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[hirokazu]

Something i was talking about some friends with, and wanted to get some opinions.

Is it whitewashing if the movie in question is a complete remake? or how much of the original movie has to be changed before it is considered whitewashing for changing the characters?

It is something i am genuinely curious about.

I think it's the intent during the development of the film. For example, nobody really complains about The Departed because it was adapted to a Western setting, with the gang becoming an Irish mob.

On the contrast, with this film, it seems like they wrote the plot with the intention of casting a white lead in an otherwise ambiguous setting that could've accommodated any race for the role.

And another example with Netflix's Death Note. It seems like an adaptation set in the West. If they happen to cast a white person for Light in those circumstances, I think that's fine. Death Note for me strayed into being whitewashed when they always intended for the role to be white despite it not being necessary even if it's adapted to a Western setting. And then they run with that to the point where they tell an Asian actor that they're only looking for white actors for the role.

 

[smileyforall220]

Weird stylized monsters that are meant to portray that specific culture's default. If you draw a stick figure in America it will be seen as a White man, unless you draw a skirt on it, then it's a White woman. The Japanese drew Goku, Light, etc. with the specific intention of allowing the intended Japanese audience to self-insert themselves into the characters interacting with environments and fantasy cultures that were heavily influenced by their own, real-world Japanese culture.

I guess I just see it in the same veil as the ethnicity of Finn from adventure time, or grim from billy and Mandy. I can accept that others don't see it that way though, understanding the homogenous culture of Japan and making everyone look the same. I think it's the difference between seeing skin color versus ethnicity, since skin color doesn't tell you much about a person in animation unless it's clearly stylized to reflect a different ethnicity

 

[Zero315]

I didn't say casting Scarlett Johansson insured it either...

No, but you said the movie wouldn't have been a success with an Asian lead. The movie isn't a success with a white lead, so your point is moot. Who's to say the movie wouldn't have been more successful with an Asian lead who would probably turn in a better performance? (For the record, I don't think ScarJo is a very good actress)

Casting white does not equal success, nor a higher chance of success, as history has shown us many times.

Edit: Even good movies with white leads still bomb, like Dredd and Mad Max: Fury Road.

 

[Hallowed]

You're not trying to be racist, but you're being racist. That's why people keep suggesting you take this time to self reflect.

I don't agree that my opinion on this subject is racist. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[kaioshade]

I think it's the intent during the development of the film. For example, nobody would complain about The Departed because it was adapted to a Western setting.

On the contrast, with this film, it seems like they wrote the plot with the intention of casting a white lead in an otherwise ambiguous setting that could've accommodated any race for the role.

And another example with Netflix's Death Note. It seems like an adaptation set in the West. If they happen to cast a white person for Light in those circumstances, I think that's fine. Where it becomes whitewashed is when they always intended for the role to be white despite it being ambiguous even in the adaptation, to the point where they tell an Asian actor that they're only looking for white actors for the role.

So as long as the role isnt an ambiguous one, it is generally seen as fine. Funny enough i was thinking of Departed specifically. how not only did not a peep come out of that movie (that i heard) it was nominated for a bunch of awards.

Then again, Internal Affairs isnt quite as known to most people, as GiTS

 

[smileyforall220]

Weird stylized monsters that are meant to portray that specific culture's default. If you draw a stick figure in America it will be seen as a White man, unless you draw a skirt on it, then it's a White woman. The Japanese drew Goku, Light, etc. with the specific intention of allowing the intended Japanese audience to self-insert themselves into the characters interacting with environments and fantasy cultures that were heavily influenced by their own, real-world Japanese culture.

On the first point I disagree. America isn't made of only white people(IE German/Italian/Irish/British descent) If a young child that's Hispanic draws a stick figure he probally assumes it looks like him, or if a young black child draws a stick figure, he probally assumes it's a black stick figure. Or since it's a stick figure, which is my whole point, they don't ascribe any ethnicity to it

 

[hirokazu]

Why do I feel like some people are taking my opinion as a personal attack on them or something? Sorry but those examples you posted don't look like Asian people to me either if we are looking at the face.

Again, we need to make a distinction here. I'm not saying they aren't Asian if that's the intended goal of the creators. All I'm saying is that to me, it's stylised yes, but does not look like Japanese people to me at all.

I think you're missing the point, which is that the way you view anime is inherently racist to a third person observer, and perhaps you should change that view. Instead, you're doubling down by saying, I'm not racist like those caricatures, therefore, my view of it simply cannot be racist.

People are not trying to put your views on the same equivalence as those sorts of caricatures per se. The point they're making is that just as there're some people don't see those caricatures as racist (look up pictures of people doing the slant eyes and then later apologising because they "didn't realise" it was wrong), you're doing the same thing by vehemently insisting it's not a racist view.

 

[DumbNameD]

If a bunch of anime characters are white, does that mean Japan and its anime have more diversity in its leads than Hollywood and its movies?

 

[Litan]

I don't agree that my opinion on this subject is racist. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Who cares if you agree? It is what it is.
But you're obviously dead-set on staying ignorant, so just go along your merry way,

 

[hirokazu]

So as long as the role isnt an ambiguous one, it is generally seen as fine. Funny enough i was thinking of Departed specifically. how not only did not a peep come out of that movie (that i heard) it was nominated for a bunch of awards.

Then again, Internal Affairs isnt quite as known to most people, as GiTS

Yeah, I edited my post a bit to add more context. It's not so much the ambiguity but the intention of the people involved. The ambiguity is really one of the only ways for us to tell sometimes if whitewashing was going on.

During the adaptation, the triad became an Irish mob. That makes sense when adapting Infernal Affairs to be set in the US. Of course, it could've been whitewashed all along and we'd never know, but there aren't much grounds to make accusations in that case unless somebody straight out says "we changed it to an Irish mob so we could fill the cast with white actors."

Death Note is a similar case with The Departed, until it appeared they got caught out on it because they straight up said "This role is for white actors." While I'll reserve judgment on Death Note until seeing it, just as I did for Ghost in the Shell, there's no context that I could see in Death Note that would require that.

 

[Izuna]

On the first point I disagree. America isn't made of only white people(IE German/Italian/Irish/British descent) If a young child that's Hispanic draws a stick figure he probally assumes it looks like him, or if a young black child draws a stick figure, he probally assumes it's a black stick figure. Or since it's a stick figure, which is my whole point, they don't ascribe any ethnicity to it

??

You're missing the point. PoC will also grow up to see those stick figures as being white.

Do you think PoC have different sets of eyes or process images differently? While their environment will teach them they're not white, their assumptions and habits will be the same as everyone else's (generally).

As such, the American experience has white being the "default".

A white dude, born and raised in Japan will see those "white-looking" anime characters as Japanese.

 

[Hallowed]

I think you're missing the point, which is that the way you view anime is inherently racist to a third person observer, and perhaps you should change that view. Instead, you're doubling down by saying, I'm not racist like those caricatures, therefore, my view of it simply cannot be racist.

People are not trying to put your views on the same equivalence as those sorts of caricatures per se. The point they're making is that just as there're some people don't see those caricatures as racist (look up pictures of people doing the slant eyes and then later apologising because they "didn't realise" it was wrong), you're doing the same thing by vehemently insisting it's not a racist view.

Let me ask something. It was said a few times in this thread that the Japanese see themselves in these characters/indentify as them. Therefore these anime characters are Japanese.

Do you agree with this? And if so, does that make the Japanese racist just like the westerner that may view these same characters as the default white person because they also indentify as them?

 

[smileyforall220]

??

You're missing the point. PoC will also grow up to see those stick figures as being white.

Do you think PoC have different sets of eyes or process images differently? While their environment will teach them they're not white, their assumptions and habits will be the same as everyone else's (generally).

As such, the American experience has white being the "default".

A white dude, born and raised in Japan will see those "white-looking" anime characters as Japanese.

Do you think the creator of boondocks, when drawing his doodles as a kid said to himself, "These must be white people"? I personally don't think so. A stick figure doesn't have any color attached to it, it's simply the idea/gesture of a human being. Maybe it's just my current surroundings tainting my view, living in a fairly diverse, multicultural city. Also having lived in china briefly where "Han" was the main culture, but a ton of different cultures exist outside of it

 

[Hallowed]

Who cares if you agree? It is what it is.
But you're obviously dead-set on staying ignorant, so just go along your merry way,

I care. Just because someone says something doesn't make it fact. Opinions, that's all we are discussing here really.

 

[Lois_Lane]

I care. Just because someone says something doesn't make it fact. Opinions, that's all we are discussing here really.

You still haven't posted a pic of what a japanese person in anime looks like to you. If you really don't want to be seen as racist then do it or is everyone's assumption about you correct?

 

[Arkeband]

Death Note is a similar case with The Departed, until it appeared they got caught out on it because they straight up said "This role is for white actors." While I'll reserve judgment on Death Note until seeing it, just as I did for Ghost in the Shell, there's no context that I could see in Death Note that would require that.

Let's not repeat the Death Note casting rumor unless it's confirmed, right now it's only being put forth by one jilted actor. Surely there had to have been more than one person who can corroborate this.

 

[hirokazu]

On the first point I disagree. America isn't made of only white people(IE German/Italian/Irish/British descent) If a young child that's Hispanic draws a stick figure he probally assumes it looks like him, or if a young black child draws a stick figure, he probally assumes it's a black stick figure. Or since it's a stick figure, which is my whole point, they don't ascribe any ethnicity to it

It depends. The white default is so ingrained into Western culture that even minorities automatically ascribe it onto otherwise nondescript characters. Hallowed is probably a good example of that here.

Onto the examples of Goku, Kenshin and even Ash. At that time, anime was pretty damn niche in the West. I don't think any of the creators designed those characters with the deliberate intention of making them racially ambiguous so that they could be self-identified with by audiences all over the world. That was just the way they drew characters, and to them, it was Japanese.

It doesn't matter that we might see them as ambiguous, as others have pointed out, The Simpsons is also ambiguous if you only look at the character design.

Let's not repeat the Death Note casting rumor unless it's confirmed, right now it's only being put forth by one jilted actor. Surely there had to have been more than one person who can corroborate this.

I don't know the actuality of the Death Note claim, hence I said it appeared as if that happened. Did anybody come out to refute his claims? Anyway, I'll reserve judgment on Death Note until I see the film. I'm just giving an example of what comes across as whitewashed.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Let's not repeat the Death Note casting rumor unless it's confirmed, right now it's only being put forth by one jilted actor. Surely there had to have been more than one person who can corroborate this.

Why does the production deserve the benefit of the doubt?

 

[smileyforall220]

It depends. The white default is so ingrained into Western culture that even minorities automatically ascribe it onto otherwise nondescript characters. Hallowed is probably a good example of that here.

Onto the examples of Goku, Kenshin and even Ash. At that time, anime was pretty damn niche in the West. I don't think any of the creators designed those characters with the deliberate intention of making them racially ambiguous so that they could be self-identified with by audiences all over the world. That was just the way they drew characters, and to them, it was Japanese.

It doesn't matter that we might see them as ambiguous, as others have pointed out, The Simpsons is also ambiguous if you only look at the character design.

I guess that's the difference between stylized drawings and realistic ones. In a vacuum, without any pre-existing information about the animations, the viewer would only have the setting to help guide them to determine ethnicity. In the case of the Simpsons, I really do think that the creators envisioned a catch all family that represents an average American life that are yellow in a way to remove the idea that people would assume they are just "white". The opposite being family guy, a family clearly defined as white and Boston located. But then again I am also white, so I can't hope to speak on what other ethnicities see on the subject.

 

[mreddie]

SPOILERS:

Spoiler

They should have just left the race issue alone, just keep Mira as Mira or have her original self be another white actress. The moment the mother came on the screen, I was really nervous and then they actually did it. The supposed original ending for the film would have added even creepier layer but audiences didn't like it. So audiences weren't okay with her boyfriend sharing her mind or body but were okay with Makoto to Mira?What?

And we thought Emma Stone as a Hawaiian in Aloha was too much.

 

[hirokazu]

Let me ask something. It was said a few times in this thread that the Japanese see themselves in these characters/indentify as them. Therefore these anime characters are Japanese.

Do you agree with this? And if so, does that make the Japanese racist just like the westerner that may view these same characters as the default white person because they also indentify as them?

These anime characters are Japanese because in the context of their stories, these are Japanese characters. There are plenty of anime where the characters are not Japanese but they're drawn exactly the same way and everyone understands they're not Japanese.

Your comment was that regardless of what ethnicity these characters were in their stories, these characters simply did not look Japanese to you and you would never identify with them as being Japanese because their eyes are too big to be Japanese. That's the difference.

An equivalency to your argument would be if the Japanese looked at Western characters in anime that looked just like every other character who was Japanese and said "No matter what the story says, these characters are just Japanese to me."

 

[Vital Tundra]

So instead of just leaving it at her being white before and after, she was in fact Asian and other characters were in fact Asian beforehand. Jesus Christ.

 

[Arkeband]

Why does the production deserve the benefit of the doubt?

Is this an actual thing you just said? You want to treat unverified claims as fact because they could be true? Are you Trump?

 

[ZealousD]

On the topic of caucasian/asian character appearances in anime, on some level it's natural that some people think that most anime characters look white. Namely, because most artists in anime don't really seem to make a point to very clearly design visual characteristics that differentiate between asian and caucasian.

Some people claim that when anime artists want to draw a Caucasian character, they do things like square heads, strong jaws, and blonde hair. And yet, that also describes a character like Batou, who is also Japanese.

 

[Hallowed]

These anime characters are Japanese because in the context of their stories, these are Japanese characters. There are plenty of anime where the characters are not Japanese but they're drawn exactly the same way and everyone understands they're not Japanese.

Your comment was that regardless of what ethnicity these characters were in their stories, these characters simply did not look Japanese to you and you would never identify with them as being Japanese because their eyes are too big to be Japanese. That's the difference.

An equivalency to your argument would be if the Japanese looked at Western characters in anime that looked just like every other character who was Japanese and said "No matter what the story says, these characters are just Japanese to me."

I think I see the issue now. You were correct when you said I didn't think the characters looked Japanese, and can you blame me, as you just said they draw people of other ethnicities exactly the same.

What I didn't say, is that little part in bold that you decided to try and put words into my mouth. I made it very clear from the beginning that I meant what I said purely on looks of most anime characters. I never said they could/would never be Japanese to me even if it was obvious that's what the intention was.

 

[Anton Sugar]

The hypocrisy of the moral cliche of "it's what's inside that counts" juxtaposed with "we have to cast a white actor to make money" is just staggering.

Just wanted to say this is a fantastic post. You really highlight the unfortunate cynicism, and fear, of studios.

 

[commedieu]

*sips hojicha tea*

 

[Zoe]

Is this an actual thing you just said? You want to treat unverified claims as fact because they could be true? Are you Trump?

Absent a denial, why shouldn't we believe his claim? He had more to lose by lying.

 

[mreddie]

*sips oolong tea*

Sink.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

I don't agree that my opinion on this subject is racist. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

You can kinda do what you want. Your point is still racist. *shrug* thems the breaks.

 

[Platy]

Death Note is a similar case with The Departed, until it appeared they got caught out on it because they straight up said "This role is for white actors." While I'll reserve judgment on Death Note until seeing it, just as I did for Ghost in the Shell, there's no context that I could see in Death Note that would require that.

There is also the bonus that they hired a black dude for one of the main characters in Death Note, so at least SOME minorities they are casting, even if they completly changed the place of the story, Superman Red Son style

 

[hirokazu]

I think I see the issue now. You were correct when you said I didn't think the characters looked Japanese, and can you blame me, as you just said they draw people of other ethnicities exactly the same.

What I didn't say, is that little part in bold that you decided to try and put words into my mouth. I made it very clear from the beginning that I meant what I said purely on looks of most anime characters. I never said they could/would never be Japanese to me even if it was obvious that's what the intention was.

Fair enough, but there was a strong implications of that when you write:

Just to throw in my opinion, I see Major, despite her having a Japanese name, as looking like a white woman, because she just does. If I were to go purely on looks, I wouldn't say there was anything Japanese about her. And to be honest that goes for a lot of anime.

and then follow it up with:

Usually it's in the eyes. The bigger the eyes are drawn, the more western the characters look to me.

 

[Ridley327]

So as long as the role isnt an ambiguous one, it is generally seen as fine. Funny enough i was thinking of Departed specifically. how not only did not a peep come out of that movie (that i heard) it was nominated for a bunch of awards.

Then again, Internal Affairs isnt quite as known to most people, as GiTS

Most of the talk of Infernal Affairs vs. The Departed centered around just that: which film was better.

On a related note, Scorsese actually did something really cool at the Oscars that year, when he took a little time to correct the announcer that incorrectly called out the film as being a Japanese one during his acceptance speech for best director.

 

[Cipherr]

The hypocrisy of the moral cliche of "it's what's inside that counts" juxtaposed with "we have to cast a white actor to make money" is just staggering.

This is so painfully true. And it jumps out at you from the outside looking in.

I have no idea how the people behind the film didn't pick up on this and decide to perhaps change course somehow. It's just unbelievably tone deaf.

 

[Hallowed]

You can kinda do what you want. Your point is still racist. *shrug* thems the breaks.

You can kinda do what you want. Your point is still just your own opinion. *shrug* thems the breaks.

 

[sphagnum]

The only way that it's ok to pick only a white actor for Light is if they make it into some social commentary, which is quite possible with white Light and black L.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Is this an actual thing you just said? You want to treat unverified claims as fact because they could be true? Are you Trump?

I'm not willing to automatically dismiss a guy over claiming the casting process was racially discriminatory given Hollywood's well known history for it. How many people coming out and saying so would be satisfactory as evidence for you?

 

[Arkeband]

Absent a denial, why shouldn't we believe his claim? He had more to lose by lying.

He'd lose what exactly, his fledgling acting career? You want to believe that Wingard is a racist when he cast a black actor as L? What do you gain by believing this?

 

[Jotaka]

I think I see the issue now. You were correct when you said I didn't think the characters looked Japanese, and can you blame me, as you just said they draw people of other ethnicities exactly the same.

What I didn't say, is that little part in bold that you decided to try and put words into my mouth. I made it very clear from the beginning that I meant what I said purely on looks of most anime characters. I never said they could/would never be Japanese to me even if it was obvious that's what the intention was.

That is your problem. You have an stereotype of what an asian SHOULD look like and in your case it means thin eyes. And in the end is pretty much this.

your words

Usually it's in the eyes. The bigger the eyes are drawn, the more western the characters look to me.

"Your drawing style about races must conform with my point of view."

 

[Lois_Lane]

You can kinda do what you want. Your point is still just your own opinion. *shrug* thems the breaks.

Post. A. Picture.

This could all be solved if you just post a damn picture but you just want to be flippant. Wimp.

 

[hirokazu]

Is this an actual thing you just said? You want to treat unverified claims as fact because they could be true? Are you Trump?

Well we don't know what the actual truth is. I didn't follow it closely after the initial claim, but it seems like people went around discrediting the guy who made the claim. And I'm not sure of the veracity of those claims discrediting the guy either.

I'm just saying if it happened like the way he described it, then it's clearly whitewashing.

 

[Zen Aku]

As someone who is Asian, I didn't see that big of a deal out of the fact that Major was an Asian then got mind transferred into a white woman. But then again I have very little knowledge about the original Ghost of the Shell so to me I feel like less of a connection to the series. That's probably why I don't care as much. I thought it was a cool twist *shrug*

Overall I enjoyed the movie.

I can see why people would be upset at it though.

 

[Hallowed]

Post. A. Picture.

This could all be solved if you just post a damn picture but you just want to be flippant. Wimp.

I already answered this on a previous page, to read. No name calling please.

 

[Hallowed]

That is your problem. You have an stereotype of what an asian SHOULD look like and in your case it means thin eyes. And in the end is pretty much this.

your words

Again with the extremes. You're the one with a problem buddy.

 

[Lois_Lane]

I already answered this on a previous page, to read. No name calling please.

I saw your answer and it was a terribly weak one. There are thousands upon thousands of anime and manga. How can you not find one picture to prove for your point from any of the choices available to you? You're just dodging.

 

[WrenchNinja]

He'd lose what exactly, his fledgling acting career? You want to believe that Wingard is a racist when he cast a black actor as L? What do you gain by believing this?

How is casting a black actor preventing you from being racist toward asians?

 

[Hallowed]

I saw your answer and it was a terribly weak one. There are thousands upon thousands of anime and manga. How can you not find one picture to prove for your point from any of the choices available to you? You're just dodging.

I don't care if it's weak to you, it's the truth. If none come to mind right now then none come to mind. I'm not gonna just post anything because you're trying to force me too.

 

[Magus1234]

Who cares if someone thinks anime characters don't look Asian when most of them look like freaks of nature anyway? They don't look like any human, never mind Japanese.

 

[Lois_Lane]

I don't care if it's weak to you, it's the truth. If none come to mind right now then none come to mind. I'm not gonna just post anything because you're trying to force me too.

Excuses. Excuses. No one's buying it.

 

[SRG01]

Most of the talk of Infernal Affairs vs. The Departed centered around just that: which film was better.

On a related note, Scorsese actually did something really cool at the Oscars that year, when he took a little time to correct the announcer that incorrectly called out the film as being a Japanese one during his acceptance speech for best director.

Yes. The way Scorsese handled The Departed was the right way to adapt foreign works. Hell, the elevator scene was a straight up tribute to the original Infernal Affairs.