the Mountain hacked him down during one of his flashy twirls. His obsession to get the confession out of him made him lose his mind both figuratively and literally.

Only place for Tyrion is the Wall I think. He seemed to get on well with Jon.

Or hitch a ride to Dorne. The one place in Westeros that hates Lannisters, is probably the safest place for him if he escapes execution.

 

[Azih]

Showboating didn't get him killed though. You'd have a point if the Mountain hacked him down during one of his flashy twirls. His obsession to get the confession out of him made him lose his mind both figuratively and literally.

Fair enough. Dude still should have just killed the mountain when he had the chance. Obsession is as good a flaw as any to do you in.

 

[Pandaman]

Only place for Tyrion is the Wall I think. He seemed to get on well with Jon.

I suppose if Jon took command of the watch he could shelter Tyrion there, but to what end? I feel like Jon is already fleshed out enough as a character that Tyrion could not really mentor him on anything or contribute to the fight against the wildlings or walkers.

Or hitch a ride to Dorne. The one place in Westeros that hates Lannisters, is probably the safest place for him if he escapes execution.

same problem. what does he do in Dorne that is relevant enough to keep him as a main character? I don't think he's ever hinted at a relationship with Dorne and he had never met Oberyn before. [except as a baby]

 

[Heshinsi]

I suppose if Jon took command of the watch he could shelter Tyrion there, but to what end? I feel like Jon is already fleshed out enough as a character that Tyrion could not really mentor him on anything or contribute to the fight against the wildlings or walkers.


same problem. what does he do in Dorne that is relevant enough to keep him as a main character? I don't think he's ever hinted at a relationship with Dorne and he had never met Oberyn before. [except as a baby]

Fuck I don't know, if I was the Prince of Dorne and I just had my bro get killed like this, and a runaway Lannister showed up at my doorsteps; you bet your ass I'm going to use him to bring down his family. Works out even better that he hates his family, is a brilliant strategist, and has a bone to pick. I'd make him one of my generals and go ram him down some Lannister throats.

 

[MMBosstones86]

Only place for Tyrion is the Wall I think. He seemed to get on well with Jon.

Problem is, there may not be a Wall to go to by the time he even gets there.

 

[Boogalogist]

Only place for Tyrion is the Wall I think. He seemed to get on well with Jon.

There might not even be a wall left after the 100k strong, wildlings attack.

edit: nath-ed

 

[Fenderputty]

This....Dany was pretty damn lenient to exile Jorah instead of outright beheading him.

She was lenient. Something Jorah taught her. I too feel this will come back to haunt her one way or the other.

 

[Vashetti]

Problem is, there may not be a Wall to go to by the time he even gets there.

He can rule over the ruins

 

[Mayyhem]

I have a few ideas on the meaning behind it:

1. Sometimes things happen and there is no reason or logic to it.
2. Metaphor for the way Tyrion has been treated during his life. He is one of the beetles, constantly getting beaten down.
3. Very meta metaphor where George R.R Martin is the 'moron' who keeps indiscriminately killing off these characters for seemingly no reason.

Lmao, this makes the most sense

 

[justjim89]

The brutality of the spectacle of Oberyn's death, screaming through shattered teeth as massive hands rip his head apart,was enough to keep me from sleep for much of last night.

But what bothers me now is how terrible and nonsensical Oberyn's downfall was choreographed. The man can do eight flips in the air, using his spear as a pivot point, keep hold of it the whole time. But a man flat on his back sweeps a single leg from under him and he flies up in the air and lands flat on his back like a cartoon character on a banana peel,v letting his spear fly away in the process. He couldn't roll out of it, he couldn't immediately shift his weight to his other leg, he couldn't hold on to his fucking spear he was so tightly holding before. His Achilles heel was literally his fucking heel, and it just seems like an absurd way to end such a well choreographed fight. There are innumerable ways that they could have arrived at that finish while still putting over Oberyn's thirst for vengeance and overconfidence without immediately stripping away all his fighting and dodging prowess in one fell swoop of his feet.

Shit, I feel like two WWE guys could have come up with a better transition into that finish on the fly instead of the one we got. Also, watching Oberyn fail so frustratingly close to victory quickly took the sting away from Seth Rollins betraying The Shield.

 

[Revolver]

Problem is, there may not be a Wall to go to by the time he even gets there.

Exactly. Or he gets there just as the wildlings raid the place and kill everyone. Whatever happens I'm just going to expect the worst.

My wife is starting to worry me. She said that if Arya gets killed she's going to hunt down GRRM and go Misery on his ass. Ha!

 

[RDreamer]

Fair enough. Dude still should have just killed the mountain when he had the chance. Obsession is as good a flaw as any to do you in.

People seem to be reading Oberyn wrong. His point wasn't to kill the mountain. He wasn't fighting for Tyrion to free him. He was doing it to expose Tywin Lannister. That was his goal, not just killing him. That would have done nothing. If he was just going to kill him then there was no point in even being Tyrion's champion. Sure his obsession killed him, but his 'obsession' was the only reason he was even fighting in the first place.

Realistically Oberyn should have just tortured The Mountain more. Should have kept his distance. Stabbed the dude's fucking hands as he lay there. That sort of thing. He got careless.

 

[Pandaman]

Exactly. Or he gets there just as the wildlings raid the place and kill everyone. Whatever happens I'm just going to expect the worst.

My wife is starting to worry me. She said that if Arya gets killed she's going to hunt down GRRM and go Misery on his ass. Ha!

she gets seasick on the way to Braavos and falls over the side of the boat.

 

[Heshinsi]

The brutality of the spectacle of Oberyn's death, screaming through shattered teeth as massive hands rip his head apart,was enough to keep me from sleep for much of last night.

But what bothers me now is how terrible and nonsensical Oberyn's downfall was choreographed. The man can do eight flips in the air, using his spear as a pivot point, keep hold of it the whole time. But a man flat on his back sweeps a single leg from under him and he flies up in the air and lands flat on his back like a cartoon character on a banana peel,v letting his spear fly away in the process. He couldn't roll out of it, he couldn't immediately shift his weight to his other leg, he couldn't hold on to his fucking spear he was so tightly holding before. His Achilles heel was literally his fucking heel, and it just seems like an absurd way to end such a well choreographed fight. There are innumerable ways that they could have arrived at that finish while still putting over Oberyn's thirst for vengeance and overconfidence without immediately stripping away all his fighting and dodging prowess in one fell swoop of his feet.

Shit, I feel like two WWE guys could have come up with a better transition into that finish on the fly instead of the one we got. Also, watching Oberyn fail so frustratingly close to victory quickly took the sting away from Seth Rollins betraying The Shield.

Do you recall when the Mountain does that powerful leg swipe at an unarmed Oberyn, and the Prince just cartwheels over it? I said before, that Mountain revival bit looked so fake, and makes no sense considering the injures he had. How does he even roll over on Oberyn with an Achilles that torn? Not to mention how fucking calm and he was during his kill. One minute he's dead like , the next minute he's like the undertaker coming back to life right when John Cena starts yapping on the mic.