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[Masquerader]

You could argue that with the notion that sales of games are predicted to be generally lower when you play as a female character. That seemingly seems to be enough evidence for some. Especially in AAA games, where there is huge risk involved and they try to offend as few people as possible.

Yes, but if the main character of GTA VI was gay (More likely to be Bisexual though, if at all), people would still flock to it in their droves. They've already got an audience whom is loyal to them, really. (Maybe it's a bad example, but eh)

 

[Crowbear]

Now THAT is a gamechanger. ITS REVOLUTIONARY. Someone get this guy a medal.

Why does it have to be a gamechanger? People just want well written gay characters in the same types of games that we're getting now.

e: welp he got banned. Oh well.

 

[Delusibeta]

And the newest Tomb Raider has surpassed 6m sales. And again why does it matter?

It matters because it breaks the industry's myth(s) that

A female lead character will not sale.
A female lead character will not be profitable.
A female lead character has not a universal appeal.
There is no pragmatic market for a lead female character.

What, the Tomb Raider reboot, the game that Square Enix explicitly branded as a failure?

 

[pixlexic]

Is it really so hard to make any minority lead any videogame? Really? I somehow doubt it. There is little concrete evidence that states that sales would go down if a main character was gay.

you would be surprised. think of it this way the main demographic for games is still teen males.

You put an openly gay lead in a video game and you will have almost every religious group across many countries declaring you a smut peddler trying to harm their children.

Yes it is still that bad out there. Even broke back mountain had its many picket lines.

Its really not an easy decision to make for a game company trying to thrive.

 

[maneil99]

If we don't call people or companies out, things might never change. By complaining, we bring awareness to people at the very least.

You are complaining that they made their own choice for their own game, you have no say in what they creatively want to do, thats ridiculous, its there decision to create their own characters that best suite the game they choose to make. If they choose a gay character great, if they don't, great. But why should we complain because they make their own choice that isn't the same as ours?

 

[Devolution]

The many aspects of games which traditionally allude to a character's sexuality are invisible because they're usually heterosexual in nature and taken for granted.

I've never seen much objection to "forcing" hetero characters into every game with a plot. Going by typical objections to "homosexual politicization of gaming" people should be demanding all game characters be utterly blank slates that have no attributes, say nothing, and represent no pre-formed ideas. Otherwise something is being "forced" on the game/medium/audience.

Heteronormativity is so entrenched that people are essentially blind to the obvious signs of heterosexuality. When gays do it though, it's apparent because it breaks the mold.

You are complaining that they made their own choice for their own game, you have no say in what they creatively want to do, thats ridiculous, its there decision to create their own characters that best suite the game they choose to make. If they choose a gay character great, if they don't, great. But why should we complain because they make their own choice that isn't the same as ours?

This is bollocks. Simply put if you don't vocalize your desire for something companies won't recognize there is a market for it. You obtain nothing through silence, absolutely nothing. So when people call out minorities for "complaining" it is nothing more than a silencing tactic from people who want the status quo to continue.

 

[Village]

What, the Tomb Raider reboot, the game that Square Enix explicitly branded as a failure?

Thats square's bad, because poor budgeting, not because thats a women protagonist.

So stop.

 

[culafia]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_discrimination

I am FOR gay repreaentation... Stop your witch hunt.

Why does discrimination have to have "reverse" on it when talking about it against the majority?

If you're gonna give me the same "power" line my social problems teacher gave me once, why is power so fundamental to things like discrimination and racism? Why can't it just be racism when it's an act highlighting one race as lower than another? Or just discrimination when it's against a person being discriminated against? The whole "who's in power" aspect of it seems like the least important part of it. When you put "reverse" on it, it just makes the act sound like justified retribution regardless of who the individual is. It also marginalizes the people in the majority groups who are victims just because they're in the majority group.

 

[Xater]

Because when I play games I play it as if I am the character and I am not gay. If anything in the game is explicitly done to identify the character as gay, I'm going to find it hard to relate to that person.

Just curious if any straight males opted for a gay relationship in Mass Effect.

If can't relate to another human being because they have a different sexual orientation than you that is weird.

For the record I am a straight male and played a gay female Sheppard in Mass Effect and a gay male character in Dragon Age 2. I just felt like that was the character I wanted to play this time and thought it might be interesting. Thought it was kinda poorly handled in DA2.

 

[FloweryMarston]

Maybe I enjoy games differently than most people. I'm reading a few responses about the need to relate to a character in order to enjoy the game. But I tend to pretend I'm going on a journey with the protagonist. I don't try to insert myself into the character, even though I'm controlling him/her/it. So I don't have that same issue with needing to relate to the character. They can be whatever, as long they're interesting (for narrative focused games), I'm down.

I think the same man. i've no qualms to play as any character, as long as they are enjoyable to play, and their journey is interesting

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

What special ability will being gay add to the gameplay ? Or any other sexuality for that matter.

Its purely story related stuff, and most AAA games have sack of shit stories written up in minutes. Don't look for this stuff in AAA games.

 

[TheWriter]

Yes, but if the main character of GTA VI was gay (More likely to be Bisexual though, if at all), people would still flock to it in their droves.

That is an important point, and it would work for something like Assassin's Creed as well. Because for those huge franchises, no risk is involved anymore, as they will sell solely on name. Now apply the same criteria to a new franchise and try to implement a character that is a minority, this won't work out as well.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

But why would/should it be a thing in the first place?

Why bring sexual preference into a medium it would have very little bearing on.

Because there are mediums in which said sexuality was purposely ignored so you have to go out the way to acknowledge it so it can not be a big deal later. See Ellen Page, Ricky Martin, Billie Jean King, Michael Sam, etc

 

[Hitokage]

Sorry, I just not really sure I know how to use the spoiler tags on my ipad. I was referring to

Spoiler

TLOU, When the sequel comes I would be amazed if Ellie was not the main protagonist.

If a sequel comes and does so, then the cat will be out of the bag. There's no point in withholding this.

 

[Delusibeta]

Ultimately, all these diversity problems stem from one fact: AAA games all aim for the largest single demographic in console gaming, which is 16-24 white straight males. The only real solution to this is to destroy AAA games, for there is too much money for the AAA publishers and developers to change.

 

[pixlexic]

I can't relate to another human being because they have a different sexual orientation than you that is weird.

For the record I am a straight male and played a gay female Sheppard in Mass Effect and a gay male character in Dragon Age 2. I just felt like that was the character I wanted to play this time and thought it might be interesting. Thought it was kinda poorly handled in DA2.

yeah i find that odd as well . everyone has the same basic problems and joys in life.

 

[Masquerader]

That is an important point, and it would work for something like Assassin's Creed as well. Because for those huge franchises, no risk is involved anymore, as they will sell solely on name. Now apply the same criteria to a new franchise and try to implement a character that is a minority, this won't work out as well.

Yup, agreed. Perhaps established franchises should be responsible and be the first to pave the way forward, then~?

 

[……forgetit]

Has there been a single gay main character in any big budget media ever? As in games or movies? I am supportive of gay rights, but I doubt it will happen, we're still struggling to get a AAA game with non-white main character and a visible face.

 

[Dany]

Anyway, if they decided to make Master Chief gay, what difference would it make in his character? Halo doesn't have any in-game mechanics that have anything to do with romance. It's ambiguously implied in parts of the story but it's such a minor element of the entire franchise's ethos that it would be completely irrelevant.

I don't think having gay, bi or even asexual characters is harmful. It isn't at all. Diversity is good. It just has to make sense. Sexual orientation of a character just seems arbitrary unless there are playable and story elements that give good reason as to why the audience even needs to know.

I don't think any of that is wrong or mean spirited.

Then why are you disagreeing with me? We all want the same end, diversity and representation.

 

[velociraptor]

How can you still play this whole "Why does it matter" card after being discussed in recent multiple threads regarding ethnicity, gender and sexuality?

How would you feel if you were gay, black, poor-as-fuck, ugly-as-fuck, and disabled and in every game you play everybody was straight, white, Bill Gates, superhot, and healthy? Hyperbole much? Absolutely but if you consider every possibility of how you would feel then you will understand that this train-wreck-of-why-is-it important is naive.

Games are reflections or should I say representations of cultures and societies.

Let me break it down to you with another example,

And the newest Tomb Raider has surpassed 6m sales. And again why does it matter?

It matters because it breaks the industry's myth(s) that

A female lead character will not sale.
A female lead character will not be profitable.
A female lead character has not a universal appeal.
There is no pragmatic market for a lead female character.

and that promotes and encourages female writers/developers/artists/designers and female gamers that the industry is open to them and there is a place for them and they can be represented rightfully and not stereotypically. Let alone educate people by helping to break down stereotypes as well as a shit-ton of other reasons.

Point is there is no reason to limit creativity and variety of every writer/artist out there because of the myth that it will not sell well based on gender, ethnicity and in this matter sexuality. Gaming is universally appealing, more than ever, so there is no excuse to pull out your-kind-will-not-sale bull.

Branding. Tomb Raider is an instantly recognisable name.

Now look at Bayonetta.

 

[Zornack]

You are complaining that they made their own choice for their own game, you have no say in what they creatively want to do, thats ridiculous, its there decision to create their own characters that best suite the game they choose to make. If they choose a gay character great, if they don't, great. But why should we complain because they make their own choice that isn't the same as ours?

You don't want developers to be forced into making gay characters but as of right now they're more often than not forced to make the lead a straight white male. If we don't get out and tell them that there is a market for non straight white male protagonists then writes/developers/publishers who would prefer to explore other types of protagonists will be curbed by the belief that the market will only accept a straight white male protagonist.

 

[Riposte]

What, the Tomb Raider reboot, the game that Square Enix explicitly branded as a failure?

"Explicitly branded as a failure"? I think something is being lost in the translation if you think it boils down to that.

 

[kitchenmotors]

What special ability will being gay add to the gameplay ? Or any other sexuality for that matter.

Its purely story related stuff, and most AAA games have sack of shit stories written up in minutes. Don't look for this stuff in AAA games.

Except a lot of games do include certain character types... straight white males. I don't see the issue with including someone different for a change. But I guess that's what it boils down to, change. People fear it and don't like anything different than the norm.

 

[maneil99]

Has there been a single gay main character in any big budget media ever? As in games or movies? I am supportive of gay rights, but I doubt it will happen, we're still struggling to get a AAA game with non-white main character and a visible face.

Broke back mountain

 

[Red Chocobo]

Has there been a single gay main character in any big budget media ever? As in games or movies?

Quite a lot of movies. But no so many games.

 

[SirShandy]

My main problem with this is that if someone is making a character driven game with truly well rounded characters, sexual orientation or any other physiological traits that makes up an individual should not be the starting point for how a protagonist should be chosen.

I'd argue that truly well written characters in video games are pretty under-represented in general, though that's mostly because the medium needs to carefully leverage it's storytelling with the aspects that make it a video game. In terms of true character representation, a person should be represented as more then just a collection of cultural traits and labels, including their sexual orientation. People are far more complex and dynamic than this.

I understand the problem of under representation of various groups in video games, but at the same time, I think representation just because of under representation is not a creatively satisfying criteria. Not that politically motivated work can't be interesting or useful, but it sometimes becomes so focused on a specific agenda that the storytelling is no longer interesting or becomes predictable.

The truly interesting aspects of a character is their ability to change or when they are forced to reevaluate their current representation of reality because of crises or unfamiliar experiences. In other words, good storytelling is not about what a person is, but when they are forced to become more than what they currently are. Sexual orientation is just one aspect of the whole of an individual. Representation is one thing, but making a memorable and dynamic character who also happens to be homosexual is far more interesting than being progressive purely for progressions sake.

 

[Dany]

Ultimately, all these diversity problems stem from one fact: AAA games all aim for the largest single demographic in console gaming, which is 16-24 white straight males. The only real solution to this is to destroy AAA games, for there is too much money for the AAA publishers and developers to change.

No. The solution is for players to not give a fuck about whomever they're playing.

 

[twobear]

That is most likely not correct.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Asari

So how do you explain the fact that the Krogan find Asari attractive too? The Asari don't look like Turians or Salarians. They look like humans with blue skin and tentacles on their heads.

But again, it's still aimed at straight guys. It's just another example of the 'asexual aliens that JUST SO HAPPEN to look like women' thing that pops up in sci-fi from time to time. It happened in Star Trek too.

It's why the whole 'no we're not including lesbian relationships but not gay male relationships, asari are asexual aliens. what do you mean look at their hourglass figure and big titties, that's a coincidence' argument around the first game was such a dumb cop-out. They would never in a million years have made the Asari into lithe, muscular, male-looking 'asexuals'.

 

[-PXG-]

Then why are you disagreeing with me? We all want the same end, diversity and representation.

I'm just saying it has to make sense and not just X for the sake of X.

 

[Crowbear]

This idea that AAA writers aren't writing any gay characters because they don't want to is baffling to me. Do people honestly believe that?

 

[maneil99]

You don't want developers to be forced into making gay characters but as of right now they're more often than not forced to make the lead a straight white male. If we don't get out and tell them that there is a market for non straight white males than writes/developers/publishers who would prefer to explore other types of protagonists will be curbed by the belief that the market will only accept a straight white male protagonist.

There are plenty of black and asain characters out there. Game protagonists often represent the audience that buys them. Most JRPG's have Asian protagonists or white. Most western games have white or black protagonists.

 

[I'm new be nice]

Has there been a single gay main character in any big budget media ever? As in games or movies? I am supportive of gay rights, but I doubt it will happen, we're still struggling to get a AAA game with non-white main character and a visible face.

Queer as Folk

 

[Man God]

Broke back mountain

14 million dollars makes it a low budget affair for Hollywood.

 

[pixlexic]

Has there been a single gay main character in any big budget media ever? As in games or movies? I am supportive of gay rights, but I doubt it will happen, we're still struggling to get a AAA game with non-white main character and a visible face.

movies yes. plenty. some i know off the top of my head.. the crying game, broke back mountain, The Birdcage , To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything

 

[Dany]

I'm just saying it has to make sense and not just X for the sake of X.

Well of course. But so far since the inception of video games its been forced straight/white.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_discrimination

I am FOR gay representation... Stop your witch hunt. It's a real thing. God forbid I examine all the angles.

This is a wikipedia entry for reverse discrimination.
You're claiming that heterophobia is real.

 

[Xater]

No. The solution is for players to not give a fuck about whomever they're playing.

Exactly. The character you play is not you. That's the beauty of games, explore things that you otherwise might not be able to.

 

[TheWriter]

Branding. Tomb Raider is an instantly recognisable name.

Now look at Bayonetta.

Yup, this article from Eurogamer about Remember Me showed in advance why the game was doomed from the start, without even taking its quality into equation:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-19-why-publishers-refuse-games-such-as-remember-me-because-of-their-female-protagonists

"We had some [companies] that said, 'Well, we don't want to publish it because that's not going to succeed. You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that,'" creative director Jean-Maxime Moris told Penny Arcade.

"We wanted to be able to tease on Nilin's private life, and that means for instance, at one point, we wanted a scene where she was kissing a guy. We had people tell us, 'You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward.'"

By the time Remember Me was shown to publishers it was already in a state where changing the character's gender would require too much work. And it was at this point that several publishers decided they were no longer interested.

"I'm like, 'If you think like that, there's no way the medium's going to mature," Moris continued. "There's a level of immersion that you need to be at, but it's not like your sexual orientation is being questioned by playing a game. I don't know, that's extremely weird to me."

 

[maneil99]

14 million dollars makes it a low budget affair for Hollywood.

Dallas Buyers Club

 

[Delusibeta]

Thats square's bad, because poor budgeting, not because thats a women protagonist.

So stop.

Just pointing out that if you're looking for an exception to the claim that "all games that feature a female protagonist bomb", the Tomb Raider reboot is a poor example for that precise reason. As far as AAA publishers are concerned, they heard Square Enix calling it a failure, they filed it as evidence for aforementioned claim. It's probably the best selling game with a controllable female protagonist in the old gen, which is probably saying enough for AAA publishers.

 

[Masquerader]

Just out of curiousity, why do people seem to think that there is a level that reaches "Too Much Gayness"? To be honest, the problem is about reaching too much promiscuousness, which is really common in many games. It doesn't matter if it's gay or not.

 

[BlitzBlake]

Apart from that character from street fighter (Her name escapes me, handcuffs? Ridiculously sexual?) has there been any other transgender characters, not only in AAA but indie too?

 

[Dany]

14 million dollars makes it a low budget affair for Hollywood.

Holy shit. So lets ignore BBM because it didn't cost a lot to make? Lets ignore how much it grossed? How many awards it won and the cultural appreciation of the film?

Holy shit.

 

[vasametropolis]

Why does discrimination have to have "reverse" on it when talking about it against the majority?

If you're gonna give me the same "power" line my social problems teacher gave me once, why is power so fundamental to things like discrimination and racism? Why can't it just be racism when it's an act highlighting one race as lower than another? Or just discrimination when it's against a person being discriminated against? The whole "who's in power" aspect of it seems like the least important part of it. When you put "reverse" on it, it just makes the act sound like justified retribution regardless of who the individual is. It also marginalizes the people in the majority groups who are victims just because they're in the majority group.

I don't have answers for you. Reverse discrimination is just another angle to look at it from. It happens ALL the time when companies meet racial quotas with new hires, for example. Doing it for the sake of doing it is almost just as bad. It has to be natural and genuine and there are only a handful of developers probably capable of that. Getting more gay or bisexual people involved in then creative process would be a good start.

Nobody wants the shortcut approach where you essentially have an executive saying "Get a gay character in there so the gays stop complaining"

That's disgusting. Nobody wants that. It's like Donald Sterling from the LA Clippers fiasco.

 

[Masquerader]

Apart from that character from street fighter (Her name escapes me, handcuffs? Ridiculously sexual?) has there been any other transgender characters, not only in AAA but indie too?

Poison from Street Fighter actually has a personality outside of being a Transgender person, is the thing.

 

[Sai-kun]

14 million dollars makes it a low budget affair for Hollywood.

wha

 

[AppleMIX]

So how do you explain the fact that the Krogan find Asari attractive too? The Asari don't look like Turians or Salarians. They look like humans with blue skin and tentacles on their heads.

Because they can bear children, unlike many Krogan females.

But again, it's still aimed at straight guys. It's just another example of the 'asexual aliens that JUST SO HAPPEN to look like women' thing that pops up in sci-fi from time to time. It happened in Star Trek too.

Well the Asari was made to fill the "green alien girls" trope as one of the many references to various Sci-Fi media.

 

[Man God]

Moving goalposts

Not at all, just saying it's comparable to something like Fear Effect on the PSX, which was a lower budget but still mainstream studio work featuring gay characters.

It's not like the next big comic book movie or Call of Duty is going to feature more than a token gay character if that, though I'd be pleased if they did (and didn't fuck it up)

 

[Prototype]

Yup, agreed. Perhaps established franchises should be responsible and be the first to pave the way forward, then~?

Uh, no.

This entire line of thought is both dangerous and poorly thought out.

No company is, or should be "responsible" for, promoting anything beyond what they already intend within an IP or game during development. The idea of an entertainment company being responsible or your (and others) perceived social ills is way off the mark. There shouldn't be a precedent telling companies (or anyone) what kind of things they should make. It immediately infringes upon creative freedom. This isn't the answer.

 

[……forgetit]

Broke back mountain

BrokeBack Mountain wasn't a big budget movie, it was a smaller production, I mean a film on the scale of Iron Man or even the Robocop remake.