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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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I think Sepinwall's review got at the big problem with the Castle Black episode. We just weren't given enough reason to emotionally invest in the fighting because the men of the Night's Watch are so undercooked as characters. Pyp and Grenn were the big deaths that episode besides Ygritte, and I honestly could not remember their names until after the episode.
From what I hear from book folks, the Battle at Castle Black is supposed to be a big deal, so I understand why it got an entire episode. I just wish the characters involved were more developed so I could get into it beyond the sheer spectacle.
It was weird with all the supernatural crap. Since when are there vampires in GoT?
No they wouldn't say that. They'd call her cold blooded and bad for killing him because apparently people who harm you, enslave others, murder your followers are supposed to be treated with love and kindness.
Is Dany a naive girl who has never had the training and experience a person in her position would have had, if they weren't running around from the moment of being born trying to stay alive from killers? Yes. Does Dany at times not heed advise from her advisors (I know of one instance but whatever)? Yes. Is she a cold blooded bad person for having ordered the killings of slavers and murderers who have harmed her, her followers, and other scores of innocent people directly? No. It doesn't even make sense to occur her of that.
Zombie wight Starks owned and made minced meat out of the King's guard.
Psychoward
Banned
We're talking purely about acting here, and Stannis' actor (forget his name and no way in hell I'm googling) does a fine job at portraying him. On the other hand every time Dany opens her mouth to make a grand speech it just comes off as incredibly fake and cheesy.
SuperAndroid17
Member
I can agree with this.
Lamel
Banned
The actress is still terrible at conveying emotion.
I'll admit the beginning was slow, what with all the hardcore sex scenes between Jon Snow and Samwell, but once the the wolf Ninjas showed things picked up speed.
I can't believe Greywind was working for Cersei the whole time, that bastard!
Daenerys deserves the hate. Not just because Emilia Clarke is one of the worst actors in the show, but because the character is just overwhelmingly naive to the point of stupidity.
You can't expect to abolish slavery overnight in cities that have stood for hundreds if not thousands of years. A truly just leader would show them a better way, rather than killing them outright. Dany is a dictator. You do things MY way, or you die. Yes, slavery is bad, but it needs to be a gradual change.
What do you do when the slaves are freed? Where do you house them? How do you feed them indefinitely? Many of these people would be unskilled workers and unable to support themselves, not to mention they'd need time to adjust to freedom.
Killing the masters is another example of her rashness. She never stopped to think that maybe not all of the masters were evil? Or even if they did agree with slavery...is this not them just living the way their ancestors lived before them? Daenerys views the world in black and white: you are either good and will join her, or evil and must die.
While I appreciated the irony of the 'breaker of chains' having to lock up her Dragons...god this was a stupid decision. What does she intend to do with them now? The way I see it, she only had two rational decisions here: accept that these are Dragons and they are occasionally going to be accidents, or kill them. If she ever releases those Dragons from the catacombs they aren't going to forget this.
She's a fucking dolt, and god help Westeros if she ever sits on the Iron Throne.
You can't expect to abolish slavery overnight in cities that have stood for hundreds if not thousands of years. A truly just leader would show them a better way, rather than killing them outright. Dany is a dictator. You do things MY way, or you die. Yes, slavery is bad, but it needs to be a gradual change.
What do you do when the slaves are freed? Where do you house them? How do you feed them indefinitely? Many of these people would be unskilled workers and unable to support themselves, not to mention they'd need time to adjust to freedom.
Killing the masters is another example of her rashness. She never stopped to think that maybe not all of the masters were evil? Or even if they did agree with slavery...is this not them just living the way their ancestors lived before them? Daenerys views the world in black and white: you are either good and will join her, or evil and must die.
While I appreciated the irony of the 'breaker of chains' having to lock up her Dragons...god this was a stupid decision. What does she intend to do with them now? The way I see it, she only had two rational decisions here: accept that these are Dragons and they are occasionally going to be accidents, or kill them. If she ever releases those Dragons from the catacombs they aren't going to forget this.
She's a fucking dolt, and god help Westeros if she ever sits on the Iron Throne.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
yeah, I'm not getting the hate either. I'm bored with her storyline, and I don't think Emilia Clarke is a great actor, but the character isn't bad. It's actually interesting seeing her transition from a helpless child to a more confident, but naive, leader with a simplistic moral code. I can't believe she was compared to Joffrey at one point. Joffrey was sadistic. He would enjoy locking those dragons up in the catacombs. If someone brought their char-broiled baby to him, he might struggle to stifle his laughter.
She's a teenager who was sheltered most of her life. Only recently has she come into power. She's grown up knowing her brother is the "rightful" king (which to our ears sounds like nonsense), and she lives in a world where most moral codes are naive and simplistic. She also happens to have supernatural powers and a bizarre link to dragons, so forgive her if she feels destined to rule the world. She's acting like most ignorant people would. How she responds to the incongruence between her naive beliefs and reality will tell us how smart she actually is.
Well, that's not really a fair comparison. Stannis as a character is incredibly aloof and bottled-up. He doesn't show much emotion, but that's by design, and isn't a mark on the actor. You may find the character dull or whatnot because of those traits, but the actor is playing Stannis exactly the way he should be.
If people don't feel Dany is effective at showing emotion that's specifically a criticism of Emilia Clarke's acting, since clearly the character at least as written in the show is quite impassioned about various things.
Having said that, I don't have any major problems with Dany nor her storyline. Granted it's stalling quite a bit, and the stuff keeping her from just going to Westeros seems fairly contrived, but I'm willing to wait it out. And yes, the comparisons to Joffrey are ridiculous.
Chuck Norris
Banned
And what are we to expect of her character? Complete perfection in her omnipotence?
Clark is doing a perfect job portraying what the character is; a young girl whose only claim to leadership is a bloodline and having Dragons who is attempting things nobody else has ever done. Like every character in the show she is multi-layered, and the facade she puts on does not always match who the character actually is. Dany tries to make the right decisions even if they aren't always correct and she is coming from a place of inexperience, and she puts on a tough facade but we all know that if she didn't have Dragons nobody would be following her. And that is probably the point of her growth - she is going to make mistakes and she isn't going to be instantly Tywin Lannister when playing the Game of Thrones
Perhaps the show runners have drifted too far from showing Dany the person and are only showing Dany the leader. The balance was better in season one and then kind of drifted away in season two and on
UnObtainium17
Member
40 more sundays like this, bros and sis.
Etrian Oddity
Member
I feel it's worth mentioning the age difference between Dany in the books and Dany in the show. Isn't Dany like, 14 in the novels? It makes sense how naive she is.
How old is she in the show by season 4?
Well, shit. If she has the power to kill Hitler, she should fucking do it.
Hitler doesn't stand a chance vs dragons.Chuck Norris
Banned
How old is she in the show by season 4?
Well, shit. If she has the power to kill Hitler, she should fucking do it.
They have been vague with the timeline and ages in the show, you'd assume a year or two older than when the show started.
If we are going that way than that applies for everyone. Jon Snow is 14, Robb was 15, Bran is like 9, Arya is 7 I think etc. If those characters' actions don't need to be excused by their book age then neither do Dany's.
MidnightCowboy
Member
Killing off the best actor on the show is a huge bummer.
I'm not expecting perfection from her, I just dislike most of the decisions she has made and it makes much of her storyline frustrating to watch. I do feel like if the actress portraying her actually matched her intended age in the books it would make them easier to swallow, though.
I think the biggest problem is Emilia Clarke's complete lack of charisma tbh.
I think the biggest problem is Emilia Clarke's complete lack of charisma tbh.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
She looked really young in the first season. Like, 14 or 15 young (I know the actress is a lot older). And she only started visibly maturing partway through season 1. Prior to that, I get the impression that she was treated as a child or object for most of her life. What sort of education or guidance did she received while she and her brother hid in exile? Did they have any parental or familial guidance, anyone looking out for them that wasn't out to use them as a bargaining chip? I get the impression that she's young, profoundly ignorant, and lacking any self worth at the beginning of the series. She has grown a lot since then, but yeah, she's still really naive about a lot of things, and I don't fault her.
I think what Chuck Norris said may have a bearing on how we perceive her. In the earlier seasons, there was a greater balance between Dany the person and Dany the leader. For the last season or so, most of our exposure to Dany has been her making speeches or decrees, during which she puts on a mask. That said, she doesn't have much charisma with this mask on, and you get the sense that she should; people around her respond to her as if she does have charisma, and it doesn't ring true to me.
I think what Chuck Norris said may have a bearing on how we perceive her. In the earlier seasons, there was a greater balance between Dany the person and Dany the leader. For the last season or so, most of our exposure to Dany has been her making speeches or decrees, during which she puts on a mask. That said, she doesn't have much charisma with this mask on, and you get the sense that she should; people around her respond to her as if she does have charisma, and it doesn't ring true to me.
This so much.
You don't fault her for her naivete even when she's having thousands of masters murdered for upholding the customs of the city they were born to?
I understand it, but I damn well fault her for it.
I think we got another four seasons before winter finally comes, since that's about when we should be getting into content from the yet-to-be-released sixth book "The Winds of Winter."
Basileus777
Member
There's only three more seasons of the show left.
Tyrion ain't dead.
Oh so they're not doing the whole splitting of each book into two anymore.
Then I guess winter will come next season or the one after.
Steelyuhas
Member
The show doesn't look like it's even going to have 4 more seasons.
MidnightCowboy
Member
Peter Dinklage is great, probably a close second, but Charles Dance owned every scene he was in.
demosthenes
Member
7 is not set in stone.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
MISSANDEI
;__;
omg i just realised how close her name is to misandry
LOL
and wow i can't believe the dany hate :O
I spoke negatively of her and her treatments of her dragons before, and I got the vibes that she has a lot of supporters. So this is quite surprising.
I like both Dany and Stannis. I have no faction.
ok i lied. i am with the Lord Petyr Baelish. The one true middlefinger that will fuck them all > ...... before dying horribly :<
...... before dying horribly :<Basileus777
Member
It's the long held plan the show runners have stuck by and continue to say is the plan.
Whoops, Sorry!
demosthenes
Member
2 books are yet to be written. It is not set in stone.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
no probs <33333 it was more hilarious than anything else :> really
BigJonsson
Member
Queen Elizabeth II is going to Westeros (Northern Ireland) to take her place on the Iron Throne
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
People shitting on Emilia Clarkes acting is whatever. I have no qualms with anyone disliking her acting honestly. I think she does a decent job, but I wouldn't put her in the upper tier of actors on this show. Funnily enough, the only time I hear people talking shit about her acting is in this thread. Never in any review videos I watch, nor articles I have read, nor the people I talk to in person. It seems to me like a vocal minority. But this is purely anecdotal.
You say this like you have all the right answers. What if this actually was the best way? We'll never know, we only have speculation. Fact of the matter is a lot of innocent people who were once cattle are now men and women.
And show them a better way than killing? What were they supposed to do instead of rise up against their masters, talk them into submission and hopefully they would eventually come to their senses? Something tells me that's not going to happen with these people who nailed 160+ children to a fucking stake and had their best warrior come out and piss at her feet in protest. It seems to me all they know is the harshness of might. They were not going to just come around after a while, this is who they were, this was their fucking identity.
It's funny, some people have the same "they should have just let slavery gradually die" idea when it pertains to the old South here in America. Yeah, fuck that shit. Another day of slavery is a blight on humanity. The sooner it's abolished the sooner we can heal and move forward. Sorry, but you don't play the waiting game with slavery.
And who the hell isn't a dictator in game of Thrones?! The name of the show is based on the idea of monarchy for christ sakes. You think guys like Stannis, Tywin, Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoyy, etc aren't dictatorial? Because they fucking are. Everyone who has their eye on the throne is a dictator at heart. It's part of the game. Shitting on Dany for this is some super weak stuff when it's a common character trait amongst the people with their eyes on the throne.
Freedom isn't always easy, friend. Things will need to be ironed out. Plans will need to be made. Decisions made more carefully. No newly freed nation has had an easy time adjusting to huge changes. There is nothing abnormal about the struggles going on here (save for the dragons ripping shit up).
But guess what? That's the price of freedom. And better to pay the price of a few years of hard times as a free man than another moment of hard times as a slave. She did the right thing liberating them from their chains ASAP. Period.
Oh please, give me a fucking break. How dare she not have the foresight and consideration to think maybe not all the people who used other people as cattle and objects wasn't a curly mustached villain. Boo-fucking-hoo. Spare me.
Anyone who died on that cross deserved it because they were masters. I don't care if they were "one of the good ones" what they were apart of was pure evil. If they were so "good" why did they even take part in that shit? Why not go to a city that didn't commit these heinous fucking atrocities? Don't tell me they didn't have the means to do so when they had the means to OWN OTHER PEOPLE. Spare. Me. That. Bullshit.
If this is truly the way "Their ancestors lived before them" then they deserve worse than what they got. Hell, in my opinion, she was generous. How many slaves do you think have died over the centuries do to these fucking assholes? Countless. How many of theirs died? 200, maybe? You'll have to excuse me if I'm not shedding any tears for the masters that may have not been so bad when so many innocent people have died and lived a life of servitude for their precious culture.
And as far as her seeing the world as black and white, that's garbage. She see's the world the way she sees the world. Would you say Stannis sees the world as black and white? How about Ned Stark? Robb Stark? Jon Snow? Tywin Lannister? Arya Stark? The Hound? Because I can make a case for all of them viewing the world as black and white. Right and wrong. My way or the high-way. Yet people love these characters, myself included, and I'm sure you do too.
Also, Dany has shown time and again that she is not above taking advice, or learning from her mistake. She does make effort.
There was nothing stupid about what she did at all. She understands that they're getting to a point where they're becoming a bit of a hassle to control totally. So she only does the reasonable thing in this situation, locking them up. She could just kill them, I guess, but how many people do you know would drive a steak through their childs heart?
Maybe they'll remember this and take revenge. Maybe they wont. Maybe they'll act like most children/animals do and just be happy to see their mother again when she comes. Who knows. What I do know is that she was smart enough to know that she didn't have complete control over her mystical beasts and decided to put them on lock-down, tossed into a glorified dog house. The way some people in here reacted to it was as if she just sent her own children to the Dragon equivalent of Auschwitz.
She'll be a hell of a lot better than the last 3 people that have sat on it I can tell you that much. Although that is not exactly a high bar to pass I must admit...
And also, I'll take my chances with the young, intelligent, caring, but clearly naive woman who believes in justice and actually looking out for her lower classed subjects, over a crazy voodoo fire witch who kills innocent people (because that's what you're getting with Stannis. Not Stannis. A Voodoo witch.) or a boy who just had his first wet dream.
But that's me.
Basileus777
Member
That's the books, the TV show is doing its own thing. The books will remain unfinished by the time this is over anyway. And never did I use the phrase set in stone. They've written the scripts for season 5 under the assumption there will be 7 seasons.
I've made the same observation, actually. Emilia Clarke does a solid job most of the time, yet so many people here seem allergic to her merely speaking. The scene where Dany exiles Jorah? I felt she did a pretty good job there, one of the better examples of her skill, but apparently it was poor-awful according to a number of people here. The scene where Dany locks up her dragons? Again, she executed that quite nicely, but all some people could think when they saw her tearful expression was "lol @ the splash of water."
It's bizarre and understandable at the same time. On one hand, I feel some people are more or less locked into disliking her portrayal, along with irrationally reacting to the actual character, and GAF has certainly been an outlier in that sense (in my experience). On the other, I think Clarke is legitimately not quite as good as the top echelon of actors on this show most of the time, and the way her character is written (the whole Mother of Dragons thing) particularly plays into how people perceive Clarke. On that latter point, I felt most people were pretty receptive to Clarke/Dany during the whole Daario x Dany scene, when the Mother of Dragons hat was removed for a little while. In my mind, that points to people's issue not being primarily with Clarke, but more losing a taste for the whole regal attitude, finding it tiring, and waiting for a change of pace for the character.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
wow, forcey, i have to admire your zeal. your allegiance to the mother of dragons is something :>
that was a very interesting response on dany's behalf. thanks for the read.
some parts i dont totally agree with, but i can see your perspective on her circumstances.
So the show is going to overtake the books? That's crazy. Pull your finger out GRRM!
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
I'm pretty sure she's one of the most liked characters along with Jon and Tyrion in the series overall. I think she is a solid actress that does a solid job, she's just in a show where nearly the entire cast does an amazing job which is unfortunate for her. I do cringe when she gets nominated for best actress though, she's good but there's loads better. Other than that, I think it's GRRIM's fault for her storyline boring me much more than Emilia.MISSANDEI
;__;
omg i just realised how close her name is to misandry
LOL
and wow i can't believe the dany hate :O
I spoke negatively of her and her treatments of her dragons before, and I got the vibes that she has a lot of supporters. So this is quite surprising.
I like both Dany and Stannis. I have no faction.
ok i lied. i am with the Lord Petyr Baelish. The one true middlefinger that will fuck them all >
Would someone be interested in creating a new thread to talk about the differences between the books and the TV series UNTIL that point and not further?
I really would like to know how book readers imagined things in their head compared to the TV show without being spoiled with future plot points. I'm a junior! Thanks!
I really would like to know how book readers imagined things in their head compared to the TV show without being spoiled with future plot points. I'm a junior!
Thanks!YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Yeah, I think so! All of the work mates I have in real that watches GoT loves Dany!
But yea, I agree, best actress is kind of... overreaching.
I like her, in general, but I like that she's complicated and not perfect, so sometimes I criticize her. But I enjoy that about the characters in GoT. Everyone's flawed, in some manners. Some more so than others, no doubt.
Would someone be interested in creating a new thread to talk about the differences between the books and the TV series UNTIL that point and not further?
I really would like to know how book readers imagined things in their head compared to the TV show without being spoiled with future plot points. I'm a junior!
The latest ComicBookGirl19 recap video is great for this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sObc3-0BJZQ
She won't go into future plot points but she goes extensively over the major things that were changed. Her series is intended for non-book readers. Comments are even disabled to prevent anyone spoiling.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Check out the ComicBookGirl vids as mentioned above. She gives warnings before delving into spoilers.Would someone be interested in creating a new thread to talk about the differences between the books and the TV series UNTIL that point and not further?
I really would like to know how book readers imagined things in their head compared to the TV show without being spoiled with future plot points. I'm a junior!
I doubt such a thread would work, given some people's inability not to spoil future events while discussing changes. However if you're interested in book differences you can PM me or the other people listed in the OP of the "no book spoilers" thread.
Thanks! I'll have a look at ComicBookGirl first.
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