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[Trey]

Condition cleansing is night and day between my warrior and my Ele.

You learn quickly what you can take as a warrior if you don't have anything to burn of the malaise. Luckily you're doing so much damage and hitting so many mobs that if you do get dropped, odds are good you'll rally.

 

[Kos Luftar]

nvm

 

[Levyne]

um...nevermind

 

[Retro]

^^^^^ Oh ho, what did I miss up there?

I imagine the community that pushes zerker meta is largely unconcerned with open world pve, guys.

Too bad they've got the community convinced it's the be-all-end-all stat distribution, because I'm sick of scraping PUGs off dungeon floors too.

 

[shysaursoft]

I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I find the zerk meta intrinsically very selfish: it's the type of setup where, unless *everyone* is in on it, it makes pugging far more prickly than it needs to be, and brings with it the same kind of mentality as WoW gearscore. It forces everyone into a role lockstep "eles must do this, or the zerk warriors die", etc.

I'm okay with people wanting to minmax their farming runs (because that's all it is), but that doesn't change that it's a very selfish setup when it gets used outside the strict control of a predefined setup.

Granted, when people do zerky stuff in private, with their own groups, yadda, LGF descriptions, it's fine. But like the Queensdale Train, I suspect it overflows into the general zeitgeist and does far more harm than good.

 

[xenoflux2113]

My single advice for anyone in zerk :

First you learn to do this :

After that you can do this

Its so true, I am in full zerker gear for my ele and dodging has become second nature because of this.

 

[Hawkian]

For warriors it's not all that much of a concern, especially if we're talking some sort of organized "meta" fractal group where other classes surely are going to be more capable of offering condition cleansing for the party. 18k HP and 16s heal cooldown witih full berserker armor, trinkets, and scholar runes... yikes. warriors have it good.

for a lot of other classes it can be a bit of a disaster if we're not talking about someone very skilled and especially equipped with advance knowledge of each encounter. the idea that zerker = best choice for a fresh 80 of any class has resulted in a number of unpleasant situations leading pugs in dungeons and more than once I've had to switch to a support build to keep our group uptime higher.

 

[Ashodin]

Still wobbling back and forth on my ley line build, I opted for Runes of Speed instead of Pack because I hate running so goddamn slow, and having to stack swiftness was just a chore while running around.

WTB more runes with 25% speed plz

Also, I'm slowly starting to piece together the backpiece, which is so much fun to contemplate and figure out what to get without a guide.

 

[Hawkian]

lol guardians and mesmers...

i'll probably end up going with runes of speed on a guard build too. at least they're not as ridiculous as traveler. on my mesmer I used centaur for a long time (with the cooldown from Mirror) but wound up replacing that build and just settling for focus 4, blink, using staff 2 backwards, and... being slow in general. Sucks!

 

[Ashodin]

I agree with Lump where it feels like you're just always slow once you're used to the speed. Plus Speed runes fit in with my concept of the build as well, Being that the Ley Line has imbued me with faster speed, more power, more healing, etc.

 

[Katoki]

Thief PvE is a joke with some content. Stealth works on players but the AI technically always knows where you are anyway. Then you have stuff that relies on other classes to help clear your coniditions because the content I went through yesterday was like two hits per second at about 1.5-2k per hit so I can see how the less dedicated folk call it insta-death.

I was forced to go d/d and put 6 points into the toughness tree for stacked healing in stealth because I'm so casual. Then the non-stealth builds are forced to spam sword 2 or wait on the condition clear signet where you hopefully have someone near so its not only a one condition clear per 24(?) seconds when traited.

 

[Zeroth]

lol guardians and mesmers...

i'll probably end up going with runes of speed on a guard build too. at least they're not as ridiculous as traveler. on my mesmer I used centaur for a long time (with the cooldown from Mirror) but wound up replacing that build and just settling for focus 4, blink, using staff 2 backwards, and... being slow in general. Sucks!

Guardians benefit from Traveler runes thanks to the extra boon duration. It's pretty awesome if you are running a "one for everything" armor like mine (Soldier).

 

[Retne]

For warriors it's not all that much of a concern, especially if we're talking some sort of organized "meta" fractal group where other classes surely are going to be more capable of offering condition cleansing for the party. 18k HP and 16s heal cooldown witih full berserker armor, trinkets, and scholar runes... yikes. warriors have it good.

for a lot of other classes it can be a bit of a disaster if we're not talking about someone very skilled and especially equipped with advance knowledge of each encounter. the idea that zerker = best choice for a fresh 80 of any class has resulted in a number of unpleasant situations leading pugs in dungeons and more than once I've had to switch to a support build to keep our group uptime higher.

A good pug shouldn't require a lot of uptime. I find that when a pug I'm in wipes it's because we have a condition guardian or it's CoE and we have a necro along for the ride so we're essentially 4 manning the dungeon from a dps perspective.

When it comes to dungeons having the extra health and toughness from Pvt gear isn't going to help you stay up much more than an extra hit longer than full zerk in my experience. The extra damage might actually help though. Especially the crit chance and crit damage.

I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I find the zerk meta intrinsically very selfish

The zerk meta is actually all about party buffs and helping out your party. It's part of the reason stacking is good. You're standing right on top of someone when they go down so all you have to do to get them up is to press F. It's why warriors always have a banner and usually run the elite banner so that the team gets buffs and the elite banner can be used as a quick revive.

I usually view people running substandard builds in dungeons to be selfish. They want to join a group that will clear a dungeon quickly but they want to run condition guardian, bring their necro, or run a fully ranged ranger. These builds provide 0 support and usually provide substandard damage. On top of it when you go ranged you can't really line of sight mobs into a good spot and you end up wiping easier than if you stayed stacked.

For example in SE1 if you don't stack that corner next to the little ramp on the first boss he'll dig into the ground and pop up and 1 shot someone. That move is pretty hard to time a dodge too as well since once he goes under the timing is different depending on distance.

This is all just my experience though. I run as many daily dungeons as the girlfriend will let me get away with and it's the experiences I've had. I've also noticed what you put in the LFG doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if I put 80s, Experienced, or Zerk I will get the random people that felt like running that path at that moment in time.

 

[Katoki]

Everyone is selfish. Those that want to stack and those who want to "play the game as intended" since it depends who you end up running into.

 

[Hawkian]

Guardians benefit from Traveler runes thanks to the extra boon duration. It's pretty awesome if you are running a "one for everything" armor like mine (Soldier).

traveler runes are awesome, I just meant ridiculous in terms of cost.

A good pug shouldn't require a lot of uptime. I find that when a pug I'm in wipes it's because we have a condition guardian or it's CoE and we have a necro along for the ride so we're essentially 4 manning the dungeon from a dps perspective.

When it comes to dungeons having the extra health and toughness from Pvt gear isn't going to help you stay up much more than an extra hit longer than full zerk in my experience. The extra damage might actually help though. Especially the crit chance and crit damage.

just depends on the class and you do no damage if you're dead. no way to ensure "good pugs" anyway. i don't know what your problem is with necros in particular either, I'd certainly rather have a competent one in my party for any dungeon including going up against alpha than someone who doesn't know their strengths.

The zerk meta is actually all about party buffs and helping out your party. It's part of the reason stacking is good. You're standing right on top of someone when they go down so all you have to do to get them up is to press F. It's why warriors always have a banner and usually run the elite banner so that the team gets buffs and the elite banner can be used as a quick revive.

I usually view people running substandard builds in dungeons to be selfish. They want to join a group that will clear a dungeon quickly but they want to run condition guardian, bring their necro, or run a fully ranged ranger. These builds provide 0 support and usually provide substandard damage. On top of it when you go ranged you can't really line of sight mobs into a good spot and you end up wiping easier than if you stayed stacked.

you're entitled to your opinion and luckily the game allows both of us to succeed. by "good" you mean easy and efficient I'm sure, but I think stacking sucks and it bores me to tears. I have no interest in completely maxing out efficiency and speed if the process isn't fun for me and if the reason I have experienced so many wipes and near-wipes in pug groups that are stacking for everything is because they aren't all wearing full zerker gear or we don't have warriors with battle standard then I'd prefer not to stack rather than have people change their gear or class.

For example in SE1 if you don't stack that corner next to the little ramp on the first boss he'll dig into the ground and pop up and 1 shot someone. That move is pretty hard to time a dodge too as well since once he goes under the timing is different depending on distance.

yeah, you're meant to learn the timing and dodge it and res people who can't. is that not a "for example" of subverting the concept of actually learning to play? stacking in a certain spot to prevent him from being able to do that is so razor-thin close to being an exploit that it actually makes me uncomfortable to consider it the "standard."

I've also noticed what you put in the LFG doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if I put 80s, Experienced, or Zerk I will get the random people that felt like running that path at that moment in time.

Huh. Well that sucks. I guess it works better the other way around

 

[Ashodin]

One of the reasons why GAFGuild is awesome is because we don't really enforce or care about efficiency or group comp or stacking. People only do if they want, but we don't make people do it.

 

[hockeypuck]

Why is the second G capitalized in GAFGuild? Doesn't look right. And while we're at it, isn't there supposed to be a hyphen in our guild name, i.e., Gaming-Age Force? I demand answers.

 

[Hawkian]

technically it should be written g@-Fgu1ld

 

[Ashodin]

Why is the second G capitalized in GAFGuild? Doesn't look right. And while we're at it, isn't there supposed to be a hyphen in our guild name, i.e., Gaming-Age Force? I demand answers.

GAFGuild.com is the reason for your first, and the second is because we said so.

 

[UltimateIke]

Sometimes I run full Berserker in Fractals, and sometimes I use Soldier armor. It depends on the situation.

There's no reason to wear Soldier at something like the Molten Boss Fractal, for example. Zerk away. But, alternatively, there is stuff like the Elemental at the Snowblind Fractal which can't be critically hit, so there is no reason to have a ton of Precision/Ferocity, and the extra Vitality and Toughness is appreciated.


But I never have condition removal in either case. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Ashodin]

Run speed increase: 5% normally, 33% during sandstorms. It stacks with Swiftness but you can only use utility swiftness skills since your weapon skills are blocked while using the kite.

Gotta get dem kites

 

[Retne]

traveler runes are awesome, I just meant ridiculous in terms of cost.

just depends on the class and you do no damage if you're dead. no way to ensure "good pugs" anyway. i don't know what your problem is with necros in particular either, I'd certainly rather have a competent one in my party for any dungeon including going up against alpha than someone who doesn't know their strengths.

you're entitled to your opinion and luckily the game allows both of us to succeed. by "good" you mean easy and efficient I'm sure, but I think stacking sucks and it bores me to tears. I have no interest in completely maxing out efficiency and speed if the process isn't fun for me and if the reason I have experienced so many wipes and near-wipes in pug groups that are stacking for everything is because they aren't all wearing full zerker gear or we don't have warriors with battle standard then I'd prefer not to stack rather than have people change their gear or class.

yeah, you're meant to learn the timing and dodge it and res people who can't. is that not a "for example" of subverting the concept of actually learning to play? stacking in a certain spot to prevent him from being able to do that is so razor-thin close to being an exploit that it actually makes me uncomfortable to consider it the "standard."

Huh. Well that sucks. I guess it works better the other way around

Yeah I get a lot of enjoyment from speed clearing dungeons. It's one of the aspects of the game I've gotten into. So my point of view is coming from that angle.

The only real problem I have with necros is are they have no cleave and provide little to no party support. Personally I think it sucks since I love the aesthetic I just wish my necro was more viable than it is. It was my first 80 and still holds a special place in my heart but I rarely end up playing it.


EDIT: Sorry I was on mobile.

"is that not a "for example" of subverting the concept of actually learning to play?"

So the dev's way is the only viable way to play the game? If it was an exploit they would have patched it out by now or nerfed it in some way. Killing the boss the quickest and easiest way possible ensures success and maximizes damage. If you want to do it a harder way that's fine. It's just not the way I prefer to do it.

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah I get a lot of enjoyment from speed clearing dungeons. It's one of the aspects of the game I've gotten into. So my point of view is coming from that angle.

The only real problem I have with necros is are they have no cleave and provide little to no party support. Personally I think it sucks since I love the aesthetic I just wish my necro was more viable than it is. It was my first 80 and still holds a special place in my heart but I rarely end up playing it.

Viable in your personal point of view, you mean.

 

[Retne]

Viable in your personal point of view, you mean.

Obviously. I can hardly speak for anyone but myself.

 

[shysaursoft]

I usually view people running substandard builds in dungeons to be selfish. .

Why is non-Zerker considered sub standard? Because it has lower damage numbers? Meanwhile, you have four warriors all running the meta zerk build, with zero condi clears - leaving it up to whoever isn't running the standard to cover their asses.

Efficient does not equal optimal, or what should be considered the standard. But again, when dealing with a pre-organized five man designed from the ground up to farm a dungeon via speedclears, sure. But I'm talking about general play, about the community, about seeing all the dead zerkers in PvE, and the ragequitting zerkers in dungeon pugs because they all wiped at Spider Queen.

I think the zerk meta is, in the long term, harmful - but I'm not saying people should stop running zerk. I think the onus is on ArenaNet to up their game and design better content that makes stacking cheese tactics and "kill it before it kills us so we don't have to bother learning how to fight it right" impossible.

But that's me. I'm coming from a "I finished Bayonetta on Infinite Climax difficulty" viewpoint - where the point of the game isn't to farm for shinies, but to play. I realize people have different reasons for playing: some only care about the shines, some care only about getting money, some only care about getting through everything as fast as possible so they can be "done" with it, and so on. And that's all fine. I guess I just find it a pity, because it is, to me, ignoring the entire point of what a video game is.

I dunno, my thinking on this is fuzzy at the moment.

 

[Mxrz]

Zerk guardian, rarely dodge, rarely need to. I have to remind myself to dodge cause of Elusive power. (I refuse to give up condition removal on shouts, way too useful in my groups.)

Pugs are going to do as little as possible. So they'll grab zerk stats and sit on it. Its rare to see anyone using slayer potions or food in groups anymore, and those are the single biggest dps boosts around.

Dig my elementalist in WvW more lately, but season 2 reminded me it certainly does not carry over to PvE. By the time I made it through Episode 2, I had three broke armor pieces.

Why is non-Zerker considered sub standard? Because it has lower damage numbers? Meanwhile, you have four warriors all running the meta zerk build, with zero condi clears - leaving it up to whoever isn't running the standard to cover their asses.

Comboing off a light field with whirls usually takes care of most conditions.

Like whathisface cant-AoE-death-bomb-cause-lolstack-midboss-SE3-dredge. Running it on my warrior, saw more than a few pug groups drop due to little condition removal. On my guardian, not sure I've seen a group wipe to the bleed with the field-combos.

 

[Retne]

Why is non-Zerker considered sub standard? Because it has lower damage numbers? Meanwhile, you have four warriors all running the meta zerk build, with zero condi clears - leaving it up to whoever isn't running the standard to cover their asses.

If they're using that build to a T and not adapting to their situation then they are playing inefficiently. Just like running non-zerk gear is less than efficient. The idea is to mitigate the damage through dodging, placement, and line of sight.

But that's me. I'm coming from a "I finished Bayonetta on Infinite Climax difficulty" viewpoint - where the point of the game isn't to farm for shinies, but to play. I realize people have different reasons for playing: some only care about the shines, some care only about getting money, some only care about getting through everything as fast as possible so they can be "done" with it, and so on. And that's all fine. I guess I just find it a pity, because it is, to me, ignoring the entire point of what a video game is.

I can understand that viewpoint but the challenge I look for in a dungeon is to get a fast clear. It's not even necessarily to be done with it so much as to get a good time on the track. I look at dungeons more like trackmania tracks. I look for shortcuts and tricks that will get my clear time down. Smelling the roses is what I like to do outside of the dungeons.

 

[shysaursoft]

If they're using that build to a T and not adapting to their situation then they are playing inefficiently. Just like running non-zerk gear is less than efficient. The idea is to mitigate the damage through dodging, placement, and line of sight.

I considered stacking in a corner during dungeons to LoS bosses and completely break their designed mechanics, a cheap farming strat done by people more interested in getting the reward, than actually playing the game.

*oldmangrump*

And yes, I know how to speedclear and run zerk and dodge and all that. I did it for a while myself. And that's why I think it's not good for the game, or the community, if it becomes too widespread an idea that "stacking and zerk = only way to play". But I'm not going to convince farmers otherwise, I know.

EDIT:

You do make a valid point about speedclearing dungeons as a "time trials" paradigm. But personally, for people who want that, I think there should be properly designed content for that express purpose, but that doesn't allow cheap tactics like skipping and stacking.

 

[Ashodin]

If they're using that build to a T and not adapting to their situation then they are playing inefficiently. Just like running non-zerk gear is less than efficient. The idea is to mitigate the damage through dodging, placement, and line of sight.



I can understand that viewpoint but the challenge I look for in a dungeon is to get a fast clear. It's not even necessarily to be done with it so much as to get a good time on the track. I look at dungeons more like trackmania tracks. I look for shortcuts and tricks that will get my clear time down. Smelling the roses is what I like to do outside of the dungeons.

I can see how this might be appealing to some, but damned if that doesn't sound absolutely boring haha

 

[Taffer]

At first I was miffed about not liking necro in CoE (best dungeon) but then he mentioned the lack of handy party support and realised I've been leaning that way myself lately - enough to consider making an ascended heavy set to take my war or guard into fractals instead.

 

[Moondrop]

I plan to respec my warrior into a defensive support Hammer/Mace+Shield Warrior just to piss off Zerkers.

Come on in; the water's fine. But actually you're likely to have the opposite effect- you'll cover up their zerky mistakes with heals and condi cleanses, and they'll think they're even better than they are. But I'm fine running Cleric's in PvE because I'll trade going X% slower hitting the HP bag for nearly guaranteeing zero wipes.

Also warriors have amazing personal condition removal with Cleansing Ire alone. It's the best warrior trait by a comfortable margin, and if it doesn't fit in the PvE meta build then that's shameful.

 

[spiritfox]

When I'm doing dungeons as my War I'm doing it for the rewards, not to see the sights. I've done AC too many times to count, I don't want to stop and smell the gravelings or whatever's inside. Zerk and stacking is just a way to get through it as fast as possible so I can go on to do other more interesting stuff. I do run Shake It Off though, so I'm not part of your perceived meta.

Also, I don't use my War outside of dungeons cause she's specifically built for dungeons only.

 

[Hawkian]

necros could use some handy fire fields. you've done great in CoE though <3

When I'm doing dungeons as my War I'm doing it for the rewards, not to see the sights. I've done AC too many times to count, I don't want to stop and smell the gravelings or whatever's inside. Zerk and stacking is just a way to get through it as fast as possible so I can go on to do other more interesting stuff. I do run Shake It Off though, so I'm not part of your perceived meta.

I run dungeons very quickly too. it's not about enjoying the sights and sounds and moving at a leisurely pace. stacking just eliminates almost all of the appeal of guild wars 2's dynamic combat system which I very much enjoy.

there is a simple disconnect though because there isn't anything in the game I would do that I just want to get through as fast as possible to move onto other things... Well, something that fit that description is something I'd do once if it was novel, but never repeat.

 

[shysaursoft]

When I'm doing dungeons as my War I'm doing it for the rewards, not to see the sights.

Just call it what it is. You're farming.

 

[Levyne]

I like running zerk whether the group is stacking or not, just how I want to play.

You could also argue that for Rangers, unlike something like a guard, the less damage you do the more replaceable you are.

 

[shysaursoft]

Welp, Celestial Engineer Master Racer 4 eva, so there.

 

[Hawkian]

I like running zerk whether the group is stacking or not, just how I want to play.

In most PvE settings involving a group zerker gear is objectively a good choice if you can stay alive. You are very skilled, so it's a good choice in effect as well.

You could also argue that for Rangers, unlike something like a guard, the less damage you do the more replaceable you are.

Aw.

 

[Trey]

Full scholar zerk ele and Warrior, both with backup Knights for WvW.

 

[Hawkian]

Yeah, I guess I'm not good enough with Ele, I feel way too squishy to run full zerk even on my damage build I do a split. Knights is a great choice for WvW

edit: scholar runes are all min-max optimal and everything but sooooo boring

 

[Moondrop]

I run zerk staff ele and I love how survival is it's own mini-game. But I don't do it for PvE reasons; I do it to drop brutal tomato storms on zergs in WvW.

 

[spiritfox]

Just call it what it is. You're farming.

Well I see no crops

Since I have limited time to play daily I want to play as efficiently as possible. Less time spent on farming means more time doing fun stuff like spamming ARAH in chat.

 

[Hawkian]

I run zerk staff ele and I love how survival is it's own mini-game. But I don't do it for PvE reasons; I do it to drop brutal tomato storms on zergs in WvW.

I must know more about this tomato storm

Well I see no crops

Since I have limited time to play daily I want to play as efficiently as possible. Less time spent on farming means more time doing fun stuff like spamming ARAH in chat.

yeah, I just wanted to say, this is a very reasonable point of view. it might not be how I want to play but I'm glad we can coexist in the same gameworld and guild.

 

[shysaursoft]

Well I see no crops

Since I have limited time to play daily I want to play as efficiently as possible. Less time spent on farming means more time doing fun stuff like spamming ARAH in chat.

So what happens if one day, they fix all skips, and figure out a way to prevent all stacking?

 

[Ashodin]

OMG NEW BUILD IN 10

 

[Hawkian]

So what happens if one day, they fix all skips, and figure out a way to prevent all stacking?

people will find the quickest way to complete paths with those limitations of course

 

[spiritfox]

So what happens if one day, they fix all skips, and figure out a way to prevent all stacking?

Then we die or bow down to our new golem overlords.

Or just farm without stacking. It's there, it'll be silly to not use it if it saves time and/or frustration. I do run dungeons without stacking too, especially with gaffers. But when the PUG group wants to stack, I'm not going to stop them.

 

[Trey]

people will find the quickest way to complete paths with those limitations of course

Until DYNAMIC AI (tm)!

 

[shysaursoft]

 

[Levyne]

AKA we must find out what they stealth nerfed

 

[Ashodin]

The economy that's growing out of the new backpiece is fucking awesome. crafting mats that are rare and worth every penny. Get dem Foxfires!