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[Poor GRIMES]

The movie presents it an as an explicit metaphor for rape so I'm not really sure how it's at all worse.

Now sis I generally like what you contribute.

But think about what you just posted:

She was raped so hard she turned White. A literal huh?

 

[Hallowed]

Goddamn I feel like Asian characters have to look like this to actually be considered Asian by some people.

Not sure if you were trying to be funny but that picture edit is just in really bad taste and insulting.

 

[hirokazu]

The revelation did make me feel a bit uncomfortable. It's just weird all around. I get that they want to say something meta about identity erasure but I'm not sure this is the film to do it.

I think the problem is that they clearly want to tap into that rich Japanese setting but wanting to cast Scarlet in the main role. I think if they wanted to adapt it like this, they should have gone for a general western futuristic setting and just change everything and not even use Ghost in the Shell name except for reference as in "Based on Ghost in the Shell" but call the film something else like Cruise's latest film.

But they wanted to have all the cool Asian text and imagery all over the city because it looked great in Blade Runner and the 1995 film. Even though Blade Runner was still set in LA. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[MugiwaraCole]

The reaction to the Hunger Games stuff was less of a surprise, and more outright racism.

This situation with Ghost in the Shell's casting is outright racism, whether people are comfortable labeling it as such or not.

But there really were a ton of people who legit just didn't realize Rue was black. My black mother included. I pointed the line out to her in the first book (which she'd read), and she was surprised. That's what happens when all forms of media typically back white as the default race.

I know of someone who wrote a book with a black heroine. The covers that were submitted to them for it all featured a white woman. They had to fight to get that reversed.

 

[hirokazu]

Not sure if you were trying to be funny but that picture edit is just in really bad taste and insulting.

I think now would be a good time to self-reflect on why your view on default race in anime is also insulting, because that pic was basically an illustration of the message it conveys.

 

[WetWaffle]

Not sure if you were trying to be funny but that picture edit is just in really bad taste and insulting.

Now I'm sure you're trolling. That joke basically coincides with your view. You see every character in Anime as western rather than Asian unless they're a different skin color or they do something drastic like that.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Not sure if you were trying to be funny but that picture edit is just in really bad taste and insulting.

Well it's true.

When I was growing up I watched the Japanese version of Pokemon (because I'm half Japanese, and I lived in Japan when it came out). When I moved to the US all my friends argued that Satoshi (Ash for Americans) was white, and Brock was Asian "because his eyes".

So yeah.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Not sure if you were trying to be funny but that picture edit is just in really bad taste and insulting.

You basically said you need anime characters to look like that to view them as Asian. So...yeah.

 

[anaron]

Now sis I generally like what you contribute.

But think about what you just posted:

She was raped so hard she turned White. A literal huh?

the film repeatedly has Major saying "I give my consent" to later being told

Spoiler

by the white doctors who built her that it never really mattered

The film treats her being placed into another body as a horrible thing forced on her, which it was. She doesn't like it and she feels alien and disconnected due to it.

 

[Replicant]

But they wanted to have all the cool Asian text and imagery all over the city because it looked great in Blade Runner and the 1995 film. Even though Blade Runner was still set in LA. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

It's really, really unfortunate because apart from that annoying issue, the film is surprisingly competent and beautiful to look at. I'm pretty sure if they want they can insert a little bit of Asian influence in the city scape like in Fifth Element but the whole Japanese side of the film was dealt with in a strange way.

Having said that, I feel like this is less of outright racism but more like indifference/insensitivity/tone deaf on the part of the film maker in their attempt to chase the worldwide money. But that's the problem isn't it? I think the film will still work well with an Asian female lead in the role. And Scarlet wouldn't have to look so awkward in that final scene (you know what scene when you see it) lol.

 

[border]

I don't see how this makes the film itself racist, or is "even worse" than casting ScarJo in the first place.

I don't think you are meant to take the scientists' effusive praise of Motoko at face value. She isn't "perfect" or "the next stage of human evolution". She is a mostly an emotionless robot killing machine with no sense of identity. We aren't supposed to view her as superior, we are supposed to fear her as the natural extension of humanity's obsession with augmentation and science's obsession with playing god. She is no more a role model for us than Frankenstein's monster. You can feel empathy for her and be awed by her abilities, but I don't think there's anyone in the audience that would really want to trade places with her.

 

[BruceCLea]

Steve Bannon will love this film.

 

[DarthMasta]

Hollywood feels like there are no Asian actresses that could have played the lead and have the movie be a success, and they're probably right.

It's a Hollywood movie. Asians aren't going to go see it expecting anything other than an Hollywood movie, and Asia has a pretty big movie production, Asians can find themselves represented very easily, just go see a local movie.

It's Asian-Americans who are screwed.

Still, racial bending in story was dumb as hell...

 

[Hallowed]

I think now would be a good time to self-reflect on why your view on default race in anime is also insulting, because that pic was basically an illustration of the message it conveys.

Now I'm sure you're trolling. That joke basically coincides with your view. You see every character in Anime as western rather than Asian unless they're a different skin color or they do something drastic like that.

Why does it have to be such extremes with some of you? My message was in no way insinuating what that silly picture conveyed. For one, that doesn't look like Japanese eyes, it looks like a racist dipiction of Asian eyes. If you want to view me as a racist because, in my opinion, a lot of these anime characters look white to me, then that's on you. Doesn't mean I'm a racist though.

 

[anaron]

I don't see how this makes the film itself racist, or is "even worse" than casting ScarJo in the first place.

I don't think you are meant to take the scientists' effusive praise of Motoko at face value. She isn't "perfect" or "the next stage of human evolution". She is a most emotionless robot killing machine with no sense of identity. We aren't supposed to view her as superior, we are supposed to fear her as the natural extension of humanity's obsession with augmentation and science's obsession with playing god. She is no more a role model for us than Frankenstein's monster.

Exactly.


I think it's obvious that so many are reacting to the outline rather than actually seeing the film.

 

[hirokazu]

the film repeatedly has Major saying "I give my consent" to later being told

Spoiler

by the white doctors who built her that it never really mattered

The film treats her being placed into another body as a horrible thing forced on her, which it was. She doesn't like it and she feels alien and disconnected due to it.

I think you saw something in the film that I and a lot of other people clearly missed. And you may be right, but the film ham-fisted it so much it was pretty much lost.

 

[smileyforall220]

Goddamn I feel like Asian characters have to look like this to actually be considered Asian by some people.

Despite the fact that this is what "Asian" looks like:

 

[.JayZii]

Why does it have to be such extremes with some of you? My message was in no way insinuating what that silly picture conveyed. For one, that doesn't look like Japanese eyes, it looks like a racist dipiction of Asian eyes. If you want to view me as a racist because, in my opinion, a lot of these anime characters look white to me, then that's on you. Doesn't mean I'm a racist though.

You should post some pictures of characters in anime that read as Asian and White to you to illustrate your point. Otherwise people will interpret what you're saying for themselves and may take it to extremes.

 

[BronsonLee]

I think you saw something in the film that I and a lot of other people clearly missed. And you may be right, but the film ham-fisted it so much it was pretty much lost.

I'm 100% with anaron on this

They really play on the fact that Major doesn't feel like herself because they stole her identity

 

[MugiwaraCole]

Why does it have to be such extremes with some of you? My message was in no way insinuating what that silly picture conveyed. For one, that doesn't look like Japanese eyes, it looks like a racist dipiction of Asian eyes. If you want to view me as a racist because, in my opinion, a lot of these anime characters look white to me, then that's on you. Doesn't mean I'm a racist though.

Your opinion is harmful. Extremely harmful. For reasons explained above. Now would be a good time to self-reflect.

 

[Replicant]

One thing that really annoys me about the film is how they're so scared of the film feeling too Japanese, that they didn't use the shelling sequence song and instead replace it with some random bg music. FFS, if there's one sequence that'd be perfectly captured with that song, it'd be that scene. The Japanese influence is all over the film anyway so why not go all the way through with it?

 

[WetWaffle]

Why does it have to be such extremes with some of you? My message was in no way insinuating what that silly picture conveyed. For one, that doesn't look like Japanese eyes, it looks like a racist dipiction of Asian eyes. If you want to view me as a racist because, in my opinion, a lot of these anime characters look white to me, then that's on you. Doesn't mean I'm a racist though.

Unless you want to bring an example such as an image of who you view as Asian and white in anime, I'm just gonna take your posts at face value what it looks like

 

[hirokazu]

Why does it have to be such extremes with some of you? My message was in no way insinuating what that silly picture conveyed. For one, that doesn't look like Japanese eyes, it looks like a racist dipiction of Asian eyes. If you want to view me as a racist because, in my opinion, a lot of these anime characters look white to me, then that's on you. Doesn't mean I'm a racist though.

No, I don't think your views are intentionally racist, but as my previous post mentioned, that's what your opinion comes across as, and it does cross into possible racism. That's why I suggested it was a good opportunity to self-reflect.

On the other hand, if anime characters don't come across as Asian unless they have smaller eyes, you could show a picture of an anime character that does come across as Asian to you to show what you mean?

 

[Haly]

I feel like the Japanese = thin eyes thing is rooted more in stereotypes than reality.

The cast of Friends:

The cast of of Zyuohger:

Of course there are common physical attributes to the eyes, like caucasian eyes being blockier while Asian ones are more round/almond, but it's not like America cinema lacks its fare share of its prominent natural squinters.

But still there's this widely prevalent idea of West = big eye, East = small eye. It just doesn't jive with reality, so I assume it must be little more than a stereotype.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Not sure if you were trying to be funny but that picture edit is just in really bad taste and insulting.

It's actually incredible how far over your head his point went. Like, I'm actually legit shocked

 

[anaron]

Your opinion is harmful. Extremely harmful. For reasons explained above. Now would be a good time to self-reflect.

I agree with the sentiment, but in the case of Oshii's film which is drawn with a far more realistic styling, it's fairly easy to assume his Major is white. Many of the characters look distinctly Asian except for her and the Puppetmaster which are both the same mass produced robotic body.

 

[MHWilliams]

I think it's wrong to say star power doesn't exist at all or no longer has an impact even if it's diminished. Lucy did as well as it did because of Scarlet, I'm sure that partially factored into this casting.

The Rock is huge now and his involvement in Fast Five basically elevated that franchise to the level it's at today. I guarantee a random movie like Baywatch is going to do decently based purely on him.

The Marvel movies with Robert Downey Jr do make more money than the ones without him. That's why it's a big deal he's in the new spiderman too.

A bad movie is still usually going to perform poorly but a big star is going to increase interest whether it's good or bad.

They've statistically crunched the numbers. Star power doesn't really do much of anything. Pick a star, I'll show you a bomb.

From the article I previously posted:
http://www.economist.com/news/busin...bank-pulling-power-famous-actors-fading-stars

Academic studies in recent decades have generally failed to find any conclusive evidence to support studio bosses’ faith in stars’ pulling power. Our own analysis suggests only that a few of them do add a bit to box-office receipts. Number-crunchers at Epagogix, a company in London, use an algorithm to project box-office takings of films based on their story elements—including the use of special effects, a surprise ending or a cool location. And they reckon that as long as the stars look good and can act, they make scant difference, with at best a very few exceptions. It helps to have a damsel in distress, but it does not really matter which damsel.

Among the few stars who do, by common consent among studio bosses, producers and agents, seem to be guarantors of success are the biggest comedy actors—names such as Kevin Hart and Melissa McCarthy. This is in part because they signal to the audience precisely what kind of entertainment is on offer, and are good at delivering. Our analysis backs this, with a bunch of leading comedy actors strongly outperforming industry averages. But the trajectories of star careers leave a lot of room for guesswork. Bruce Willis was paid $5m to make “Die Hard” in 1988; some in Hollywood were aghast, but the movie was a huge hit. Then Mr Willis made more flops than hits (excepting the “Die Hard” sequels) before hitting it big again with “The Sixth Sense”. But this time, was it the star or the story?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-how-star-power-840328

"So, even when you have two of the most recognized faces in the world in Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, if the project by all accounts, isn’t some kind a masterpiece, it will likely become film fodder. Or, to put delicately, a wash," Bock continues.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...matter-25-franchises-20160616-snap-story.html

Russell Crowe is Hollywood royalty. Or at least he used to be. He’s got an Oscar under his belt and a string of critically acclaimed hit films — “L.A. Confidential,” “Gladiator” and “A Beautiful Mind” — on his resume. But does he have the star power to open a movie?

Not anymore, judging by his most recent box office. His latest film, “The Nice Guys,” opened at No.4, beaten by “The Jungle Book,” “Captain America: Civil War” and, yes, “Angry Birds.” Even Will Smith, who drew audiences around the world for films such as “Independence Day” and “Men in Black,” released two films last year (“Concussion” and “Focus”) that together barely topped $200 million worldwide.

Today, characters bring all the boys and girls to the box office. Is Daniel Radcliffe a movie star? Unclear. But “Harry Potter” is. Zoe Saldana has made 25 movies with a combined gross of more than $5 billion — but $4.4 billion of that came from “Avatar,” “Guardians of the Galaxy” or the “Star Trek” films; movies in which she existed as a primary color, in space or both.

Looking at the box office for films like “The Soloist” ($38.3 million) and “The Judge” ($84.4 million), both made after “Iron Man” kickstarted the Marvel Cinematic Universe, no one wants to see Robert Downey Jr. as much as they want to see Tony Stark. The latest Marvel film featuring that character, “Captain America: Civil War,” has pulled in $1.1 billion in the global box office receipts.

“There are certainly international movie stars who show up in various territories around the world and they’re mobbed by adoring fans,” said Dergarabedian. “I don’t mean to diminish that. But if the concept is king in North America, it’s tenfold that in the international marketplace.”

On the Rock, he didn't make Fast Five. Fast Five made the Rock; that was the beginning of his rise. Look at the films before Fast Five and the films after. Or do you consider Faster, Gridiron Gang, Doom, and Walking Tall to be the height of cinema?

Lucy is an easy sell of an action film, with a strong premise. GITS is not. That's why one opened to $43 million and went on to do $463 million worldwide, and the other will open to $20 million.

Brand before star. Do you wonder why actors jump on to do Marvel, DC, and Star Wars films. That's why.

 

[massoluk]

I dont understand the complain about representation, there's a Japanese robot in the movie.

 

[anaron]

One thing that really annoys me about the film is how they're so scared of the film feeling too Japanese, that they didn't use the shelling sequence song and instead replace it with some random bg music. FFS, if there's one sequence that'd be perfectly captured with that song, it'd be that scene. The Japanese influence is all over the film anyway so why not go all the way through with it?

Yeah I don't get it either. Especially because the song was clearly remixed by Kawaii to fit the new shelling sequence and it was so much better.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Why does it have to be such extremes with some of you? My message was in no way insinuating what that silly picture conveyed. For one, that doesn't look like Japanese eyes, it looks like a racist dipiction of Asian eyes. If you want to view me as a racist because, in my opinion, a lot of these anime characters look white to me, then that's on you. Doesn't mean I'm a racist though.

Dude these were all Asian people to me growing up, because they are (yes I know Goku was retconned into an Alien).

Tell me about their eyes and how they don't look "Asian enough" for you tho.

 

[Hallowed]

It's actually incredible how far over your head his point went. Like, I'm actually legit shocked

I saw his point and wanted to distance myself as far away from it as possible because it's overtly racist. I don't think my opinion is racist, hence wanting to distance myself from it.

And people asking me to post a picture from an anime that I find looks more Asian to me than western, I can't actually think of one right now but if I do I'll post for sure.

 

[Jotaka]

Why eyes are big in manga/anime

Masaki Yuki, a behavioral scientist at Hokkaido University in Japan
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Japa...-Eyes-the-Americans-by-Your-Mouth-54495.shtml

The culture we belong to dictates each and every of our gestures. Also, a real cultural abyss has been revealed in the way we appreciate facial expressions amongst cultures. "For instance, in Japan, people tend to look to the eyes for emotional cues, whereas Americans tend to look to the mouth," said researcher Masaki Yuki, a behavioral scientist at Hokkaido University in Japan.

"This could be because the Japanese, when in the presence of others, try to suppress their emotions more than Americans do. In any case, the eyes are more difficult to control than the mouth, so they probably provide better clues about a person's emotional state even if he or she is trying to hide it", explained Yuki.

Emoticons were the clue

(^_^) (;_
vs

PAPER : https://lynx.let.hokudai.ac.jp/~myuki/paper/Face paper JESP in press.pdf

I feel like the Japanese = thin eyes thing is rooted more in stereotypes than reality.

BINGO
Hallowed is the typical example of people who has ingrained that asian = thin eyes

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Dude these were all Asian people to me growing up, because they are (yes I know Goku was retconned into an Alien).

Goku is a monkey boy with a monkey tail. Last I checked Asians don't have tails.

 

[kitchenmotors]

I agree with the sentiment, but in the case of Oshii's film which is drawn with a far more realistic styling, it's fairly easy to assume his Major is white. Many of the characters look distinctly Asian except for her and the Puppetmaster which are both the same mass produced robotic body.

I'm not sure I ever saw the Major as white,

Spoiler

but the body she is put into following the events of the first film and the sequel, I felt certain was a white child.

It didn't really matter what body she was put into, race or sex, because she was so far from human at that point. Trying to figure out her identity and where she belonged was a focal point. I feel like the 2017 movie tries to take it a step further and give her back story and indentity more substance, in which she was stripped of against her will.

 

[Zero315]

Hollywood feels like there are no Asian actresses that could have played the lead and have the movie be a success, and they're probably right.

The movie is on track for a 20 million dollar opening weekend which will set it in third or fourth place.

Apparently casting a white woman didn't make the movie a success either soooo....

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I bet some people think those Anime characters who are bad at math aren't Japanese either.

Which makes it all the more surprising people thought the Major wasn't Japanese

Spoiler

considering she's incredible math

 

[Hallowed]

Tell me about their eyes and how they don't look "Asian enough" for you tho.

Why do I feel like some people are taking my opinion as a personal attack on them or something? Sorry but those examples you posted don't look like Asian people to me either if we are looking at the face.

Again, we need to make a distinction here. I'm not saying they aren't Asian if that's the intended goal of the creators. All I'm saying is that to me, it's stylised yes, but does not look like Japanese people to me at all.

 

[DarthMasta]

The movie is on track for a 20 million dollar opening weekend which will set it in third or fourth place.

Apparently casting a white woman didn't make the movie a success either soooo....

I didn't say casting Scarlett Johansson insured it either...

 

[hirokazu]

I feel like the Japanese = thin eyes thing is rooted more in stereotypes than reality.

Of course there are common physical attributes to the eyes, like caucasian eyes being blockier while Asian ones are more round/almond, but it's not like America cinema lacks its fare share of its prominent natural squinters.

Exactly. Even excluding Western and South Asia, not all Asians have small eyes. The Epicanthic fold is what gives most East and South East Asians their distinctive eyes, but that doesn't necessarily make them small.

I think Big Hero 6 handled that very well in that the Asian characters were clearly Asian but they weren't stereotyped with thin eyes.

Kubo and the Two Strings, on the other hand, was weird - all the villagers had tiny eyes to say "this is set in Asia" or something but then they gave Kubo much larger eyes to be different to everyone else.

 

[Izuna]

This situation with Ghost in the Shell's casting is outright racism, whether people are comfortable labeling it as such or not.

But there really were a ton of people who legit just didn't realize Rue was black. My black mother included. I pointed the line out to her in the first book (which she'd read), and she was surprised. That's what happens when all forms of media typically back white as the default race.

I know of someone who wrote a book with a black heroine. The covers that were submitted to them for it all featured a white woman. They had to fight to get that reversed.

You're unaware of the reactions to Rue over twitter then, because... that shit was uncontrollable

 

[smileyforall220]

Dude these were all Asian people to me growing up, because they are (yes I know Goku was retconned into an Alien).

Tell me about their eyes and how they don't look "Asian enough" for you tho.

To be fair, anime characters with the triangle nose and chin with giant eyes just look like weird stylized monsters. I think the ethnicity of most animes is whatever you read into on a personal level unless the plot says specifically that they are something specific. They act almost like hollow vessels, similar to how sonic is a character but has no specific ethnicity, but still portrays all the traits of a human being.

 

[Lois_Lane]

Why do I feel like some people are taking my opinion as a personal attack on them or something? Sorry but those examples you posted don't look like Asian people to me either if we are looking at the face.

Again, we need to make a distinction here. I'm not saying they aren't Asian if that's the intended goal of the creators. All I'm saying is that to me, it's stylised yes, but does not look like Japanese people to me at all.

Post a photo of what a japanese person in anime looks like to you.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

To be fair, anime characters with the triangle nose and chin with giant eyes just look like weird stylized monsters. I think the ethnicity of most animes is whatever you read into on a personal level unless the plot says specifically that they are something specific. They act almost like hollow vessels, similar to how sonic is a character but has no specific ethnicity, but still portrays all the traits of a human being.

Well the Simpsons look like monsters with their eyeballs sticking out of their faces, but no one I know assumes they're anything but white.

 

[JP_]

I saw his point and wanted to distance myself as far away from it as possible because it's overtly racist. I don't think my opinion is racist, hence wanting to distance myself from it.

And people asking me to post a picture from an anime that I find looks more Asian to me than western, I can't actually think of one right now but if I do I'll post for sure.

You're not trying to be racist, but you're being racist. That's why people keep suggesting you take this time to self reflect.

 

[MugiwaraCole]

You're unaware of the reactions to Rue over twitter then, because... that shit was uncontrollable

Nah, I seent it. Just saying it was a little more nuanced than that. Though, honestly, the only reason it was even a thing, even with my mother, is because of racism, so...yeah.

Damn. Gives you a lot to think about, really.

 

[DarthMasta]

Why do I feel like some people are taking my opinion as a personal attack on them or something? Sorry but those examples you posted don't look like Asian people to me either if we are looking at the face.

They look like white people to you, but they'll look Japanese to a Japanese person, short of using very obvious, possibly offensive identifiers to make it very obvious just what race the character is supposed to be.

 

[kaioshade]

Something i was talking about some friends with, and wanted to get some opinions.

Is it whitewashing if the movie in question is a complete remake? or how much of the original movie has to be changed before it is considered whitewashing for changing the characters?

It is something i am genuinely curious about.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

To be fair, anime characters with the triangle nose and chin with giant eyes just look like weird stylized monsters. I think the ethnicity of most animes is whatever you read into on a personal level unless the plot says specifically that they are something specific. They act almost like hollow vessels, similar to how sonic is a character but has no specific ethnicity, but still portrays all the traits of a human being.

Weird stylized monsters that are meant to portray that specific culture's default. If you draw a stick figure in America it will be seen as a White man, unless you draw a skirt on it, then it's a White woman. The Japanese drew Goku, Light, etc. with the specific intention of allowing the intended Japanese audience to self-insert themselves into the characters interacting with environments and fantasy cultures that were heavily influenced by their own, real-world Japanese culture.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Worst problem this movie had was being boring. Painfully so.

Scarlet Johansson is an unbelievably bad actor, but her looks made her acting "abilities" a moot point

I can't think of any movie she's been in where she wasn't horrible, but she continues to get any role she wants

 

[Haly]

Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent, from the golden era of animated superhero cartoons.

Nobody could mistake either of these characters for Asian, despite their extremely thin eyes.

And yet.

Obviously Caucasian, as you can see from her very large Caucasian eyes, as Caucasians are known to have.