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Gorilla killed after dragging child at Cincinnati Zoo

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Zocano

Member
I find it weird that people can't comprehend certain people having intense attachments to their pets. And creating a dozen hypotheticals to determine where they draw the line seems futile.

Going to quote this poster because I think their point is very succinct.

That's not hat interesting a quandary actually. Of course one would save their own child over their own dog. You'd hope.

The point of people saying they value their dog over a stranger's child is understandable even if you don't agree.

I'm not a dog owner, but I get it. It's a member of the family. I get that feeling. I just hope that if there's a fire and someone's dog and my kid were trapped inside, that a rescuer would prioritise my kid over the dog, owner included. But you know, everyone has their own priority.

These kinds of discussions are futile though. Because beliefs are beliefs. People would like to argue rationality and logic behind their reasoning, but sometimes there isn't one, and that's ok.

I mean, would you prioritise your kid over someone else's? Of course. Would you prioritise your kid over someone else's YOUNGER kid? Over yourself? the list goes on and on, and everyone will have a different response to each one. Who is right? No-one. Everyone. you couldn't say, really.
 

Vagabundo

Member
Cutting off part of yourself to feed your dog is pretty far.

But I agree these hypothetical scenarios are stupid. Would I cut off my leg to feed my starving kid? I don't know. It's a stupid scenario.

I'm pretty sure most people would kill the family dog to feed yourself and a baby.

I find it weird that people can't comprehend certain people having intense attachments to their pets. And creating a dozen hypotheticals to determine where they draw the line seems futile.

Going to quote this poster because I think their point is very succinct.

I have a dog. I've very attached to him. Its not hard to comprehend. My difficulty lies with people ranking an animal above a human life.
 

taoofjord

Member
Or just not have zoos. Put your granny in a zoo, bet she'd like it.

(Serious situation. Let's put you or your family in a zoo. Wasn't too long ago we did that with fellow humans of a different race for some people's amusement).

LEt's just get rid of zoos and actually help all of these animal species flourish for real out in the wild. Eradicate poachers and illegal traders with the same zest we treat terrorists, that might quickly sort it out, so we don't need zoos and to marvel at one of the last few hundred of a species left on planet Earth.

We're pathetic.

A responsible zoo is invaluable to the future of animal welfare. Getting rid of zoos would only further distance people from wildlife that needs protecting.

If you want to actually help animals then donate to something like 96 Elephants or your local zoo.

Well to be fair, the gorilla was in his enclosure. The kid ended up in it. Its not like the gorilla was on the loose

The blame can go to both parties here.

So you're blaming a wild animal for being wild?

The parents screwed up but in the end it's as likely bad timing as it was negligence on the parents. The point is no one here knows and even if we did, accidents happen no matter how careful a parent you are. Ask your mother or father how many close calls you had as a kid. Every kid has them.
 
I find it weird that people can't comprehend certain people having intense attachments to their pets. And creating a dozen hypotheticals to determine where they draw the line seems futile.

Going to quote this poster because I think their point is very succinct.

But that's the point. See, from the other end of the scope, it's horrible that someone would choose animal life over human life, and what's happening here are those problems who choose that decision are being judged for their beliefs.

It's just as easy to sit here and say, it's weird that some people can't comprehend that people aren't perfect and mistakes happen and maybe judging parents and their parenting skills is something that is a complex issue that one can't really judge on if they are 100% sure with certainty, they could have prevented it themselves.

Now the dog owner's can have their chance in the spotlight to really understand that maybe, just maybe, the way they feel about their dog, just might have a different reaction if it was their dog that fell into the pit and the zoo had to make the choice to kill the gorilla because it's their dog over another life. Unless animal to animal death is the exception to this line of thinking.
 
Also want to add that the poster above you is correct as well. Drugging someone under is a very delicate science.

Just tranquing someone randomly has a good chance of outright killing them, or at least severely damaging their system.

It's why the specialists that put you under in operations are usually paid the most if not just as much as the surgeon themselves.

It's also why law enforcement will carry Tasers and batons, or specialist using beanbag shooters and pepper spray etc. Receiving a shock from a Taser, or literally a beanbag strong enough to theoretically break your ribs at close range is significantly safer for the target as a result.

And yeah it really is tragic, and because a gorilla could literally pull a human adult into pieces with the same ease that you tear paper (roughly), it was just too much of a risk to tranq it, especially when the initial injection might sting it and fling it into a rage.
in other words nathan drake was a savage even when he was gunning guards down with a tranq gun...I kid, sorta. That was basically the reason I brought it up anyway.

But yeah, I see your point. Killing the gorilla seemed like the only way to bring the kid back to his mother. I'm guessing the zoo attempted their "gorilla whisperers" to no avail as well.
lol, but god (uncapitalized) is dumb and so r people who believe in it.
umm...that's pretty harsh. I don't think you understand the magnitude of how offensive this is.
 
What a bad mom.
Gorilla had to die due to idiocy.

Yep, idiocy on all sides.
A) Why could the child climb under the railings? Zoo should have made sure it was impossible to climb over or under.
B) Why wasn't the child kept under control? If you know he wonders off put him on a leash. He clearly cannot be trusted.
C) Why isn't there a non-lethal way to detain the animals? Sure they said about tranquilizers but might as well overdose him if you are planning to kill him anyway.

I blame the mom and zoo both equally.
 

blakep267

Member
So guys, last African rhino or an illegal poacher?

Is human life more important?
I'd say that's more the human commuting a crime that has deadly consequences since they are guarded by men with arms. If a guy is walking in Africa and comes across the last rhino and it's going to gore him, the. You have to put it down
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
how can you compare 10,000 happy pet owners to one devastated parent?

Probably because I'm human and that's what evolution has done to me. It's made me put my species' well being ahead of others.

What're you saying? You would have no problem making that decision?

So guys, last African rhino or an illegal poacher?

Is human life more important?

Pop the poacher. That's different though.
 
It's not hard to understand. People have better emotional attachment with their pets than random strangers
Not just random strangers, but a child. Actual people are saying they'd save their family pet over a child in danger. If you can't understand why lots of people find this fucked, then I guess the conversation is over.
 

faridmon

Member
what has this thread descended into?

It was a terrible event and the zoo did what they had too.

Only on GAF will these topics delve into Humans Vs Animals priority ratio

I am enjoying it though.

That gorilla wasnt going to do shit to that kid. They are smart enough to know that it was a kid and were not a threat.

Wat

I mean would you leave your kid inside a cage with a wild Gorilla?

Would you take the chance to see if they are smart enough to not harm the kid or not?
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
C) Why isn't there a non-lethal way to detain the animals? Sure they said about tranquilizers but might as well overdose him if you are planning to kill him anyway.

He's a big dude, being hit with tranquilizers and being functional for a few minutes might end bad for the kid. They were just making sure.

what has this thread descended into?

It was a terrible event and the zoo did what they had too.

I think it's very interesting and is the reason I come to forums like this.
 

Slacker

Member
Yep, idiocy on all sides.
A) Why could the child climb under the railings? Zoo should have made sure it was impossible to climb over or under.
B) Why wasn't the child kept under control? If you know he wonders off put him on a leash. He clearly cannot be trusted.
C) Why isn't there a non-lethal way to detain the animals? Sure they said about tranquilizers but might as well overdose him if you are planning to kill him anyway.

I blame the mom and zoo both equally.

Saying "why isn't there a non-lethal way to detain the animals" is like saying, "Why hasn't the zoo developed a mind control ray that makes the animals do whatever they want all the time?" There isn't a non-lethal way to detain the animals because it's simply not possible.
 

faridmon

Member
Yep, idiocy on all sides.
A) Why could the child climb under the railings? Zoo should have made sure it was impossible to climb over or under.
B) Why wasn't the child kept under control? If you know he wonders off put him on a leash. He clearly cannot be trusted.
C) Why isn't there a non-lethal way to detain the animals? Sure they said about tranquilizers but might as well overdose him if you are planning to kill him anyway.

I blame the mom and zoo both equally.

umm, you do realise that losing a kid for split moment happens, right?

I mean we are humans not robots, a single second of our attention being diverted and worse have happend.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Eh these debates have gone on since time immemorial on antisocial nerd forums; nothing new is really being said here. Just the standard wow is humanity, humanity is a virus, etc stuff.

Eh, thanks? Not sure what that has to do with anything. I still find it interesting and it's still the reason I come to forums like these.
 
He's a big dude, being hit with tranquilizers and being functional for a few minutes might end bad for the kid. They were just making sure.

I guess this is true. But still points A and B are valid. There should have been absolutely no way for the kid to fall into it. Plus kid said "I am gonna go in there". Parent should have not ignored kid doing what he said he was gonna do. Get a leash. Almost endangered gorilla had to die because bad parenting and bad enclosure.
Edit: If I said what the kid said, my parents would have responded "if the gorilla doesn't kill you, I will." That would have made me probably reconsider.

I don't really think there was any other way to get out of this situation after it got to that point. Silverback gorillas are STRONG and can go into frenzy if agitated by tranquilizers.
Yeah really I am not upset with how they handled it but I am upset the situation happened in the first place. You should not be able to fall into it.

I agree with you! Just pointing out C, that's why I isolated it.
I am glad we are on the same page.
I understand giving some sympathy to the adult but a zoo is a dangerous area so you have to take precautions. Sometimes you have to restrain the 4 year old.
 

njr

Member
I don't really think there was any other way to get out of this situation after it got to that point. Silverback gorillas are STRONG and can go into frenzy if agitated by tranquilizers.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I guess this is true. But still points A and B are valid. There should have been absolutely no way for the kid to fall into it. Plus kid said "I am gonna go in there". Parent should have not ignored kid doing what he said he was gonna do. Get a leash. Almost endangered gorilla had to die because bad parenting and bad enclosure.
Edit: If I said what the kid said, my parents would have responded "if the gorilla doesn't kill you, I will." That would have made me probably reconsider.

I agree with you! Just pointing out C, that's why I isolated it.
 
Is it not as simple as putting yourself in the parents shoes? (I know a lot of people here aren't parents but use your imagination) Say it was your kid that got in there ( don't say it could never happen ) You are gonna tell me that you would rather them tranquilize the Gorilla and potentially further endanger the child? I don't think one of you could honestly say you would rather have that.

It's a tragedy 100% and that was a beautiful creature that unfortunately came to an end because of Gorilla is going to Gorilla. But it was still an accident.
 
It should be impossible to get into a dangerous animal enclosure, more work needs to be done on that front. It's also really poor parenting to not have your eyes on a young child 100% of the time in situations where potential danger is present.

Ultimately I agree with the decision to kill the Gorilla, but it should never have come to that in the first place.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Unfortunate. This is why there shouldnt be zoos period.
An accident that happens so rarely as to be a statistical blip is why we shouldn't have zoos?
Meanwhile, a couple of gorilla's are killed a week to feed rich people, and 7 kids a day are hospitalized due to electrical shock from tampering with an electrical outlet.
 
Is it not as simple as putting yourself in the parents shoes? (I know a lot of people here aren't parents but use your imagination) Say it was your kid that got in there ( don't say it could never happen ) You are gonna tell me that you would rather them tranquilize the Gorilla and potentially further endanger the child? I don't think one of you could honestly say you would rather have that.

It's a tragedy 100% and that was a beautiful creature that unfortunately came to an end because of Gorilla is going to Gorilla. But it was still an accident.

i think the problem we have is that a lot of the people posting in this thread do not have children
 
It should be impossible to get into a dangerous animal enclosure, more work needs to be done on that front. It's also really poor parenting to not have your eyes on a young child 100% of the time in situations where potential danger is present.

Ultimately I agree with the decision to kill the Gorilla, but it should never have come to that in the first place.
Agreed with everything you said.

I mean I cannot accidently get into the main bank of a casino.
It is sad when money is way more protected than animals in zoos.
 
After seeing the video and the speed at which the gorilla grab the child and dragged him through the water I believe the zoo had zero choice here but to shoot the gorilla unfortunately. The gorilla may have been trying to protect the child but the sheer power of it could have accidentally killed the child even if it was not its intention.

I personally think that all of the people screaming and shouting may have been a factor into why the gorilla felt he had to move the child and dragged him away at such speed. You can see him clearly looking around before hand wondering what all the noise for and probably became agitated.
 

Chococat

Member
umm, you do realise that losing a kid for split moment happens, right?

I mean we are humans not robots, a single second of our attention being diverted and worse have happend.

That right, remove personal responsibility from the parents. Blame the kid. Blame the zoo. But not the parent. They are complete innocent. I mean how can we expect an older, wiser, stronger, human being to keep control over weak, dependent, and simpleminded child?

It is this attitude way there is such a negativity toward kids in public. Parents want to be worshiped for thankless job they took upon themselves without criticism.

Sorry, the only parents that are worthy of praise are those who parent well. Or in the case of hellspawn, show the public that you really are trying and your sorry for disrupting their day. Even the most adamant child hater will show respect, and may even offer to help a parent in need.

Parents don't praise just for successfully for insert tab A into slot B.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
It amazes me how smart Gorillas are. I wonder what percentage of cages that kid could've fell into and survived. Surely a bear cage or a large feline cage wouldn't have ended so nicely for the kid, no?
 
if you're a zoo and a vast amount of your customers are going to be small children. When building an enclosure wouldn't your first thought be "could a child get through that?"

edit: your first thought would probably be could the animal get through that, second thought a child :D
 

Yrael

Member
The perspective of a zookeeper who has worked with gorillas:

I am going to try to clear up a few things that have been weighing on me about Harambe and the Cinci Zoo since I read the news this afternoon.

I have worked with Gorillas as a zookeeper while in my twenties (before children) and they are my favorite animal (out of dozens) that I have ever worked closely with. I am gonna go ahead and list a few facts, thoughts and opinions for those of you that aren't familiar with the species itself, or how a zoo operates in emergency situations.

Now Gorillas are considered 'gentle giants' at least when compared with their more aggressive cousins the chimpanzee, but a 400+ pound male in his prime is as strong as roughly 10 adult humans. What can you bench press? OK, now multiply that number by ten. An adult male silverback gorilla has one job, to protect his group. He does this by bluffing or intimidating anything that he feels threatened by.

Gorillas are considered a Class 1 mammal, the most dangerous class of mammals in the animal kingdom, again, merely due to their size and strength. They are grouped in with other apes, tigers, lions, bears, etc.

While working in an AZA accredited zoo with Apes, keepers DO NOT work in contact with them. Meaning they do NOT go in with these animals. There is always a welded mesh barrier between the animal and the humans.

In more recent decades, zoos have begun to redesign enclosures, removing all obvious caging and attempting to create a seamless view of the animals for the visitor to enjoy watching animals in a more natural looking habitat. *this is great until little children begin falling into exhibits* which of course can happen to anyone, especially in a crowded zoo-like setting.

I have watched this video over again, and with the silverback's postering, and tight lips, it's pretty much the stuff of any keeper's nightmares, and I have had MANY while working with them. This job is not for the complacent. Gorillas are kind, curious, and sometimes silly, but they are also very large, very strong animals. I always brought my OCD to work with me. checking and rechecking locks to make sure my animals and I remained separated before entering to clean.

I keep hearing that the Gorilla was trying to protect the boy. I do not find this to be true. Harambe reaches for the boys hands and arms, but only to position the child better for his own displaying purposes.

Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about. Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible. Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate. It was clear to me that he was reacting to the screams coming from the gathering crowd.

Harambe was most likely not going to separate himself from that child without seriously hurting him first (again due to mere size and strength, not malicious intent) Why didn't they use treats? well, they attempted to call them off exhibit (which animals hate), the females in the group came in, but Harambe did not. What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid!

They didn't use Tranquilizers for a few reasons, A. Harambe would've taken too long to become immobilized, and could have really injured the child in the process as the drugs used may not work quickly enough depending on the stress of the situation and the dose B. Harambe would've have drowned in the moat if immobilized in the water, and possibly fallen on the boy trapping him and drowning him as well.

Many zoos have the protocol to call on their expertly trained dart team in the event of an animal escape or in the event that a human is trapped with a dangerous animal. They will evaluate the scene as quickly and as safely as possible, and will make the most informed decision as how they will handle the animal.

I can't point fingers at anyone in this situation, but we need to really evaluate the safety of the animal enclosures from the visitor side. Not impeding that view is a tough one, but their should be no way that someone can find themselves inside of an animal's exhibit.

I know one thing for sure, those keepers lost a beautiful, and I mean gorgeous silverback and friend. I feel their loss with them this week. As educators and conservators of endangered species, all we can do is shine a light on the beauty and majesty of these animals in hopes to spark a love and a need to keep them from vanishing from our planet. Child killers, they are not. It's unfortunate for the conservation of the species, and the loss of revenue a beautiful zoo such as Cinci will lose. tragedy all around.
 

faridmon

Member
That right, remove personal responsibility from the parents. Blame the kid. Blame the zoo. But not the parent. They are complete innocent. I mean how can we expect an older, wiser, stronger, human being to keep control over weak, dependent, and simpleminded child?

It is this attitude way there is such a negativity toward kids in public. Parents want to be worshiped for thankless job they took upon themselves without criticism.

Sorry, the only parents that are worthy of praise are those who parent well. Or in the case of hellspawn, show the public that you really are trying and your sorry for disrupting their day. Even the most adamant child hater will show respect, and may even offer to help a parent in need.

Parents don't praise just for successfully for insert tab A into slot B.

Lol

Calm down.

I am not saying simply Parents should not be criticised when they are at fault, but situations such as losing the sight of kids do happen and the post I quoted just simply didn't evaluate the fact that ''kids on leash 24/7'' its downright impossible. Even parents who parent well, do make few blips here and there.
 

jmizzal

Member
There is a small wire fence and a section of bushes/shrubbery. At the top of the image (see below) you can see the rocks where the gorillas usually sit. Between those rocks and the bushes beyond the fence is the moat, which is usually about 15 to 20 feet deep (this is where the kid is seen in the video). It's a standard setup in a lot of zoos, with the expectation being that people wont just jump down into a gorilla pen.

The kid hopped the fence, wandered through the bushes, and then either climbed or fell down into the exhibit moat.

HAYd27b.png

Yea thats what I been saying, the kid didnt fall in the gorilla area like some reports have been saying, he went in there on his on power. Thats on the parent for allowing the kid to get that far away from you in a dangerous area and the Zoo for having that easy of access in a dangerous area.
 

dan2026

Member
It is utterly bizarre to me how a person could even accidentally fall into a dangerous animal enclosure.

All the enclosures I have been to in the UK are utterly fool proof, there is no way any person could get in.

I fully expect a huge lawsuit against this zoo for their careless, negligent, unsecured enclosure.
I mean yes the kid was a damn idiot. But kids are idiots. Thats was it has to be fool proof.
 

Slacker

Member
Now Gorillas are considered 'gentle giants' at least when compared with their more aggressive cousins the chimpanzee, but a 400+ pound male in his prime is as strong as roughly 10 adult humans. What can you bench press? OK, now multiply that number by ten.
Holy crap, these beasts can bench 100 pounds?
 

Chococat

Member
if you're a zoo and a vast amount of your customers are going to be small children. When building an enclosure wouldn't your first thought be "could a child get through that?"

No. There first thought is how to keep the animal from escaping/safety of the handlers. Second (now day, not a concern in the past) is design an environment to suppose the mental and physical health of the animal. Third is how the visitors can view the animal safely. Many enclosure depend on the intelligence of visitor not to violate the post rules in order to give clear views to the animals.

There is only so much safety you can add before visitors complain they can't see the animals. The compromise is zoo lower fences and the public promises not to jump over them.

You worried about kids getting into the exhibits? Most of the time they end up in the closures because of dumb ass parents like this:

stroller-on-fence.jpg


Can't find it now, but there was a case where the exhibit had an 6f+ chain link fence and the parent over the top so their kids could see better. Of course the kid fell in and they blamed the zoo.

How do you stop idiots like this? Age restrictions for kids? Intelligence test (for the parents). Electrified fences to keep the humans back? A guard at every pit writing tickets to violators?
 

jet1911

Member
There is a small wire fence and a section of bushes/shrubbery. At the top of the image (see below) you can see the rocks where the gorillas usually sit. Between those rocks and the bushes beyond the fence is the moat, which is usually about 15 to 20 feet deep (this is where the kid is seen in the video). It's a standard setup in a lot of zoos, with the expectation being that people wont just jump down into a gorilla pen.

The kid hopped the fence, wandered through the bushes, and then either climbed or fell down into the exhibit moat.

HAYd27b.png

Wow. A knee-high fence. The fuck is wrong with that zoo?
 

Poona

Member
The more I read and hear about this the more I get ticked off at the crowd screaming. Like shut up. They worsened the situation.

You see the other videos with the jersey zoo in 86 with the gorilla named Jambo and then the other video in 1995 at brookfield zoo with the gorilla Binti Jua and the crowds there are not in a frenzy. Sadly with all the yelling coming down into the pit would have agitated Harambe and shook him up.
 

Onemic

Member
An accident that happens so rarely as to be a statistical blip is why we shouldn't have zoos?
Meanwhile, a couple of gorilla's are killed a week to feed rich people, and 7 kids a day are hospitalized due to electrical shock from tampering with an electrical outlet.

It's not THE reason, just another reason on the million of others.
 

wachie

Member
I got a very angry and weird PM from this thread. I dont think any of my posts (on the first few pages) were deserving of it?

Some people in here are really weird and the discussion mirrors that.
 
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