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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 4 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]

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You think so? Those two had different upbringings, one from a noble/honorable house, the other from a house who approves of wholesale family murder, red weddings, and the like. I would think some of Eddard Stark rubbed off on Sansa, while Cersei was raised from Tywin Lannister's school of thought. I think Cersei was corrupt before she married Robert.

Yeah, I'd have to agree. Tywin is about as hard and stern as they come. That coupled with the points you made, Cercei and Sansa are from 2 completely different worlds.

I do think that at some point Cercei wasn't as miserable as she is, but I've not doubt she was always as evil. Sansa on the other hand has probably been the softest character on the show.
 

Nameless

Member
So her saying she loves her children makes you feel sorry for her?

Dude, she's the fucking QUEEN. She has gone out of her way to make everyone miserable. Who gives a shit if she loves her children and would have offed herself otherwise? Crocodile tears. She has money, power, and a family who is running shit. Fuck her. She's an awful person. If you looked at the wedding entertainment she was laughing at the same shit Joffrey was. She nursed that little monster into being because shes just like Joffrey.

No one's calling her a saint, but to put her on the same tier as Joffrey is a bit extreme. Cersei didn't choose to have a psycho son, she didn't choose to fall in love with her brother, nor did she choose to be born a woman in a world where women are systemically fucked over & held back.

Consider further that around Sansa's age she was given to King Robert, a legendary warrior and pathetic man, who dedicated his life to drinking & whoring to numb the pain of being in love with a dead woman. On top of that she loses their infant child, her first son.

Lena's performance accurately depicts a woman carrying those burdens, and how they help shape the cold, bitter, spiteful, manipulative shrew we know and love/hate.


That scene was fantastic. It gave you sole incite into both of them. However that doesn't change what Cerci is.

Lena can act though.

Another good one

http://youtu.be/YwwkKHw3pdM
 

Matt_

World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
I still believe Varys was involved somehow.
The guy knows absolutely everything that happens and he was being shady as fuck during every shot at the reception.
He's always been for the good of the realm and Joffrey definitely aint that so if he didn't actually help plot the death he must have known and did nothing about it
 

Nameless

Member
I still believe Varys was involved somehow.
The guy knows absolutely everything that happens and he was being shady as fuck during every shot at the reception.
He's always been for the good of the realm and Joffrey definitely aint that so if he didn't actually help plot the death he must have known and did nothing about it

Given Varys' relationship with Olenna and how they conspired to wed Sansa to Loris I'd say this is likely. He'd also have the connections needed to obtain such an exotic, easily camouflaged poison.

Too bad he was bludgeoned to death by mini-Renly during the ceremony.

QZqS76L.gif
 

Kimaka

Member
Cersei is exactly what Sansa would turn into had she married Joffrey. A bitter, twisted woman who had all her expectations shattered.

She projects herself on Sansa because she reminds her so much of her.

Cersei definitely sees herself in Sansa but Sansa would have been turned into a Reek for Joffrey if they married. Cersei is what Ayra would have turn into had Ned survived and forced her to marry although not as cruel as Cersei. Sansa is the type to put her head down for self-preservation while Cersei and Ayra are too headstrong to not pushback. This is also why Ayra would have been dead by now if she were in Sansa's place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4TrMopM7aQ#t=7m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4TrMopM7aQ#t=9m46s
The Blackwater scenes between Cersei and Sansa are my favorite. In her own twisted way, Cersei is teaching Sansa the realities of being a woman in Westeros. As a woman, you're just a tool especially as a Lord's daughter. You don't get to marry who you like, you'll be given to another man like an animal so that your family can forge alliances. You don't want to get married, you hate your husband, and you don't want children? Well, that's too bad. You have to learn to like it otherwise you'll likely get raped so you can bare an heir. Figuring that out was especially hard for Cersei since she saw through Jamie how she would have been treated had she been born a man.
 

Mario007

Member
Given Varys' relationship with Olenna and how they conspired to wed Sansa to Loris I'd say this is likely. He'd also have the connections needed to obtain such an exotic, easily camouflaged poison.

Too bad he was bludgeoned to death by mini-Renly during the ceremony.

QZqS76L.gif

Doesn't seem to be Varys' style. He doesn't do the deeds or help do the deeds. He whispers into the ears of others to do things for him. Like he said in the very episode, he doesn't have guards and soldiers guarding him. All he has are his little birds.
 
Napoleon had a formidable army, and had designs to invade Britain. Those dreams were dashed when the Brits sank what little of a navy he had, and as I result, he decided on a grand continental campaign instead. Simply having the best army in the world will do you no good, if you lack the means to get them from point A to B.
My issue isn't whether it makes logical sense for Danaerys to invade at the current moment; it absolutely doesn't, she doesn't have enough troops (to take over an entire continent, even though she could certainly force surrenders through fear of the dragons), as you've mentioned she doesn't have naval support, the slaves she possesses probably aren't particularly well-trained, and she doesn't knowingly have any support in Westeros (and she most enter with the assumption that she will be facing the entire continent). My frustration is that her storyline is not one I find compelling any longer. The detachment to the main events, combined with the lack of knowledge she has of the land is a significant reason for this as it means that the characters she is playing off are primarily from her ranks (and as a result, generally have a similar relationship [I know there are sizeable differences, such as the relationship she has with Daario, Jorah, and Barristan for example; their outlook is primarily one of admiration, even if there are variations in the reasoning, and the personal relationship they have with her]), or characters introduced from whatever conflict she is currently engaged in who are fleeting (or have been thus far), presented in a manner which reinforces how fantastic Danaerys is (cruel slavers, and people obsessed with wealth in contrast to the kind, naive liberator that is Danaerys) creating a sense of repetition with her storyline and making her arc of 'slave-like (being sold to Drogo) girl who grows in power and confidence to become the culture-defying benevolent ruler/liberator/conqueror (depending on when she invades) of Westeros' rather bland (again, as she's been portrayed so heavily as benevolent, I believe the direction we're heading is some corruption of morals as ideals conflict with reality, and that will certainly ignite some further interest in her storyline if we go that way, but the isolation still serves as a heavy detriment). This lack of compelling situations she finds herself in (again, only my view for the reasons listed) is what makes the stalling (going from city to city to gather troops, naval equipment, experience as a ruler, and time for the dragons to grow further, so that she can begin her invasion at the most fitting point in the overall narrative [presumably shortly before or after Winter so that either her army and Westeros' is largely decimated before the White Walker threat, and then must deal with that, or so that her army is one of the final hopes of Westeros]) frustrating. Her plotline is ripe for rich stories (supplying of troops, defying of cultural norms, difficulties as a female ruler in a male-dominated world, training the troops, difficulties in sticking to her ideals in a world which renders this difficult, potential hypocrisy in her view of slavery, etc.), but with so many other characters (and almost nobody else in her location so she can interact with them) to deal with, in much more dynamic storylines, I don't think there has been enough time to make the most of these to make her compelling (in addition to some oversights like the lack of any mention of the usage of Astapor's naval fleet, which there surely are given that it's a coastal city).

Perhaps my view is not one that's shared, but so far, despite being able to recognise why her plot is occurring as it is, it isn't something I can get behind given the rather one-dimensional (this is overly simplifying it, I know, but I don't feel she has the depth of the other characters in her presentation due to the lack of interaction she has with a diverse range of well-developed characters) aspect to it since the first season.
 

Nameless

Member
Doesn't seem to be Varys' style. He doesn't do the deeds or help do the deeds. He whispers into the ears of others to do things for him. Like he said in the very episode, he doesn't have guards and soldiers guarding him. All he has are his little birds.

While we may not have been given direct confirmation, it's heavily implied that Varys, who has Jorah spying on Daeny, facilitated the attempt on her life:

http://youtu.be/YUjPBtlhBls

Good thing Jorah came to his senses and stopped her from drinking the poisoned wine:

http://youtu.be/HP6XPtO6Ng0

You could be right though. I can also see a scenario where Varys heard whispers and allowed it to happen.
 

inm8num2

Member
I still believe Varys was involved somehow.
The guy knows absolutely everything that happens and he was being shady as fuck during every shot at the reception.
He's always been for the good of the realm and Joffrey definitely aint that so if he didn't actually help plot the death he must have known and did nothing about it

I think we're better off guessing who wasn't involved rather than who was.

The whole thing reminds me a Murder on the Orient Express type situation. So many people had good reason to see Joffrey killed, and I wouldn't be surprised if they all played some part in it. An underground, top-secret, collaborative effort.
 
Make no mistake, Cersei is an evil woman. She's also a masterful checkers player who fancies herself a chess champion, which is all the more dangerous to the realm considering her position of power and influence. She loves power and is fiercely protective of it, insomuch that she conspired in the deliberate murder attempt of a child and she has absolutely no qualm with the notion of exacting murder or suffering on others to further her selfish ambition. Her own father doesn't think much of her, and has admitted as much to her face. But because she exhibits a brief flash of maternal emotion - for someone who ensured her security and seat in power, no less - she's now eligible for sympathy despite the numerous crimes and acts of sheer stupidity she's committed in the eyes of family, the gods, and the law? Please. She deserves to die. The realm would improve ten fold for it.

Never said she didn't deserve to die. And of course the realm would be better off without her. My post was regarding how Lena has successfully conveyed emotional depth that extends beyond the cold, bitter woman we typically identify Cersei as. There have been plenty of scenes (like the ones Nameless and I have posted) that have served to make viewers understand why the character is the way she is and, similar to Tony Soprano, I think they do a good job of humanizing the monster.
 

Mario007

Member
http://youtu.be/YUjPBtlhBls

While we may not have been given direct confirmation, it's heavily implied that Varys, who has Jorah spying on Daeny, facilitated the attempt on her life:

http://youtu.be/YUjPBtlhBls

Good thing Jorah came to his senses and stopped her from drinking the poisoned wine:

http://youtu.be/HP6XPtO6Ng0

You could be right though. I can also see a scenario where Varys heard whispers and allowed it to happen.

Yeah but that was Varys following the orders from Robert. So he was safe. He made it clear to Ned and to Tyrion that he would never directly put himself in danger. He moves the players on the field but never actually enters it himself. He's a bit different in this way than Littlefinger.
 

Nameless

Member
Cersei definitely sees herself in Sansa but Sansa would have been turned into a Reek for Joffrey if they married. Cersei is what Ayra would have turn into had Ned survived and forced her to marry although not as cruel as Cersei. Sansa is the type to put her head down for self-preservation while Cersei and Ayra are too headstrong to not pushback. This is also why Ayra would have been dead by now if she were in Sansa's place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4TrMopM7aQ#t=7m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4TrMopM7aQ#t=9m46s
The Blackwater scenes between Cersei and Sansa are my favorite. In her own twisted way, Cersei is teaching Sansa the realities of being a woman in Westeros. As a woman, you're just a tool especially as a Lord's daughter. You don't get to marry who you like, you'll be given to another man like an animal so that your family can forge alliances. You don't want to get married, you hate your husband, and you don't want children? Well, that's too bad. You have to learn to like it otherwise you'll likely get raped so you can bare an heir. Figuring that out was especially hard for Cersei since she saw through Jamie how she would have been treated had she been born a man.

More great work. You really get a sense that Cersei is both annoyed and amused by Sansa's youthful ignorance. While feeling some obligation to help this girl learn to navigate and survive the treacherous waters of King Landing and the responsibilities of being queen, that she her self had to endure at that age. The scene after Sansa has her period is more of the same..
 

Nameless

Member
Yeah but that was Varys following the orders from Robert. So he was safe. He made it clear to Ned and to Tyrion that he would never directly put himself in danger. He moves the players on the field but never actually enters it himself. He's a bit different in this way than Littlefinger.

Well everything was in place to kill Daeny, but he chose when to bring his info to Robert and Robert signs off. Either way it sets a precedent that he has the means to kill royal figures with poisoned wine.

The main thing that has me weary of pegging Varys a conspirator is I don't think he'd knowingly have Tyrion framed to take the fall, though it's possible that's not what he intended to happen.
 

Nameless

Member
Good video. How many are involved? If it was Varys acting alone you'd think he'd done it more cleanly. One of the conspirator's wanted it at the wedding.

I think it was pretty smart hitting him at his wedding. With hundreds of guests doubling as potential killers how do you nail down the killer? As opposed to Jon Steyn's death where it didn't take Ned long to figure out who had access to his meals/chambers and deduce the killer's identify from there.

I'm certain Olenna is a player, but I couldn't tell yiu hos far things extend beyond her.
 
The main thing that has me weary of pegging Varys a conspirator is I don't think he'd knowingly have Tyrion framed to take the fall, though it's possible that's not what he intended to happen.

As big of a well know ass as Joffrey is, I doubt anyone would have expected him to force Tyrion to be his cup bearer.

I think Verys is definitely involved. How often have we heard him say "For the good of the realm".
 

solarus

Member
Yeah but that was Varys following the orders from Robert. So he was safe. He made it clear to Ned and to Tyrion that he would never directly put himself in danger. He moves the players on the field but never actually enters it himself. He's a bit different in this way than Littlefinger.
Yes he was just following orders.
You guys have completely forgotten that arya eavesdropped on illyrio and varys conspiring in season 1. Varys wants the targaeryans back on the throne, he was hoping the war would break out later- giving enough time for khal drogo and his khalasar to prepare so that while westeros was at war they would cross the narrow sea and attack, thus claiming the throne easily. He does not want danny dead.
 

Vashetti

Banned
You think so? Those two had different upbringings, one from a noble/honorable house, the other from a house who approves of wholesale family murder, red weddings, and the like. I would think some of Eddard Stark rubbed off on Sansa, while Cersei was raised from Tywin Lannister's school of thought. I think Cersei was corrupted long before she married Robert.

Oh definitely! You have to look past the different upbringing element.

Both young women when they were bethrothed to get married:

  • Cersei to Robert Baratheon
  • Sansa to Joffrey Baratheon/Lannister

Both "loved" the man they were supposed to marry, prior to getting to know them:

  • Robert crawls onto Cersei drunk on their wedding night and calls her Lyanna (Stark), shatters her expectations
  • Joffrey is a sociopath who repeatedly mistreats and abuses Sansa, again shatters her expectations when she thought she was getting Prince Charming

Both naive prior to getting thrown into an extremely male-dominated world of politics. Cersei definitely sees herself in Sansa, watch back all of their scenes together. She takes pleasure in both degrading and teaching Sansa the ways of being a woman.
 

spirity

Member
Cersei is a never ending stream of sly grins and snotty jabs. Although I can understand why she is the way she is, she -is- a twat.
 

Cyan

Banned
Yes he was just following orders.
You guys have completely forgotten that arya eavesdropped on illyrio and varys conspiring in season 1. Varys wants the targaeryans back on the throne, he was hoping the war would break out later- giving enough time for khal drogo and his khalasar to prepare so that while westeros was at war they would cross the narrow sea and attack, thus claiming the throne easily. He does not want danny dead.

Hmm? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought the thing where he talked with Illyrio was related to him wanting to get rid of Dany. No?
 
Oh definitely! You have to look past the different upbringing element.

Both young women when they were bethrothed to get married:

  • Cersei to Robert Baratheon
  • Sansa to Joffrey Baratheon/Lannister

Both "loved" the man they were supposed to marry, prior to getting to know them:

  • Robert crawls onto Cersei drunk on their wedding night and calls her Lyanna (Stark), shatters her expectations
  • Joffrey is a sociopath who repeatedly mistreats and abuses Sansa, again shatters her expectations when she thought she was getting Prince Charming

Both naive prior to getting thrown into an extremely male-dominated world of politics. Cersei definitely sees herself in Sansa, watch back all of their scenes together. She takes pleasure in both degrading and teaching Sansa the ways of being a woman.

I suspect Daenerys and Sansa have suffered more traumatic experiences, but they've maintained their sense of compassion, morality, and justice. Outside of the loss of her mother and the sudden disillusionment of her preconceived notions of royalty and marriage, what real loss and horror has Cersei experienced (prior to the death of King Joff) that could possibly explain her sinister profile? Because her husband cheat on her? So what? Eddard Stark brought a bastard back from the war and raised him under the same roof as his own wife, but Catelyn Stark didn't transform into some vicious Machiavellian creature because of it.

You give Cersei too much credit. Robert didn't make her the monster that she's become, that was mostly Tywin Lannister's fault.
 

solarus

Member
Hmm? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought the thing where he talked with Illyrio was related to him wanting to get rid of Dany. No?
Varys only mentioned getting rid of dany in front of robert, which i suspect he had to as he wouldn't ever put himself at risk by questioning the king, as he said mentioned this episode- he has no one to protect him.

This is from the game of thrones wiki page for varys regarding the episode i mentioned.
Varys is overheard by Arya Stark (who is unable to identify him) conspiring with Magister Illyrio Mopatis of Pentos during a secret meeting. Varys and Illyrio want the realm plunged into civil war to facilitate the Dothraki invasion under Khal Drogo and thus the revival of House Targaryen. However, at a small council meeting Varys supports King Robert's proposal to assassinate Daenerys Targaryen.[11]

And here is the description of that scene from the wiki for the episode:
Arya is chasing cats in accordance with her sword training. She chases one into the dungeons under the castle, where she finds the great dragon skulls of the Targaryens in storage. She hears two men - Varys and Magister Illyrio Mopatis of Pentos - talking. Varys says that events have been set in motion and the lion and the wolf will soon be at each other's throats. War is almost upon the Seven Kingdoms, as they planned, but it has come too soon. Khal Drogo will not invade Westeros until his son is born and pronounced healthy, which is still many months away. Illyrio suggests assassinating Eddard to forestall the war, but Varys refuses.
 
Hmm? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought the thing where he talked with Illyrio was related to him wanting to get rid of Dany. No?

I can't remember if there was a later scene but my understanding of it was that he wanted Danaerys/Drogo/Viserys to invade successfully.

Rough transcription from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwJ52fiZ8JI

Varys: He's found one bastard already. He has the book. The rest will come.
Illyrio: And when he knows the truth what will he do?
Varys: The God's alone know. The fools tried to kill his son. What's worse, they botched it. The Wolf and the Lion will be at each other's throats. We will be at war soon, my friend.
Illyrio: What good is war now? We're not ready. If one Hand can die, why not a second?
Varys: This Hand is not the other.
Illyrio: We need time. Khal Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are.
Varys: "Delay," you say, "move fast", I reply. This is no longer a game for two players.
Illyrio: It never was.

EDIT: Bolded the most pertinent lines.

EDIT 2: I had forgotten later events (see below), please ignore my interpretation.
 

Nameless

Member
I can't remember if there was a later scene but my understanding of it was that he wanted Danaerys/Drogo/Viserys to invade successfully.

Rough transcription from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwJ52fiZ8JI

Varys: He's found one bastard already. He has the book. The rest will come.
Illyrio: And when he knows the truth what will he do?
Varys: The God's alone know. The fools tried to kill his son. What's worse, they botched it. The Wolf and the Lion will be at each other's throats. We will be at war soon, my friend.
Illyrio: What good is war now? We're not ready. If one Hand can die, why not a second?
Varys: This Hand is not the other.
Illyrio: We need time. Khal Drogo will not make his move until his son is born. You know how these savages are.
Varys: "Delay," you say, "move fast", I reply. This is no longer a game for two players.
Illyrio: It never was.

EDIT: Bolded the most pertinent lines.

I took this as Varys pretending to support Illyrio/The Targaryens as a means of keeping tabs and implanting Jorah within their ranks. If he wanted the Targaryens back in power why would he inform Robert of Dany/Viserys movements, that Jorah is spying for him, then move to have lDany killed?
 
The other thing hinted heavily on is Shae. Clearly she was taken to the tower (the whole "are you sure she left?" made it obvious), although what use she is to Tywin now that Tyrion is accused of more serious things I don't know. It does mean that Tyrion was betrayed by Bron. So now he has zero on his side, not even a sellsword to fight on his behalf.

Do we know this for sure? I took that exchange to mean she had gotten on a ship like Bronn said. I didn't at all get a sense that Bronn was lying or had betrayed Tyrion in any way. I'm curious if I missed something because I never thought she had been brought to the tower.
 
I took this as Varys pretending to support Illyrio/The Targaryens as a means of keeping tabs and implanting Jorah within their ranks. If he wanted the Targaryens back in power why would he inform Robert of Dany/Viserys movements, that Jorah is spying for him, then move to have her Dany killed?

Oh that would indeed make sense. I couldn't remember who planted Jorah (I knew he was involved with sending information back initially, but didn't know who it was to; Varys makes sense). I had assumed it was the opposite, that he was playing the Royal Council (going along with the plot to kill Danaerys to appease those above him) and sincere with Illyrio (or, perhaps, playing them both; what Varys wants other than security, if anything is hard to read). If he did indeed inform Robert of Jorah's position to Danaerys (I thought Robert was the one who brought up the threat of Danaerys, and wanting her assassinated, which Varys went along with to gain further security by appearing loyal and then citing a pardon for Jorah), I certainly rescind what I had thought and agree with you.
 
Which was natural. She never did the boy any harm.

I mostly dislike Caitlin because she acts on emotions rather than logic, (I guess Ned did as well), capturing Tyrion & letting Jaime go were both pretty bad moves, and you don't need hindsight to see that. I'll let her sister being a wacko go, because she couldn't have known that.

Jon Snow had a similar position to Theon, he never felt like part of the family. Caitlyn made sure to see that.
 

Nameless

Member
Oh that would indeed make sense. I couldn't remember who planted Jorah (I knew he was involved with sending information back initially, but didn't know who it was to; Varys makes sense). I had assumed it was the opposite, that he was playing the Royal Council and sincere with Illyrio (or, perhaps, playing them both; what Varys wants other than security, if anything is hard to read). If he did indeed inform Robert of Jorah, and Jorah was his spy, I certainly rescind what I had thought and agree with you.

I couldn't find the entire scene but:

http://youtu.be/YL9_w1yNCSc

The key line is from Ned: "You want to assassinate a girl, because a Spider heard a rumor?

Remember Robert rarely attended council meetings, but this news(from Varys) compels him to attend this one.

Earlier in the scene Varys tells the council of Jorah, who Ned condemns, describing him as a man who betrayed his honor and disgraced his family.
 

Nameless

Member
Here's a pretty telling quote by Varys about killing Dany which could easily be applied to Joffrey.

I understand your misgivings, my lord. Truly, I do. It is a terrible thing we must consider, a vile thing. Yet we who presume to rule must sometimes do vile things for the good of the realm.
 
I couldn't find the entire scene but:

http://youtu.be/YL9_w1yNCSc

The key line is from Ned: "You want to assassinate a girl, because a Spider heard a rumor?

Remember Robert rarely attended council meetings, but this news(from Varys) compels him to attend this one.

Earlier in the scene Varys tells the council of Jorah, who Ned condemns, describing him as a man who betrayed his honor and disgraced his family.

Oh yes, you're absolutely right, the bolded in particular would indicate that Varys was playing Illyrio at the very least (as why else would Varys indicate to Robert; Ned was most likely speculating as to the source, but it's never denied by Robert so presumably it's true).
 
Never said she didn't deserve to die. And of course the realm would be better off without her. My post was regarding how Lena has successfully conveyed emotional depth that extends beyond the cold, bitter woman we typically identify Cersei as. There have been plenty of scenes (like the ones Nameless and I have posted) that have served to make viewers understand why the character is the way she is and, similar to Tony Soprano, I think they do a good job of humanizing the monster.

Tony Soprano may have been a monster, but he had a code. Cerci does not. And I think she had human moments in season 1, but past that she's really just an awful, awful person who snaps at EVERYONE around here. Again, that scene at the wedding was telling. The only people laughing at the dwarf fight was Cerci and Joffrey.
 

Curufinwe

Member
Is HBO GO supposed to save your progress like NetFlix does? Whenever I go back to a show I've been watching on the PS3 I have to start from the beginning.
 

Nameless

Member
Oh definitely! You have to look past the different upbringing element.

Both young women when they were bethrothed to get married:

  • Cersei to Robert Baratheon
  • Sansa to Joffrey Baratheon/Lannister

Both "loved" the man they were supposed to marry, prior to getting to know them:

  • Robert crawls onto Cersei drunk on their wedding night and calls her Lyanna (Stark), shatters her expectations
  • Joffrey is a sociopath who repeatedly mistreats and abuses Sansa, again shatters her expectations when she thought she was getting Prince Charming

Both naive prior to getting thrown into an extremely male-dominated world of politics. Cersei definitely sees herself in Sansa, watch back all of their scenes together. She takes pleasure in both degrading and teaching Sansa the ways of being a woman.

Great post! People can hate her but it's hard to deny the density of the character and performance.


Hahaha, it's widly known Lannisters shit gold

ieq4OsCqc8i7m.gif


Oh yes, you're absolutely right, the bolded in particular would indicate that Varys was playing Illyrio at the very least (as why else would Varys indicate to Robert; Ned was most likely speculating as to the source, but it's never denied by Robert so presumably it's true).

I'm pretty sure we see Varys present the information to the council. Also Varys trys to prevent war from breaking out, convincing Ned to confess to that end. So yeah, he's blowing a bunch of smoke up Illyrio's ass to remain in the know.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
Is HBO GO supposed to save your progress like NetFlix does? Whenever I go back to a show I've been watching on the PS3 I have to start from the beginning.

Sometimes it's does. It's supposed to, but it only seems to work about half the time in my experience.
 

effzee

Member
I took this as Varys pretending to support Illyrio/The Targaryens as a means of keeping tabs and implanting Jorah within their ranks. If he wanted the Targaryens back in power why would he inform Robert of Dany/Viserys movements, that Jorah is spying for him, then move to have lDany killed?

Man I completely forgot about this exchange so long ago.

What do we know about IIyrio? From my memory he helps Danny's brother set up the meeting with the Dothraki to start that partnership. Was he instrumental in anything else?

And I am assuming up till now we know not the real intentions of Varys and who he wants in power or not. The only thing we know for sure is that he will try to protect himself above all.

Is it implied that he was somehow also behind the death of the Hand before Ned? Or was that simply the work of Cersei and Jaime? I ask because how else would he be behind the plan to start a war? And why? How would getting the Targaryens back be beneficial to him?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I couldn't disagree more about her being one dimensional, though. Headey has range for days, months even.
I agree, I really like her performance. I didn't like her much at first, but she grew on me. One of those moments where I really liked her performance was very brief, but very powerful: in S1, when Robert was dying, she has this fake grief/concern face and says "Robert, my sweet --" until she's interrupted and told to GTFO. The hypocritical fake concern face was absolutely perfect, I thought. It might seem like a minor throwaway line but it sold me on Lena right there.

The other awesome performance was during S2, Blackwater. Drunk Cersei talking to Sansa... oh boy, she absolutely nailed it. So good. Heady had grown on me slightly before that, but she was cemented as awesome in my book with that scene.
 
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