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[uuaschbaer]

I hope they reached a sensible deal that can bring Greece back on track and force the Eurozone even closer together in a political/fiscal union.

Can you explain the difference between forced political union and the overthrow of countries to take away their sovereignty?

I honestly just want to know, "forced political union" sounds like a euphemism.

 

[persongr]

I used to think that was the case too. But the difference is that they can still be held accountable. The EU are not accountable and do not give a rat's ass about the fate of the Greek people.

I can't really understand what you're saying.

Would you prefer a ruined Greece for the next 10 years only to be able to point fingers at the politicians?

edit:

I'm trying to be positive and picture a scenario where the anal pounding at hand would include a modicum amount of lube.

After seeing Syriza's adventures in governance, I have the tiniest of the expectations. It seems to me that Greece is fucked either way.

It is.

 

[Theonik]

The lesson would be, walk the walk if you're going to talk the talk. In the end, it seems Greece is going to be even worse off than if they accepted the deal of the referendum. Now, there's going to be a political crisis in Greece.

The deal of the referendum was for an additional 5 months and bridge financing which would have undoubtedly ended up in a new program and these conditions.

I can't really understand what you're saying.

Would you prefer a ruined Greece for the next 10 years only to be able to point fingers at the politicians?

Yes. Because now you are getting a ruined Greece but no-one to point the finger to and the politicians are just insulating themselves with the boogeyman in Brussels. That has been a huge problem in this whole crisis.
Politicians emboldened themselves knowing they could pass the blame elsewhere.

 

[KingSnake]

there is propably no quote from you personally (thats why: "people" hang to campaigns) but we had some of those extreme comparisons in the last thread.

But you're a part of the "Germany is evil" hype train. This and the "Greeks are lazy!" stuff are both biased, won't help anyone and are far from beeing true.

If you can't find any quote from me about evil Nazi then I will kindly ask you to apologise or never reply to me. Thank you! Whatever are you fighting against on this forum I'm not interested in.

 

[persongr]

Yes. Because now you are getting a ruined Greece but no-one to point the finger to and the politicians are just insulating themselves with the boogeyman in Brussels. That has been a huge problem in this whole crisis.
Politicians emboldened themselves knowing they could pass the blame elsewhere.

It is stupid to confine the role of this government and that of the previous ones to just puppets. If you want so much to point fingers, point them at the cabinets who governed this mess of a country all these years - they are responsible, they should face the consequences.

I'm not saying Germany, Finland, the Eurozone in general and the IMF are not without responsibility. They are just not the ones to condemn.

 

[Madness]

The deal of the referendum was for an additional 5 months and bridge financing which would have undoubtedly ended up in a new program and these conditions.

How is that different from what I said? I said that the Greeks had rejected the referendum because they didn't accept the terms, to only accept even worse terms a week later. It's irrelevant if this would've eventually happened, I'm just saying, all this bluster, all this crisis, to only end up in an even worse position than you were... And for what then?

 

[oti]

I feel like the Greeks really want to change things this time, I hope they'll get through these tough times.

But I can not and will never forget how Germany acted in the last 24 hours. Without France this would've ended in a disaster for all of Europe because of them. Rebuilding "trust" will take a lot of time.

 

[Protome]

The sooner the UK exits this piece of shit, morally bankrupt institution the better.

Once again the Eurocrat elite, desperate to save face, have shown utter contempt for the citizens of a member country.

It won't be any point in the foreseeable future, thankfully.

 

[Nikodemos]

But I can not and will never forget how Germany acted in the last 24 hours. Without France this would've ended in a disaster for all of Europe because of them. Rebuilding "trust" will take a lot of time.

Frankly, to me this sounds more like a "good cop, bad cop" routine, and a cheap, transparent one at that.

 

[Joni]

I honestly just want to know, "forced political union" sounds like a euphemism.

I don't see where the 'forced' point is coming from. As for the difference, if you force it or you get it by taking away sovereignty, it indeed doesn't change anything. But honestly, I wouldn't mind forcing it.

 

[M°°nblade]

Yes. Because now you are getting a ruined Greece but no-one to point the finger to and the politicians are just insulating themselves with the boogeyman in Brussels. That has been a huge problem in this whole crisis.
Politicians emboldened themselves knowing they could pass the blame elsewhere.

Haha, sure. Even if Greece left the EU, do you really think greek politicians will be deemed accountable in 2025 with their 'illegal, illegitamte and odious' european and IMF debt narrative?

 

[War Peaceman]

The actions of the EU here have been the best argument against the EU, which is sad because I do like many of the things they do. Not this.

 

[Nikodemos]

The actions of the EU here have been the best argument against the EU, which is sad because I do like many of the things they do. Not this.

I'd say the best argument against the Eurozone. The Union itself is good, many of its founding principles are good, but the Eurozone quickly mutated into a freakish, all-consuming aberration.

 

[EloKa]

If you can't find any quote from me about evil Nazi then I will kindly ask you to apologise or never reply to me. Thank you! Whatever are you fighting against on this forum I'm not interested in.

yeah... no.
I've explained it already and you still don't care to read that original sentence or that I've never stated that you said such a thing. but whatever. #TeamBiased

 

[Dictator93]

The actions of the EU here have been the best argument against the EU, which is sad because I do like many of the things they do. Not this.

I am personally embarassed by Schäuble and the bunch.

What a bad day to be a greek citizen, what is the opposite aphorism for "having your cake and eating it too"?

 

[Nikodemos]

What a bad day to be a greek citizen, what is the opposite aphorism for "having your cake and eating it too"?

Getting forcibly reamed and having to provide the lube and condom yourself.

This is why the Commission is consistently great and the Eurogroup/Parliament suck nads.

Not so much the Parliament as the Council. Fucking shitshow.

 

[Funky Papa]

The actions of the EU here have been the best argument against the EU, which is sad because I do like many of the things they do. Not this.

The EU is generally fantastic when it operates at Euro-wide level. Problems tend to arise when member states concentrate their efforts on others or let their national interests dictate policies.

This is why the Commission is consistently great and the Eurogroup/Parliament suck nads.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Sooo, can finance GAF help, is this a good thing for the greeks or bad?

edit:

Nvm, just googled it

 

[Machspeed007]

I feel like the Greeks really want to change things this time, I hope they'll get through these tough times.

But I can not and will never forget how Germany acted in the last 24 hours. Without France this would've ended in a disaster for all of Europe because of them. Rebuilding "trust" will take a lot of time.

Good cop bad cop and all that..

 

[Ikael]

But at least they'd get to implement it in their own terms.

If anything, I am hoping for a Grexit only due to its pedagogical value. Yes, you can indeed recover your national soverignity and decide your own destiny. But it's not goin to be free, nor a pleasant ride, period, despite of what your politicians are trying to sell you.

I'm no fan of Pablito, but if you think that Podemos is anything like Syriza when it comes to economics, I have a bridge to sell you. Their allegiance is one of political interest over beliefs. Our economies are also massively different. That's some PP fear mongering.

Syriza is the PSOE redux, but with an actual party territorial structure that doesn't suck donkey balls. They might be "radicals" on a pan-European context, but then again all the Southern European left wing has been anti-liberal since its inception, so Podemos are absolutely moderate by our Spanish standards.

The EU is generally fantastic when it operates at Euro-wide level. Problems tend to arise when member states concentrate their efforts on others or let their national interests dictate policies.

This is why the Commission is consistently great and the Eurogroup/Parliament suck nads.

Yep, this is further proof that a true Europe-wide goverment body with the European citizenry acting as its ultimate soverign needs to happen , rather than keep it as a representation of different petty squabbling sovereign countries.

 

[freeofgreed]

What a fucking clown Tsipras is. What was even the point of that referendum?

 

[Walshicus]

The sooner the UK exits this piece of shit, morally bankrupt institution the better.

Once again the Eurocrat elite, desperate to save face, have shown utter contempt for the citizens of a member country.

In spite of every misstep in Greece, the EU has and still is a better guarantor (proportional to its own power) of English liberties and the needs of the English working class; especially now with fucking Tories in power.

You can bitch and moan at what's happening in Greece, but the fuckwads in Westminster have done no better when it comes to the failure that is Austerity.

 

[Calabi]

I dont get how stupid Yanos and Syriza have been.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/greece-brought-a-latte-to-a-gunfight.html

How did they think with no bargaining chips no leverage no alternative, they could just bargain there way to a new deal. Did they just think because we're the new guys smarter than the old guys they could game there way to a win. How did they not know who there dealing with? What in the past evidence was there that somehow things would now change.

It just boggles my mind what a bunch of cunting idiots Syriza have been. They've betrayed there country worse than the previous government. They would have been better off with the previous government. Well give you a referendum and you'll say no, but we'll concede to a worse deal and we wont prepare at all for the worse case scenario(leaving the Euro).

 

[Nikodemos]

Yep, this is further proof that a true Europe-wide goverment body with the European citizenry acting as its ultimate soverign needs to happen , rather than keep it as a representation of different petty squabbling sovereign countries.

They tried to do that several times during the Union's history by attempting to eliminate the Council, only for national leaders to (figuratively) come and beat them over the head with a shoe.

 

[Joni]

Oh wow, Syriza will even undo changes they made last year.

 

[Negotiator]

What a clown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-yofQVvSvU

At least he was a good actor...

 

[Theonik]

How is that different from what I said? I said that the Greeks had rejected the referendum because they didn't accept the terms, to only accept even worse terms a week later. It's irrelevant if this would've eventually happened, I'm just saying, all this bluster, all this crisis, to only end up in an even worse position than you were... And for what then?

The only thing it achieved was allow them to subvert democracy and pass these terms that they never could have otherwise passed and to survive in power. It's basically a coup.

It is stupid to confine the role of this government and that of the previous ones to just puppets. If you want so much to point fingers, point them at the cabinets who governed this mess of a country all these years - they are responsible, they should face the consequences.

I'm not saying Germany, Finland, the Eurozone in general and the IMF are not without responsibility. They are just not the ones to condemn.

Then we are in agreement I am not blaming the Eurozone as the only culprits at all or even the last couple of administrations though their actual say in fiscal policy has been nearnon-existent.

My point is exactly because they can point fingers elsewhere even if they know full well they are to blame they get to practically get away with murder. The EU is not interested in stopping them either. So to the point you made about not trusting your politicians to go at it alone, there really isn't that much difference.

Haha, sure. Even if Greece left the EU, do you really think greek politicians will be deemed accountable in 2025 with their 'illegal, illegitamte and odious' european and IMF debt narrative?

They won't. That was my point. Having them go at it alone is the only way to force them to act responsibly.

 

[KingSnake]

yeah... no.
I've explained it already and you still don't care to read that original sentence or that I've never stated that you said such a thing. but whatever. #TeamBiased

#teamBiased? Lol. You haven't even explained what's wrong in the statement "Germany made the proposal list and fought for them to the end", you noble fighter.

#teamThisIsNotSomeKindOfConsoleWar #seriousshit #understandingpolitics

 

[ICKE]

What a clown circus this has been. Syriza has achieved nothing in these past six months but total capitulation after financial distress. This is like George Costanza in Seinfeld holding out for less while burning through his last savings.

Unbelievable development, this agreement is basically a signal that the opposition was correct all along. I wonder how the electorate will react.

 

[PdotMichael]

Well, you could argue that Germany was like the only one which did a proposal.

Greece provided random stuff written on a hotel napkin or reused the proposal from the Eurogroup in June. At no point in the past months did Greece have a proposal which was ready to get greenlighted by the Eurogroup.

 

[M°°nblade]

They won't. That was my point. Having them go at it alone is the only way to force them to act responsibly.

That's no argument. Even if they go at it alone, that 320 billion € isn't going to magically disappear and they will still blame everything in the future on it.

This mess started back in the '90s when they weren't in the EU yet and they took no responsibility either.

A grexit isn't going to change irresponsible politicians into responsible ones.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

but the fuckwads in Westminster have done no better when it comes to the failure that is Austerity.

I'm sorry, I don't see the IMF and world bank being approached by the UK for a bailout...so your statement is clearly dogma driven bullshit.

You left wingers just have a visceral, pathological, class warfare hatred of the Tories that blinds you to everything that doesn't fit that hate filled narrative.

 

[Theonik]

Well, you could argue that Germany was like the only one which did a proposal.

Greece provided random stuff written on a hotel napkin or reused the proposal from the Eurogroup in June. At no point in the past months did Greece have a proposal which was ready to get greenlighted by the Eurogroup.

Except the French wrote this proposal but you know keep pushing that narrative.

This is why Merkel was pissed off at Hollande.

 

[PdotMichael]

Except the French wrote this proposal but you know keep pushing that narrative.

This is why Merkel was pissed off at Hollande.

"helped" was the official term.

And the point still stands, that Greece was never trying to change the narrative that the Eurogroup forces things on Greece instead of providing an own agenda for Greece's future.

 

[Kill3r7]

I dont get how stupid Yanos and Syriza have been.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/greece-brought-a-latte-to-a-gunfight.html

How did they think with no bargaining chips no leverage no alternative, they could just bargain there way to a new deal. Did they just think because we're the new guys smarter than the old guys they could game there way to a win. How did they not know who there dealing with? What in the past evidence was there that somehow things would now change.

It just boggles my mind what a bunch of cunting idiots Syriza have been. They've betrayed there country worse than the previous government. They would have been better off with the previous government. Well give you a referendum and you'll say no, but we'll concede to a worse deal and we wont prepare at all for the worse case scenario(leaving the Euro).

What bargaining chips? The only bargaining chip they have is default. Defaulting is theoretically easy to do but pulling the trigger and turning their country into a third world nation overnight is not an easy decision. The best thing the Greek government/people can do is prepare/plan for the inevitable default.

 

[Walshicus]

I'm sorry, I don't see the IMF and world bank being approached by the UK for a bailout...so your statement is clearly dogma driven bullshit.

You left wingers just have a visceral, pathological, class warfare hatred of the Tories that blinds you to everything that doesn't fit that hate filled narrative.

No, we just got a decade of lost growth in order to push Tory ideology. We didn't need Austerity and neither did Greece. Especially not to save fucking Bankers.

 

[KingSnake]

"helped" was the official term.

And the point still stands, that Greece was never trying to change the narrative that the Eurogroup forces things on Greece instead of providing an own agenda for Greece's future.

That's actually a valid point and the main failure of Tsipras. He never presented a proposal that would summarise Syriza's ideas regarding how Greece should go out of this situation. On the other hand it would have been rejected immediately. But still.

 

[M°°nblade]

No, we just got a decade of lost growth in order to push Tory ideology. We didn't need Austerity and neither did Greece. Especially not to save fucking Bankers.

You do really that without saving the banks, you'd lose your own money as well?

 

[Kathian]

No, we just got a decade of lost growth in order to push Tory ideology. We didn't need Austerity and neither did Greece. Especially not to save fucking Bankers.

Greece is different from Britain though. Austerity is choosing to reduce spending. Greece has no choice - it doesn't have the money and no one was willing to lend to them.

Let's not make this a British discussion. Austerity was a choice (and Osborne followed Darlings plan and is now cutting less than Labour promised to) against potential future debts. Greece did not chose to change spending plans for future concerns; they only had one option - reduce spending as your not getting the same levels of foreign support as in the past.

End of the day their asking Europe for money. No one is forcing austerity on then, they can chose to leave the Euro.

 

[Condom]

What i find strange is that all these EU ministers keep saying Greece was on its way with their reforms and things were going well until Syriza came knocking. Basically they are all blaming the new Greek government. Weird. They also keep mentioning lack of trust. I'm not sure whether they are referring to the current Greek government or the previous one

They are just salty because dirty socialists came into power, we can't have that of course

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

You do really that without saving the banks, you'd lose your own money?

Like all left wingers, when it comes to economics he believes there will always be someone else willing to pay the bills.

Spending other peoples money is their faith.

 

[Theonik]

That's no argument. Even if they go at it alone, that 320 billion € isn't going to magically disappear and they will still blame everything in the future on it.

This mess started back in the '90s when they weren't in the EU yet and they took no responsibility either.

A grexit isn't going to change irresponsible politicians into responsible ones.

An exit would come with an official default, not the defacto default Greece is facing. This allows Greece to rebuild in the meantime. The debt will have to be repaid but they will be in a better position to than continuing this madness.

"helped" was the official term.

And the point still stands, that Greece was never trying to change the narrative that the Eurogroup forces things on Greece instead of providing an own agenda for Greece's future.

Given negotiations occurred behind closed doors I'd like to know where you are getting this. There are two narratives here and it's obvious each side will choose the one that suits them.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

You do really that without saving the banks, you'd lose your own money as well?

Well, I for one am willing to sacrifice my overdraft for the greater good!

 

[Negotiator]

This mess started back in the '90s when they weren't in the EU yet and they took no responsibility either.

Wut?

 

[Nikodemos]

Wut?

He probably meant Eurozone.

 

[Vagabundo]

What a mess. Greece should focus on structure reforms. Now is the time to do it when everything is shit. Get a reform government in, get the books balanced. Keep trying to kick the debt down the road and when all the shit is a distant memory there will be a quiet debt write off.

Asking for one now just isn't going to happen. They will get one at some point, but really they need to get their shit in order. While doing the best to protect the most vulnerable.

I don't envy them.

Well, I for one am willing to sacrifice my overdraft for the greater good!

They'd sell on your debt to someone else. Your debt is their asset.

 

[Walshicus]

Like all left wingers, when it comes to economics he believes there will always be someone else willing to pay the bills.

Spending other peoples money is their faith.

And parasitic leaching from those in society who actually work (instead of money moving) is the dogma of the Right wing.

 

[Condom]

Like all left wingers, when it comes to economics he believes there will always be someone else willing to pay the bills.

Spending other peoples money is their faith.

GG man, if you want the discussion to go to the level of a toddler that is.

Anyway if you really knew economics you would know that the deposits can be saved without saving the banks themselves or if you do save the banks, you could negotiate to get more power over them. The way things are handled by conservatives and social-democrats right now is by being a free prostitute for the financial sector.

 

[Negotiator]

Btw, here's my take on it:

This is a deliberate plan to inflate Greece's debt. Greece will NEVER be able to repay its debt, especially now that they have to sell 50bn of public assets at fire sale prices.

Eventually Greece's debt will become a federal/EU debt, Eurobonds will be introduced, Greece will lose its sovereignty in a favor of a political/fiscal union and so they won't have to worry about their debt anymore. I can't find another logical explanation...

 

[Kathian]

Btw, here's my take on it:

This is a deliberate plan to inflate Greece's debt. Greece will NEVER be able to repay its debt, especially now that they have to sell 50bn of public assets at fire sale prices.

Eventually Greece's debt will become a federal/EU debt, Eurobonds will be introduced, Greece will lose its sovereignty in a favor of a political/fiscal union and so they won't have to worry about their debt anymore. I can't find another logical explanation...

This makes no sense. Its also not an artificial way to increase Greek debts. Greece is asking for further borrowing after all.