AcademicSaucer
Member
This was my reaction when I saw the twist
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Ghost in the Shell's ending spurs new accusations of even worse whitewashing
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Usually it's in the eyes. The bigger the eyes are drawn, the more western the characters look to me.
ಠ_ಠ
BronsonLee
Member
Lol.
That's stupid.
This must be the most American girl you've ever laid your eyes on in Anime, right?
It seems to have gotten away with lot of the Fresh reviews on RT because of the visuals, which I really liked as well. Which is fine by me, you can judge a movie on the sum of its parts. I just think on the sum of its parts, this film was still not very good.
Frozenprince
Banned
Yankee Doodle Uncle Sam
MugiwaraCole
Member
I...ugh.
smileyforall220
Member
That's stupid.
This must be the most American girl you've ever laid your eyes on in Anime, right?
Toooo American! Also as a side note, Asia is home to most of the people on the planet with wide diverse backgrounds and ethnicities. It's a pet peeve when people assume Asia is only Japan and China
Pyramid head
Banned
Is L supposed to be Asian? I thought he was from England but I can't recall whether his ethnicity was mentioned.
MHWilliams
Member
Correct. It exists in the minds of studio executives. We don't have to kow-tow to it like it's real though and the more audiences literally point out it's not, the better things will be.
I probably would've goner with Tao Okamoto myself. She is imposing and has a real presence that I think would've worked well for the Major.
If you're willing to stretch to half-Japanese, there's Reiko Aylesworth.
And there's a whole big ass list if you're willing to stretch to Chinese or Korean-American.
Admittedly, I'm an absolute sucker for anything employing the Cyberpunk aesthetic, so when I say they nailed the visuals, I really mean they NAILED it. We hardly see big budget cyberpunk in Hollywood ever.
I'm also really looking forward to Blade Runner 2049 as well.
I think we can all agree that it will probably be a bitter film than this 
It's hard to know what people are thinking when they just reply like this, but I honesty don't think my opinion is even controversial. I feel like I'm just stating the obvious.
TDLink
Member
No they don't care. Oshii himself said he likes Scarlet in the role.
This is an American thing entirely, and it's legitimate. Asian actors just aren't seen as being able to carry a film for some reason.
The ironic thing is this movie probably has more Asian representation than any other major Hollywood blockbuster in recent memory.
I'm extremely surprised Beat Takeshi was so prominent and spoke entirely Japanese.
Kanuka Clancy. She is American, born in Hawaii from Patlabor
James Black from Detective Conan
German Dieter Müller from Captain Tsubasa
I approve. I like Scarlett, but I thought she did a terrible job in this film.
It's disgusting to me that they never went with with Asian actors to begin with.
It's amazing that they went that direction, given everything that's been going around surrounding this film. It's horrific that fine actors that faithfully could portray the characters in the film aren't given the chance because of racist, cultural undercurrents. To slap people in the face in the manner that they did though is just reprehensible.
Scarlett Johansson.
https://twitter.com/GMA/status/846705727750135809
How is it obvious? Western people aren't the only ones with big eyes, Asians can have them too. What makes you think Asians, in their own companies, in their own media, make western characters as their protagonists. Do you want them to give all their characters narrow eyes so you don't assume the anime is about you? If you're really having trouble, just look at the name of the character, sheesh.
MugiwaraCole
Member
It's not controversial. It's just nonsensical. Anime characters are drawn like anime characters. Outside of skin color for black folks, you usually can't look at them and immediately tell what race they are. It's just a style. You look at characters drawn predominantly by Asian creators in Asian cities with Asian names and think "white". It's stupid. They're not white just because you looked at them and assumed so because white is the "default".
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Easy. One uses a black protagonist as the face of black victimization and the other uses a white protagonist as the face of Asian victimization.
Also one movie actually cares about the message it's delivering and delivers it with guts and integrity. GitS uses its message as a thinly veiled cover up for a business decision.
jack_package_200
Banned
If nothing else, GitS 2017 lowered the fucking bar for Netflix's Death Note
MHWilliams
Member
There's a difference between this:
And these, which reference a potential spoiler directly.
Doing the first two does not call attention to it directly and perpetuate it. Note, I had to spoiler tag both of the second posts.
This is even beyond the fact that those who have issue with spoilers... generally don't know if they're actually spoilers. We literally have had this happen in multiple threads where either someone speculates or makes something up completely and we have a long derail about spoilers that aren't spoilers.
You best bet, if you have a problem with a spoiler, is to do what someone did here, which was PM a mod. That's literally how I joined the thread.
TDLink
Member
I think it's wrong to say star power doesn't exist at all or no longer has an impact even if it's diminished. Lucy did as well as it did because of Scarlet, I'm sure that partially factored into this casting.
The Rock is huge now and his involvement in Fast Five basically elevated that franchise to the level it's at today. I garuntee a random movie like Baywatch is going to do decently based purely on him.
The Marvel movies with Robert Downey Jr do make more money than the ones without him. That's why it's a big deal he's in the new spiderman too.
A bad movie is still usually going to perform poorly but a big star is going to increase interest whether it's good or bad.
This comes up a lot when people discuss anime and default ethnicity. Basically, the default characters aren't designed to look Western, that's just the default look Japanese self-identify with in anime.
When anime is brought to western countries, a lot of people then self-identify with those characters because they have big eyes, and, well Asian people aren't supposed to have big eyes, right?
I think it's somewhat insulting and possibly racist in itself, but I won't force you to change your perspective on this.
You are also incredibly wrong. The problem is that you are looking at a face with pale skin that lacks any stereotypical ethnic features. You see that and call that "white", because you subconciously see white people as the default.
In Japan, they see themselves as the default. Instead, white people are given stereotypical features. Usually, these include blond hair, large noses, and stocky or muscular builds. In contrast, small eyes are used in Japanese animation strictly as a stereotype for Chinese people.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
White people in The Simpsons are yellow.
Asians can have them yes, but Japanese typically have slimmer eyes than westerners, that's just stating the obvious. These are race traits.
And I didn't say Asians wanted to make western characters as their protagonists, I simply said that the characters they draw look more western to me than Japanese. It has nothing to do with what they are named, but purely on how they look.
Assume the anime is about me? Just in case if you think I'm white - I'm not.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
He's probably just being polite...
Kurt Angle
Member
had no idea of the anime, no idea of the whitewashing, i went to see this today to see scarJo with no clothes on
am i a bad person guiz
am i a bad person guiz
I think this is a discussion for another place, but I will say that the one thing that's obvious about this kind of discussion is that you probably shouldn't even touch it with a ten foot pole if the way you approach it is "I'm just stating the obvious".
Wasn't Iron Man single-handedly responsible for bringing Robert Downey Jr back? So, the movie made him...
I'd address the other movies, but I haven't seen them
SuperStiltzkin
Member
There are two other GitS threads to post in if you don't want to talk about the politics of it. If you're here to play up being a victim for liking the movie, find somewhere else. No one here is judging anyone for liking the movie.
Speed Racer is the best. It also didn't make the dumb mistake of being set in Japan.
Other an apparently shitty script, Ghost in the Shell's problems begin by setting it in a non-descript Asian city, just like the 1995 movie. Should've been an entirely American/Western adaptation. This is like The Departed taking place in Hong Kong, but still starring Leo DiCaprio, while everyone else remains Chinese.
If you're going to adapt an Asian property for western audiences, you need to go all the way. This half-assed whitewashed way of doing things is pointless.
Good call on Okamoto, who already left a pretty big impression in The Wolverine and has a role in John Woo's next film, which is said to be his big return to the gritty modern action films that he made his name on.
That's where I'm at. It's clear when they looked at the anime they saw a white female in the major.
Which frankly isn't exactly surprising.
Most people in the U.S who also watched the anime probably watched the dubbed variation leading to that being even more ingrained.
I do agree it was a route that was already likely laid out during the early stages. But I still think they tested at least the concept with test groups. We will never know though. I wish film, TV and games were more transparent. Huge improvements could be made. Or at least people would have a better understanding of why choices were made and then we'd be able to properly address issues.
I have never thought Motoko was meant to be white, even as a kid.
I did think Ryu from the animated movie was, though, haha. I legit thought he was a white dude who grew up in Japan, and that was why they were calling him Japanese.
Regardless, I don't see what this has to do with it. Any adult, especially in the creation of this movie, would obviously know better
MugiwaraCole
Member
I just realized that I unintentionally spoiled
. I'm sorry to anyone affected
Being white or not doesn't really mean anything. I've had black friends argue with me up and down that anime characters that obviously aren't white, are. Why? Because white is the default for a lot of us. This was a huge deal when Hunger Games hit movie screens. Rue was a black character (and was described as such in a single line in the book), but people who'd read the book and missed that line were shocked to find out she was actually black. Why? Because, having missed that line, their minds immediately painted Rue as a white character. You see this among all races of people.
Get Out
Being white or not doesn't really mean anything. I've had black friends argue with me up and down that anime characters that obviously aren't white, are. Why? Because white is the default for a lot of us. This was a huge deal when Hunger Games hit movie screens. Rue was a black character (and was described as such in a single line in the book), but people who'd read the book and missed that line were shocked to find out she was actually black. Why? Because, having missed that line, their minds immediately painted Rue as a white character. You see this among all races of people.
I just realized that I unintentionally spoiled. I'm sorry to anyone affectedGet Out
Being white or not doesn't really mean anything. I've had black friends argue with me up and down that anime characters that obviously aren't white, are. Why? Because white is the default for a lot of us. This was a huge deal when Hunger Games hit movie screens. Rue was a black character (and was described as such in a single line in the book), but people who'd read the book and missed that line were shocked to find out she was actually black. Why? Because, having missed that line, their minds immediately painted Rue as a white character. You see this among all races of people.
The reaction to the Hunger Games stuff was less of a surprise, and more outright racism.
SkyOdin said it better than I was going to. White characters have a specific look in anime.
Yeah my bad, will do so in the future.
TickleMeElbow
Member
Goddamn I feel like Asian characters have to look like this to actually be considered Asian by some people.
The revelation did make me feel a bit uncomfortable. It's just weird all around. I get that they want to say something meta about identity erasure but I'm not sure this is the film to do it.
I think the problem is that they clearly want to tap into that rich Japanese setting but wanting to cast Scarlet in the main role.
I think if they wanted to adapt it like this (casting a white actress), they should have gone for a general western futuristic setting and just change everything and not even use Ghost in the Shell name except for reference as in "Based on Ghost in the Shell" but call the film something else like Cruise's latest film.
I think the problem is that they clearly want to tap into that rich Japanese setting but wanting to cast Scarlet in the main role.
I think if they wanted to adapt it like this (casting a white actress), they should have gone for a general western futuristic setting and just change everything and not even use Ghost in the Shell name except for reference as in "Based on Ghost in the Shell" but call the film something else like Cruise's latest film.
Every Asian is Brock.Goddamn I feel like Asian characters have to look like this to actually be Asian.
The course correcting the series did with Fast Five is what elevated that series, not Dwayne Johnson. Fast & Furious made 155 Million and Fast Five made 209 million.
Robert Downey Jr. was a huge risk when the company first brought him in due to his past substance abuse and being hard to work with due to it. The movies elevated him, not the other way around and that elevation hasn't transfered to anything else he's done. People go for Iron Man/Tony Stark, not RDJ.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I bet some people think those Anime characters who are bad at math aren't Japanese either.
navii
My fantasy is that my girlfriend was actually a young high school girl.
To me it's this. But I haven't seen this movie just read the spoiler tags in this thread.
I think of the movies I've seen when somebody sees a face and memories come flooding back. So if you don't want that to happen you make sure its a face they wouldn't recognise.
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