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[Nameless]

I challenge this idea, that by having Sansa raped the show was "subverting expectations."

Rape is the name of the game in this show. Torturing Sansa has also been the name of the game since halfway through season 1. The scene played right into the cycle that Sansa's been spinning in almost since she was introduced. The rape scene was infuriating and an example of terrible storytelling because it was gratuitous and unnecessary and kicked Sansa's arc in the balls, not because it was unexpected. GoT fell into a trap almost worse than being over-the-top last night: it fell into the trap of being utterly and disappointingly predictable.

The only way to argue that this scene subverted expectations is to build a point around the fact that Sansa was almost raped once before, and so this is somehow "coming full circle" or something, and that alone is problematic as hell.

This show does not subvert expectations. There will never again be another Red Wedding.

There's nothing to challenge; that's what they were doing. Subverting expectations doesn't mean the audience has no inkling whatsoever of a potential outcome. It's a narrative device. Littlefinger's speeches and pep talks about Sansa getting revenge and using her womanly powers of persuasion to control Ramsay. That cutting stare and half smirk she gives him when Roose drops the baby bomb. Her fearless & defiant response to Myranda trying to rattle her with tales of Ramsay's long history of violence against women. These instances coupled with the character's recent progression were intended to make the audience believe she had a good chance of overcoming the odds, not that there weren't any.

Clearly it worked; your opinion that they "kicked Sansa's arc in the balls" doesn't track unless you had some....expectation...on where that arc was headed based on what we've seen. Not that it tracks anyway given you have no idea what happens going forward.

 

[Josh5890]

Finally caught up with this week's episode. I breezed through the comments in this thread when the show was first airing and I agreed with most of the sentiment.

I honestly think Tommen has no idea what being the King means. No King, real of fictional, would allow their wife and Queen to be thrown in jail. I feel bad for him because he was thrown into the throne, which was a bad situation to begin with. He is better off if someone takes over the kingdom and exiles him out of Westeros.

I feel like Arya's lin ei sdragging but I'm hopping that is the point and it will be rewarding in the end.

Littlefinger is going to be the ruler of the Earth one day.

I am still betting all my chips that Theon (Reek) pulls an

Spoiler

Alec Guiness

from Bridge on the River Kwai. His days have to be numbered but if he doesn't do anything good before he crokes then to hell with him.

As for the final season, I thought Sansa was going to kill Ramsy. Then I thought Theon was going to do something. Unless this season ends with Sansa cutting Ramsy's throat that scene will be easily one of the worst in the show's history.

 

[Little Old Man]

I'll opt for Brienne. There has to be a lit candle in the tower at some point, otherwise it was a waste of dialogue.

Definite possibility, though I see her going for Roose, after his direct betrayal of Lady Catelyn and Robb.

Indeed. She has alienated her uncle, the small council is all but dissolved, Little Finger is running rampant, Twyin dead means former allies have turned upon them, ties with the Tyrells are being severed faster than you can say Tommen, she's made her son weak and feeble, Jaime is gone, and the faith militant are an uncontrollable entity. In her attempt to create a more direct line of power she has went against everything Twywin worked for.

 

[Rur0ni]

In a show where children are hanged, burned, staked as sign posts, people are flayed, decapitated, heads crushed, generally murdered and abused, pregnant women are fed to dogs and stabbed to death in the belly... we're hand wringing that an off screen rape is shock value and adds nothing to the story. And this is just the stuff that they take the time to film. Get a grip. I reject this notion that matters of sexual assault are where we draw the line because of the ugliness and reality of it, that more people can identify with sexual assault than people being flayed or children staked and burned. Bring it to the front.

By the way, since it was brought up. The rape scene in the final season of Spartacus was more violent and wasn't exactly off screen.

Spoiler

But maybe because it was a "bad" character, and a man no less, it was instead funny and "haha".

Arguably spontaneous and unexpected un-like consummation (rape or otherwise) of a marriage in this universe. Sansa may or may not get her chance at revenge, and if so it will be all the more satisfying because of that scene.

Non-rape talk: I enjoyed the Arya scenes this episode. I do wonder if she's going to become "no one", and that the Stark part of her will be gone forever.

 

[EmSeta]

Glad to see I wasn't alone in being bothered by the rape scene. It's tiresome how they're just using Sansa as a one dimensional punching bag at this point.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Yeah, the Sand Snake women are fucking whack... oh well.

And as for the rape scene; I don't see any problems there. I'm fine with it. That scene was hard as hell to watch so I get why folks are catching feelings and wishing it didn't happen, and/or feel it's without merit or whatever. I'm personally perfectly fine with it.

 

[Simplet]

Yeah I don't understand the problem with the Sansa rape? Of course it was "expected", it was so expected that I don't really see how they could have done away with the scene.

As soon as Sansa was to marry that dude, everyone knew it was going to end up like this, her character also knew it. It's just part of the normal development of the story. Where they supposed to not show the scene and imply it somehow? That would have been really lame.

 

[Ferrio]

Glad to see I wasn't alone in being bothered by the rape scene. It's tiresome how they're just using Sansa as a one dimensional punching bag at this point.

Think you're selling Sansa short if you're calling her one dimensional.

 

[Apt101]

Think you're selling Sansa short if you're calling her one dimensional.

They haven't given the character a chance to assert herself. We know she's a Stark and is tough. But all she's been so far is at best an unwilling pawn.

I feel like this show has been spinning its wheels on its strongest characters for the past 10-ish episodes. Fucking let them loose, let things happen.

 

[Nameless]

Also unless I've been watching a different show, Sansa hadn't really been tormented in King's Landing since early in S2, and at its worst, her time there was no where near as bad as what's she's facing with the Boltons. That's where I think we''ll get the payoff -- she's in the worst situation of her life but now has the strength and confidence to face it head on.

 

[Rur0ni]

Also unless I've been watching a different show, Sansa hadn't really been tormented in King's Landing since early in S2, and at its worst, her time there was no where near as bad as what's she's facing with the Boltons. That's where I think we''ll get the payoff -- she's in the worst situation of her life but now has the strength and confidence to face it head on.

^

 

[Josh5890]

Also unless I've been watching a different show, Sansa hadn't really been tormented in King's Landing since early in S2, and at its worst, her time there was no where near as bad as what's she's facing with the Boltons. That's where I think we''ll get the payoff -- she's in the worst situation of her life but now has the strength and confidence to face it head on.

She also lost her mother and brother at the Red Wedding (plus she believes that her two youngest brothers are dead as well).

I sincerely hope there is a great payoff for Sansa. There is no other character that I am openly rooting for more than other character. If Sansa dies with no revenge or retribution then this show loses most of the respect I have for it.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Next episode - cold opening, Theon stabs Ramsay in the back, he dies.

Spoiler

a man can hope.

 

[Josh5890]

Next episode - cold opening, Theon stabs Ramsay in the back, he dies.

Spoiler

a man can hope.

I think that since Ramsy is still living after this episode he is going to be around for the battle against Stannis, whenever that is.

 

[Overdoziz]

Ramsay will claim the Iron Throne.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Yeah I don't understand the problem with the Sansa rape? Of course it was "expected", it was so expected that I don't really see how they could have done away with the scene.

As soon as Sansa was to marry that dude, everyone knew it was going to end up like this, her character also knew it. It's just part of the normal development of the story. Where they supposed to not show the scene and imply it somehow? That would have been really lame.

My problem is with the whole purpose of Sansa being with Roose in the first place...I suppose he is trying to keep on the good side of the Lannisters...although they are in a terrible state. He could have just spread rumours that she was with Roose and that could have had the same effect of having him shorn from the Lannisters, given Cersei didnt require any actual proof. Putting Sansa in with the most depraved characters in an obvious plot device designed for shock value. So instead of her finally developing as a character to take hold of her life, as is occuring in the books, we have a character who is simply forced to act through more shocks and circumstance. Given what we know of Sansa, putting her in with them for 'revenge' is laughable. The idea that LF, one of the most informed characters in the series wouldnt know of the reputation of someone like Ramsay, who is hardly discrete, is also rather implausible. I find the whole scenario implausible and stupid, precisely because Sansa is incredibly ill equipped to undermine the other characters. Although that is probably how she will do it...'no one ever expected the little maid...'

 

[Vagabundo]

That last scene. Urgh. My wife was shouting at the screen.

In someways it was similar to the red wedding. There is only so much brutality you can watch your characters go through. Even a revenge payoff won't be enough to wipe out Ramsey. He's a more brutal form of Joffery.

My wife is considering whether to continue watching or not.

Cersai is devising a trap of her own design. She is weakening the throne. Undermining the king. Isolating herself from allies and trusting the wrong people.

Little finger is a fucker, but he's growing on me again. So far he hasn't fucked up and has been able to improvise well.

"Cock merchants" ha. Best bit of the show.

 

[Zaptruder]

Fuckkk. This episode had me on edge.

You just can't like anyone in this show. Or they'll die.

The slavers found Tyrion and Mormont.. and I though, fuck... GRRM might be fucked in the head enough to kill him then and there.

And then they put Loris and Margery on trial, and I was all... fuckkk they're probably gonna get killed here by this crazy inquisition! And they might even kill the grandma too, just to complete the toppling of the house.

But I don't actually like Sansa funnily enough.

And you know... I'm not sure what else you'd be expecting in that situation if you were her - somehow you'd get out of consumation with that evil dipshit... because your first husband didn't touch you?

Would've shown more steel if she had mentally prepared herself for that before it happened. As it stands... it kinda shows that she's still unprepared to do the kind of things that will need to be done to dig herself out of this hole - still a naieve pawn been played by other players of the game.

 

[tcrunch]

Ramsay will claim the Iron Throne.

.

 

[Alpende]

Agreed on people saying the Sand Snakes are shitty. Their first introduction was weird but I still thought they'd redeem them somehow and then they come up with.... what they did. Very odd.

Ramsay is an asshole and I hope Stannis the Boss deals with him. I really like the Margaery, Lloras plotline, Cersei is playing her cards and so far it's working. Also, it's cool to see Adebisi in this show.

 

[C4Lukins]

I thought that Jaime's mission was meant to be stupid? Isn't it a ploy by Cersei to get rid him out of King's Landing so she can run things the way she wants to?

I don't think so. I believe she is legit concerned for her daughter. The one consistent thing about Cersei is her love for her children.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Dorne is such a trainwreck. The combination of a new but not very distinctive setting, two well known actors having tiny bits so you just see Dr. Bashir and Mr. Eko, a recast Mycella surrounded by new characters and general amateur hour fight staging just makes it stand out so badly.

 

[SkylineRKR]

The Ramsay actor is doing a great job. He's one of the highlights in this season next to Cers and Petyr, the rest is pretty mediocre imho. Bad writing, choreographics.. the series pretty much stopped after season 3. With some good eps in 4.

 

[half a moon]

She had to of been prepared to have sex with Joffrey, Tyrion, and Ramsey. Unless she thought she could say no. I don't think she did. Tyrion's kindness was a pleasant surprise to her. The question is was him having Reek watch predictable?

 

[Crispy75]

Maybe the DOrne parts were filmed by a second unit director or something? They just fall so flat. Only Bronn's quips make it bearable.

 

[nelsonroyale]

She had to of been prepared to have sex with Joffrey, Tyrion, and Ramsey. Unless she thought she could say no. I don't think she did. Tyrion's kindness was a pleasant surprise to her. The question is was him having Reek watch predictable?

She never seemed particulalry prepared...more like passive. She was prepared to have a romantic courtship with her 'dashing prince'. Something she expected with Joffrey...she wasn't prepared for what she actually got. She is still an innocent girl. The whole thing about her developing a manipulative persona hasn't really borne out in the series.

As for being a pawn, I would say she is more naive and innocent in a cynical world. The Sansa in the books is even more so, but at least she begins to develop. I have seen next to nothing here.

 

[Cilla]

It still amazes me that five seasons in.. People still whinge about scenes in GoT.

It would have been odd if anything other than Sansa rape happened and I love her as a character. I can't wait to see her get revenge.

 

[FeD.nL]

It still amazes me that five seasons in.. People still whinge about scenes in GoT.

It would have been odd if anything other than Sansa rape happened and I love her as a character. I can't wait to see her get revenge.

 

[Vashetti]

 

[KooopaKid]

Yeah, the entire point of that scene was that it was a kangaroo court. The Tyrell's never had a chance.

Why arrest Queen Margaery as well? "To the best of her knowledge" she didn't know anything. What was the strategical interest for Cercei to arrest them? It's a stupid move that's obviously going to bite her in the ass.

BTW, if Stannis lose the Winterfell battle it's going to be ridiculous, Theon managed to take the city with 20 men...

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Why arrest Queen Margaery as well? "To the best of her knowledge" she didn't know anything. What was the strategical interest for Cercei to arrest them? It's a stupid move that's obviously going to bite her in the ass.

BTW, if Stannis lose the Winterfell battle it's going to be ridiculous, Theon managed to take the city with 20 men...

They didn't know Theon was coming and he snuk into the city with hooks and ropes and he drew out all of the remaining few soldiers defending Winterfell. I'd imagine Roose has his troops ready and he knows Stannis is coming.

 

[Vashetti]

Why arrest Queen Margaery as well? "To the best of her knowledge" she didn't know anything. What was the strategical interest for Cercei to arrest them? It's a stupid move that's obviously going to bite her in the ass.

BTW, if Stannis lose the Winterfell battle it's going to be ridiculous, Theon managed to take the city with 20 men...

Because Robb took the vast majority of the Stark force south. Then, Bran sent what was left to support the local area.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

This fucking Olyvar. Fuck this guy. Could be Littlefingers son.

 

[KooopaKid]

Because Robb took the vast majority of the Stark force south. Then, Bran sent what was left to support the local area.

I don't buy there wasn't even 40 guards to protect the city. Oh well.

 

[Tainted]

Fuck I miss Tywin. I know he orchestrated the Red Wedding and was ready to kill off Tyrion...but damn, he knew how to play the game.

Charles Dance just played his character so well.

 

[C4Lukins]

What a slow episode. Nothing but this happened.

Arya, still crazy with vengeance is cleaning a corpse.

Arya is lied to by fellow cult member in a game.

We realize that part of being a faceless dude is the ability to lie about your past

Arya is woken up by faceless dude, they play a lying game where he punishes her each time she lies

Arya sucks at lying

We learn that she did not hate the hound and feels guilt

We learn that Arya does not want to be faceless

I could keep going, but you learned more about a character in the first ten minutes then you do in entire seasons of shows.

Now to super speed what happens over the course of a 50 minute episode.

Jorah learns of the death of his father, and why Tyrion has crossed the ocean to visit the queen of dragons.

Arya kills a young girl out of mercy and learns to lie about her past.

The faceless man takes Arya into a giant hall full of faces where she learns the nature of all the corpse preperation she has been doing.

It is revealed that Arya does not want to be one of these faceless people, but she does want to become someone new.

Tyrion and Jorah are captured by slave traders.

Tyrion saves his own life by convincing them that his cock is worthless without proof of life, and he convinces them that Jorah would be worth a ton of money in the pits as a great warrior.

We also learn that cock merchants are a thing

Little finger arrives at Kings a Landing, is confronted by the religious cult, and name drops himself out of it.




Well that all happened in the first 25 minutes.

The sand snakes and Jamie battled and were captured.

Cersei managed to get the Queen arrested by the creepsters, while blindsiding Ollena Tyrell.

Littlefinnger convinced Cersei to make him the ward of the North after he defeats the remnants of Stannis and the Boltons. Oh and he made her hate the Boltons.

Sansa makes Ramsey's ex her bitch.

Sansa marries Ramsey.

Ramsey rapes Sansa while forcing Theon to watch.

So really nothing happened that episode.

So super slow and uneventful.

Oh yeah Oberyns wife was arrested, but that was so minor It did not make the cut.

 

[Garou]

What's the problem with the last scene? She married him ("I take this man"), kissed her husband in their chambers, started undressing on her own and didn't say "no" once. He should have been a little bit gentler I guess, but maybe she starts to like it and will demand crazy threesomes with the other girl!

Spoiler

I am only half-kidding.

 

[Overdoziz]

What a slow episode. Nothing but this happened.

Arya, still crazy with vengeance is cleaning a corpse.

Arya is lied to by fellow cult member in a game.

We realize that part of being a faceless dude is the ability to lie about your past

Arya is woken up by faceless dude, they play a lying game where he punishes her each time she lies

Arya sucks at lying

We learn that she did not hate the hound and feels guilt

We learn that Arya does not want to be faceless

I could keep going, but you learned more about a character in the first ten minutes then you do in entire seasons of shows.

Now to super speed what happens over the course of a 50 minute episode.

Jorah learns of the death of his father, and why Tyrion has crossed the ocean to visit the queen of dragons.

Arya kills a young girl out of mercy and learns to lie about her past.

The faceless man takes Arya into a giant hall full of faces where she learns the nature of all the corpse preperation she has been doing.

It is revealed that Arya does not want to be one of these faceless people, but she does want to become someone new.

Tyrion and Jorah are captured by slave traders.

Tyrion saves his own life by convincing them that his cock is worthless without proof of life, and he convinces them that Jorah would be worth a ton of money in the pits as a great warrior.

We also learn that cock merchants are a thing

Little finger arrives at Kings a Landing, is confronted by the religious cult, and name drops himself out of it.




Well that all happened in the first 25 minutes.

The sand snakes and Jamie battled and were captured.

Cersei managed to get the Queen arrested by the creepsters, while blindsiding Ollena Tyrell.

Littlefinnger convinced Cersei to make him the ward of the North after he defeats the remnants of Stannis and the Boltons. Oh and he made her hate the Boltons.

Sansa makes Ramsey's ex her bitch.

Sansa marries Ramsey.

Ramsey rapes Sansa while forcing Theon to watch.

So really nothing happened that episode.

So super slow and uneventful.

Oh yeah Oberyns wife was arrested, but that was so minor It did not make the cut.

slow as a turtle

 

[Evil_Silver]

Ramsay will claim the Iron Throne.

I really hope that doesn't happen. But knowing this show...sigh

 

[komplanen]

What a slow season it has been so far. Must be some epic ending they're building towards, I guess...

 

[Dryk]

If there weren't enough reasons to hate the last scene of this episode, it's completely overshadowed how amazing that wedding dress was

Ramsey's also unnervingly clever....

(Don't know if this is a spoiler, it's not book related, but I'll tag it just to be safe)

Spoiler

Like, ever since someone told me of the theory that the old lady and the candle might be one of Ramsey's infamous traps, I'm hoping against hope that Sansa never attempts to light it.

That's sort of what I was getting at. Ramsay is waaaay more scary than Joffrey when you think about because the lack of power is really all that's holding him back. I'm sure he'll slip up and get killed eventually, cracks were starting to show last week when he was talking about the baby. On the whole though, he has a much better idea of what he's doing than Joffrey ever did.

 

[Prine]

Glad to see I wasn't alone in being bothered by the rape scene. It's tiresome how they're just using Sansa as a one dimensional punching bag at this point.

I think its better for her to end herself, what a horrific life she's lived since the execution of her father. Really see no way out for her, she doesn't have the nous to play people or the strength (like Arya) to fight back. Like you said, a prestigious punching bag.

 

[Evil_Silver]

I think its better for her to end herself, what a horrific life she's lived since the execution of her father. Really see no way out for her, she doesn't have the nous to play people or the strength (like Arya) to fight back. Like you said, a prestigious punching bag.

I think a North uprising is coming. The North Remembers. Sansa will be their inspiration...I hope.

 

[diggmcbadass]

Am I the only one excited about Adebisi joining the cast?

Though this show might be too family friendly for him.

 

[MikeyB]

I was just thinking that the show needed more characters and storylines.

 

[GIANKRATOS]

I hope Theon says to Sansa that he didn't kill her brothers

 

[diggmcbadass]

I was just thinking that the show needed more characters and storylines.

I doubt a random slaver will stay for more than two episodes, but I love the actor from Oz (possibly the only show where characters are put through more shit than GoT, and his character in that show would make King Joffrey seem kind.)

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Am I the only one excited about Adebisi joining the cast?


Though this show might be too family friendly for him.

LOL

My wife squeeled when she saw it was him, Adebisi is one of her all time favourite TV show characters so she is always excited to see him arrive

 

[C4Lukins]

slow as a turtle

I can understand people criticizing the quality of the show. But to call it slow.... What shows are they watching?

 

[GoonerTRON]

Was hoping Theon would snap at the end...

Probably one of the most depressing fades to black.