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Guild Wars 2 |OT4| The only subscription you need is this thread.

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hythloday

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After Mordremoth, I hope we take a break from dragons. The other two regions already have compelling antagonists that, I feel, should not be leashed to a dragon. Cantha have the Ministry and Elonia have Joko.

Exactly!! If we keep going after the dragons, over the years it will turn into "Well, another expansion is coming out, which dragon is it this time?" Then we'll run out of dragons and it will be either time for Guild Wars 3 or they'll do what EQ did and release a new continent that somehow nobody's heard of that is filled with bad guys that are more powerful than the OTHER bad guys that we THOUGHT were the most powerful, but aren't because... we said so.

I really like the current Mordremoth storyline, but my hunch is that the Order of Whispers is right and we should be trying to put the dragons back to sleep, not kill them.
 
The Priory thinks they're roughly timed (at least according to the Wiki), and that devouring all of the magic before going back to sleep is just a side effect of their regular behavior. But we know that's not entirely accurate because Scarlet was able to awaken Mordremoth by directing Ley Line energy towards it. If it were simply a set time period, redirecting the ley line wouldn't have had any impact.

My thinking is that "magic" is just like any other energy and cannot be created or destroyed. When the Elder Dragons devour all the magic, they aren't destroying it, only storing it. We know that they act like magic batteries because when the Human Gods first arrived on Tyria, they arrived and settled in Orr specifically because Zhaitan was giving off so much magic via The Artesian Waters (they actually had no idea about Zhaitan, see first paragraph here).

The Priory theory could still be true actually because the 10,000 years have passed, which started the process of the Dragons awakening. Are we sure she re-directed Ley Line energy to Mordremoth? I thought that she converged the strongest points to send surge through an existing path. Since the process of the Dragons awakening had already started, she didn't wake Mothy out of turn or out of sync with the presumed 10k year timer but instead startled him awake about 40 years early (it's said once one Dragon starts to waken, the others wake up one at a time, about 50 years apart from each other).

It's definitely supported that the Dragons are only storing magic but what is the purpose of that? Assuming the Dragons are a construct of either Nature or a Greater Force, the cycle of eating and releasing should serve some purpose or other. It can't be to keep Intelligent Races from using magic, otherwise they wouldn't leak it back into the world.

The game is ambiguous about the difference between "magic energy" and "dragon energy", but there are implications that they're distinct types. I think Dragon energy is what seeps out of the Elder Dragons and back into the world as they sleep, while Magic energy is what seeps back in from overuse. That is, as the intelligent races are using magic, it saturates the planet until so much of it is flowing beneath the surface that it awakens the dragons.

This theory is sound but I just don't think there's enough to support it. The recent awakening of the Dragons happening to hit 10,000 years after the previous awakening, along with their individual waking pattern being 50 years apart just seems too... neat to be coincidence. While we can't definitively say 10,000 years is consistent, the Dwarven knowledge should be able to dispel or reinforce the 50 year separations.

There was no imbalance to wake the dragons after the races re-emerged because they freely gave it up and allowed the Seers to contain all of the "untainted' magic in the Bloodstone. The problem is that the Mursaat refused to give theirs up and instead used their magic to 'phase out' of the world.

Of those surviving races, only the Dwarves and maybe (the wiki is fuzzy) the Forgotten managed to re-establish themselves. The Seers were wiped out by the Mursaat (who then 'left' Tyria) and the Jotun eventually lost their spellcrafting ability due to infighting. The remaining races simply weren't using enough magic to wake the dragons immediately again.

You make a good point here. I'm going to have to mull this over for awhile I think. My only question at the moment would then be.. why did it take so long for the Dragons to awaken after the Human Gods gifted Magic to the Intelligent races again? The magic was used so much at one point that the Gods took the Bloodstone back and split it. But I'd have to look into specific dates to warrant the question really.


We can guess that Zhaitan was more powerful than the other dragons because the Human Gods were drawn into Tyria from the Mists at The Artesian Waters, rather than anywhere else that the dragons slept. That implies that the dragons do not distribute the magic equally, and that there is a 'winner' each time the Elder Dragons awaken.

I do not believe that the dragons re-absorb energy if one of them is killed off, but it does mean that there is less competition so the remaining dragons do grow stronger. If my theory on dragon energy / magic energy is right, it would mean that the defeated dragon is simply leaking dragon energy (which the dragons do not eat) into the world.

It does raise an interesting question though; was there ever a point where the Elder Dragons went to war with each other? It seems clear that they don't directly fight (at least not that we've seen) and their minions do not appear to be able to corrupt each other (see the Sylvari being resistant to the Risen).

If Dragon Energy and Magic Energy are different as you theorized, it still doesn't prevent remaining Dragon's from benefiting as the released Dragon Energy gets converted to Magic Energy at some point by the Intelligent races.. which according to your theory would then saturate the Earth, etc..

There doesn't seem to be any point where even the Dragon's minions overlap (even when relatively close to each other), so what would happen if they did is certainly something I'd love to know. Being opposite polarities would suggest a near stalemate. With Zhaitan gone now and Mordremoth not having a diagonal with which to be opposite, would that make him unstoppable if such a thing were to occur?
 
We're 2 years in with only one dragon dead.

I was hoping for the big reveal to start out another dragon saga, since 6 months of Mordremoth and Mordrem is plenty enough for me.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Exactly!! If we keep going after the dragons, over the years it will turn into "Well, another expansion is coming out, which dragon is it this time?" Then we'll run out of dragons and it will be either time for Guild Wars 3 or they'll do what EQ did and release a new continent that somehow nobody's heard of that is filled with bad guys that are more powerful than the OTHER bad guys that we THOUGHT were the most powerful, but aren't because... we said so.

I really like the current Mordremoth storyline, but my hunch is that the Order of Whispers is right and we should be trying to put the dragons back to sleep, not kill them.
Perhaps the
baby dragon will make cooing noises and make mordemoth go aawwww
 

Mxrz

Member
The (human) Gods disappearing still doesn't make much sense. Dwayna leaving, and taking Divine Magic (mostly) with her, sure. But the rest? What. If it was cause of the dragons they really haven't touched on it. All the other magical spheres are still fine too, even stronger in some cases.

The cosmology has always been a bit fuzzy. There were hints of higher powers, and other gods, in the realm of torment but it was vague. Then you got the dimensional stuff with the Mursaat and the seers, too. There's a lot of things they could explore.

Rytlock got changed in the Mist (yes?) so they have to touch on it a little. Just seems like there's some stuff happening around the whole Elder Dragon issue.
 

hythloday

Member
SMH at people getting tired of Mordremoth already

We haven't even seen all of Maguuma yet!

Nobody's said they're tired of Mordremoth that I saw! EDIT: OK Forerunner did but who else!

Perhaps the
baby dragon will make cooing noises and make mordemoth go aawwww

awwww and maybe it will burp little baby dragon crystals too! Now I want a baby Glint Jr. plushie. I'd set it next to my official Quaggan plushie. IF I HAD ONE. /glare at Anet
 

Retro

Member
I still think fighting Zhaitan face-to-face was a huge narrative mistake. Elder Dragons are described as forces of nature, like a hurricane or tornado. If we even register as ants to a hurricane that would still be incredibly generous. Apart from issues with the final fight (aka: shoot glitter at the dragon until it falls down), I don't know how they could have ended things other than to say "We didn't kill Zhatain, we just exhausted it until it fell back asleep," and that probably wouldn't have been very satisfying. For what it's worth, I still hold on to the belief that Zhaitan isn't actually dead though. There's no body, just a severed tail in the Priory Basement.

Hythloday gave a great example of how EQ worked, and I know my experience with WoW was much the same; there's either someone slightly more powerful just around the corner, or the bad guy escapes only to return so many times it becomes a running joke. To avoid that villain-of-the-week scenario, it's important for the game's story to look beyond the immediate threat of the dragons.

Joko is a decent hook because he's someone who isn't as potentially dangerous as an Elder Dragon but is still a huge threat (and one that the player characters created in GW1). We have to wonder what other forces are out there that might take advantage of the Elder Dragons. The White Mantle/Mursaat (or what's left of them) seems like a full-blown conclusion at this point. Who knows what 250 years has done to Cantha. And there's always the potential that other factions may arise out in the unknown, or there's elements to the Elder Dragons that we haven't seen yet.

The potential is there for all sorts of interesting story hooks, it's all about the execution. For example, people reacted negatively to Scarlet because her pattern was too random and she seemed to have no connection to the overarching story (A lot of reddit comments basically went "Why are we wasting time fighting her when there are dragons to slay?"). I chalk it up to ArenaNet learning how to tell a narrative at such a pace, allowing for the build up of tension and giving the community time to formulate their theories while moving things along fast enough that events don't feel like isolated incidents. Season Two has shown they've learned a lot but there's still room for improvement (the constant cliffhangers with no payoff were a bit too much).
 

Lunar15

Member
I think it's fine fighting the dragons face to face, but it definitely feels like they're setting up the Eternal Alchemy as a much different issue than just "oh the dragons are attacking". This is a good thing. They can now look to pursue other storylines without it feeling like "why are we doing this instead of taking care of dragons?"

I still think Anise is up to something, but maybe that's just me.
 
SMH at people getting tired of Mordremoth already

We haven't even seen all of Maguuma yet!

It's not about being tired, but Zaithan is a shitty fight, Teq, Jorlag, and Shitterer ain't great, i don't foresee Salad Dragon being a big step up from the other dragons, to make Mordremoth an awesome fight i think we should fight Sylvari who is infused with 50% of Mordremoth powers, this Sylvari would be Mordremoth's rage, every 25% Sylvari come out, attack speed is 100%,no CD's on skills, using daggers and GS, 100 blades covers a large zone, Anet give me 2 hours and I would make Salad Dragon the best fight in the game.. Also i would have Mordremoth rage pop in and out during those 25% to one hit down (backstab) the lowest HP player...also just to spice things up Rage would look like Trahearne...
 
It's not about being tired, but Zaithan is a shitty fight, Teq, Jorlag, and Shitterer ain't great, i don't foresee Salad Dragon being a big step up from the other dragons

You do realize Zhaitan is the *only* dragon we've fought, while he was weak and half-dead already?

The others are minions. They are not dragons.
 
You do realize Zhaitan is the *only* dragon we've fought, while he was weak and half-dead already?

The others are minions. They are not dragons.

I know this, i have known this for ages, still don't foresee much changing in terms of the actual fight, it's a big fucking dragon we gonna attack his claws and head with some big ass mega laser helping us..

PS: i believe there will be new elements, but we still gonna do some old shit we been doing.
 

Emitan

Member
It's a problem that's inherent to the game itself, not just that fight. Anet should really tone down on all the particles, especially Guards and their glowy fire everywhere.

Yeah it can be bad even in a 5 person party.

ALSO I MAIN GUARD SO THE FIRE IS ALWAYS THERE :(
 
Managed to rush complete episodes 5-8 in about 4 days between work and fussy baby.

I think pretty much everyone called the Salad-morty connection months ago, but its nice to have a confirmation.

I'm guessing the syvari we see turn on the pact were soundless, who must have some special susceptibility to the dragons influence. Having one of the major player races treated like an enemy could make for some interesting storytelling next season or in the expac.

Interested to see how this goes, can't wait for the pax panel and GW 2 party.
 
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t1422117000z2.png
 

Retro

Member
The Priory theory could still be true actually because the 10,000 years have passed, which started the process of the Dragons awakening. Are we sure she re-directed Ley Line energy to Mordremoth? I thought that she converged the strongest points to send surge through an existing path. Since the process of the Dragons awakening had already started, she didn't wake Mothy out of turn or out of sync with the presumed 10k year timer but instead startled him awake about 40 years early (it's said once one Dragon starts to waken, the others wake up one at a time, about 50 years apart from each other).

The "every 10,000 years" theory is based on the Jotun's observation of the stars (as explained Arah path 1). The idea is that the ancient Jotun tracked the passage of time and recorded what stars were present when the Elder Dragons appear. From that, the Priory NPC in Arah assumes that the dragon awakenings are natural and cyclical. The weird thing is, we know the cycle can be both spend up and delayed. Primordus was supposed to awaken during the events of Eye of the North, but the players were able to delay it by 42 years. Likewise, Scarlet was able to wake Mordremoth early by about 40 years. If no one had interfered with Primordus and the number of years between each awakening remained the same, the timeline would have theoretically been;

1078 - Primordus (actually awakened in 1120)
1123 - Jormag (1165)
1177 - Zhaitan (1219)
1228 - Deep Sea Dragon (wiki gives the approximate date as 1270)
1278 - Kralkatorik (1320)

That means that if things had been allowed to proceed as nature intended, Mordremoth should have awoken around 1328, which is actually the present day in Guild Wars 2... and there would be stars in the sky indicating that the Elder Dragons have returned. And surprise; players have discovered this has just happened).

For Primordus to be delayed and Mordremoth awakened early in such a way as to sync up implies either a greater force at work guiding things along, crazy dumb luck, or the stars aren't naturally occurring but instead are tied specifically to the state of the elder dragons (hey, it's a fantasy game, anything can happen).

Also, if the dragons were on a naturally occurring cycle, Jormag should have awoken ~50 years after EotN. Instead, he woke up 87 years later; if they were on a 50 year cycle, then Jormag would have awoken about 10 years after Primordus instead of 45 years after. So Primordus is either the trigger for the other dragons to awaken or the 50 year cycle is just sort of a coincidence.

Neither of those really poke holes in the theory, but it does raise some interesting questions.

It's definitely supported that the Dragons are only storing magic but what is the purpose of that? Assuming the Dragons are a construct of either Nature or a Greater Force, the cycle of eating and releasing should serve some purpose or other. It can't be to keep Intelligent Races from using magic, otherwise they wouldn't leak it back into the world.

Not a clue. It could just be what keeps the world spinning or nature in harmony, like the spinning molten core of the earth or deep sea currents. Why the Elder Dragons exist at all is a deeper, older question than even "What were the Human Gods" and that's still a big question mark.

You make a good point here. I'm going to have to mull this over for awhile I think. My only question at the moment would then be.. why did it take so long for the Dragons to awaken after the Human Gods gifted Magic to the Intelligent races again? The magic was used so much at one point that the Gods took the Bloodstone back and split it. But I'd have to look into specific dates to warrant the question really.

If magic was as "wild" and rampant as it's described by the Jotun, then the amount of magic the Human Gods were dumping back into the ecosystem probably wasn't as huge as it seems.

I still think Anise is up to something, but maybe that's just me.

Anise = Livia. The hints all point in that direction.
 

Emitan

Member
Is there any reason we don't know the deep sea dragon's name? Seems weird we know the others. Did we know Mordremoth's name at launch? I can't remember.
 

Jira

Member
Is there any reason we don't know the deep sea dragon's name? Seems weird we know the others. Did we know Mordremoth's name at launch? I can't remember.

ANet called it Bubbles, with some recent imagery, it now starts with an S so the community has named him Steve.
 

Retro

Member
Did we know Mordremoth's name at launch? I can't remember.

Nope, Mordremoth's name was discovered by looking at Subject Alpha's attacks in CoE. He uses an attack called "Teeth of Mordremoth" that was showing up in the combat log. I believe Colin later confirmed in an interview that it was the Jungle Dragon's name.
 

Mxrz

Member
Anise = Livia. The hints all point in that direction.

In Wooden potatoes latest video he mentioned Devs saying Livia didn't hold onto the staff of Orr but gave it to someone. (E=Evennia, which would be weird imo.) Never heard that before, but disappointing if true. No Livia-Lich.
 

Retro

Member
In Wooden potatoes latest video he mentioned Devs saying Livia didn't hold onto the staff of Orr but gave it to someone. (E=Evennia, which would be weird imo.) Never heard that before, but disappointing if true. No Livia-Lich.

She still lived an incredibly long time though, since she appeared in both Guild Wars 1 and Sea of Sorrows which were at least a hundred years apart.
 

Emitan

Member
ANet called it Bubbles, with some recent imagery, it now starts with an S so the community has named him Steve.

Seems so weird that they revealed only the first letter. Sure it was on a ceiling texture and not an official reveal, but still strange.
 
I doubt we're going to either of those. Elona, someday maybe. But Cantha was more or less written out of existence.

Imagine we won't straight up fight all the dragons. There'll be some twists and turns. The story might lean heavily towards them being a necessary part of the world, so we put them to sleep or some such.

That is so incredible depressing if that is true. That is the place I want to go to. Cantha and the Jade Sea was the most inspired thing, ArenaNet have ever done! Ever!



Granted, you might suggest that Elona is much more impressive given that middle-eastern and north African folklore is completely absent in most games, and popculture in general. It's immensely impressive, and yet depressing, that there is nothing else besides Prince of Persia that deals with any of those sources.
But I feel, Cantha was a take on Asian mythology and folklore, in a way no western developers have managed. If you look at Jade Empire, which is really cool, it feels so close to the sources of Chinese mythology that it might as well have had been a Journey to the West story.


Cantha just had it all.
On top of that, Bubbles is the most mysterious and interesting one out of all of them!
 
Well that is interesting.

Double XP for my elementalist is neat too.

Edit: and no we don't need a thread yet. May as well wait til Saturday for thread makin'
Edit 2: too late heh. I just figured we would wait and make a combined twitch announcement/game is cheap thing.

oops.
 
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