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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK SPOILERS* |OT| Season 5 - Sundays on HBO [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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IAmRandom31
Banned
yeah ive been curious about that this these past few weeks. What was Ja'qen in a cage in Season 2 to begin with? I dont think they ever explained that.
I have to assume a bad end is coming for Ramsey, and if it's the direct result of overplaying his hand and finally pushing Reek too far rather than just coming out of the blue then that's good writing to me.
Like Robb, Ramsey is ignoring Roose's advice at pretty much every turn.
Like Robb, Ramsey is ignoring Roose's advice at pretty much every turn.
Nameless
Member
Listening to Cast of Kings. I knew Joanna Robinson would have a problem with the scene; she's spoken out against the usage of rape on the show in the past, as is generally protective over her favorite characters, but holy shit. She's fighting back tears while Dave walks on eggshells trying to unpack it fully. Pretty tense listen.
nelsonroyale
Member
And she has no personal connection with those 'allies' that we have seen yet, none of them protecting her back and she has no family or resources to call upon. Really, she is in a weak position. Sure something will be engineered to get her out of it, but she had much better, more stable prospects in the Vale building her guile and forces. The Boltons are fucked in the long run anyway. Hated by everyone pretty much and bigger forces are coming. Given how treacherous they are I can't see any of the big powers trusting them aside from the doomed lanisters...
catpurrcat
Member
moltonasty
Member
This is one of the main problems with how they insist on always killing off major characters. It's like the show is always "rebooting" in a sense. It can't be easy constantly finding new formulas and new characters to focus on for a show,you gotta give them credit for that at least. Though yeah, this season has been lackluster for me so far.
I think it's an unfair brush to paint the show with when they've gone out of their way in the past to have major female characters avoid that fate even when it strained the credibility of the storytelling and fell into cliche. Jaime saving Brienne with his made up story stands out in that regard. Like her allegedly super rich father wouldn't have paid the same ransom whether she had been raped or not. And then the conveniently timed rescues of Sansa and Meera.
Cersei and Jaime wasn't handled well since it came across to most people as rape but it apparently wasn't supposed to be, and Cersei didn't seem to think it was. That was kind of a mess. But the two noble women having to have sex with their husbands on the night of their weddings is not something the show should be beaten up over. The whole world is built around arranged marriages of that nature. Cersei was forced to have sex with a husband who didn't love her and called her his dead lover's name, and she retaliated by giving him three incest bastards instead of any real heirs.
Winterfell is supposed to be a very hard castle to take by force. Ramsey only took it from Theon by having his own men mutiny on him. Stannis is probably going to need some help from within Winterfell in order to be successful. That's my guess for where we are headed, anyway.
ComputerBlue
Member
I think that's partly what keeps it interesting, the fact that we keep getting introduced to new characters and the show keeps rebooting, perhaps the reason why some people feel this season is lacking because there really are no new substantial characters. There are some minor ones, but every story we're following right now comes from characters that have been around for quite a while. Most from the very first season.
I'm starting to feel this.
the sons of the harpy was boring as shit and this stupid story line with the queen using these religious fanatics as a private army is just as shit.
They? The TV writers? You mean GRRM. Granted the TV series is straying from the novels in parts, major character deaths were written by the story's creator himself. He's had a vision on how it ends and who ends up where and he is determining more or less how the major story arcs are played out. The show is still following a script and not rebooting.
The thing is that in the past I don't think it's really "rebooted" fully. Usually while one character dies or something happens, another character has hit a nice plot point. That's what people keep coming back to. The problem is that at this point almost everything is being rebooted all together. Of the characters that haven't died, it seems most of them are starting anew with much slower stories. Jon snow and Tyrion's arcs for example are pretty well done. Yes, things will probably happen to them at some point, but the more interesting arc of Jon going through all those things before becoming knight commander is done. Tyrion's arc of rising to power, being very good at it, then being torn down is done.
I think where we are in the story would be much better if Dany was on the rails by now. Basically she's still over there being kind of a shit ruler. If instead she had been a shit ruler last season and then this season really started to turn things around visibly. If she got Drogon back right now, and really seemed promising, we'd all be exciting. Why? Because her arc is coming to something and then Tyrion would be there. Then in that last episode we'd be like "Fuck yeah!" when Jorah is talking about Dany. We'd be ecstatic about her meeting Tyrion. Instead I'm just exhausted.
Before GoT there was OZ
The only thing missing was his hat.
We need more of the Boltons. Ramsay is my favorite right now, can't wait to see him wreck Stannis. He ran through those soft iron born chumps with a smile on his face.
ComputerBlue
Member
Stannis is no soft iron born chump though, dude is a general with a massive army behind him, and potentially the wildlings. Boltons are done for.
To me, it's almost like, the inciting incident of the first season is like spilling a cup of milk.
Okay they split the milk, and in trying to get that cup back into a jug, they spill the jug... then they spill the crate... this is a show, that keeps branching out, and unless it sticks a satisfying ending (not necessarily a "all the good guys win!"), that all this will just be for nothing.
Have we seen Theon's sister this season? I can't remember for the life of me if we have...
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The issue is that the writers keep putting women in the situation where they either might be raped, or are raped, or there's a threat of rape. Whether it's plausible or expected at any point isn't the issue, it's the fact that the situations keep being set up that way.
It's hackneyed, and it really hurts the show a lot.
The Lamonster
Member
That's hilarious! re: the 'disgusting' rape...I wonder if she's ever watched any other episode of this show ever, like when the guy's head exploded from a rock falling on it or when the baby got turned to ice or when the guy was burned alive or when the kid got poisoned or when the pregnant woman gave birth to a murderous shadow creature or when the guy's penis got cut off
DXLelouch153
Banned
if that was my wife id of ordered the guards to beat the shit outta those pychopathic zealots
kid needs to grow a pair
kid needs to grow a pair
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
No, last time we saw her she ran away from some dags
So you want Game of Thrones without anyone ever being stuck in an arranged marriage, and where only men ever get captured by enemy forces or criminals.
like the bedroom after a wedding?
or next to a dead son's coffin?
those are situations to set up rape?
RyanardoDaVinci
Member
If Theon ever kills Ramsay, I hope he does it with the horn Ramsay was trolling him with.
Pretty sure they already stated that scene was not meant to come across as rape.
Stick it all the way down his throat till he chokes to death making muffled horn blowing sounds/death gurgles? Sounds good to me.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Any bets that sharp-hip girl that ramsey beds is going to do something completely crazy before this season is over? They've shown her too much to Boba Fett her, they have to be building up to some Sansa/Sharp-Hip battle of the womens. Maybe Theon and Ramsey also fighting, a tag team conflict of epic proportions.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I want one with considerably less of it, and not for hackneyed storytelling like we're getting.
And I want one where there isn't a need to turn it up to 11 like was done here.
There's no reason an arranged marriage has to include forcing somebody to watch, or doing it in a brutal manner.
They failed pretty hard there.
I like the show, but it has some fucked up ideas about sex and they detract from the story most of the time.
Finally caught up.
The finale was spoilered by internet dumbasses who can't have the decency to spoiler things properly, but whatever, it was an obvious outcome.
This season is pretty boring so far, but there were a couple of moments in this episode that give me hope, namely: The slavers capturing Jorah and Tyrion, and the prospect of the fighting pits rendering Daenerys' plotline finally more interesting.
And Arya's development, which has been stalling for half a season now, at least was cool to look at (the huge room with all the faces).
The Dorne fight was some Hercules level production, hilariously bad, and the three ladies are abysmal, especially the one with the spear, lol.
The religious trial feels like it came out of nowhere for me, there was religion before in the story, but suddenly it's such a big deal politically, and everyone just accepts it? Are a couple of monks with some maces really that intimidating?
The rape scene at the end made logical sense for the trajectory the story had taken, some people seemed to think Sansa had become some master con-artist or whatever, 'cause she told one lie, but she was still obviously a very naive person bounced around by events and people bigger than her.
What annoyed me was yet another scene with Ramsey being as 1 dimensional as possible, he's like Joffrey 2.0 only, possibly, even flatter of a character: YEAH HE'S EVIL AND TWISTED I GET IT.
In general this season its spinning its wheels in place like crazy, and no shocking scene in the remaining 4 will change that, i think, no matter who they kill off.
The finale was spoilered by internet dumbasses who can't have the decency to spoiler things properly, but whatever, it was an obvious outcome.
This season is pretty boring so far, but there were a couple of moments in this episode that give me hope, namely: The slavers capturing Jorah and Tyrion, and the prospect of the fighting pits rendering Daenerys' plotline finally more interesting.
And Arya's development, which has been stalling for half a season now, at least was cool to look at (the huge room with all the faces).
The Dorne fight was some Hercules level production, hilariously bad, and the three ladies are abysmal, especially the one with the spear, lol.
The religious trial feels like it came out of nowhere for me, there was religion before in the story, but suddenly it's such a big deal politically, and everyone just accepts it? Are a couple of monks with some maces really that intimidating?
The rape scene at the end made logical sense for the trajectory the story had taken, some people seemed to think Sansa had become some master con-artist or whatever, 'cause she told one lie, but she was still obviously a very naive person bounced around by events and people bigger than her.
What annoyed me was yet another scene with Ramsey being as 1 dimensional as possible, he's like Joffrey 2.0 only, possibly, even flatter of a character: YEAH HE'S EVIL AND TWISTED I GET IT.
In general this season its spinning its wheels in place like crazy, and no shocking scene in the remaining 4 will change that, i think, no matter who they kill off.
ComputerBlue
Member
What about when Slynt got his head chopped off a few episodes ago, why didn't that bother the masses? Because he was a piece of shit and deserved to die?
On screen beheading full of gore and blood is fine as long as it's to a character we hate, but off screen rape is taking it a notch too far.
Both are fucked, neither should be glorified, but it makes me wonder what type of people are those who are completely fine with that, but not with this. Mass slaughter, cool. Kill a puppy, burn them!
Not attacking you personally, just a generalization of the collective outrage from people over this scene compared to many others.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
When violence happens to a character we sympathize with or identify with, it has a bigger impact. When it happens unjustly, even moreso. My issue is not that violence happens in Westeros (as it has from the very start of the first episode) it's when it's gratuitously amplified for seemingly little reason.
It's poor storytelling, leaning on shock.
Anyway, I said my piece. The show has been losing its way this season, and this is just one piece of that. I hope it bounces back, it's been one of my favorites-- but that was probably the worst episode of the whole series.
It wasn't gratuitously amplified. In wasn't even shown on screen, unlike the wedding night rape in the first episode where Daenerys is visibly upset and terrified.
ComputerBlue
Member
Could be, but we don't know that yet. I think we shouldn't pass that judgement until the next episode or two. If, in the end there was no point to it, then I'll agree that it was absolutely pointless to show it, until then though why bother arguing something we don't know the outcome of. It ended rather abruptly.
This is a good comparison of scenes to demonstrate why the scene with Sansa was bad and the scene with Slynt was good.
The scene with Slynt furthers Jon's character arc and shows how he's taking control now. He's the commander, and that's how the show is portraying that. That was good.
Sansa's scene was bad not because it was rape, but because it was a device used over and over again now on a character whose arc doesn't need and shouldn't have such a thing. None of the characters in that scene needed that scene to happen. We've seen Theon tortured to fucking hell, so if that scene was his turning point, I think it's needless. The turning point could happen at the threat of that, for instance. We already know Ramsay is a terrible terrible asshole. This scene does nothing to further his arc. The scene also sidesteps Sansa's arc, too. You see, no one is going anywhere because of that. It shouldn't have happened because it's bad writing. It's repeating shit that we've already seen.
The outrage is that instead of leaning on good writing, after that episode, people are very sure that the writers are just leaning on shock value. They think their writing is good because of shock value.
That's why I think we're seeing a different sort of outrage now for this than we have in the past when Ned died or when the red wedding happened, etc. That was against our favorite characters, but man oh man did that make for good TV and some interesting writing. Now? Not so much.
ComputerBlue
Member
I can definitely get behind this, and I agree with it. It's also shown me a side of the argument that I hadn't though of.
But, I will also add that we still don't know the reason for it as it ended so quickly, there very well might be reason as to why it happened.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I'm talking about the overall show.
Having random background characters killed is one thing, having a main character raped while another is forced to watch is cranking it up.
Yeah, they could have cranked it up further by showing it! But doing that to a main character, and one of the most innocent ones, that's what I am talking about. It comes off schlocky.
The Red Wedding was also cranking it way, way up, but that's also an event that caused the entire story to do a 180, for virtually every character (apart from Essos, I guess). Ned Stark's beheading was another. Jamie losing a hand was another. Those were plot and character moments that paid off.
Cersei being raped by Jamie didn't. It was gratuitous. And this was worse.
I may be wrong, and there may be a payoff here, but I missing how it was necessary to go to this length. The Boltons already murdered her family, it's not like she needed a revenge motive.
EDIT: RDreamer nailed it. It's not the rape, it's the seemingly needlessness of it. The showrunners have lost my trust.
Having random background characters killed is one thing, having a main character raped while another is forced to watch is cranking it up.
Yeah, they could have cranked it up further by showing it! But doing that to a main character, and one of the most innocent ones, that's what I am talking about. It comes off schlocky.
The Red Wedding was also cranking it way, way up, but that's also an event that caused the entire story to do a 180, for virtually every character (apart from Essos, I guess). Ned Stark's beheading was another. Jamie losing a hand was another. Those were plot and character moments that paid off.
Cersei being raped by Jamie didn't. It was gratuitous. And this was worse.
I may be wrong, and there may be a payoff here, but I missing how it was necessary to go to this length. The Boltons already murdered her family, it's not like she needed a revenge motive.
EDIT: RDreamer nailed it. It's not the rape, it's the seemingly needlessness of it. The showrunners have lost my trust.
I haven't heard a peep about Theon getting raped. This controversy exists simply because it's Sansa.
The Ramsey-Sansa marriage being consumated was not shocking.
You're right. It isn't, because the same shit has been happening to Sansa since season one. And Ramsey's been doing the same shit since he's been introduced.
That's part of the problem.
Rape is still very much shocking to see, and rape of a character we've practically seen growing up is shocking, too. It's still shock value. It's just bad, because it's the same shit we've been seeing. No one's arc has changed in too long.
For me that scene was important toward Sansa because for to long she was following "orders". She didn't even took the chance that the granny told her to do (light a candle in X tower so you will ger some help). Sansa never dared to ask for help or flee. Maybe that final trial will wake her up.
I know it's harsh but that character didn't tried to do anything in contrary of her little sister. Unless, the writers want to keep her as boring and submittive character, she is really not interesting to follow. Yeah, from time to time she can talk back but that still not enough to survive Westeros.
ComputerBlue
Member
What if it never does though?
What if that's her reality, to be a victim her whole life. It exists in the real world, I see no reason why it can't happen there. That doesn't make bad writing, it makes for unusual writing though but I think it's ridiculous for everyone to expect this show to give you what you'd expect when it's proven time and time again that it doesn't. For better or for worse.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Yeah, but did she have to get raped to make that turn? It would have been very badass if she played along and then turned the tables.
Nope, we had to have one more beat on that drum first.
The season's not over, and if I'm wrong I will say so. But when this is done and we look bad, I'll bet this was unnecessary.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
If that's her arc, there's no need to push it the audience's face. All you have to do it let us know it's happening.
It sort of does, because watching a character with zero arc get the shit beat out of her time and time again is bad writing. Writing someone who's supposed to be a punching bag get beaten, kidnapped, and rape is not good TV because it's not interesting.
Why even write the character, then?
Let's do it with other characters. Just have people offhandedly talk about Ned getting beheaded, Oberyn Gallagher, or Theon tortured but never actually show any of that.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Exactly.
The rape isn't the worst thing that Ramsay has done to her-- murdering her family was. So why this?
Seriously, this so much.
The "it could happen" excuse people give writers doesn't make any damned sense. Plenty of things could totally happen, but that doesn't make it good or interesting writing.
You're missing the point. Ned was beheaded once. Oberyn was killed once. Theon was tortured all right in a row in line with his arc. Sansa's been passed around like stale bag of potatoes getting shit everywhere. They started to portray her coming back from that and now this. The arc isn't going anywhere, it's just walking sideways. That's the problem. At this point if Theon had a huge torture scene again, I'd be in the same boat saying this is some bad fucking writing. His arc should be going somewhere else if it wants to be interesting.
Arya will prefer to kill herself or she will just kill her rapist.
She has more back bone than her older sister that's what make her character interesting.
That's... not comparable, at all.
Those character had arcs. It was Ned's honor that got him killed. Oberyn's hubris. Theon's stupidity and daddy issues that lead him to where he is. That's interesting because there are consequences to actions.
Sansa is just a victim.
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