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Deleted member 231381
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Well, they have a lot of experience with German unifications at this point.
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Greece Agreement Reached
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Well, they have a lot of experience with German unifications at this point.
Frankfurter
Member
Hunger Games
Probably the same they did after the German unification to deal with the costs: introduce a special tax ("solidarity surcharge") for as long as it's necessary. Some politicians demand that the same is done to make the money Germany spent for doomed Euro bailout loans explicit.
Currently, that tax is 5.5% of income tax, corporate tax, and capital gains tax. (It started at 7,5%). Politicians suggest that if would make the bailout expenses explicit, it would have to rise to ~8%.
Fenderputty
Banned
Coriolanus
Banned
Wait.
Y'mean that the whole time that they were on the Deustche mark and pumping money into East Germany.... there was an amply visible tax that west germans had to pay to explicitly help the east?
Fml, and people wonder why it took the population so fucking long to warm up to the east. Twats, the lot of them.
Yes. We are still doing it. That here is a scan of the first row of my income tax overview on my last pay slip.
The amount of money I pay for that tax is explicit and visible to me every month, and it is ... not irrelevant.
Coriolanus
Banned
Hey, Pie. I'm starting to share your sentiment. Dear fucking god, talk about being purposefully obtuse.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
Btw a significant picture captured today
showing a greek fireman trying to put out the fire
showing a greek fireman trying to put out the fire
Capital inflows into Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland far exceeded the 4 percent of GDP guideline used by the IMF as a caution light of risks to stability. Stimulus spending is fine if it doesnt create a massive bubble, which this massive capital flow into Southern Europe did. It simply isnt realist (perhaps it is even impossible) for a nation to absorb that much aggregate demand and create actually useful aggregate supply. Also, the cheap bonds did a lot more harm than good because once investors realized that Greece and the rest of those nations were not as credit worthy as Germany, the money dried up and created the whole sovereign debt crisis.
Theonik
Member
Arguably both are necessary. Loan repayments limit the amount of stimulus that can be applied after all.
They still don't like them much.
Yes. We are still doing it. That here is a scan of the first row of my income tax overview on my last pay slip.
The amount of money I pay for that tax is explicit and visible to me every month, and it is ... not irrelevant.
That is really quite stupid. I think one of the reasons why you don't hear a peep about transfer payments in America is that barely anyone actually realizes that it is a thing, and most of the people who do realize it is a thing know that it is an essential part of a large, functioning economy.
Negotiator
Member
East Germans are Germans. Greeks are Greeks, so...
Depends who you ask, really.
Warning: This video includes Martin Sonneborn
But I get your point, I just wanted to post the video.
Frankfurter
Member
Once in a lifetime politicians decided to introduce a tax that is readily visible for all people, instead of hiding it as much as they can, and you call that stupid ^^
Actually, a relatively small fee on your payslip might even look more psychologically manageable than the billions of Euros that are being constantly mentioned in the news coverage of this crisis. Makes everything easier to grasp. It's not like the majority Germans are not willing to pay at all.
Haha, in this case they shouldnt have! I am quite sure if every New Yorker realized that they were massively subsidizing Mississippi there would either be some sort of movement to end it or just create more state/regional tension. I can hear it now.
New Yorker: "These morons are complaining about welfare and government spending, but my taxes are the only thing that is keeping this pathetic state afloat? Fuck that shit!
Mississippian: "Fuck those elitist New Yorkers! We are allowing you dipshits to stay competitive with a lower currency and are being exploited by the wealthier states! If there werent transfer payments, then it would be pointless for us to be in this stupid union! Secession soon.
Maybe I am pessimistic, but I don't have enough faith in people that most everyone will take the time to figure out why transfer payments are necessary.
One of the only positive outcomes of the US Civil War was to cement the primacy of the federal government once and for all.
Frankfurter
Member
That should be happening, actually. Make people in the Bible belt realize that their Republican leaders are nothing more but idiots, who preach water and drink wine (from California, for free). They should be asking their MPs why they take all that money from "socialist" states.
Negotiator
Member
USA is a superpower for a reason.
50 separate states a la Eurozone wouldn't grant them that prestigious status...
Maybe Europe needs its own Civil War to become unified.
Just the idea of transfer payments is 'socialist'. Rich states give to the poor states so that the United States economy can function. Well, at least republicans would consider it socialist.
Negotiator
Member
What about food stamps?
Many Republicans definitely consider that socialist, and thus bad as well
Coriolanus
Banned
Lawds, can you imagine if there was an explicit Food Stamp tax? gods
Gurgelhals
Member
I think, as in most cases, trying to educate the public is the more sensible choice than hiding this stuff. Of course it's difficult, but I believe that, in the long run, it's not only more beneficial but absolutely necessary for a democracy to work.
Case in point: Here in Switzerland we have these transfer payments as well, of course - both among the individual districts of a cantons (= states) as well as on a federal level between the cantons. Now, due to our political system, adjustments to the underlying law usually have to pass a referendum (in general, everything that matters has to pass a referendum). Now the funny thing is that it's only the politicians that are being total shitheads regarding this whole business, because it's a cheap way for them to score political points. The voting populace, however, usually passes every referendum that has to do with transfer payments with *very* sizable majorities (> 65% yes votes, in some cases even around 75% yes votes). So count me among the optimists here
Of course, all of this doesn't mean that the people from one canton do not hate the people from the neighbouring cantons and vice versa. That is still a given.
BILD knows its readers and launches the Schäuble hype train. The comments are... typisch BILD.
http://www.bild.de/politik/inland/w...sser-europaer-41838312.bild.html#ugc-41838310
The article itself is garbage. Stating what a great European Schäuble is and so on.
http://www.bild.de/politik/inland/w...sser-europaer-41838312.bild.html#ugc-41838310
The article itself is garbage. Stating what a great European Schäuble is and so on.
I think, as in most cases, trying to educate the public is the more sensible choice than hiding this stuff. Of course it's difficult, but I believe that, in the long run, it's not only more beneficial but absolutely necessary for a democracy to work.
Case in point: Here in Switzerland we have these transfer payments as well, of course - both among the individual districts of a cantons (= states) as well as on a federal level between the cantons. Now, due to our political system, adjustments to the underlying law usually have to pass a referendum (in general, everything that matters has to pass a referendum). Now the funny thing is that it's only the politicians that are being total shitheads regarding this whole business, because it's a cheap way for them to score political points. The voting populace, however, usually passes every referendum that has to do with transfer payments with *very* sizable majorities (> 65% yes votes, in some cases even around 75% yes votes). So count me among the optimists here
Of course, all of this doesn't mean that the people from one canton do not hate the people from the neighbouring cantons and vice versa. That is still a given.
Well, you guys are also able to have a shit load of guns in your country with a very low murder rate. The US on the other hand...
So maybe your optimism is warranted and so is my pessimism!
I have actually read up on something that might be a decent or partial explanation for this difference. Besides obvious shit like poverty, apparently knowing a second language provides some significant cognitive benefits and can help improve executive function. So yea, maybe the US murder rate will go down once we are all speaking Spanish as well as English! (This is probably more of an interesting explanation rather than an actual explanation.)
Austerity?
I really don't know, afaik this hasn't happened yet.
We're talking about America, right? States are left on their own and aren't allowed to declare bankruptcy nor do they have their own currency. The most recent example I can think of of a state in the US approaching insolvency was California.
California achieved a balanced budget recently by jacking up taxes and fees (including tuition) as high as they possibly could. So yes, austerity. An example of one of the tax increases was sales tax, which clocks in at 9% now in LA. Another example is sin taxes. Oh, and they jacked up the gas tax.
Theonik
Member
We already had 2 world wars. The second one gave birth to the EU. We need WWIII
Perfect example why I'm glad we don't have plebiscites on the federal level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KodXKcIT7E
Fenderputty
Banned
A united Europe would be quite a thing.
It'd be interesting, but I don't see how it could happen without a huge war. It's rare governments agree to merge without conflict.
It's sad that we've never been farther away from that, even though that was the final aim from the beginning,
"So now that the Big European War is under wraps and we decided upon founding the USE let's talk about some specifics. Left-hand-driving or right-hand-driving?"
"..."
"..."
WAR
No, that's where you are wrong. America is a single country, and they are a proud and patriotic country. They all know that rich states subsidise poor states and they are ok with it. That's what patriotism is, the act of giving up something for civic society.
Australia is the same. Canada is the same. In every single country around the world, money gets redistributed from the richer parts to the poorer parts. The problem here is that no one is a patriotic European.
I just had a closer look at today's vote in the German parliament, and I realized that one of the CDU MPs is named Cajus Julius Caesar. His oldest son and grand son have the same name. What the hell, lol...
I think this is basically accurate.
If Americans really didn't want rich states to subsidize poor states, they'd just use local government. California could probably pass single payer for California. Who needs Obamacare?
When we vote for federal government programs to help people, implicitly we're recognizing that people in Mississippi need help that we need to provide even if we don't live in Mississippi. (Think about how you react to the GOP saying that "state's rights" mean we should be block granting Medicare.)
I feel more European than German, lol.
If I were the son, I would have prayed so hard to get a daughter.
Machspeed007
Member
I feel more European than German, lol.
I too feel more European but to be fair, I also think that depends on how well your country is doing. If we didn't have the solid GDP growth that we have right now, the nationalistic side would have been more vocal. The same thing is happening in Greece and Spain to an extent I think, it's not that they don't feel Europeans, there is a psychological sense of frustration that the EU isn't doing enough to solve national economical issues. The thing is, I don't think that the EU can help without everybody ceding some sovereignty. That will become more evident in the Eurozone.
Schäuble said in an interview published in the current issue of Der Spiegel that he would resign if forced to act against his convictions. He admitted that he and Merkel have had some differences in opinion over the last weeks.
Machspeed007
Member
It's time for Varoufakis and Schäuble to team-up at Valve then. Realtime economic model in HL3 confirmed.
Well, he was there 42 years, it's time to say goodbye and join some corporation like everyone else. There are surely a lot of pleases were they could use his sharp tongue.
The UK has always been only there for their own benefits. You don't believe in the European project, that could benefit Europe as a whole and help us stay relevant in this fast evolving, globalised world. To this day the UK is entitled to many privileges, which is absolutely ridiculous. It can't be, that one country has more rights and less commitments than others. Yet you are the most vocal country, which never stops complaining. Can't wait for the UK to leave in 2017, tbh.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
England will vote out. Scotland will vote to stay in. Interesting times are ahead.
Would be really helpful is that referendum manages both to get scum like Cameron and Farage out of the Union and manages to split up the UK.
michaelius
Banned
Can we stop with the hilarous blame shifting ?
Noone forced them to falsify financial reports and noone forced them to take more debt that they can pay.
jakonovski
Member
Indeed, nobody else benefitted from this. Pay no attention to the Goldman Sachs behind the curtain.
Frankfurter
Member
Greece got into this, because they massively overspent in a period of low interest rates. Those low interest rates were caused by the adoption of the Euro, but that's a positive (lower borrowing costs), so I don't see how that could be a point to criticize the Euro(zone).
It's true that capital inflows were huge for countries like Spain, Greece etc. until roughly ~2008ish, but it's not like these countries didn't know that this is a bubble that will ultimately have to burst. But instead of trying to get control of the situation (in Spain by, for example, raising taxes on new homes), those countries just continued like there'll be no issue in the future. Obviously that resulted in higher wages, higher inflation rates and higher GDP growth rates (and levels) - until the bubble burst.
Good Job Bob
Member
Terrible agreement or Grexit? In today's poll for @EFSYNTAKTON 70% in #Greece say agreement vs 24% who want exit. http://t.co/OdhS1McL0T
Voting intention predicts Syriza reelected with significant majority. Conservatives 20 point behind them. #Greece http://t.co/hhCctEfKMN
Voting intention predicts Syriza reelected with significant majority. Conservatives 20 point behind them. #Greece http://t.co/hhCctEfKMN
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