Support NeoGAF

[kaizenkko]

To commemorate 100 days until its release on October 2, Sucker Punch Productions and SIE recently published a State of Play gameplay trailer for Ghost of Yotei, their upcoming open-world action-adventure succeeding 2020's Ghost of Tsushima. Following the release of the trailer, Automaton Japan talked to Ghost of Yotei co-directors Nate Fox and Jason Connell about what they learned from developing Ghost of Tsushima, and how they utilized that knowledge to improve the gameplay in Yotei.

Fox explains that Ghost of Tsushima still hold a special place in their hearts, however, he admits that the game suffered from some problems with the pacing of the exploration and minigame segments of the game. The developers received feedback about some of the gameplay elements feeling too repetitive and monotonous. 'Tsushima has various minigames, but sadly some of them – especially the one where you follow a fox to a hidden shrine – don't have much variety and end up feeling like a chore. We felt this from the player feedback as well," Fox detailed.

However, it seems like the development team has taken all the feedback into consideration in order to make Ghost of Yotei a more dynamic experience than its predecessor. Fox comments, "Ghost of Yotei improves [the minigame] segments in a sense that we won't be making players go through the same thing all over again whenever their curiosity leads them to encountering new secrets during exploration. We've prepared different kinds of outcomes that could go beyond the player's expectations. We believe that the beauty of open-world games is in the exploration, so we were determined to offer players a diverse experience ."

As revealed in the State of Play trailer, Ghost of Yotei introduces a "Clue Card" system to the series. While the full details haven't been revealed yet, it seems like the new mechanic allows you to keep track of the possible branching adventures and is designed to lead the player through the story in a way that suits their playstyle the best. As Fox and Connell say that they wanted to create "an open-world game that lets you drive your own experiences," it appears that the player will be playing a big role in how the adventure unfolds. While Yotei will inherit iconic side-activities like bamboo-strikes from Tsushima, the sequel will introduce new unique minigame options such as first-person Sumi-e painting or a coin-flicking game inspired by Ohajiki, a traditional children's game. Overall, it sounds like Ghost of Yotei will be keeping many elements of its predecessor while allowing for more diverse (and less-repetitive) open-world exploration.

Ghost of Yotei’s open-world activities will be less repetitive than Tsushima’s, directors say. “We won’t make the players do the same things over and over again.” - AUTOMATON WEST

Automaton talked to Ghost of Yotei creative directors about how they improved the exploration gameplay since Tsushima.

automaton-media.com

 

[CLW]

Look I LOVED the 1st game but ANY game longer than 20 hours is going to have a TON of repetitive tasks/missions

 

[Flabagast]

I am 100% sure it will be the same approach, even state of play showed it

 

[Inanilmaz]

 

[Denton]

Look I LOVED the 1st game but ANY game longer than 20 hours is going to have a TON of repetitive tasks/missions

Not any. I played Fallout New Vegas, Witcher 3, RDR2, Cyberpunk, KCD1 and 2 each for over 100 hours and they never felt repetetive, because all their quests and missions are handcrafted.

Ubisoft/Guerilla/SuckerPunch school of design is filled with repetitive busywork though, yes. So I will reserve judgement for now. Would like to be pleasantly surprised by Yotei.

 

[Lokaum D+]

 

[diffusionx]

Look I LOVED the 1st game but ANY game longer than 20 hours is going to have a TON of repetitive tasks/missions

I'm not sure this is always true but it's a good point, either you like the game or you don't. If you do, it's a great "gameplay loop", if you don't, it's repetitive.

 

[Topher]

Nice. Looking forward to it.

 

[StereoVsn]

Not any. I played Fallout New Vegas, Witcher 3, RDR2, Cyberpunk, KCD1 and 2 each for over 100 hours and they never felt repetetive, because all their quests and missions are handcrafted.

Ubisoft/Guerilla/SuckerPunch school of design is filled with repetitive busywork though, yes. So I will reserve judgement for now. Would like to be pleasantly surprised by Yotei.

Cyberpunk has a metric ton of repetitive randomly generated activities. They are all over the map.

 

[Fake]

 

[SlimySnake]

lol Zelda ToTK has like a 150 shrines and none of them feel like you are repeating the same shit over and over again because the game has multiple systems that the devs can use to create good level design.

These guys dont do that. They invest all of their time creating a big massive barren open world and an admittedly above average combat system. but any time you are not in combat, the game turns into press up on the joystick either on horseback or climbing.

It's 2025 and none of these studios have figured out that you dont need mini games. You need systems. You need mechanics outside of combat. it's why Death stranding works so well, and why RDR2 and ubisoft open world games feel so basic. There is nothing to do other than combat.

Action adventure games have to have adventure elements. Otherwise just pretend you are DMC or Ninja Gaiden and just make an action game. Adventure typically means puzzles. Not mini games. Make me think. Make me do something thats not simply following a fox or completing a QTE.

You cant just set a game in an open world and just build side quests that take you from place to place followed by a cutscene and then one combat section later, call it a day. Do more.

 

[Xtib81]

Instead of following 50 foxes. We'll only follow 25.

 

[R6Rider]

Instead of following 50 foxes. We'll only follow 25.

"We've reduced the number of foxes by half."

"Also, we made each fox event twice as long."

 

[Zacfoldor]

Wait your telling me they improved the game?

 

[Flabagast]

lol Zelda ToTK has like a 150 shrines and none of them feel like you are repeating the same shit over and over again because the game has multiple systems that the devs can use to create good level design.

These guys dont do that. They invest all of their time creating a big massive barren open world and an admittedly above average combat system. but any time you are not in combat, the game turns into press up on the joystick either on horseback or climbing.

It's 2025 and none of these studios have figured out that you dont need mini games. You need systems. You need mechanics outside of combat. it's why Death stranding works so well, and why RDR2 and ubisoft open world games feel so basic. There is nothing to do other than combat.

Action adventure games have to have adventure elements. Otherwise just pretend you are DMC or Ninja Gaiden and just make an action game. Adventure typically means puzzles. Not mini games. Make me think. Make me do something thats not simply following a fox or completing a QTE.

You cant just set a game in an open world and just build side quests that take you from place to place followed by a cutscene and then one combat section later, call it a day. Do more.

Agree, also adding that one way to make the Ubi like formula still work somehow is to craft narratives so compelling and full of twists that it's still engaging to do the side content, even if core gameplay is kinda stale. This is the CDPR way. But Sucker Punch / Ubisoft are leagues behind on that front.

 

[Trilobit]

Gosh, I hated that yellow bird so much. It completely ruined any exploration.

 

[mayham2199]

Good. I thought about getting the plat but the Mongul camps were a PIA so I decided not to.

 

[Sebastian1295]

Btw you don't have to do all of the content in an open world games folks. The content is their if you want to do it, but this game isn't going to force you to do it. Every open world game nowadays has filler/bloat but it dosen't mean you have to do any of it if you don't want too.

 

[cormack12]

There are now only ten foxes.
In other news, we have added
10 rabbits
10 badgers
10 doggo

Much variety. So reward.

Tbh they were so quick it was only really late end game they bugged me. The birds were more of a pain in the ass I thought.

 

[Sebastian1295]

lol Zelda ToTK has like a 150 shrines and none of them feel like you are repeating the same shit over and over again because the game has multiple systems that the devs can use to create good level design.

These guys dont do that. They invest all of their time creating a big massive barren open world and an admittedly above average combat system. but any time you are not in combat, the game turns into press up on the joystick either on horseback or climbing.

It's 2025 and none of these studios have figured out that you dont need mini games. You need systems. You need mechanics outside of combat. it's why Death stranding works so well, and why RDR2 and ubisoft open world games feel so basic. There is nothing to do other than combat.

Action adventure games have to have adventure elements. Otherwise just pretend you are DMC or Ninja Gaiden and just make an action game. Adventure typically means puzzles. Not mini games. Make me think. Make me do something thats not simply following a fox or completing a QTE.

You cant just set a game in an open world and just build side quests that take you from place to place followed by a cutscene and then one combat section later, call it a day. Do more.

ToTK also has 1000 korok seeds which are pointless filler content that adds 0 to the experience and the world that is a copy and paste mostly from breath of the wild in terms of on foot exploration. If you're going to label those criticisms towards ghost of yotei then you shouldn't be brushing off ToTK's issues as well.

 

[SlimySnake]

ToTK also has 1000 korok seeds which are pointless filler content that adds 0 to the experience and the world that is a copy and paste mostly from breath of the wild in terms of on foot exploration. If you're going to label those criticisms towards ghost of yotei then you shouldn't be brushing off ToTK's issues as well.

Where did i brush off its criticisms?

 

[FoxMcChief]

Sure bro, we totally believe you.

 

[Melfice7]

 

[Zacfoldor]

ToTK also has 1000 korok seeds which are pointless filler content that adds 0 to the experience and the world that is a copy and paste mostly from breath of the wild in terms of on foot exploration. If you're going to label those criticisms towards ghost of yotei then you shouldn't be brushing off ToTK's issues as well.

To be fair I've played botw and totk for hundreds of hours and never intentionally collected a bullshit korok seed.

In Ghosts of Tsushima I guess you could skip all the repetitive tasks, but there would be nothing left to do but the main story.

So I guess in Zelda the repetitive stuff was extra that you could skip but I doubt most people skip it in Ghosts of Tsushima. I'm sure you could drag Elden Ring into this as well.

All that said, and remember I never collected them, I'm VERY surprised Nintendo baked in repetitive seed collection. I would assume in a Nintendo game they would at least have different puzzles for every seed. That surprises me a bit that you say they were repetitive. I expect better from Nintendo. Hoping from Yotai too. So seeds share puzzles in TotK?

 

[Fbh]

That's good to hear, since one of the big issues with Tsushima was how repetitive it got.
Though personally I thought the actual side quests were even more repetitive than the minigames. Like 90% of them are either following some tracks or following some characters and then fighting the same handful of mongols again and again. Hopefully there's more variety this time around.

 

[cormack12]

especially the one where you follow a fox to a hidden shrine – don't have much variety and end up feeling like a chore. We felt this from the player feedback as well," Fox detailed.

These developer self inserts are getting crazy as well

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

 

[lughnasadh123]

why RDR2 and ubisoft open world games feel so basic.

 

[TropicanaTwista]

Cyberpunk has a metric ton of repetitive randomly generated activities. They are all over the map.

Came to say this. I've only got about 10 hours in cyberpunk and I've already done a ton of repetitive missions. I think I've literally done 10 "kill the cyber psycho" types already and I haven't even scratched the service of the game overall.


In short, essentially every open world game ever is repetitive. Near impossible not to be

 

[miller152]

Came to say this. I've only got about 10 hours in cyberpunk and I've already done a ton of repetitive missions. I think I've literally done 10 "kill the cyber psycho" types already and I haven't even scratched the service of the game overall.


In short, essentially every open world game ever is repetitive. Near impossible not to be

Nothing wrong with repetitive side content, as long as it's fun and progression is not locked behind it (gang wars in San Andreas).

I always find it weird when I see criticisms like "got burned out clearing the map of all side content, bad game". Just, don't do it? In any case, I seriously doubt this game has somehow solved this long-standing issue. Probably just less fox chasing and haiku writing, more randomly generated activities.

 

[kaizenkko]

lol Zelda ToTK has like a 150 shrines and none of them feel like you are repeating the same shit over and over again because the game has multiple systems that the devs can use to create good level design.

These guys dont do that. They invest all of their time creating a big massive barren open world and an admittedly above average combat system. but any time you are not in combat, the game turns into press up on the joystick either on horseback or climbing.

It's 2025 and none of these studios have figured out that you dont need mini games. You need systems. You need mechanics outside of combat. it's why Death stranding works so well, and why RDR2 and ubisoft open world games feel so basic. There is nothing to do other than combat.

Action adventure games have to have adventure elements. Otherwise just pretend you are DMC or Ninja Gaiden and just make an action game. Adventure typically means puzzles. Not mini games. Make me think. Make me do something thats not simply following a fox or completing a QTE.

You cant just set a game in an open world and just build side quests that take you from place to place followed by a cutscene and then one combat section later, call it a day. Do more.

Well, in my view, the strengths of Ghost of Tsushima are its art style, atmosphere, and cinematic combat. I believe the open world should be used to enhance those strengths.

 

[viveks86]

It's true! Now when you slice some bamboo to increase your resolve, you may randomly get some splinter in your eye. And then you would have to go the the local medic, who may prescribe some herbal tea that will cause you to hallucinate and meet Jin Sakai to unlock a sensuous, trippy romance side quest!

 

[semiconscious]

it'd be nice if true. unfortunately, i won't be there day 1 to find out...

 

[Alex11]

It's 2025 and none of these studios have figured out that you dont need mini games. You need systems. You need mechanics outside of combat. it's why Death stranding works so well, and why RDR2 and ubisoft open world games feel so basic. There is nothing to do other than combat.

I loved the 1st Death Stranding, but it's as repetitive as any of them. You got the enemy camps where they spawn in the exact same spot indefinitely, the orders are all the same, except the story ones. Yeah, it's fun, but it's repetitive all the same.
If it wasn't made by Kojima and for the batshit nonsense story the 2nd one wouldn't have been played nearly as much as it is.

I think "repetitive" is a wrong term used for any game, sometimes it seems it's just used poorly and/or unfairly, when people don't like the studio, the story, the gameplay or whatever thing they don't like about a game. Eledn Ring is repetitive, bosses, locations, but it's fun as hell.
IMO the only games that seem to be a bit less repetitive are visual novels, where the gameplay is minimal or none at all and multiplayer because of randomness.

 

[Rush2112]

 

[coachmcguirk91]

I loved the 1st Death Stranding, but it's as repetitive as any of them. You got the enemy camps where they spawn in the exact same spot indefinitely, the orders are all the same, except the story ones. Yeah, it's fun, but it's repetitive all the same.
If it wasn't made by Kojima and for the batshit nonsense story the 2nd one wouldn't have been played nearly as much as it is.

I think "repetitive" is a wrong term used for any game, sometimes it seems it's just used poorly and/or unfairly, when people don't like the studio, the story, the gameplay or whatever thing they don't like about a game. Eledn Ring is repetitive, bosses, locations, but it's fun as hell.
IMO the only games that seem to be a bit less repetitive are visual novels, where the gameplay is minimal or none at all and multiplayer because of randomness.

100% this. Games like Assassin's Creed feel so stale because they repeatedly have very mediocre combat in all of their games. As if Ubisoft execs believe gamers are incapable of a combat system that involves any depth. If the combat is good, repeatedly clearing out outposts/bandit camps is not much of a problem and is actually enjoyable throughout

GOT has solid combat, but its nothing amazing. It just feels great in the context of Assassin Creed games. Hopefully Yotei builds off of Tsushima's combat. Having the ability to access 4 different weapons at any time seems like a great evolution on the first game. Imo, how well combat is implemented decides whether Yotei is good or great

 

[ReBurn]

If true that would be great.

 

[Poppinfresh]

This is largely the problem with open-world games. Beyond the main quest and a few side-quests, you are essentially doing the same handful of activities over and over again.

I'm playing through TOTK on Switch 2 right now, and as good as the game is, the map is full of the same 10 or so activities, repeated over and over again.

Hoping that this is one of the areas AI can improve games - AI developed quests and dialog "on the fly" for a lot of open world content.

 

[digital_ghost]

Instead of following 50 foxes. We'll only follow 25.

 

[Durin]

That's good the hear...I'm hoping the actual execution will be there. If so, I'll probably pick it up.

I'd like to trust them, but I remember Bioware specifically saying their open-world side-quest design in Dragon Age: Inquisition was going to be Witcher 3 quality...and then we got MMO fetch/kill X nonsense for quite a bit of it.

 

[Alex11]

100% this. Games like Assassin's Creed feel so stale because they repeatedly have very mediocre combat in all of their games. As if Ubisoft execs believe gamers are incapable of a combat system that involves any depth. If the combat is good, repeatedly clearing out outposts/bandit camps is not much of a problem and is actually enjoyable throughout

Yeah, up until Shadows, I hated every fight in AC, especially the older games, where the AI would come at you one at a time, lol. I admit I like the gameplay in Shadows, and I'm being objective, I really don't care for Ubi or AC series, it's nothing groundbreaking, but fuck me, they needed 500 games to finally make a decent combat system.

GOT has solid combat, but its nothing amazing. It just feels great in the context of Assassin Creed games. Hopefully Yotei builds off of Tsushima's combat. Having the ability to access 4 different weapons at any time seems like a great evolution on the first game. Imo, how well combat is implemented decides whether Yotei is good or great

IMO what GOT has better than AC is the atmosphere and the overall quality. The combat, I don't care for it that much, it has that everyone attacking you one by one that I hate, but it's atmospheric, cinematic.

 

[SILKYSMOOTH30FPS]

Instead of saying something that every dev would say just so you buy the game, he should have given multiple examples of what he meant. Because taking a camp that has 2 mini bosses and one boss instead of just the boss is still as repetitive and boring. Not expecting the improvement to be any better than like a tiny 10%. Don't think they can make interesting side content in a game like this.

 

[kevboard]

lol Zelda ToTK has like a 150 shrines and none of them feel like you are repeating the same shit over and over again because the game has multiple systems that the devs can use to create good level design.

therein lies the issue with shallow game mechanics.

in Tsushima so many things are automated or highly context sensitive that it's not really possible to create all that interesting level design.
like even the "platforming" moments when you have to get up to a shrine on a steep hill on the seashore, or along a steep cliff. all these really are are following a very obvious path and pressing R2 whenever the R2 button prompt comes up.
jumping is half automated as you'll be not only corrected in terms of direction but also your jump distance is automated to whatever is currently needed.

so in the end all you really do that could be considered skill based there is move the camera around to follow the correct path, because I guess it is possible to miss the market grappling spots if you don't look towards the right direction...

 

[Memati187]

Funny thing they say not doing one thing over and over again, yet all of these morons try to feed us with the same garbage and woke shit over and over again. Fuck this shit, fuck them for rejecting karen fukuhara over this so called delusional "actress".

At the very moment they decided to hire an activist over an actual talented actress, I was out. Another sony studio fucking up.

I hope all the asian studios step up their game even further as the generation goes and overthrow these morons.

 

[Bernardougf]

I'm not sure this is always true but it's a good point, either you like the game or you don't. If you do, it's a great "gameplay loop", if you don't, it's repetitive.

Its not that simple.. I loved Hogwards legacy, but after 2/3 of the game I was bored to death, the gameplay eventually becomes repetitive all becomes repetitive and I saw myself wishing for the fucking game to end.

Ill still say its a very good game, even more for Potter fans like me. But holy shit its too long.

Imho aside from some very few examples, most openworld 30/40+ hour games are artificially bloated experiences that almost always overstay its welcome.

 

[Loomy]

Not any. I played Fallout New Vegas, Witcher 3, RDR2, Cyberpunk, KCD1 and 2 each for over 100 hours and they never felt repetetive, because all their quests and missions are handcrafted.

Ubisoft/Guerilla/SuckerPunch school of design is filled with repetitive busywork though, yes. So I will reserve judgement for now. Would like to be pleasantly surprised by Yotei.

We must have played very different games.

 

[kunonabi]

ToTK also has 1000 korok seeds which are pointless filler content that adds 0 to the experience and the world that is a copy and paste mostly from breath of the wild in terms of on foot exploration. If you're going to label those criticisms towards ghost of yotei then you shouldn't be brushing off ToTK's issues as well.

Don't forget the sign building.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Don't forget the sign building.

You couldn't walk 5 feet without running into that sign fucker!

 

[DeepSpace5D]

Playing the Director's Cut now, this is good news to read. I actually think the "Tales of Tsushima" side quests are varied and interesting in the first game. I've played lots of different scenarios like a regular guy who stole the armor of a fallen samurai and is using it as stolen valor to have his own estate full of women, to rumors of a monster killing people at night in a forest that needed to be investigated. The side quests are fun with good stories and interesting premises.

But the little side activities like the fox dens, bamboo strikes, haikus, hot springs, etc. are fine for a while, but can start to feel monotonous. They are kinda necessary for the stat upgrades they provide though so you feel obligated to do them. I also don't care much for the wind guidance system if I'm being honest. I find myself just constantly swiping up on the touchpad to check the wind direction and it becomes a minor annoyance after a while.

So it's good to know they have evaluated the shortcomings of the first game to improve the sequel. It's to be expected though. Like I have said before, Sucker Punch always makes a fun game, and they have a great track record of improving upon things with their second game in a series.

 

[panda-zebra]

Pretty much my biggest criticism of the original game and the main reason I couldn't bring myself to finish it, despite going back several times. Such a chore. It was one of the most formulaic, dull and lacking "open world"s ever conceived, despite how pretty and cinematic it was at times.

These comments, however, do nothing to convince me to buy this new game though, 'cause I play this stuff to be surprised at every turn, to stumble on crazy, intriguing or ridiculous scenarios and characters - it's all about the discovery and eff all to do with a contrived critical path that I just know I won't be the least bit interested in engaging with and where 95% of dev efforts will have been deployed. It's not just repetitive side content that's lacking in Tsushima, it's the whole design philosophy and that won't be drastically changing. End of the day it'll be yet another Sony story-driven production off the conveyor, and I've had my fill... This game will never have what I'm looking for and will always rely heavily on the main story, banal levelling and checklists where the end result will be a whole that's less than the sum of its parts.