Please enlighten me then.
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Ghost in the Shell's ending spurs new accusations of even worse whitewashing
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Please enlighten me then.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
For one, one movie has a minority person losing their culture/identity, experiencing it, the other is a dumb action flick where the entire minority person is missing.
So this isn't about the interpretation of Get Out but rather GitS?
A good chunk of GitS does talk about identity and the importance of memories. The villain is driven by trying to reclaim his lost identity. I mean come on.
spiderman123
Member
Thought it was more about existentialism especially after Stand Alone Complex
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Yeah and that's what it is, talk. Get Out would be a vastly different movie if it was just a white dude talking about black people losing their culture and identity.
I mean we're seriously comparing Get Out to fucking Scarlett Johansson GITS!? Lol maybe let's get Avatar: The Last Airbender and Dragonball in here too.
Ok? Yea I agree it would be a very different movie but both films have similar themes in their script. It's just one is vastly better at it and delves into it deeper and for a much larger period.
Yes we're comparing the two because we're talking about where the movie falls short and for what reasons.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
One is a central theme. The other is something appended at the end to deal with the creator's guilt or to quell criticism (failed spectacularly by the way as you can see by all the links in the OP).
Well it's not just totally at the end however as the movie brings it up earlier with the trashguy and the villain is driven throughout the movie for that same reason. It is in the film for a good while before the twist.
I've posted this link before, but yeah, they basically thought it was clever.
Also, just for funsies. Here's a clip of Scarlett Johansson saying " I would never attempt to play a person of a different race" just days before the movie released.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Oh my god, people are actually trying to suggest GITS is tackling the same social commentary as Get Out lol wow.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
That doesn't change anything.
It's like comparing Moonlight to the Adam Sandler opus I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry.
Atraveller
Banned
Just came out of a screening. Tone-deafness aside, this is mostly an unremarkable movie.
Is it people, or is it one really really confused person?
Ok and that seems fine if you're talking about why one movie works and the other doesn't. How does a movie tackle similar material isn't some reaching type of criticism. Comparing the failings of one movie to the success of another isn't some bizarre form of analysis.
Angelus Errare
Banned
True. Confused is an understatement though.
Next we're going to see comparisons of King Kong to Romeo & Juliet
FinaruDensetsu
Member
GITS doesn't fail at "tackling" that material because it never had any intention to tackle that material. Its goals were much, much lower than that.
Trying to compare it to Get Out as an example of a movie that tried and failed to do what Get Out did is giving GITS way too much credit because it never tried.
The only real commentary that GITS makes on the loss of one's culture and race is the unintentional real life commentary made by the people behind the movie.
Well it obviously isn't talking about the roles of black males or minorities in a white society. No shit at that. However Ghost in the Shell as a franchise is about the loss of identity and this movie in line with the franchise does talk about that. Multiple characters had their identities wiped and it serves as the driving force in the movie, which is a very GitS concept.
One is about existentialism and the other is about gentrification so I guess there is difference in the consequences and motives.
I wouldn't blame Johansson. She may have signed on before that scene was written.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
Franchise? Sure. The movie? No.
What? Kuze is driven by his loss identity, the garbage guy had his previous memories wiped.
They straight up took concepts from the original anime and SAC. They fucking lifted this shit from the anime. At this point you're saying the anime isn't about loss of identity because they stole entire plot points from multiple incarnations.
Saying they didn't handle it well and saying they weren't trying to at all is two separate things.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
If you can't understand that movies can have segments that touch on certain themes but the movie not actually being about those themes then there's not really much to argue here.
Like I said, their casting choices said a hell of a lot more about identity and culture loss than that movie could ever say.
The film doesn't do anything with the revelation that she used to be Japanese. She could've been a white person named Jill Smith in her past life and it would've had the exact same effect. I suppose the audience is supposed to think it's extra fucked up that they changed her race, but the Major doesn't seem particularly affected by it. I think the film touches on a very interesting dilemma: would you return to a past life you have no memory of, simply because that's what you were before? I suppose at the end, the Major tries to make her own identity, but again the film doesn't expand upon the reasons or consequences.
The movie is a real Frankenstein of good ideas that are just slapped together with little cohesion.
The movie is a real Frankenstein of good ideas that are just slapped together with little cohesion.
There's also the idea that they probably want this to be a "more than one movie" thing. You can easily see them do a laughing man thing for another one, maybe a bit more in the future where the idea of swapping bodies is a possibility(
then can even have ScarJo getting her head blown off like in the series and then have a new body that looks different(hell, can even do this if they want to make a new one without ScarJo)
The idea of this being a new concept to that world probably hurt the concept/message of the film a slight bit, but they probably bit off more than they could chew trying to introduce a whole new universe/science/story all into one movie to begin with, but that was always something that was going to hurt it.
I dunno, felt the twist was a neat nod to fans of the franchise who weren't overly angry about the casting of a series that didn't have asian looking anime characters to begin with. /shrug
FinaruDensetsu
Member
They don't do anything with the revelation because it's there for one reason: a half-hearted attempt by the people behind the movie to excuse themselves and to get some anime name cache.
Except the audience wouldn't because most everyone would know who really changed her race (it's not the fictional characters). It's kinda like those really dumb video games that do the tongue-in-cheek thing of being self aware about their own shitty game. Nobody thinks it's funny, they just think you're an ass for knowingly making a shitty game.
One of the two main villains and the main character are chasing after their loss identity. The movie spends a sizable chunk of its runtime on that. The film brings up the notion of how important memories are. None of this is new ground for the franchise and it's largely lifted from prior entries. The writers were trying to go for a similar theme as the original, hell the original ending for this film is again lifted from the '95 version.
The film is a bit too derivative of the original which is a problem. It does go in a different direction with the ending but it's so lame that I wish they had just stuck with the original, but hey focus testers.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I wish there was some kind of witty comic shorthand I could just copy and paste over and over anytime someone brings up "anime characters don't look asian."
Animated Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent have small eyes and jet black hair. Simpsons have yellow skin.
Thinking anime characters look/are white is like something you'd expect from like a kid who doesn't know any better, because white is the default skin color they're used to seeing. Like if he keeps seeing these cartoons on Toonami or w/e, and doesn't know what anime is at all.
But if you're grown up and know what anime is, and still saying stuff like that, well..
Anime characters are generally supposed to be Japanese. Foreigners are drawn very differently, even Koreans are drawn in a different style. It would be too restrictive on a character designer if they had to make a person match certain characteristics.
There are exceptions but they're exceptions.
There are exceptions but they're exceptions.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I made one.
Ashtrax
Member
It's laughable that people are posting this quote. Have you seen the film?
At no point does ScarJo ever take on the role of a Japanese woman. She plays the Major, a machine who identifies herself as Mira Killian. Over the course of the film,
Mira learns of her past in that she was once a Japanese blogger against technology who is kidnapped and experimented on, and has her memory wiped and replaced (with the refugee backstory) so that she better performs as a weapon.
Even then, Mira continues to act as herself, only now with the real memories of who she once was. At Motoko's apartment, Mira examines the room and mother, very much in the same way she explored the emotions of touch and sensuality with the non-enhanced prostitute. The scenes play out the same way for Mira, in that they are very mechanical and analytical, rather than emotional which is placed on the secondary character (The Mother and Prostitute).
That final scene I felt was designed so that Mira acknowledges who she once was, but knows who she is now. Hugging the mother adds closure and peace for both characters.
They also bring up the ethics behind the science. Hanka didn't give two shits who they were taking (you can see in the burnt shelter heaps of people, and they were just shoving brains into machines in order to create the perfect weapon. Because of this, Dr. Ouelet is trying to come to terms with her creation of the Major, and in particular, the memory wipe of the incident which she knows is the backfire should it be discovered (Kuze just happened to be the first). There are multiple conversations about Mira's shell, Mira's ghost, and her glitches. On top of that, they only briefly touch on it, but Outlet goes on about the future of humanity and enhancement, in that a shell would likely be the next evolution, and that the Major wouldn't be unique and alone one day. That plays into the setting of the city, you can see that globalisation has occurred (the meeting with the African leader about bringing enhancement technology over touches on this)
Looking at this supposed whitewashing is superficial, particularly if you haven't seen it yet. After seeing it myself, I think there is a very interesting discussion that could have been had if they went deeper in the narrative . Unfortunately, that narrative is probably the weakest link of the film, as it doesn't deep dive.
WrenchNinja
Member
His racial identity or his identity in general? Because there is a difference.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Why are some of you being arseholes in spoilering an entirely different movie in a thread that is not the topic of that movie?
Fucking hell, man :/
Fucking hell, man :/
PdotMichael
Banned
Most foreigners aren't drawn differently in anime and manga.
That is mostly only the case to show the audience that they are foreigners because it is somehow important.
You're just another dude that simply doesn't experience institutionalized racism and therefore thinks it doesn't exist. Your minority fiancee has fuck-all to do with your narrow views, but classy that you pull her into the argument as if she somehow validates your shit opinion on the matter, my man.
I was referring to his overall identity.
Edit: Sorry I thought you were referring to a different post.
Americans are drawn in a very particular way, sometimes with larger noses, and usually have blonde hair/blue eyes. Most of the time it's pretty obvious they're not Japanese.
Yeah Infernal affairs stands on it's own, especially considering it's drama is predicated on double agents trying to counter act each other while dealing (internally) with double loyalties.
The sequel and prequel remove this tension.
Dunno about that, in the Saga of Tanya the evil, they do tend to represent the all the western european characters as having long noses and actually having brows through shadows or lines.
https://www.watchcartoononline.io/thumbs/saga-of-tanya-the-evil-episode-7-english-dubbed.jpg
As opposed to the almost "flat" faces of most anime set in japan
Scrooge McDuck
Member
There is no whataboutism in anything they said about The Great Wall. When someone suggest that you lack reading comprehension, consider that they may be right. Or explain your position because this whole vague jeering shtick is just obnoxious.
Is this really the hill you want to die on? Is it really?
As for the theme of identity and memories, yea GitS does have moments of that. But does it utilize it as a message? Does it really have anything remarkable to say about oppression and racial genocide? Now I haven't seen the film, but I'm guessing it doesn't delve any deeper than 'corporation=bad', or really come close to the ramifications of losing one's whole identity. With a different writer, it could! Just not this movie
Future PhaZe
Member
You'd be wrong. The film is entirely about identity. It doesn't even really explicitly say a corporation is bad. There's a bad guy from a corporation but that wasn't the message at all here.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
The film is about identity, but exploring racial identity isn't at the forefront in the same way as it is in Get Out. The race bending twist was unnecessary. And if they actually cared about themes of race, using a white actress like Scarjo to convey that race and skin color doesn't matter is incredibly tone deaf and condescending. As opposed to Get Out which cast Daniel Kaluuya in the leading role.
Neverforget
Member
After a white emo teenager son goku, nothing is shocking to me.
This ending fits completely with the original imo, in fact it underlined the fact her body was artificial.
And yes I know the likes of robocop came well after but the Android and mechanical body thing we've seen over and over already on the big screen. This twist on it gives it a unique spin..While yes.. Allowing a big name actor to play the role.
I was pretty surprised at the limied release this got locally...Can only imagine how worse it would have been with out scarjo
And yes I know the likes of robocop came well after but the Android and mechanical body thing we've seen over and over already on the big screen. This twist on it gives it a unique spin..While yes.. Allowing a big name actor to play the role.
I was pretty surprised at the limied release this got locally...Can only imagine how worse it would have been with out scarjo
By giving the character this backstory they inherently make her Asian. It is literally the brain/consciousness of an Asian woman named Matoko Kusanagi inside the body of a white woman. An Asian woman who has had her memories wiped and is told she is this "new" woman. So unless they paid someone else to do the thinking/voicework for Mira, then no, it is the same character. She is playing an Asian woman who has been put in a cyborg body and had her memories erased.
They could've just gone with the original ending where Kuze and Mira fuse, but they didn't because it didn't test well. So they went with this ending that literally tells us that this character is actually Asian.
They literally kill two Asian people and put them in the bodies of white people.
Or how better it could have been?
katsubento
Member
I don't really have an issue with the twist. She was pissed enough at who did it to her which is enough.
I'm Asian as well, and I did not give a crap that Scar Jo was playing her.
I'm Asian as well, and I did not give a crap that Scar Jo was playing her.
Ashtrax
Member
No, they killed 98 people and put their brains into "machines". Stop identifying the Major as a person, because she isn't. That is literally the main character, a machine. Everything that the Major does is mechanical.
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